Carbine off vertical

[rob_s]

We had a "long range precision match" last night with targets ranging from 3 yards to 150(furthest we can get) and sizing from an egg at 75, to 4" steel at 50, up to fullsize IDPA targets at 7 yards and half-sized IPSC at 3 yards.

Stage 1 (pictures to follow) was arranged so that all of the prone shooting was done under a wall that was set approximately 8" above the ground. Even with a 20 round magazine, this meant that most shooters had to cant the gun. There was, of course, much bitching and moaning from certain elements, countered by a great deal of "great training!" from certain other elements.

One thing that remained consistent was the discussion of where to hold to get the hits. It was rather interesting to eavesdrop on these discussions. One thing that I found interesting is that I don't recall hearing a single shooter mention what distance they were zeroed, or very many that mentioned which way they canted the gun, as part of these discussions.

I know there was an article in SWAT a few months ago on this, but I thought it might make for an interesting discussion here as well.

Apologies if it's been discussed before, it's just fresh in my head after yesterday.

[rob_s]

These images may give you some idea as to what we were doing, if it matters.

http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq10/tacticalyellowvisor/Competition/100330%20Precision%20Match/100330markhamS1-02.jpg


Stage 1 was to the left, lines indicate targets to be engaged from that stage. Firing line in this case was the 15 yard line, with the steel target in the upper right being past the 100 yard line.
http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq10/tacticalyellowvisor/Competition/100330%20Precision%20Match/100330markham.jpg

[HeavyDuty]

This is the kind of everyday practical training that I wish I could find around here... hell, I'd even ringlead a group if I had someplace local we could shoot like this.

[Jay Cunningham]

While perhaps not exactly 100% relevant, have you checked out the following threads?

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33717

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33747

[VMI-MO]

Depending on your zero, the simple rule I was taught and that I follow is hold to the magazine well side of the weapon and high on the targets shoulder.


So if my weapon is canted so the optic is at the 3 o'clock position, and the magazine well extends at the 9 o'clock position I would hold on the targets upper left (in relation to me) shoulder area for my round to impact center mass.


Stand bye for a picture.


PJ

[VMI-MO]

Disclaimer: This is not my rifle. It is just googled imaged.

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab49/karonispj/ShootingCantPic.jpg



PJ

[rob_s]

While perhaps not exactly 100% relevant, have you checked out the following threads?

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33717

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33747

Thanks, second one helps.

I do think that, at least for me, getting out there and testing the theories is the only way to really get this stuff to sink into your mind. I'm going to put my bipod on one of my rifles with a 9x optic and both cant the gun as far to one side as the bipod will allow, AND go so far as to mount the bipod on the 9 and 3 o'clock rails and see what we get at various distances.

[d90king]

Very helpful discussion. Great topic!

[Surf]

There are factors such as ammo, zero, offset angle, however the biggest factor with say 5.56 is obviously distance and the amount of precision necessary. We need to take into account that the bullet as it leaves the barrel will start to drop and with an offset orientation there will not be a trajectory that crosses our standard line of sight at 2 points.

If combat accuracy is good enough generally about out to 100m or so, hold off is not as important as the +/- variance is not so great in either the left or right or downward drop. As distance increases out to around 150y-200y a high and opposite optic hold off comes into play. By opposite optic I mean if the optic is on the left, hold to the right and vise versa, as in the above picture.

For my guys, I teach a good estimate of hold offs, out to distance similar to what is shown in the picture above. In reality a 100y shot from a carbine with a red dot is going to get a normal combat high center mass point of aim point of impact hold because a +/- variance of around 2" or so is an acceptable variance. I show 150y and 200y hold, but in reality we would be hard pressed to get into that type of an engagement, but it is good info. Getting out and shooting it is definitely a good idea, especially if you want to hit eggs at 75y. :)

[Surf]

Uhm, OK I just clicked the link above. I could have saved some typing. :)

[Fred Robinson]

As PJ posted,

magazine side high; in other words 10 o'clock or 2 o'clock. This is at distance.

For CQB range it follows the usual sight above bore off-set of about 2 inches. Carbine rolled ejection port down, hold at 3 o'clock; ejct. port up, hold at 9 o'clock.

Best regards,

Fred