Staking Bolt-Carrier Key Screws?--FOLLOW-UP PICS ADDED!!! [Archive]

blackscot

04-26-07, 08:53

Please excuse if this is covered elsewhere, and just steer me to the appropriate thread.

New M&P began short stroking after the first ~150 rounds, which I eventually found to be because the bolt-carrier key had loosened. The key screws had stake marks from the factory, but which obviously didn't hold. A firm twist on each screw was able to seat them about a 16th of a turn deeper than where they had originally been staked. Another 120 rounds were then shot w/o further problem.

The key screws are still holding as re-tightened, but should I re-stake them as well? If so, how?

I'd like this to be a fix-it-n-fergit-it scenario - thanks.

striped1

04-26-07, 09:12

You are in need of the MOACKS.

http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php

this will do it in short order.

C4IGrant

04-26-07, 09:20

rob_s

04-26-07, 09:32

Do you mind if I bookmark this thread so that I can direct people to it when they tell me that their half-ass gas key staking is "good enough"?

(nevermind, they'll just think I made it all up just to prove a point)

blackscot

04-26-07, 09:51

You are in need of the MOACKS......

$70 for the "pocket" model, and $155 for the full-magnum -- CHING-CHING ! ! !:eek:

A quality tool I'm sure, but seems like a lot to a poor guy for something that shouldn't be a problem in the first place. Can I be a basic shooter without become a cutting-edge gunsmith?

......I do it for a small fee + shipping back if interested......

That seems more do-able -- assuming I opt-out of trying to get S&W to do The-Right-Thing (and not make me wait a year for it.......yeah,right.......).

I may be in contact with you Grant.

TOrrock

04-26-07, 10:00

Randy, I'm going up to visit GotM4 at VA Arms to do some business and hang out.

I'm taking two BCG's to get restaked, if you want I'll take your's as well.

Mine were actually military surplus M16A1's that are MP tested, but the staking job looks like it was done by a blind one armed man......:(

Mark/MO

04-26-07, 18:03

I can recommend having Grant restake your carrier. He did my M&P15 bolt carrier shortly after I got the gun. My carrier originally appeared to be staked with a chisel or something. Looked correct after Grant was done with it and it runs great. To be honest I did not have any problems before restaking as you did but I feel better about it now.

BravoCompanyUSA

04-26-07, 21:36

Have Grant Mo-Wack it ! :)

We use it here in the BCM shop also.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/BCM20Bolt20Carrier20Group20AUTO20MP.jpg

blackscot

04-27-07, 11:38

.....My carrier originally appeared to be staked with a chisel.......

Mine too, rather than any kind of punch.

Robb Jensen

04-27-07, 11:39

Mine too, rather than any kind of punch.

Send it up with Tim. I'll fix it.

tiger seven

04-28-07, 18:36

C4IGrant

04-28-07, 20:26

Grant, do you use the MOACKS on every carrier you sell before you ship it?

I know you only sell top-notch stuff, but I'm curious if they come to you from the factory with a proper staking job or if you "Mo-Wack" them before the go out the door.

Derek

Yes, I own both versions of the MOACKS and use them on every carrier that needs them. About the ONLY carrier key that I don't stake are the ones that come from LMT and BCM.

All of the BCG's I build or the Stag's that come through the shop (either in uppers, complete weapons or BCG's) are staked by me.

C4

tiger seven

04-28-07, 20:36

Thanks for the quick reply, Grant. The LMT one I got from you last week had such a nice, uniform staking that I was curious if it was a factory stake job or not. Either way, it's GTG. I think I need to pick up one of those Pocket MOACKS for future builds.

Thanks again.

Derek

blackscot

04-30-07, 11:31

Send it up with Tim. I'll fix it.

Thanks Rob. Haven't heard back yet from Tim when he's going. Let me know your fee and I'll see that he's adequately funded.

BTW - put another ~120 rounds thru after the re-tighten and screws are holding so-far. So no emergency, but realize they need staking for a permanent solution.

Robb Jensen

04-30-07, 14:01

Thanks Rob. Haven't heard back yet from Tim when he's going. Let me know your fee and I'll see that he's adequately funded.

BTW - put another ~120 rounds thru after the re-tighten and screws are holding so-far. So no emergency, but realize they need staking for a permanent solution.

No charge Randy.

blackscot

05-01-07, 06:13

You are a gentleman, and I'll owe you a favor.

Hopefully I can connect with Tim before his trip up.

tiger seven

05-03-07, 19:00

Ned Christiansen

05-04-07, 08:14

Gladja like it, Derek!

Whytep38

05-07-07, 07:54

Well, I got my Pocket MOACKS from Ned yesterday. I tried it out tonight on one of my old and rather poorly staked carriers. Amazing! What a brilliant - and brilliantly simple - design. Thanks Ned!

Derek+1. Well, actually +2 because I used my pocket MOACKS (P-MOACKS?) to stake two separate carriers. Simple to use and does what it claims to do.

blackscot

05-07-07, 12:51

gotm4 at Virginia Arms already has the re-staked carrier en-route back to me.

Talk about fast-fast-fast relief ! ! ! :eek:

May very well be back-to-blammin' by week's end. :D

Shall report back with likely wrap-up.

BigDog

05-13-07, 16:00

gotM4 is definitely a gentleman when it comes to AR work. I figure I owe him at least fifty bucks for stuff he's done for me in the last few months!

But hey, at least the wine was good....:D

Robb Jensen

05-13-07, 16:05

gotM4 is definitely a gentleman when it comes to AR work. I figure I owe him at least fifty bucks for stuff he's done for me in the last few months!

But hey, at least the wine was good....:D

Thanks! It was damn good Vino. :D

blackscot

05-14-07, 06:59

Behold the fine workmanship of Virginia Arms.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/bolt-carrier_key_stake.jpg

That puppy's not likely to move anywhere now, but let's just have a lookie see......

.....now she's smokin' like a fine cigar.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/smoke.jpg

F O C U S glossoppah.....

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/focus.jpg

"Molesting steel" at 100....200......yea, 300 yards.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/steel.jpg

Four mag-fulls of 120 flawless rounds later --> satisfaction.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/satisfied.jpg

Thanks to gotm4 for the fine work, to Templar for the good steer (just the latest of many such over the years), and to C4 for also offering to help.

I've said it before and will again: Shooters are among the best folks on earth.

MX5

06-09-07, 07:30

It really is amazing how common place this problem has become. There is no excuse for manufacturers and/or assemblers to miss this so much.

dialM4murder

08-09-07, 18:08

Have Grant Mo-Wack it ! :)

We use it here in the BCM shop also.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/BCM20Bolt20Carrier20Group20AUTO20MP.jpg

I assume yours(bravo's) are staked correctly? Id like to order one of those.

SHIVAN

08-18-07, 15:49

Bump...

SIGfest

02-03-08, 02:31

What bothers me about this is what other steps are short-changed? A cheap solution to this problem that shouldn't exist to begin with. Thankfully there are guys to help us out.

Rider79

12-06-08, 21:36

Any experience with the M16 carriers from Larue Tactical being properly staked? Considering picking them up because Blake from Larue said they have the parts in stock and a pretty quick turn around.

Ned Christiansen

12-06-08, 23:42

LaRue's carrier keys are done right.

Rider79

12-07-08, 00:25

thanks Ned, I'll put an order in for your pocket moacks on Monday to correct all my current BCGs

kaiservontexas

02-14-09, 19:48

I have to ask the question. How difficult to do on your own once you have the tools?

It is not that I do not trust gunsmiths. I just like learning and doing myself when it comes to firearms as they fascinate me to no end, and is why I am building up a stripped lower, etc, etc. I am also thinking about going for gunsmithing certification sometime in the future after I obtain my BA, grad May 09. :) So I have an interest in knowing the difficulties involved doing it on one's own.

g5m

02-15-09, 19:54

Very easy with the MOACKS tool. The 'Moacks plain' allows you to put the bolt carrier and key in one position, secure it and stake all four positions. The first time will take about five minutes getting the feel of it and after that about two minutes.
The MOACKS plain may or may not be on the website now but Ned had a thread announcing them about two months ago and they were maybe $85.

JohnVassilakos

11-02-09, 10:35

Just ordered a MOACKS and will hopefully have it by the weekend:D

El Mac

11-02-09, 15:00

You won't regret it. Ned sent a pocket MOACK to me in Afghanistan and it worked like a champ...and I even did a few others besides my own. Beautiful tool.

the.2nd1

11-02-09, 15:56

I staked mine with a center punch and hammer

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss145/winfrey57/010-11.jpg

Ofc.JL

11-04-09, 21:57

Gentlemen, Get a P-MOACKS(or Big MOACKS, if your expense account allows) from Ned! It is the single most important tool that anyone with any brand of AR must have. You will thank yourself and your AR friends will thank you. Brilliant tool from the GoTo Guy for AR probs: Ned Christiansen! I have had 1 for about 2 years and I have staked dozens of poorly or non staked carrier keys in my area. AR people now love me. Women throw themselves at me. I am held in high esteem...(lolol).
Seriously, get 1 now! It's that good!
Ofc.JL
BTW, Ned, did I catch a couple of pictures of you in Sweeneys AR-15, vol 1 & 2 books? I think it was you. And tell Sweeney, if you talk to him sometime, he did a good job with his AR-15 books. Good stuff!:p
Stay Frosty, my Brothers!

Ned Christiansen

11-05-09, 08:50

Yes, a few editions slipped out without the black bar over my eyes.... I'll expect you to correct that in yours with a Magic Marker.....:p

And as to the women throwing themselves at you...... obviously you did not read the fine print in your MOACKS instructions, which is actually the "User Agreement", wherein it is stated that you are supposed to be sending 3 of ever 10 my way.......

Ofc.JL

11-05-09, 13:28

Soon as I can find them again, Oh Wise and Wonderful Sage, I will send them your way. Long trip from Texas, however.
And I will "Sharpie" your eyes in my volumes, asap. Yes, I will get right on that....
:D
In all honesty though, You have done us all a HUGE favor with your MOACKS. The finest "must have " AR tool ever engineered! From all us old time AR guys, Thank You!
BTW, Anybody notice that Brownell's now stocks a very close copy. The sincerest form of flattery is imitation!
Copyright probs, Ned?
Ofc.JL

Roklok

11-05-09, 14:07

I bought a Stag Model 1 about 2 weeks ago and it was not properly staked. I ordered the MOACKS plain and received it last Monday. The tool works great and only took me about 5 minutes.

Ned Christiansen

11-05-09, 14:51

Brownell's is carrying mine now too.... waiting to see what happens with the other one.

Blankwaffe

11-05-09, 20:39

Ned,
Is Brownells going to carry your 5.56 reamer as well?

Iraqgunz

11-05-09, 21:05

So easy a caveman can do it. I used to use a punch until my previous employer bought a MOACKS. It speeded things up considerably.

I have to ask the question. How difficult to do on your own once you have the tools?

It is not that I do not trust gunsmiths. I just like learning and doing myself when it comes to firearms as they fascinate me to no end, and is why I am building up a stripped lower, etc, etc. I am also thinking about going for gunsmithing certification sometime in the future after I obtain my BA, grad May 09. :) So I have an interest in knowing the difficulties involved doing it on one's own.

MarkG

11-05-09, 22:12

I'm a bit skeptical. Is somebody willing to throw up a before and after picture of a MOACKS staked key? Thanks...

El Mac

11-05-09, 22:27

I'm a bit skeptical. Is somebody willing to throw up a before and after picture of a MOACKS staked key? Thanks...

Wow. Besides being ignorant, its a slap in the face to those that took the time to post on this thread and others. Ned builds a damn fine tool. Be skeptical all you want and miss the boat dude.

MarkG

11-06-09, 00:33

Wow. Besides being ignorant, its a slap in the face to those that took the time to post on this thread and others. Ned builds a damn fine tool. Be skeptical all you want and miss the boat dude.

Relax...I may be calculating, but not ignorant.

Time to fold a new hat my friend. The aluminum foil is worn out on the old one. I just asked for a couple of photos and I never said Ned wasn't a nice guy and didn't build fine tools. Focus, lets stay on topic...

El Mac

11-06-09, 08:21

Relax...I may be calculating, but not ignorant.

Time to fold a new hat my friend. The aluminum foil is worn out on the old one. I just asked for a couple of photos and I never said Ned wasn't a nice guy and didn't build fine tools. Focus, lets stay on topic...

Really? Why don't you tell me how you fold your tin foil hat dude? I've yet to wear one. But I can call a spade a spade.

Besides, if you would use the search function you could find what you are looking for without coming across as an ingrate.

Robb Jensen

11-06-09, 08:23

I'm a bit skeptical. Is somebody willing to throw up a before and after picture of a MOACKS staked key? Thanks...

For your reading pleasure......http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6993
I started that thread 2yrs ago. No need to reinvent the wheel here.

MarkG

11-06-09, 09:13

For your reading pleasure......http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6993
I started that thread 2yrs ago. No need to reinvent the wheel here.

Thank you!

notorious_ar15

11-06-09, 20:59

What do you guys suggest as a good torque setting for the carrier key bolts before staking them?

Iraqgunz

11-07-09, 02:18

The TM states 50-58 inch/lbs.

What do you guys suggest as a good torque setting for the carrier key bolts before staking them?

SlayerG2-1

08-14-11, 21:50

I ordered my P-MOACKS last week--got it within a couple of days. This weekend I went shooting with some friends at which time I put a Crane o-ring in my buddy's Stag, properly staked his receiver end plate and used my new P-MOACKS to properly stake and counter-stake his gas key. I've also used the tool on my Noveske and backup Daniel Defense carriers to counter-stake them. The P-MOACKS is an awesome tool; simple and elegant. Thanks, Ned!