View Full Version : Problems with M&P9 mags jamming
Sorry for the bad choice of words, but I have been experiencing problems with my M&P9mm's mags with rounds getting wedged together in the magazine and with the follower getting stuck. This happened with two different magazines and I am wondering if anyone has experienced anything similar.
I had one situation where I loaded an M&P mag to 17 rounds and had the follower stick. So I just load the mags to 16 rounds. I discovered this when I dropped a mag from the gun to practice dry firing and a loose round fell out of the magazine well.
When I looked down at the dropped magazine, I noticed that the top round in it was bottom side up with the primer side facing me. I figured out what happened. It seems after loading the 17 rounds in the magazine, the follower stuck in the bottom so that when I chambered the first round the mag no longer had spring tension holding the rounds in the mag. Thus when I dropped the mag from the gun the top round fell out of the magazine since there was no spring pressure holding it in. But when the magazine hit the carpet it jarred the follower and made it snap back. But since the top round is not held in firmly by spring pressure, when the spring snapped back that round wound up snapped into a wierd position with the base facing up in the magazine. This happened a few months ago. The ammo was Winchester Ranger.
Then a few weeks ago I was loading a different magazine for the gun with Black Hills and I noticed that the loaded rounds were rattling in the magazine. So I removed a few rounds from the magazine and found that two of the rounds in the magazine had wedged themselves together side by side.
Below are some pictures I took of what it looked like. A simple rap on the bottom did nothing. It is hard to tell what is going on, but bear in mind, the rounds are locked together about an inch down into the magazine and got that way during normal magazine loading.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/badmag1.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/badmag2.jpg
I've never had this happen with a handgun before, but I have had it occur twice with the M&P with two different magazines.
Since taking the picture of the magazine, I stuck my finger in to feel it and the rounds got dislodged. I probably should have left it as it occurred without risking it getting undone.
I am wondering if anyone experienced anything similar.
thanks.
I have had the follower stick in several m&p 9mm mags after installing 5 rd extended base plates. I have only had it happen once with a 17 rd mag. In my case the front of the follower got hung. I trimmed the front corners of the follower and have not had any more problems.
On a side note; I have noticed that some newer m&p followers are already more rounded on the front corners than came on my initial batch.
Can you post a pic of your follower?
John_Wayne777
04-06-10, 06:41
My first suggestion would be to take one of the suspect mags, take it apart, and carefully examine the follower and the mag tube. Beretta magazines were bad about getting a sticky follower when the mag was dirty and the mag spring was relatively weak.
S&W has changed the followers in the 9mm mags twice. The new ones have a "9" on top. They have also changed to heavier mag springs.
I have idea if this is your problem or not but it would be the first thing I would try.
I am wondering if anyone experienced anything similar.
Yep, I've seen that too. I saw it happen with the really old black follower mags a few times. I only saw one or two occasions where the rounds bound up in the mag, but I saw multiple instances where, when dropping a partially loaded mag, the remaining rounds in the mag would flip and require magazine dissassembly to fix. Since I've changed to the grey followers, I don't think I've seen it but I have heard the bullets rattle in the mag.
I haven't seen the new followers or mag springs. I want some of both though, particularly the springs.
I kinda think Glock mags have me spoiled. I get annoyed by the fact that I have to maintain my M&P mags.
I kinda think Glock mags have me spoiled. I get annoyed by the fact that I have to maintain my M&P mags.
It's funny you mention that. Part of what I liked about the M&P over Glock was the metal magazine. It goes in and out of the magwell much better than plastic on plastic. Nearly all of my Glock mags need a smack on my hand to fit the last round in the mag, I've heard that called the Austrian smack...
My Glock mag never rust. My M&P mags do.
I agree that the last round is hard to get in there. I stopped trying a few years ago. 14 rds is good enough. I believe LAV recommends leaving 1 rd out of Glock mags as well.
My Glock mag never rust. My M&P mags do.
Good point, but the plastic does crack, but probably not at the same rate.
S&W has changed the followers in the 9mm mags twice. The new ones have a "9" on top. They have also changed to heavier mag springs.
I have idea if this is your problem or not but it would be the first thing I would try.
Thanks,
My mags date back to late 2008/early 2009 and do not have the number 9 on the follower.
Attached is a pic of the problem follower:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/magfollower.jpg
I can sympathize. I had this problem with a HK polymer 9mm USP magazine - and it really affected my confidence in the weapon after it happened. I had HK replace the entire mag.
I'd contact S&W and see if they will swop the mags. If there is a difference in the newer followers, youa re likely to get the newer version in the replacement mags.
Yup, Shipwreck, it would seem that as soon as I started really liking the gun it would do something else. I had never had rounds stick in a mag like that or the follower stick, and here I had encountered it twice with 2 different mags.
Thanks, guys.
I contacted S&W and new followers are on the way since the ones I have are not the latest.
I also ordered some ISMI extra poewer springs.
Yup, Shipwreck, it would seem that as soon as I started really liking the gun it would do something else. I had never had rounds stick in a mag like that or the follower stick, and here I had encountered it twice with 2 different mags.
Thanks, guys.
I contacted S&W and new followers are on the way since the ones I have are not the latest.
I also ordered some ISMI extra poewer springs.
Good luck with that. In my case, I just didn't trust that HK after that - and it was a mag issue - not the gun itself (the gun worked 100%). I just kept thinking, "what if it happens again." I too had never seen this occur before until that incident.
Good luck with that. In my case, I just didn't trust that HK after that - and it was a mag issue - not the gun itself (the gun worked 100%). I just kept thinking, "what if it happens again." I too had never seen this occur before until that incident.
In my case the fact that it happened one time I wrote off as a fluke and removed that mag from circulation. When it happened again I got nervous--especially since I had never had that happen with any other guns mag's before.
It happened to me on my very 1st mag out of a new M&P9C. Only happened once & a tap remedied mine. I have the current #9 followers.
Well, it happened again.
After it happened on two occasions with two different magazines I changed the mag followers to updated ones and put extra strength ISMI mag springs in. I thought that solved the problem, but today I was shooting the M&P and it happened again with a different magazine than the other times.
Here is what the magazine looked like when I removed it from the gun. You can see that the top round is loose and not being pushed up against the feed lips:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/badmag1-1.jpg
Here are some other pictures down into the magazine that shows the rounds lodged together:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/badmag2-1.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/badmag3-1.jpg
I had this happen to me once in an HK USP mag. My ammo was rough and somewhat corroded in spots, I think this is what contributed to the hangups.If the mags arent bent,have no obstructions on the inside, the follower flows smoothly thru a dissasembled mag, and the ammo is clean,I can't imagine what the problem is.
Stupid question, but...
Have you cleaned the magazines?
What I'd do if I was you, is take off the floor plate and examine inside the magazine. Since it seems it can't be the follower or spring tension (both were replaced) that really on leaves one alternative that'd make sense to me, the magazine body, the floor plate is the only remaining part, but there's no way that I think that could be distorted/damaged in such a way as to not give successful spring tension.
I'd check the inside of the magazine see if there is something that the followers could catch on maybe an unfinished portion, a patch of rust, some rough portion just enough to catch it in place or cant the follower...
Again stupid question, have you had this problem with any of the other magazines that you own or just these two?
I assume you number/mark them.
I just had an idea... and honestly, again, amateur speculating. I've noticed in M&P's they have holes in the sides of the magazines to give you a round count on how many rounds are left in the magazine, I might check the followers to see if there's any wear/indication of wear consistent with those holes, see if there's anywhere they could be catching, a portion of the follower could possibly be getting stuck in one of those holes?
Also is this isolated to only those two magazines?
I'd get in touch with S&W and just ask them frankly A) have their been any changes to the magazine body's dimensions internally since you bought them or B) If you don't feel like troubleshooting it, tell them the issue, it sounds like they'll take care of you, i.e., ask for replacements.
The follower getting seems to be stuck on something is the only explanation I could think of, because clearly the rounds are held with absolutely no tension by the magazine at times.
Maybe even an unmachined portion, I might get a flash light and have a look inside that magazine body.
Did S&W alter the mag body when they upgraded the follower?
This has happened with three different magazines--two with the standard springs and the old style followers and one with the new followers and extra power springs. I do number all my mags for all guns.
I checked with S&W and they said that the mag bodies were the same and only the followers had changed.
The two older mags that had this issue were sent to Smith & Wesson and replaced.
I am going to leave the jammed rounds intact in the mag and have a board member who is more knowledgeable than me take a look at this magazine.
It seems to me that the rounds are wedged against each other and it is not a matter of the follower being stuck. This raises the question how did the rounds get wedged together and what is it about the magazine design that allows this to happen. I've never seen this happen with any other magazine and it has happened three times with three different M&P9 mags.
It's a long shot, but I assume this happens with multiple types of ammo?
The seemingly apparent answer is that the indentions that runs the length of the magazine are too shallow, and downward pressure on the stack allows one of the rounds to rotate too far toward the outside of the magazine, thus wedging it against the next round in the stack. I suppose if you're curious, you could mike it and compare to known good mags. For bonus points, I suppose you could compare it to a .40 mag, which probably has grooves which are suspiciously similar in depth. (In fact, I'm sure if interested parties wanted, they could load their .40 mags with 9mm ammo and at least some of them will reproduce this problem exactly.)
Did you purchase all 3 problem magazines around the same time, and if so are they all of the same type (i.e. older "blue" finish or newer matte finish)?
Edit: To be more clear, you've probably got a .40 mag that was marked 9mm. If someone has a .40 M&P mag, for shits and giggles they could load it with 9mm and rap it sharply on the floorplate. It will probably duplicate the "wedge" issue you're having (especially with an ISMI spring that's targeted toward extended magazines).
Edit2: Er, front the mag is marked 9mm and not 40, right?
Thanks, guys. I appreciate you suggestions and analysis.
The mags that it has happened with are indeed marked 9mm and it has happened with different types of ammo, including Winchester Ranger 124 grain +p JHPs, which has a nickle plated case. It has also happened with magazines purchased in different lots at different times.
I have about eight magazines for the gun that I rotate through, so it is not a matter of the mags being worn out.
It is hard to replicate becasue it has only occurred 3 times in like 7000 rounds so the erraticness of it.
But nevertheless, it does have the potential to turn the gun into a single shot if I needed it in a defensive situation.
Here is a picture of the magazine from a side angle. You can see round at an angle through the round through the number 7 round count hole and the mag catch hole which is below and in front of it.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/bagmag6.jpg
EzGoingKev
10-17-10, 19:37
Do you know if they are consistently binding up in same location each time?
That is a good question. Thanks!
Now that I think of it, the lodged rounds seemed to be in the same area. I don't know about the exact same place.
RogerinTPA
10-17-10, 22:54
Had the same thing happen to two M&P9 mags with the same gray followers, but only after passing the 9K mark. I inspected and cleaned the mag innards, spring and followers, which were very very dirty. Wiped everything down with a silicon rag, and have functioned fine since. I really need to incorporate my mags into my cleaning schedule on my pistols and clean them every 4-5K.
Looks like the binding occurs as the "double" column is narrowing to single column at the top of the mag (notice the binding occurs at the bottom of the "V"). So, I would bet that the binding does occur in the same place every time.
If it happens the same way, every time, then the groove on the right side of the magazine is probably too shallow (could test this with a micrometer) and the round on the right side of the stack has too much clearance, causing the round on the left side of the stack to bind (since the entire purpose of that "funnel" is to narrow the stack).
Replacement of your second revision follower with the latest revision (circle 9) may correct this issue. Since followers are cheap, I would try that first. I don't have any "gen 3/ circle 9/ whatever" followers to compare, but I noticed the first gray followers were different from my original black followers in that the protrusion on the left side was much taller. This would seem to be of some use in a failure such as yours, as it would prevent the right side cartridge from trying to outrace the left side cartridge. The newer followers probably do more of the same (i.e. are even taller).
If that makes any sense.
Looks like the binding occurs as the "double" column is narrowing to single column at the top of the mag (notice the binding occurs at the bottom of the "V"). So, I would bet that the binding does occur in the same place every time.
It seems to be a bit deeper than that. The rounds in this particular mag that have bound are at the number 6 and 7 holes, with the round at the number 7 hole being nose down. It seems that the number four and five round are at the bottom of the V.
Replacement of your second revision follower with the latest revision (circle 9) may correct this issue. Since followers are cheap, I would try that first. I don't have any "gen 3/ circle 9/ whatever" followers to compare, but I noticed the first gray followers were different from my original black followers in that the protrusion on the left side was much taller. This would seem to be of some use in a failure such as yours, as it would prevent the right side cartridge from trying to outrace the left side cartridge. The newer followers probably do more of the same (i.e. are even taller).
This latest example is with the gray followers with the number 9 on it as well as the stronger springs. The earlier two jams were with the older gray followers.
If that makes any sense.
It does and I appreciate your thoughts on this as well as those of the other posters.
It happens one time in every 2000 rounds or so. This isn't like a part wearing out it is more like a freak occurrance. That I could deal with. I had that happen with my striker spring.
Maybe many guns are so reliable these days that we are spoiled. But the erratic nature of this doesn't make me feel any better, especially since I ahve never had this happen with another gun.
I've had it happen but only when using a thumbloader. I don't know the mag rev level, I'll check tonight.
eta: rev 4 on the one follower I looked at
http://www.danpassaro.com/img/s5/v4/p80601088.jpg
http://www.danpassaro.com/img/s5/v4/p252534486.jpg
http://www.danpassaro.com/img/s9/v0/p406159565.jpg
It seems to be a bit deeper than that. The rounds in this particular mag that have bound are at the number 6 and 7 holes, with the round at the number 7 hole being nose down. It seems that the number four and five round are at the bottom of the V.
This latest example is with the gray followers with the number 9 on it as well as the stronger springs. The earlier two jams were with the older gray followers.
It does and I appreciate your thoughts on this as well as those of the other posters.
It happens one time in every 2000 rounds or so. This isn't like a part wearing out it is more like a freak occurrance. That I could deal with. I had that happen with my striker spring.
Maybe many guns are so reliable these days that we are spoiled. But the erratic nature of this doesn't make me feel any better, especially since I ahve never had this happen with another gun.
Yeah, that's weird. If I understand correctly:
It's happened with 2nd revision (gray, no "9" stamp) followers and factory springs in numerous magazines.
It's happened with 3rd revision (gray, "9" stamp) followers and extra power springs
The only thing that comes immediately to mind is all the extra power magazine springs I'm aware of (Brownells and Wolff, which may be the same) are specified for the extended base pads (e.g. Arredondo). If you can reproduce the error with a new factory spring the latest follower revision, then that does seem weird. I'd bring it to the factory's attention.
Wow, Danpass, looking at your pictures it looks like yours happened in just about the same place that mine did.
The only thing that comes immediately to mind is all the extra power magazine springs I'm aware of (Brownells and Wolff, which may be the same) are specified for the extended base pads (e.g. Arredondo). If you can reproduce the error with a new factory spring the latest follower revision, then that does seem weird. I'd bring it to the factory's attention.
This last time it happened with a magazine that had the followers with the number 9 on them and with the ISMI +10% springs.
As I said, I appreciate everyone's thoughts and experiences with this. If I didn't shoot the gun so well I would not care.
EzGoingKev
10-18-10, 16:45
That is a good question. Thanks!
Now that I think of it, the lodged rounds seemed to be in the same area. I don't know about the exact same place.
I would try to determine if the problem is occurring in the same location every time and focus on that part of the magazine.
Have you been in contact with S&W and if so, what did they advise?
I would try to determine if the problem is occurring in the same location every time and focus on that part of the magazine.
I did not document the other mags as carefully. The first time it happened, I thought it was a fluke.
The second time I got annoyed and did research and found out about updated followers and more powerful ISMI springs and implimented them.
I do believe that they happened in the same area. It looks like the other person's mags in this thread did.
Have you been in contact with S&W and if so, what did they advise?
I just returned the other two mags and got replacement.
I removed the bottom of the magazine, the spring, and the follower and the rounds stayed lodged, confirming it is an issue with the mag body.
Here is a picture I managed to take. It was impossible for me to get the rounds in perfect focus at the same time as the mag body.
In spite of the fact that it appears that the the tip of the round on the right is touching the inside front of the magazine, this is not the case. It just appears so from the angle of the photo. As I said, it is very hard to get a good shot of this.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/badmag7.jpg
So the only sure bet we have is to chunk the defective one's in the trash and shoot the good one's.:D Please let us know if S&W has any imput on this.
In all these pictures we can see that at least part of one round is able to get to the side of the other round, and thus they get jammed in the mag. In theory a mag shouldn't be wide enough to allow this to happen unless the diameter of the rounds is noticeably undersize, which is doubtful (has this happened with multiple types of ammo, both factory and reloads?). Either the mag is too wide, or the diameter of the ammo is too small....from the pictures it seems those are the only two possibilities. I'm guessing the mags are just too wide...send a couple to S&W and have them check the dimensions compared to a "good" mag, or do it yourself if you can. As I think someone mentioned, are the "grooves" not stamped in quite far enough into the sides?
Added after further thought and playing around a bit: Rounds tend to "rattle" around in the mags pretty noticeably. Rounds on the side of the mag with the even numbered holes can often stack touching each other (look in the holes and you can see the rounds touching). When this happens the round on the other side between the two is free to move back and forth, due to the width of the mag. If the mag were a bit narrower, two rounds on one side wouldn't be able to touch each other. I think that in order to get 17 rounds into the mag the inside width was increased just a bit too much, but on the other hand I've seen this happen with mags other than M&P9's, so it's not all that uncommon.
Since 9mm ammo is tapered, the front of the case is narrower than the base. If the mag is too wide relative to the front (narrow) part of the brass, the front of one round can move past a round next to it, causing them to wedge together. Perhaps it's a combination of rounds that have been sized/crimped down a bit to much at the front and a mag that's just slightly too wide between the side ribs and then there's trouble. One would hope that there was ample margin in the mag design so that it couldn't happen with a few thousands of an inch variation in mag and ammo dimensions, but maybe there really isn't.
Could this be a problem from dropping the mags during reload drills? Just a random thought.
Our issued guns at the academy were M&P 9's and several of us out of 40 someodd people had this problem. It was fairly intermittent but was a pain when it did happen. Someone else had a round somehow get underneath the follower (don't know how the hell that is physically possible but it happened), saw rounds flip inside the magazine and had problems when inserting a mag quickly. If you pushed a mag in with authority the slide would drop and the first round would fail to feed and get stuck vertically against the ramp. These guns and mags were beat like rented mules but I'd never seen those problems elsewhere until now-
Dropping partially loaded M&P mags on hard ground--at least with the M&P45--can cause different issues that are readily apparant--like bending the spring so that the follower tilts at a wierd angle. This happened in a class where we fired two rounds out of a magazine, dropped the mag, did a speed relaod, and fired two more mags.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/thatguymag.jpg
Relating to my original issue with the 9mm M&P mags that I started this thread about, I used calipers to measure the width of the problem mag and then did the same with all of my other mags. I found that they vere very close in width, with some mags. They ranged from about .86"-.87" with the problem mag measuring .865
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