pepper spray

[Neville]

Self defense experts like John Farnam and Andy Stanford like pepper spray as a tool for breaking contact or using preemptively before
a situation gets to the lethal force level. One is certainly less hesitant to spray people than to shoot them. Any opinion on this?

My two requirements are an ergonomic, pointable canister and fog/cone spray pattern. FOX seems like a quality product but their round canister
is hard to orient towards the opponent under high stress. Mace has great canisters but their scoville heat unit rating is not that great. So far I have
found it only in the US brand Guardian Protective Devices MK6 (http://www.guardpd.com/3-4-oz-flip-top-unit-mk-6.html) unit. Do you have any experiences with it
or the brand in general? They claim to be the only military issued OC spray: "Guardian was awarded the IRCAD (Individual Riot Control Agent
Disperser) contract and issued several NSN’s (National Stock Numbers) and our products are currently deployed all over the world;"

Whats your preference in terms of brand, canister size and patterns?

Thanks!

[jasonhgross]

Flip tops only!
Buy the sizes you will actually carry.
Brand is mostly insignificant since armor holdings purchased most of the brands.
Even the small mini MACE brand is good if you will have it with you.

[bobbo]

Check out the Kimber Pepper Blaster, I've had one in my pocket for four years.

[jasonhgross]

No offense, but for that size I can carry a jframe. Plus its too heavy and overly complicated. For the same price I can get several flip top units and have them in the car, by the door, and in my pocket.

[tpd223]

"Brand is mostly insignificant..."

Not really.

Many of the OC brands available on the market are rather poor at getting bad guys to stop what they are doing due to the formulation being so weak.
The Def Tec brand comes to mind as being particularly weak sauce.

I've been sprayed in excess of 50 times during training (and unfortunately on the street as well), with every major brand on the market, so I speak from first hand experience.

Over the years of using various brands of OC at my work, and teaching both user level and instructor classes, I have found the Saber Red is the best OC product that I have used to date.

The Saber is hotter than almost any other spray, consistently so, and the design of the new canisters allows deployment from any angle. The "Crossfire" streamer reaches out to 17-18' in calm air and hits with force.

Personally I prefer the cone shaped mist or fogger style sprays, but not everybody feels that way.

[El Vaquero]

Saber is prolly the hottest. Fox isn't bad either. We had issues with Fox causing some burns so we switched to the Punch, which isnt near as effective. :mad:

[SeriousStudent]

I have cans of Fox stashed everywhere. I would also suggest getting some Sudecon wipes to clean off the backblast, and a few cans of practice spray.

Aggressive dogs seem to not enjoy it at all.

I personally think it's not a bad thing to have a less-lethal option available, if there is a potential grand jury chat in my future.

[Scarecrow01]

Fox and Saber is most likely the best out there for using on anyone that needs it. I have used both makes literally countless times in the field under any type of situation you can come up with and I am very comfortable when using Fox. That stuff is just brutal! One time I almost felt bad (key word is almost) after spraying someone and watching his discomfort even after Medical was doing a washdown. We've hosed the air in bars during pretty good fights and it has literally cleared the crowd.

[dsmguy7]

I believe that Saber Red is the most miserable substance on earth. When sprayed, it feels like you are dunking your face into a Fry-daddy. I was sprayed in the academy and I swear I think that I would rather be shot. I have sensitive eyes and it screwed me up. My face burned till the next day even after washing it several times. My eyes matted up and I had 20-80 vision for 3 days. I'm fine now, but I only carry it for dogs. 9 times out of 10, if you spray it in a fight; you'll contaminate yourself or someone else.

[markm]

I believe that Saber Red is the most miserable substance on earth.

That was our flavor. It had different effects on different people. I remember this very light skinned dude who looked like a LOBSTER when we went back to the classroom for AAR.

Although it sucked, I personally didn't find it to be as bad as I thought it would be. I doubt I'd carry it or deploy it in the CCW role. I figure if I had it on me and shot some asswipe, the fact that I didn't use it instead of lethal force might be used against me.

[El Vaquero]

I believe that Saber Red is the most miserable substance on earth. When sprayed, it feels like you are dunking your face into a Fry-daddy. I was sprayed in the academy and I swear I think that I would rather be shot. I have sensitive eyes and it screwed me up. My face burned till the next day even after washing it several times. My eyes matted up and I had 20-80 vision for 3 days. I'm fine now, but I only carry it for dogs. 9 times out of 10, if you spray it in a fight; you'll contaminate yourself or someone else.

Personally, after having been sprayed a couple of times and tased (not at the same time if course), I would much rather be tased. OC leaves my eyes jacked up for a few hours. BUT. . . there are plenty of those people that get sprayed and practically lick that stuff of their face. Different strokes for different folks.

[ST911]

Increasing SHUs may or may not produce increased effectiveness, regardless of the marketing. It depends on the product itself and the subject it's applied to. You may find that all you do by increasing SHUs is increase the decon and recovery time.

Admittedly, for the citizen that needs to spray and escape, decon is much less a consideration. However, for the professional that will need to care for the subject after the application of OC it's more of an issue. Folks with RM and liability concerns will also want to ensure the product they're using is safe, beyond safe assertions in marketing. Ensure that your product is in fact non-flammable, regardless of the label. Ask for an MSDS to see what's inside. If the manufacturer resists, obfuscates, or says, "huh?", run.

I believe it was an IACP research project, in conjunction with the industry, that set ~2M as an optimal rating for all considerations. 2M seems to be the norm in most products.

I use DefTec First Defense, various sizes.

[Neville]

Thanks for your input! How do you pratice with OC and ensure the cans reliability?

[markm]

Thanks for your input! How do you pratice with OC and ensure the cans reliability?

I think some companies make "inert" versions of their product. But practicing with live spray isn't a bad idea. Knowing how the product streams or sprays is helpful.

Obviously you'd want to spray some in an open, outdoor area. :p