View Full Version : How Accurate Of An AR15 Shooter Are You?
How accurately can you shoot your AR15? How many MOA?
1. With iron sights
2. With scope
3. While benched
4. While standing
5. While kneeling
6. While sitting
7. While prone
Some AR15s can shoot maybe 1 MOA, but I think few shooters can actually achieve this level of accuracy, especially with iron sights. I'm curious what the consensus is about how accurately a good shooter can shoot an AR15.
Jimmy
PRGGodfather
04-06-10, 15:40
At the end of the day, it's all about "minute of soccer ball." Anything tighter is usually slower, and doesn't really meet the incident of encounter -- unless we're just punching paper...
this is way too broad a topic to just pop numbers up in each of those
At the end of the day, it's all about "minute of soccer ball." Anything tighter is usually slower, and doesn't really meet the incident of encounter -- unless we're just punching paper...
Yeah here I'm talking mostly about just punching paper, not killing things.
It's like deja vu for those of us whomake the rounds to other forums, including TOS.
It's like deja vu for those of us whomake the rounds to other forums, including TOS.
+1. People who think "1 MOA" is a degree of accuracy obviously have either never shot competitively, or are simply regurgitating tacticool terms. Shooting 1" @ 100yds is relatively easy.
+1. People who think "1 MOA" is a degree of accuracy obviously have either never shot competitively, or are simply regurgitating tacticool terms. Shooting 1" @ 100yds is relatively easy.
And just to point out the technical aspects of this thread.
1 MOA on its own is not a measurement of accuracy. It is a measurement of precision.
Accuracy is defined by the results of a weapon system against a target's scoring system.
Precision is defined by the weapon system's reproducibility.
With 55gr ball ammo, many of my AR's are not capable of 1 MOA groups. With match ammo, some of them are.
I'm only pointing this out to mention that topic is a difficult one to answer in a well defined way.
I can shoot quarter inch groups every time.
Alright, I only shoot one-shot groups, but still.
RogerinTPA
04-06-10, 18:07
The topic is extremely subjective as far as the "type"of shooting (Traditional slow fire marksmanship vs Tactical) you are conducting and practicing for. Firearms (Stock vs Match Grade) and individual marksmanship skills, also are a huge factor. Most weapons, even stock, are far more accurate than most peoples ability to take advantage of.
from a rest, on irons sights, i used to manage 2-3" generally at 100 yards.
offhand i can hit a paper plate more or less every time at 100. :confused:
i've got pretty limited AR experience actually.. been really focused on the pistol the past year or so.
How accurately can you shoot your AR15? How many MOA?
1. With iron sights
bench on a bag, no rear bag, 1moa
Standing 5-6moa no sling
never did kneeling
sitting 3moa with sling
prone 2moa with sling
2. With scope
bench 1moa
prone 1moa
my scoped AR has a bipod
3. While benched
4. While standing
5. While kneeling
6. While sitting
7. While prone
Some AR15s can shoot maybe 1 MOA, but I think few shooters can actually achieve this level of accuracy, especially with iron sights. I'm curious what the consensus is about how accurately a good shooter can shoot an AR15.
Jimmy
1moa needs match barrel AND match ammo
our club pres, an NRA high master, can shoot 1.5-2moa standing, iron sights
Accurate enough to hit man or zombie-sized targets out to 300 yards...anything beyond that is a crapshoot.
ICANHITHIMMAN
04-06-10, 20:10
I can shoot one hole groups with anything you mentioned I just keep the holes spreed out:D
+1. People who think "1 MOA" is a degree of accuracy obviously have either never shot competitively, or are simply regurgitating tacticool terms. Shooting 1" @ 100yds is relatively easy.
I tend to agree but will also add that very few people can really shoot 1" at 100 yards with their AR. Between the weapons, ammo, sights or scopes, triggers and the nut bewhind the trigger I'd say 1 in 10 can consistently accomplish this.
When it comes to my AR15s, I do quarter-sized groupings out to 50m - sure, easy feat and I'm certainly not boasting, but for zombie and home defense, I don't feel the need to shoot further out.
+1. People who think "1 MOA" is a degree of accuracy obviously have either never shot competitively, or are simply regurgitating tacticool terms. Shooting 1" @ 100yds is relatively easy.
I call BS. 1" @ 100 yards is easy maybe if you have your rifle clamped in a bench rest, there's no wind, you're using a match barrel, good ammo, and using a scope.
In real-world scenarios I haven't seen a whole lot of people who can really shoot 1" @ 100 yards. Let's see pics of your 1", 100 yard groups.
I call BS. 1" @ 100 yards is easy maybe if you have your rifle clamped in a bench rest, there's no wind, you're using a match barrel, good ammo, and using a scope.
In real-world scenarios I haven't seen a whole lot of people who can really shoot 1" @ 100 yards. Let's see pics of your 1", 100 yard groups.
You seriously think that 1" @ 100yds is "brag-worthy?" Ummm... lol.
You don't need to clamp a rifle to a benchrest - it's all about breathing and your trigger pull, along with a quality rifle.
What's funny is that you're taking two separate arguments, one for accuracy and one for combat-efficiency... and you're making no sense whatsoever, as others have alluded to.
If you care about combat-accuracy, all you have to do is hit an 8" circle, which is VERY easy out to... 600yds (and even that greater than 1" per 100yds), which is something any decent shooter can do. Moreso, you'd have an M68 or RCO for making the kill (since this is a question of combat efficiency). If you want to brag about precision offhand, then you'd have a National Match AR15/M16, a professional shooting jacket, etc. - a completely different setup. It's like you want to brag about being "the most accurate guy using the most inaccurate shooting techniques." Really, who cares? Either you can make a kill-shot when it matters, or you can't - how small of a group you shot doesn't matter.
1 MOA is widely accepted as the good vs. average line for a barrel / rifle setup and ANYONE can make the shot with a top-tier Noveske, BCM, Centurion, etc. You DON'T need a clamped down rifle, you DON'T need a scope, and you sure as heck don't need a match barrel. Again, most here know that. You apparently don't.
Actually making that 1" isn't brag-worthy, it just means you have a good rifle that can perform what countless others have done. Shoot 3/4" or 1/2", then you might actually be a "good shot."
ETA: And yes, I've shot sub-MOA before using my Noveske Recon with 75gr Prvi-Partizan BTJHP, both offhand and off a sandbag @ 150yds. No, it's NOT hard if you know what you're doing. Next time I go to the range, I'll be sure to take photos.
You seriously think that 1" @ 100yds is "brag-worthy?" Ummm... lol.
You don't need to clamp a rifle to a benchrest - it's all about breathing and your trigger pull, along with a quality rifle.
What's funny is that you're taking two separate arguments, one for accuracy and one for combat-efficiency... and you're making no sense whatsoever, as others have alluded to.
If you care about combat-accuracy, all you have to do is hit an 8" circle, which is VERY easy out to... 600yds (and even that greater than 1" per 100yds), which is something any decent shooter can do. Moreso, you'd have an M68 or RCO for making the kill (since this is a question of combat efficiency). If you want to brag about precision offhand, then you'd have a National Match AR15/M16, a professional shooting jacket, etc. - a completely different setup. It's like you want to brag about being "the most accurate guy using the most inaccurate shooting techniques." Really, who cares? Either you can make a kill-shot when it matters, or you can't - how small of a group you shot doesn't matter.
1 MOA is widely accepted as the good vs. average line for a barrel / rifle setup and ANYONE can make the shot with a top-tier Noveske, BCM, Centurion, etc. You DON'T need a clamped down rifle, you DON'T need a scope, and you sure as heck don't need a match barrel. Again, most here know that. You apparently don't.
Actually making that 1" isn't brag-worthy, it just means you have a good rifle that can perform what countless others have done. Shoot 3/4" or 1/2", then you might actually be a "good shot."
ETA: And yes, I've shot sub-MOA before using my Noveske Recon with 75gr Prvi-Partizan BTJHP, both offhand and off a sandbag @ 150yds. No, it's NOT hard if you know what you're doing. Next time I go to the range, I'll be sure to take photos.
I appreciate your input but you're making this way more complicated than it needs to be. One guy is talking "accuracy" vs. "precision", you're talking accuracy vs. "combat-efficiency" and so on. All I asked is what kind of groups do y'all typically shoot.
If someone wants to get into the standard deviation of their strikes or argue the validity of shooting holes in paper vs. doing combat drills that's cool, go for it. All I was asking is if you set up in the field and start pulling the trigger and smoking that motherf*cker, in general what kind of groups do you get, simple as that.
Don't get your knickers in a knot, it's cool man. Honestly I still don't buy that you easily shoot 1" at 100 yards without a bench or a scope, but if you want to post some pictorial proof I look forward to seeing it.
JH
One guy is talking "accuracy" vs. "precision", you're talking accuracy vs. "combat-efficiency"
Yes, I am, because you said, quote:
All I was asking is if you set up in the field and start pulling the trigger and smoking that motherf*cker, in general what kind of groups do you get, simple as that.
If I'm aiming to kill something or someone, I neither care nor try to make small groups, and neither will anyone who's telling the truth here. Your post is echoing exactly what I said. Making small groups has NOTHING to do with making a shot off-hand. Why ANYONE would casually pick a target then shoot offhand, then measure their group size makes no sense.
Measuring groups is for precision. If I want to make small groups, I'll take my time and place my shots. If I want to shoot offhand, I don't care what my precision is because my goal is to HIT the target - if I wanted to make small groups, I'd have made sure I had every advantage for precision, including a rest, scope, etc. The shooting you're describing is measured by accuracy, yet you're asking for precision measurements - NO serious shooter is going to even bother based on your pretenses.
When I actually aim to shoot small groups, I shoot < 1", both with and without irons; and yes, it's very easy with the right ammo. I also have over $4,500 invested in my main AR, so feel free to call me on the B.S. factor again.
1 MOA at 100m requires the ability to SEE 1 inch at 100m, and aim at the dead center of it.
I guess i'll be the first to admit there's no way in HADES i can shoot 1 MOA groups at 100m... i can barely see my 1" dot stickers at 50m, and I have "perfect" vision. i wouldn't call bullshit on anyone who claims to be able to, but i'd definitely say "put your money where your mouth is," and pull out the wallet.
1 MOA at 100m with a magnified optic, and a weapon capable of 1 minute- sure thing. that's really not that difficult, and these days, even a lot of chrome-lined barrels can achieve that with relative ease.
furthermore.... the group number is critically important here, as well. a correct 10-shot group is significantly harder to group than a 5. and most people are usually talking about 3.
1 MOA at 100m requires the ability to SEE 1 inch at 100m, and aim at the dead center of it.
I guess i'll be the first to admit there's no way in HADES i can shoot 1 MOA groups at 100m... i can barely see my 1" dot stickers at 50m, and I have "perfect" vision.
So you have 20/10 (I do)? 20/20 is not "perfect" - it's average. Not looking to argue, I'm just saying that few people know that there's actually better vision than 20/20.
furthermore.... the group number is critically important here, as well. a correct 10-shot group is significantly harder to group than a 5. and most people are usually talking about 3.
Yep. +1. I will say that holding MOA or better is hard past 5-round groups, but not impossible.
Yes, I am, because you said, quote:
If I'm aiming to kill something or someone, I neither care nor try to make small groups, and neither will anyone who's telling the truth here. Your post is echoing exactly what I said. Making small groups has NOTHING to do with making a shot off-hand. Why ANYONE would casually pick a target then shoot offhand, then measure their group size makes no sense.
Measuring groups is for precision. If I want to make small groups, I'll take my time and place my shots. If I want to shoot offhand, I don't care what my precision is because my goal is to HIT the target - if I wanted to make small groups, I'd have made sure I had every advantage for precision, including a rest, scope, etc. The shooting you're describing is measured by accuracy, yet you're asking for precision measurements - NO serious shooter is going to even bother based on your pretenses.
When I actually aim to shoot small groups, I shoot < 1", both with and without irons; and yes, it's very easy with the right ammo. I also have over $4,500 invested in my main AR, so feel free to call me on the B.S. factor again.
Yes yes we all get it. Point taken about accuracy vs. precision. Accuracy is coming close to hitting the desired target. Precision is having each shot strike near the same place, even if the points of impact are far away from the desired target.
In the terminology you like to use my question is mostly one of precision... okay?
Thanks for the invitation to call BS on you again, I accept. I still doubt that you can easily shoot 1 MOA without a bench or scope, even with $4500 in the gun.
RRA NM A2 off the bench, front rest, no sling
http://www.danpassaro.com/img/v8/p459644993-4.jpg
I can hit a basketball at:
500m prone and parade sling
300m sitting
40m kneeling in armor
25m standing in armor
This is M855 through an issue A4, but the limiting factor is aft of the buttstock.
So you have 20/10 (I do)? 20/20 is not "perfect" - it's average. Not looking to argue, I'm just saying that few people know that there's actually better vision than 20/20.
i say "perfect," and quote it, because thats what i was told at my last test. if you want to get technical in the middle of this thread, the 20' tests are pass/fail, so simply because one passes the 20/20 test doesn't mean they have "20/20 vision," nor that they're limited to that level of visual acuity, and the same for 20/10. IIRC, "average" vision for "healthy" eyes is actually 20/14 or so, if you were to break it down. these people can pass 20/20, but will fail 20/10.
it's "normal" for a healthy-eyed individual to pass the 20/20, but is not an average, and most people are not "healthy-eyed."
the visual acuity tests are just markers, not precise measurements of vision... therefor there is no literal "perfect vision," as there is no established maximum.
my only point was: i have good vision, and i can't see well enough to shoot 1 minute at 100m with irons.
1 MOA at 100m requires the ability to SEE 1 inch at 100m, and aim at the dead center of it.
Umm, I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you there, and if that's how you're going about it, it's probably why "there's no way in HADES" you can shoot a1MOA group.
I regularly post expert scores in HP matches with both my free-floated ARs (5.56 and 6.8) and I can assure you, I cannot "see" and center my post on 1" at 100yds, let alone 2-300. What I can do is put my front sight post at the same point below the "fuzzy gray dot" consistently enough to shoot a decent group if I do my part with trigger and breathing control and position. Consistency is the key.
I must confess that at 44yrs of age, my particular brand of astigmatism is almost beneficial to rifle shooting (at least with peep sights) as my best focal point happens to coincide with the front sight radius. As a result, I am not tempted to bounce my focus between the sight post and target. I just naturally focus on the front sight and concentrate on the other variables.
Pretty much keep em all in the kill zone
John_Wayne777
04-07-10, 07:06
1 MOA at 100m requires the ability to SEE 1 inch at 100m, and aim at the dead center of it.
Not really. You simply have to be able to see well enough to pick a consistent aiming point on the target and have good enough fundamentals to break the shot without disrupting the point of aim. Offhand I'm unlikely to shoot 1 MOA with an AR-15. If I managed to shoot 1 MOA or under offhand I would instantly put the rifle away and go buy myself a lottery ticket. From a decent rest with a rifle/ammo combo that's capable of shooting those type of groups (which is going to be the bigger challenge, I would imagine) I could probably pull it off.
Personally, I spend about 0 minutes worrying about the MOA of my rifle/ammo combination since it's exceedingly rare for me to take a shot beyond 100 yards. Even then, I have yet to actually miss a target because my gun/ammo were not up to the job. Unfortunately every miss I've ever made has been 100% my fault.
As to the original question:
It's utterly useless to ask how "accurate" somebody is with an AR-15 absent any sort of standards used to judge accuracy. If there was perhaps a course of fire to use as a reference the question might have some utility. I'll use pistol shooting to show what I mean:
How "accurate" are you with a pistol?
....is a big, open question. How are you defining accuracy here? Are you talking about 25 yard bullseye or something like the FAST drill?
When shooting at my own pace I can be "accurate":
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05190002AmericaNew_York2010.jpg
Short range (under 10 yards)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05185842AmericaNew_York2010.jpg
25 yards
So what does that prove? Absolutely nothing other than that on a good day when going at my own pace I can properly align the sights and properly press the trigger to the rear without disturbing the sight picture. Place me under a time constraint where I'm not shooting at my pace and I'm having to worry about more than just the fundamental skills of sight alignment and trigger control and I sure as hell won't be taking any pictures of the results. The pictures indicate my peak performance under my ideal conditions....nothing more.
To determine my skill level with a pistol it is much more useful to use some standardized drills. The one time I shot the Hackathorn standards, for instance, I scored a 242...by no means a stellar performance. On Ken's 3 second head shot standards I generally barely pass. On the "test" (10 shots at 10 yards in 10 seconds) I generally perform extremely well. On the FAST drill I usually suck donkey balls. With those standards I can measure my performance against others and the viewer can conclude that I can generally exhibit reasonably decent accuracy when I'm at a comfortable pace, but that I fall apart completely when pushed by difficult time constraints.
Absent those kind of standards it would be easy for me to post the pictures above and make it look like I'm a human ransom rest. (Those who have shot with me know better.)
...so if you really want an answer to the question, define some standards. Knowledgeable people will then be able to tell you if your standards are worth anything.
I'm new to ARs and managed to keep most of my rounds in a centered 3-inch group at 100 yards after sighting in my Colt 6920. This is shooting 55g Federals from a rest using an Aimpoint ML2 optic. My groups with iron sights were roughly the same. Although this is nothing special by competitive standards, the range officers indicated that only a handful of their rifle shooters do much better without magnification. I'm betting that a lot of the members of this site fall into the elite category at their respective ranges.
MarshallDodge
04-07-10, 08:59
Years ago I was into varmint hunting and had a custom AR built that I could consistently shoot dime sized 5-shot groups at 100 yards.
I have never benched my carbine to see what it could do. A few years ago we were out with some friends shooting at a 100 yard range. I got out my carbine/Aimpoint setup and while standing, could consistenly hit the 4" steel plates that were at the 100 yard line. I was kind of proud of myself until my buddies 15 year old daughter picked up his 20" A2 RRA and started doing the same thing....with iron sights :eek:
Two inch groups at 100 yards with iron sights using a Carbine with a 16 inch barrel and federal xm193. ammo.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-07-10, 19:15
I consider myself a decent shot and I cannot regularly shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards. I shoot Wal mart brand 55 grain ammo and use a 2 or 4 moa aimpoint. My groups are usually in the low twos. I have shot one inch groups, but it usually involved a bag rest, better ammo, and luck.
How accurately can you shoot your AR15? How many MOA?
1. With iron sights
2. With scope
3. While benched
4. While standing
5. While kneeling
6. While sitting
7. While prone
Some AR15s can shoot maybe 1 MOA, but I think few shooters can actually achieve this level of accuracy, especially with iron sights. I'm curious what the consensus is about how accurately a good shooter can shoot an AR15.
Jimmy
I want to know this information also.
I lost access to my good range before I could deturmine this information for my ARs.
I can tell you about benching an AK with iron sights. :D
I tend to agree but will also add that very few people can really shoot 1" at 100 yards with their AR. Between the weapons, ammo, sights or scopes, triggers and the nut bewhind the trigger I'd say 1 in 10 can consistently accomplish this.
I agree but think you may be guilty of over generosity with your percentages.
mnagant762
04-08-10, 07:45
I'm normally good for about 1 MOC (minute of cat) @ 100 yards standing with irons. :D
rifleman2000
04-08-10, 09:41
Umm, I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you there, and if that's how you're going about it, it's probably why "there's no way in HADES" you can shoot a1MOA group.
I regularly post expert scores in HP matches with both my free-floated ARs (5.56 and 6.8) and I can assure you, I cannot "see" and center my post on 1" at 100yds, let alone 2-300. What I can do is put my front sight post at the same point below the "fuzzy gray dot" consistently enough to shoot a decent group if I do my part with trigger and breathing control and position. Consistency is the key.
I must confess that at 44yrs of age, my particular brand of astigmatism is almost beneficial to rifle shooting (at least with peep sights) as my best focal point happens to coincide with the front sight radius. As a result, I am not tempted to bounce my focus between the sight post and target. I just naturally focus on the front sight and concentrate on the other variables.
This is what I do, from prone I can keep 55 grain NATO in a 2-3 inch group at worst at 100 yards with iron sights and a red dot (no magnification).
FMJs-of-Freedom
04-08-10, 10:37
I try to focus on combat style shooting not measuring groups. FMJs-of-Freedom
I hit a 20 inch target out to 500 yards, Rifleman standard. So at 10 yard line thats a hmm 80 MOA group and at 500 thats 4 moa.
:)
joshua79109
04-08-10, 11:07
In my opinion it's a good thing to be able to shoot accurately. I consider accurately to be between 1" and 1.5" at 100 yards with no stress and good conditions.
I believe that learning the skills to be able to do this helps us when we are out shooting for real - movement, stress, weather, two way range, fog of war, etc....
My opinion has always been that one of the best ways to learn the fundamentals is through slow controlled precision shooting. Then moving on to quick fire while maintaining accuracy that will get the desired results against the specific target - be it a running coyote, deer, human, paper, etc.....
I personally do not find it difficult to get 1" to 1.5" groups at 100 yards with a quality AR, good ammo, and decent weather. This is from the prone position supported by a pack, sandbag, bipod, etc.... When I drop the support I usually open up some and go to about 1.5" to 2" at 100 yards. This is true for me regardless of the sights used. I get similar results with my 2 moa Aimpoints or iron sights. I can tighten up my groups when I go to a nice scope like my 10X scope.
I have read posts before where folks will say that with a 2 moa dot the best group a person can get is 2 moa. I have never found this to be true myself. I find that it has everything to do with point of aim unless that dot itself is bigger than the target (covers the target). I've also found that drawing different sized circles on the targets (shooting paper for group) allows me to tighten my group when using the Aimpoint. This is just for group of course.
My groups open up tremendously when shooting under real conditions and my goal has always been to keep my shots in a 6" group - of course I don't always keep my shots in a 6" group especially under stress and rough conditions.
In my opinion it's a good thing to be able to slow down and take a precision shot if necessary. If a person only trains to hit at combat type accuracy then they might not have the tools necessary to take a necessary shot when needed.
Being that I am not a bench-rest, long-range, accuracy shooter I tend to find discussions of "how accurate can you shoot" to be largely a waste of time but also an indication of newbie-ness (for lack of a better term.
I do think it's important to understand the fundamentals and know how to apply them, and I do think that practicing at longer range aids in that but beyond that...
Agree with the others though, you don't not have to be able to see a 1" paster at 100 yards in order to shoot a 1" group.
Additionally, accuracy = ammunition + equipment (gun, barrel, etc.) + shooter
Many people attempt to shoot tiny little groups while handicapping themselves in one category (or all three). I guess it's interesting once or twice but after that....
If shooting at long-range I find it FAR more interesting to engage multiple targets of a given size than to try to shoot a small group. I think it's harder to shoot the center of ten 8" rings at 200 yards in 10 shots than shoot a tiny group on one 8" ring at 200 yards with 10 shots.
The furthest I've ever shot is at 200 yards and I was able to hit a 6" steel plate with XM193 out of an 11.5" A1 profile barrel using a 4 MOA dot. I was happy and moved on.
Accurate enough to hit man or zombie-sized targets out to 300 yards...anything beyond that is a crapshoot.
Thats about it for me. I can hit the targets I place out there, but I dont go out of my way very often to see if I can come close to a match shooter. I can hit 8" plates at 100 and 200, so I am content.
I want to know this information also.
I lost access to my good range before I could deturmine this information for my ARs.
I can tell you about benching an AK with iron sights. :D
Good idea, see the post I just made in the "Other Assault Rifles" section titled "How Accurately Can You Shoot Your AK47?"
I'm sure I'll get reamed from people saying "AK-47 is not for accuracy, it is for blasting", etc., etc. but I agree with you, I'm interested to know generally how accurate the AK-47 shooters are.
1. With iron sights I can see a barn
2. With scope I can see the side of a barn
3. While benched I can hit the side of the barn
4. While standing I sometimes hit the cow
5. While kneeling Poking holes in the feed trough.
6. While sitting time for a new tractor tire
7. While prone Hit the side of the barn, under the cow, just missed the tractor
crusader377
04-08-10, 22:32
I'm normally shooting between 2 1/2 to 3 inches in the prone unsupported position at 100M with standard 55gr ammo from my 16" barrel carbine using iron sights. Standing my groups are probably double that at 5 to 6 inches. I never shoot from the bench and so I have no idea what my accuracy is from a bench.
Smuckatelli
04-09-10, 08:39
Not accurate enough so I'll continue to shoot more.
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