View Full Version : Polymer handguns is there much of a differance?
First off I am not trying to start a "this vs that polymer" thread here. I have some questions that never seem to get answered in the "this vs that" gun threads. I own most of the brands I have questions about and love all of them though the M&P is starting to be the only one I shoot.
The companies in question are H&K, Sig, S&W, Glock, Springfield and Walther.
1.) Is there a difference in the polymer used in each of these handguns or are they relatively the same?
2.) In terms of materials used for internal parts are they all pretty much equal. I know with 1911's it is always cast vs forged or MIM vs non-mim. I have never see any of this brought up with polymer handguns for the most part.
3.) Are the barrels made out of the same type of steel? I assume they aren't just never seen a "chart" that goes over it.
I was sitting down today after I went to the range and cleaning my handguns. I just got a new P30 and have noticed the polymer doesn't seem as rigid as the Glock. Every time I do a search on any handgun I always get the "vs" thread which always seems to be a personal preference for the most part.
I have never see any of this brought up with polymer handguns for the most part.
There's plenty of MIM in plastic guns, one example is the MIM striker on the M&P. The 3rd gen strikers finally seem to have it right and don't break with a modest amount of dry fire.
3.) Are the barrels made out of the same type of steel? I assume they aren't just never seen a "chart" that goes over it.
Plenty of folks complain about the metal in Glock OEM barrels, many have referred to them as pot metal.
There's plenty of MIM in plastic guns, one example is the MIM striker on the M&P. The 3rd gen strikers finally seem to have it right and don't break with a modest amount of dry fire.
Plenty of folks complain about the metal in Glock OEM barrels, many have referred to them as pot metal.
what's the issue with OEM glock barrels? :confused:
gotta be some really good pot metal to last 200k rounds. :o
I was just about to ask the same. There are a LOT of Glocks out there in customer hands, and of all the problems that I've heard of, issues with the material used in the barrel isn't something I've seen mentioned.
I don't pay much attention to it, but I usually hear it in reference to KBs, and how poor metallurgy makes the failures much worse.
QuietShootr
04-03-10, 18:13
There's plenty of MIM in plastic guns, one example is the MIM striker on the M&P. The 3rd gen strikers finally seem to have it right and don't break with a modest amount of dry fire.
Plenty of folks complain about the metal in Glock OEM barrels, many have referred to them as pot metal.
Is there a serial number cutoff for the non-mim firing pin in the M&P?
I don't know if the current strikers are MIM or not, but you can generally identify them easily by color, they are silver and not coated black.
I don't pay much attention to it, but I usually hear it in reference to KBs, and how poor metallurgy makes the failures much worse.
the glock kabooms i've seen attributed to the gun rather than ammo (mostly 40's) seem to blow out through the feed ramp area and trash the frame, the barrels don't look bad.
the glock kabooms i've seen attributed to the gun rather than ammo (mostly 40's) seem to blow out through the feed ramp area and trash the frame, the barrels don't look bad.
There are a lot of pics that look like this:
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowup_images/glock4.jpg
Alpha Sierra
04-03-10, 18:28
This obsession with the exact metallurgy of all those gun parts is freaking ridiculous.
Most people don't have the technical know-how, education, or experience to make an educated decision on this anyway.
Alpha Sierra
04-03-10, 18:29
Is there a serial number cutoff for the non-mim firing pin in the M&P?
Who said S&W stopped using MIM?
Most people don't have the technical know-how, education, or experience to make an educated decision on this anyway.
I wholeheartedly agree, and freely admit that I fall in to this category.
Alpha Sierra
04-03-10, 18:41
I am a degreed engineer. I have worked as a manufacturing engineer and engineering manager in a variety of assembly and manufacturing companies for the last 15 years.
I don't get my panties in a bunch over the differences between 4140 and 4150 steel (the differences are utterly irrelevant in semi auto rifles). I marvel at all the hammer-forging fanboys and their ignorant rantings about how hammer forged barrels are "better" (they are not, or Krieger would use the process). I really don't GAF about the exact formulation of Glock's polymer vs S&W's, vs HK. Nor do I GAF if there are MIM parts in my handguns (I've shot and dry fired the ever loving shit out of S&W wheelguns full of MIM and they still run like a swiss clock).
In short, I buy high quality firearms, shoot the crap out of them, and fix them if they break. I don't sweat stupid shit like what steel alloy they used on my barrel.
G34Shooter
04-03-10, 18:46
I am a degreed engineer. I have worked as a manufacturing engineer and engineering manager in a variety of assembly and manufacturing companies for the last 15 years.
I don't get my panties in a bunch over the differences between 4140 and 4150 steel (the differences are utterly irrelevant in semi auto rifles). I marvel at all the hammer-forging fanboys and their ignorant rantings about how hammer forged barrels are "better" (they are not, or Krieger would use the process). I really don't GAF about the exact formulation of Glock's polymer vs S&W's, vs HK. Nor do I GAF if there are MIM parts in my handguns (I've shot and dry fired the ever loving shit out of S&W wheelguns full of MIM and they still run like a swiss clock).
In short, I buy high quality firearms, shoot the crap out of them, and fix them if they break. I don't sweat stupid shit like what steel alloy they used on my barrel.
If the MIM strikers in the M&P's were not a problem then S&W would not be on their 3rd or 4th redesign of it with the most current one made out of SS.
Glocks are great guns, but it seems the HK's are more rigid and sturdier. Maybe I'm just imagining it. :(
The plastic on the HK is more durable. If you take the mag out of the Glock and HK, squeeze the magwell you will see alot of difference. Also if you remove the slide and just bend the plastic you will be able to tell the difference. I don't know what Glock makes their barrels out of but I do know that HK is made from the same metal that they make cannon ball barrels from. The guide rod on the HK is obviously more durable it's metal and not plastic. None of these things take away from the Glock design, but just from a quick visual of both the HK seems to be a better or sturdier design. I have had Glocks and HK's . They will both serve you well, pick the one that you shoot the best and that you like.No matter how well it does everything else, if you don't warm up to it, you won't keep it, or shoot it.
John_Wayne777
04-03-10, 19:38
The companies in question are H&K, Sig, S&W, Glock, Springfield and Walther.
1.) Is there a difference in the polymer used in each of these handguns or are they relatively the same?
I don't think anyone outside the companies themselves is able to comment on the exact formulation of polymer used in the frames of the different companies you mention.
2.) In terms of materials used for internal parts are they all pretty much equal. I know with 1911's it is always cast vs forged or MIM vs non-mim. I have never see any of this brought up with polymer handguns for the most part.
It varies from design to design. You'll find a lot of stamped steel inside all of them, MIM parts, perhaps some milled parts etc.
3.) Are the barrels made out of the same type of steel? I assume they aren't just never seen a "chart" that goes over it.
That would also vary from company to company. Of all of them H&K probably has the "best". They use a proprietary barrel steel that has to survive some pretty brutal testing.
The short answer is that you aren't likely to find a lot of that information floating around out there because much of it is considered proprietary.
I was sitting down today after I went to the range and cleaning my handguns. I just got a new P30 and have noticed the polymer doesn't seem as rigid as the Glock. Every time I do a search on any handgun I always get the "vs" thread which always seems to be a personal preference for the most part.
You may be looking too hard at all of this. Your P30, absent some sort of manufacturing defect, is plenty rigid enough where it needs to be and is likely to offer you a long, reliable service life. A 9mm Glock or an M&P is likely to do the same. If you are looking for a clear "winner" between the mentioned options on technical specs, you are unlikely to find one since all the mentioned options are capable of performing up to a reasonable standard.
Since all of them could get the job done then it becomes a question of preference...what features you want, what price you are willing to pay, etc. That is a question that will vary from person to person.
Is there a serial number cutoff for the non-mim firing pin in the M&P?
Nope, there is no cutoff.
I'm pretty sure the latest silver ones are still mim. They're just not black coated.
John_Wayne777
04-03-10, 19:55
There are a lot of pics that look like this:
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowup_images/glock4.jpg
Glock has at points in the past had issues with guns breaking because of metallurgy. I know that the DOE had some issues along those lines with .40 caliber pistols they purchased.
Still, most of the .40 caliber Glock problems haven't been the result of metallurgy issues.
glockshooter
04-03-10, 21:01
Glock has at points in the past had issues with guns breaking because of metallurgy. I know that the DOE had some issues along those lines with .40 caliber pistols they purchased.
Still, most of the .40 caliber Glock problems haven't been the result of metallurgy issues.
This picture is an example of a castostophic case failure. This type if failure would KB just about every weapon out there. Also keep in mind that there are more Glocks out there these days than most all others guns. So it would only make sense that if there are more Glocks out there they have more opportunities to have KBs or malfuctions. If Glock has 50% of the market, and S&W, HK, Springfield, Sig, Beretta, and all the 1911 makers account for the other 50%, and .001% of all guns have a KB which is going to have more KBs ( These are in no way official numbers just making an example). It only makes sense that Glocks large market share would make it seem like there are more Glock KBs. Pretty much anyone who works around or sells guns can tell you that Glocks are by far their best seller (if they sell Glocks).
Matt
Glock has at points in the past had issues with guns breaking because of metallurgy. I know that the DOE had some issues along those lines with .40 caliber pistols they purchased.
Still, most of the .40 caliber Glock problems haven't been the result of metallurgy issues.
it seems to me the root of the glock 40 issue is the fact that they stuffed 40 cal into a 9mm gun. the chamber walls are thinner just due to space constraints.
i'd probably own a glock 40 for the right price... the stretched bit at the bottom of the casings freaks me out a little though...
I was sitting down today after I went to the range and cleaning my handguns. I just got a new P30 and have noticed the polymer doesn't seem as rigid as the Glock. Every time I do a search on any handgun I always get the "vs" thread which always seems to be a personal preference for the most part.
one thing to keep in mind is rigid and durable aren't the same thing. look at alloy framed handguns vs polymer... mostly any polymer gun on the market (HK, Glock, M&P's etc) will go 50,000+ rounds no problem. definitely not as rigid as an allow frame, but a lot of manufacturers of alloy 1911's and such say 30k.
your p30 probably uses a more flexible polymer because that's what the gurus at HK felt would give that particular design the best shooting characteristics and longest service life.
I don't know if the current strikers are MIM or not, but you can generally identify them easily by color, they are silver and not coated black.
S&W is on GEN 5 for their strikers. They tell me that they have performed over 70,000 dry fires without issue.
So the broken striker issue from dry firing is no long a problem.
C4
QuietShootr
04-03-10, 22:23
S&W is on GEN 5 for their strikers. They tell me that they have performed over 70,000 dry fires without issue.
So the broken striker issue from dry firing is no long a problem.
C4
Do I just have to buy a new striker from them to get the latest one, or are they doing upgrades?
I was sitting down today after I went to the range and cleaning my handguns. I just got a new P30 and have noticed the polymer doesn't seem as rigid as the Glock. Every time I do a search on any handgun I always get the "vs" thread which always seems to be a personal preference for the most part.
That's odd. I've noticed the opposite. My Glock frame is flexible/bendable and my P30 frame feels closer to a metal frame in it's sturdiness.
Business_Casual
04-04-10, 08:31
it seems to me the root of the glock 40 issue is the fact that they stuffed 40 cal into a 9mm gun. the chamber walls are thinner just due to space constraints.
i'd probably own a glock 40 for the right price... the stretched bit at the bottom of the casings freaks me out a little though...
The 9mm and 40 S&W have the exact same SAAMI pressure (35,000 in/lbs). So the explanation lies elsewhere, in my opinion. But I am not an engineer by any means.
M_P
If the MIM strikers in the M&P's were not a problem then S&W would not be on their 3rd or 4th redesign of it with the most current one made out of SS.
He was speaking more in generalities about MIM than on a particular part on a particular pistol.
It's possible to design and manufacture a MIM part (again, generally, not talking about the M&P striker in particular) so that it is sufficient for the loads that it will see. Likewise, it's possible to design a space age uber-alloy steel part without a sufficient factor of safety so that it will be likely to fail.
G34Shooter
04-04-10, 09:22
He was speaking more in generalities about MIM than on a particular part on a particular pistol.
It's possible to design and manufacture a MIM part (again, generally, not talking about the M&P striker in particular) so that it is sufficient for the loads that it will see. Likewise, it's possible to design a space age uber-alloy steel part without a sufficient factor of safety so that it will be likely to fail.
I understand that, but I'd take a well built uber-alloy part over a well built MIM part any day... The M&P striker was just a perfect example as they made 3 or so redesigns in MIM before switching to a different design.
Now to quote 2 of the more knowledgeable people on the subject with their identities removed as they can step in if they like:
MIM is Metal Injection Molding. A process where molten metal is forced into a mold to form the shape of the desired part.
The Problem with MIM parts is that to be able to inject the metal they generally mix in a bit of silicate into the steel that makes the metal less dense and therefore less durable. The presence of non carbon bearing materials means that heat treating doesn't work as well, which means parts are softer than they may need to be.
On a high stress part like the Sear or Striker, this is a bad thing because the parts are more prone to breakage.
]Because I am old school, I have no love for MIM components which would be placed under high stress (firing pins, extractors, hammers or sears,etc.). BUT the MIM processes and material/density characteristics are improving as time goes on.
There may be a day when I trust MIM parts. I'm trying to keep an open mind. But in the meantime, we will proceed with making a billet, fully machined shock-proof steel striker...
The 9mm and 40 S&W have the exact same SAAMI pressure (35,000 in/lbs). So the explanation lies elsewhere, in my opinion. But I am not an engineer by any means.
M_P
you have to reduce chamber thickness to fit a 40 barrel into a 9 slide. i doubt they opened up the slide's inside dimensions... correct me if i'm wrong.
they cut the feed ramp into the chamber too on the glocks.
not to mention using the same recoil spring across the board..
it works pretty well honestly, but it's not ideal.
MarshallDodge
04-04-10, 14:46
I am a degreed engineer. I have worked as a manufacturing engineer and engineering manager in a variety of assembly and manufacturing companies for the last 15 years.
I don't get my panties in a bunch over the differences between 4140 and 4150 steel (the differences are utterly irrelevant in semi auto rifles). I marvel at all the hammer-forging fanboys and their ignorant rantings about how hammer forged barrels are "better" (they are not, or Krieger would use the process). I really don't GAF about the exact formulation of Glock's polymer vs S&W's, vs HK. Nor do I GAF if there are MIM parts in my handguns (I've shot and dry fired the ever loving shit out of S&W wheelguns full of MIM and they still run like a swiss clock).
In short, I buy high quality firearms, shoot the crap out of them, and fix them if they break. I don't sweat stupid shit like what steel alloy they used on my barrel.
I love it when a tried and true engineer speaks up. :cool:
"The 9mm and 40 S&W have the exact same SAAMI pressure (35,000 in/lbs). "
The pressure is only one factor.
The hoop stress in a tube (barrel or barrel chamber) = PD/2T
The "P" would be the 35K. The "D" is the size of the hole and "T" is the wall thickness. If the outside of the barrel/chamber is the same size for a .40 as for a 9mm chambering, then, the material needs to have a higher strength (there are multiple criteria to consider) for the same margin of safety. If the material is the same, and heat treated the same, etc. Then the .40 would have a lower design margin of safety.
Knowing the above, the weak point in the chamber wall in the failure picture above is obvious.
Sorry for the minor digression into the weeds.
"The 9mm and 40 S&W have the exact same SAAMI pressure (35,000 in/lbs). "
The pressure is only one factor.
The hoop stress in a tube (barrel or barrel chamber) = PD/2T
The "P" would be the 35K. The "D" is the size of the hole and "T" is the wall thickness. If the outside of the barrel/chamber is the same size for a .40 as for a 9mm chambering, then, the material needs to have a higher strength (there are multiple criteria to consider) for the same margin of safety. If the material is the same, and heat treated the same, etc. Then the .40 would have a lower design margin of safety.
Knowing the above, the weak point in the chamber wall in the failure picture above is obvious.
Sorry for the minor digression into the weeds.
i believe the outside of the barrel is larger diameter on the 40 glocks than the 9's. i'd love if somebody would measure the outside of the chamber area of a 40 and a 9 though... i don't have a 40 handy... but....
glock 19 is .600 side to side on the outside of the chamber. can't really get a good measurement the other way due to the locking lug.
the OD of the 9mm barrel is .570.
you'd actually need a thicker barrel wall to have the same margin of safety on a 40 right? with more internal surface area and all...
Yes, but.... This all starts getting really complicated, really fast. I don't think we should start trying to reverse engineer our pistols in an internet discussion....
I was just trying to point out a little detail when comparing pistols/calibers and how the operating pressure is just one variable among many.. But, yes, you would need a thicker wall to have the same stress level with a larger hole at an equivalent internal pressure.
It is up to the gun company's design engineers to determine the materials (as pointed out a few posts up) and to determine, based on detailed analysis, exactly what margins they are comfortable with in each area of consideration, for their unique gun design.
Yes, but.... This all starts getting really complicated, really fast. I don't think we should start trying to reverse engineer our pistols in an internet discussion....
I was just trying to point out a little detail when comparing pistols/calibers and how the operating pressure is just one variable among many.. But, yes, you would need a thicker wall to have the same stress level with a larger hole at an equivalent internal pressure.
It is up to the gun company's design engineers to determine the materials (as pointed out a few posts up) and to determine, based on detailed analysis, exactly what margins they are comfortable with in each area of consideration, for their unique gun design.
true, i was just hoping to settle something i'm curious about...
Do I just have to buy a new striker from them to get the latest one, or are they doing upgrades?
Yes, you will need to buy it.
I am on a 2nd generation striker (no issues).
We are going to stock the GEN 5 Strikers.
C4
About the only "ill" comments I have ever seen about Glock barrels is the poly rifling and people don't use lead reloads.
And the rigidity of the plastic would only be a concern if there were problems like a few Glocks had with weapon lights. But most of those were mag related as it turns out.
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