View Full Version : So what's the verdict on KNS Anti-Rotational Pins?
At first, I thought they were all marketing hype as a solution to a problem that never existed.
However, the talk of older AR lowers (in the thread about wearing out a lower) becoming inevitably eggholed leads me to believe that it isn't that they do or don't work - it's just that most people don't keep or run their AR's long enough for them to be useful. If another AWB took place, then the option of replacing a lower might not be so simple.
That said, is there any final authority on the subject?
Quiet-Matt
04-01-10, 19:39
I generally don't sell my guns. I have my dad's, and my 2 year old has already laid claim to one of my AR's. I run the anti-rorational pins in my lowers as a cheap solution to a problem that may very well never develope. On the other hand peace of mind that the holes won't wear, and the pins won't walk is well worth the price to me. Having them on there isn't hurting a thing. ;)
SeriousStudent
04-01-10, 19:58
Ask markm.
;)
If you want to spend the money go for it.
Just be aware that some specialized triggers that COME with pins already should ONLY be run with the supplied pins.
One trigger that comes to mind is the SSA as per the owners recommendations.
His pins are designed, cut and sized perfectly for his trigger, the KNS pins are slightly oversized and could result in issues.
Iraq Ninja
04-02-10, 02:07
I don't think they are needed. I have never seen a worn out lower. Yes, it could happen, but I doubt any of us need them.
On the negative side, I don't like to add things with screws. They can become loose and fall out.
ChicagoTex
04-02-10, 04:44
I was always under the impression that the only possible usefulness you could get out of KNS anti-rotation pins was on registered receivers (particularly full-auto registered receivers) where the receiver's registration value tremendously exceeds it's intrinsic value.
On regular semi-auto guns, I don't see the point. I'm not at all confident you can actually shoot a 5.56 AR enough to really open up those holes and even if you somehow did, the $80 to buy a new lower receiver is dwarfed by the gozillion dollars worth of ammo you spent to get there.
Just my 2 cents worth :cool:
ive got a set on one of my rifles. its more of an aesthetics thing to me.
I've seen pins walk from rifles. I was also about two spots down from a guy in Magpul Carbine 1 who's hammer pin walked out slightly and turned his semi-auto in to a full auto. The instructors, and the RSOs, about flipped their shit till he showed them what happened. Frankly pins CAN walk. I've also been running KNS pins on my SSA trigger for about a year, with thousands of rounds through that gun, not a problem.
One of the comments I hear from guys running M110s is that the trigger pins under that recoil causes them to walk as well. So even on the SR-25 I have them installed. Frankly it's a 20 dollar part, I'd rather have them than not.
Some folks have never had an issue without them, that's cool. I've seen guns slip in to auto because of 'in spec' pins walking out from moderate use. That's not "I heard it from a guy who once read it online," I saw it, I was there, it was a pretty awkward moment in class.
I use them on title II registered AR's but not much else.
I built one lower with standard RRA LPK and the trigger pin had a tendency to walk out, so I installed them on that gun as well.
Does every AR need them...no. Might yours? Maybe. It's only $20, not really a big deal one way or another.
If your concerned about wear on the lower, or pins walking out it's cheap insurance.
they have a real good mil discount if you order direct.
tr1kstanc3
04-02-10, 08:34
I had one lower that was problematic about the hammer pin walking out and this solved the issue. Since then I use them on my lowers and have been happy with them.
Do you guys mind sharing a link to where you can get them for $20?
Do you guys mind sharing a link to where you can get them for $20?
Brownell's has them for $25:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26944/Product/GEN__2_MOD__2_NON_ROTATING_PIN_SET
I'm sure there are cheaper places, but I like to give Brownells my money since their customer service is top of the line.
Aquajon,
I think you may be looking at dealer cost. Retail they are $33 at Brownells.
Aquajon,
I think you may be looking at dealer cost. Retail they are $33 at Brownells.
Yes, but "anyone" can be a dealer with Brownells without anymore than saying you are one.
TriggerFish
04-02-10, 12:58
With a RR running a 9mm upper (ramp that bolt too!) FA puts a big stress on the stock pins. Cheap insurance and the Gen. II pins are a good upgrade if you currently are running Gen. I type KNS. I talked to Chris @ KNS at this year's S.H.O.T. about this. For semi-auto 5.56, except for "walking" concerns, probably not necessary. YMMV
i like the gen one design.
TriggerFish
04-02-10, 17:10
They have a Gen. II that looks/attaches just like Gen. I The Gen. I pins that broke were usually in the 9mm SMG config... the hollow (for oil retention) pin shafts were the weak link. Chris says to update, and he used to do it for free to Gen. I ownwers. I believe that was for the last couple of years though.
you know if hes still doing that? if not im not going to change mine out unless they do break
Can't see a need for them in most applications. If your pins walk out something is wrong, bad parts or springs not installed right.
TriggerFish
04-02-10, 19:48
you know if hes still doing that? if not im not going to change mine out unless they do break
You can ask.
http://www.knsprecisioninc.com/
militarymoron
04-02-10, 20:05
one use for them is for drop-in trigger modules that don't use springs to retain the pins, like the timney.
I've got a set for when and if my pins break. My hammer pin broke one day and stopped me from shooting. I think the pin broke because of two things 1) I shot my Spikes 22 upper quite a bit on that lower and didn't clean out the lower & 2) it was a Stag LPK. I replaced the broken pin with another one (before I had the KNS pins) and since then, I've been disassembling the lower every so often to clean out the gunk and check the pins. Just a little bit of PM.
I'm reluctant to put the Spikes on my Colt because of what happened to my Stag.
Pin walkout is a material or assembly defect and should be fixed, not bandaided. BUT - Colt did exactly that on one prototype, with flat plates attached to the pins to prevent others from walking out. Even they suffered the problem, addressed it, and applied a fix.
Anybody have a pic of an actual walkout? It's talked a lot, but evidence is hard to come by.
I don't have a picture of it, but I can call the guy it happened to in class, and I'm sure Costa would remember as well ;)
Cheap insurance and I don't see what they can hurt. I run them in all mine.
one use for them is for drop-in trigger modules that don't use springs to retain the pins, like the timney.
That's exactly what I have my one set for - works great with the Timney units.
TriggerFish
04-03-10, 14:22
Found a pic from the 70's... looks like Chris was working on the Gen. II pins way back.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c314/Z06M16A1/Title%202%20Toys/16plus19115.jpg
Found a pic from the 70's... looks like Chris was working on the Gen. II pins way back.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c314/Z06M16A1/Title%202%20Toys/16plus19115.jpg
Funny, Nikon must have been working on the D40X back then, too - probably during slack time in the F3 development schedule. :D
pretty sure all those items are from the 70s but that doesnt mean the picture is.
pretty sure all those items are from the 70s but that doesnt mean the picture is.
Found a pic from the 70's...
Just giving him a hard time. :D
i wish they still came with that grip.
Ask markm.
;)
Silly NONSENSE.
Just look at the other products in KNS's line. :rolleyes:
you know if hes still doing that? if not im not going to change mine out unless they do break
He posted on another forum that KNS is no longer offering the free upgrade.
I use them on my F/A RRs and any AR I use a 9mm upper on. Unfortunately I did not find out about them until after I broke a hammer pin shooting 9mm F/A on a RR. The broken pin hole egged out before I realized the pin was broken.
Posted by Chris from KNS on another forum:
"John, You are correct about the oil holes in the trigger pins. We also made the Hammer pin solid on all of the Gen 2 series pin sets. They are over 40% stronger than the Gen 1 pins. The Gen 1 pins are already stronger than the stock pins. We recommend anyone with an running 9mm or a Registered M-16 to upgrade. We gave away the upgrades for almost 2 years before we had to start charging for them. Email me if you have any questions.
Chris"
Below is a link to the other Forum's thread. This was taken from the 6th post.
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51522&highlight=kns
yeah ill just rock the gen ones for now. ill put some gen two mod twos in my next build.
hotrodder636
05-17-12, 14:44
I thought I had read somewhere on here that if you were planning to run suppressed that the KNS pins were a good idea...lany truth to that?
NCPatrolAR
05-17-12, 15:01
Extremely useful on guns with trigger packs as MM mentioned. I use them on my gun that has a CMC pack in it
I tried the Gen I pins on my RR M-16 with Geissele SSA trigger. That didn't work. Gave it one more shot with the Gen II pins. That worked. I've run a couple thousand 5.56 and several thousand .22lr's on this setup with no issues.
My instructor has had pins walk and he uses only quality firearms. He now uses their pins. I see them as really cheap insurance.
Extremely useful on guns with trigger packs as MM mentioned. I use them on my gun that has a CMC pack in it
Yea I've had friends use them with timney triggers.
Anyway I've seen pins walk out on a few guns before. I see the kns pins as a good option if you need it.
Needed...no, not really. Military been running M-16's for decades without them and it hasen't really been an issue. That said, I have them on the 2 SBR's I have as I thing $30 is cheap insurance for what I got wrapped up in the two of them. Unlike the military, I just can't get another from supply.
I think they are cheap insurance. Besides, I like the way they look. I have them on my current M4gery and plan to install them on the RECCE I'm planning to build soon.
When they came to the market I was confused. That's all I have to say aside from that they look cool. I'm not even sure they find severe need on a fully automatic IAR type AR either.
Everyone keeps saying "cheap insurance" and so i have to ask. Insurance against what? Myself and many others have yet to see holes damaged that weren't caused by wrong tools or improper methods.
IG, I think what's being said is that one time either pin decides to stroll(which I've only seen once on a well used f/a lower) your already covered. That being said, I think it is a non-issue if not a little on the overkill side.
And yea, I bought a set a few years ago. Took them back off soon after.
By the way, would you elaborate on wrong tools and improper methods. No smartass intended, just wonder if I'm missing somthing.
Here's this civilian shooter's verdict...I've relegated them to the parts bin:
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/Dr_Wolfenstein/ARs/DSCN2198.jpg
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