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Kyle Defoor
04-07-10, 12:14
Just some quick notes for those who asked. There is some other good info on the other running posts on M4C. I tried to not repaet. More info on my blog as well.

Form and the barefoot craze.
The barefoort thing is a little overbored and confusing. “Barefoot” means what it says and also it applies to those who run in a minimiliast shoe with no cushioning or structure- for the most part those shoes worn by barefooters protect the feet from burning pavement, roots and rocks, but provide no shock absorbsion. Think of it as a glorified slipper. Minimilist shoes are better for less injuries and performance, but, not everyone can do it. The real lesson to be learned here is to not heel strike- do a mid foot strike, and to not elevate the heel because of cushioning- it should be level with the rest of the bottom of your foot- just like standing baefooted. Elevation of the heel and heel striking WILL cause injuries throughout your legs and lower back.

On a side note- since I’ve been running in minimilist shoes I am never sore, I’ve never had an injury( I run more now than ever), I’m faster, I don’t do any warm-up or stretch, and I can go days (sometimes weeks) at a time without running and go right back to 65 mile weeks with no issues.

Shoes
Stick with the big four- Acics, New Balance, Nike, and Saucony. Minimiliast shoes will help with technique and form- I prefer the New Balance MT 100’s and 101’s. If you need cushioned shoes go for the Cadillac models from each manufacturer- the reason is because of the materials used (foam, rubber) and the construction methods (more stitching, more glue) are of higher quality.

Buy from a running specific store, not a big sporting goods chain. The reason is that no matter what they tell you- the chains don’t get the same shoe.
Use them for running-not going to the grocery. Replace every 3 to 6 months depending on mileage.

Training
For 5k and PT tests, 800 m and 400m sprints twice a week are the key. Generally, sprints equal to half of the goal distance. Tempo runs (look it up) are good as well. The rest of the week should be mileage at a steady pace- roughly 155 beats per minute (or 2 minutes per mile slower than race pace)- that’s right, run slower get faster. Always take 1 or 2 days off per week, and not necessarily one after another or always Saturdays and Sundays- your body doesn’t know what a 7 day week is! Do it like the Kenyans- run how you feel that day with the goal being 4 or 5 days of running per week.

Week Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
1 Rest 3 m run 5 x 400 3 m run Rest 3 m run 5 m run
2 Rest 3 m run 30 min tempo 3 m run Rest 3 m fast 5 m run
3 Rest 3 m run 6 x 400 3 m run Rest 4 m run 6 m run
4 Rest 3 m run 35 min tempo 3 m run Rest Rest 5-K Test
5 Rest 3 m run 7 x 400 3 m run Rest 4 m fast 6 m run
6 Rest 3 m run 40 min tempo 3 m run Rest 5 m run 7 m run
7 Rest 3 m run 8 x 400 3 m run Rest 5 m fast 7 m run
8 Rest 2 m run 30 min tempo 2 m run Rest Rest 5-K Race

For marathons, the real key is time on your feet and mileage. Sprint work is generally not needed until you knock out a couple of races and see how you feel. Yasso 800’s (look it up) are a great marathon sprint workout and a good gauge of how you’ll do. For the long mileage- don’t worry about pace just get er done.

Week Mon Tue Wed Thur Fri Sat Sun
1
cross 3 m run 5 m run 3 m run rest 5 m pace 8
2
cross 3 m run 5 m run 3 m run rest 3 m run 9
3
cross 3 m run 5 m run 3 m run rest 5 m pace 6
4
cross 3 m run 6 m run 3 m run rest 6 m pace 11
5
cross 3 m run 6 m run 3 m run rest 6 m run 12
6
cross 3 m run 5 m run 3 m run rest 6 m pace 9
7
cross 4 m run 7 m run 4 m run rest 7 m pace 14
8
cross 4 m run 7 m run 4 m run rest 7 m run 15
9
cross 4 m run 5 m run 4 m run rest 7 m pace 11
10
cross 4 m run 8 m run 4 m run rest 8 m pace 17
11
cross 5 m run 8 m run 5 m run rest 8 m run 18
12
cross 5 m run 5 m run 5 m run rest 8 m pace 13
13
cross 5 m run 8 m run 5 m run rest 5 m pace 20
14
cross 5 m run 5 m run 5 m run rest 8 m run 12
15
cross 5 m run 8 m run 5 m run rest 5 m pace 20
16
cross 5 m run 6 m run 5 m run rest 4 m pace 12
17
cross 4 m run 5 m run 4 m run rest 3 m run 8
18
cross 3 m run 4 m run rest rest 2 m run race

For ultras, the key is injury prevention ( shoes and form), fueling, and very high mileage. I generally don’t go out for less than an hour (7/8 miles). Sometimes I’ll run an hour before work and an hour after during one day. In real hard months I’ll add an hour during lunch if possible. Weekends are always a minimum 15 miler. I generally believe that anything over 17/18 is counter productive.

As for fueling- you have to know when to do it, and the only way you’re going to get than info is to go until your body almost crashes. GUs are my #1 source of fuel. I know that I can run 10 miles w/o one in moderate heat. After that I need one every 30- 45 min depending on conditions. I can also do 8 miles or so without water as long as I pre-hydrate with at least one full bottle. After that I need a bottle per 3 or 4 miles depending on heat and conditions. I’ll also take salt tablets along the way with the Gus- generally one every 30- 45 min.

You don’t have to be a waif like fragile being to be a good runner. I’m 5’8”, 170 and I have friends that are way bigger and way faster. Also, don’t let bad experiences of the past (military) keep you from doing it. All good hunters run;)

M4Fundi
04-09-10, 20:33
Thanks Kyle!
Just came in from running and sat down and this popped up, I needed the info and encouragement after sucking so bad today!

Any pre/post run advice as far as carb/protein/sugars to fuel up or recover?

sniperfrog
04-12-10, 14:39
Kyle,
Dude, I've been trying to run more like you said, on the balls of my feet, in a minimalist shoe (NB 790). My achilles tendons are taking an ass whoopin'. I've got some tendonitis in both legs. What am I doing wrong? I'm only running 2-5milers a week. Have I just turned into a big vagina? I also live in Tennessee which means there's friggin' hills everywhere which probably doesn't help.

Kyle Defoor
04-15-10, 07:48
sniperfrog,

Possibilities- you could be too much on your forefoot. You shouldn't be on your toes or ball of the foot only. Think of it as almost a flat foot strike.

#2- It takes time and your achilles is aching because it is getting stretched right now to a longer length. So pain and swelling will happen until your body gets used to it. Just use common sense in the training.

Also, your stride should be shorter than it used to be when you run the way you should. Check out that video on my blog from a few months back of someone on a treadmill with and without large, heel cushioned shoes. it's an eye opener. Your legs need to be under you the whole time. if will feel weird and seem as though you are taking to many steps at first, but that's it.

A good way to see how your striking is to run in slightly loose dirt or sand and go back and look at the tracks. The beach is not a good place- the sand is too loose. If you see a big divit where your heel is- shin splints are inbound, so take shorter strides.

Chances of you being a big vagina now are as good as they where back then- 0

Bigboote
04-15-10, 09:00
I've done MMA for almost a decade, and frequently being on judo or wrestling mats for extended periods can wear down your ankles and calves because they're constantly making little adjustments to the mushiness to gain some measure of stability. Over the years, that has led to periods of pain in my feet when doing runs or sprints in strength & conditioning workouts.

I've tried this mid-foot/flat-foot strike technique for a week now, and already noticed a decrease in foot pain (so far, just 400m and 800m sprints in various crossfit workouts). I'm having to concentrate on proper form at the moment, particularly near the end of a workout when fatigue can lead to sloppiness. Hoping my neuromuscular doodads will imprint this technique soon. Converse are what I've run in for years, but I'll order a pair of minimalist shoes and give them a try.

Thanks for the heads up on this, Kyle.

Irish
04-16-10, 19:24
FYI - New Balance is having a sale right now online. 10% off and free shipping. http://www.nbwebexpress.com/?s1=dbm&s2=48hM1&s3=041510h

Rated21R
04-16-10, 20:24
any chance you can edit the little table you made so i can better make out what is suggested for each day. thanks!

militarymoron
04-16-10, 20:56
i'm interested in trying out 'barefoot' jogging/running. kyle (or anyone else), would you recommend the new vibram five fingers instead of a minimalist shoe? if so, which five fingers model?

sniperfrog
04-17-10, 18:47
sniperfrog,

Possibilities- you could be too much on your forefoot. You shouldn't be on your toes or ball of the foot only. Think of it as almost a flat foot strike.

#2- It takes time and your achilles is aching because it is getting stretched right now to a longer length. So pain and swelling will happen until your body gets used to it. Just use common sense in the training.

Also, your stride should be shorter than it used to be when you run the way you should. Check out that video on my blog from a few months back of someone on a treadmill with and without large, heel cushioned shoes. it's an eye opener. Your legs need to be under you the whole time. if will feel weird and seem as though you are taking to many steps at first, but that's it.

A good way to see how your striking is to run in slightly loose dirt or sand and go back and look at the tracks. The beach is not a good place- the sand is too loose. If you see a big divit where your heel is- shin splints are inbound, so take shorter strides.

Chances of you being a big vagina now are as good as they where back then- 0

Thanks Kyle. I think part of the problem was I was trying to run with a midfoot strike while wearing the same Asics that I always wore. I didn't get the NB 790s until a few months later. It was the shoes, man...the shoes! I was probably having to run too much on my toes to avoid striking the heel with the Asics. Lesson learned.

Now I need to go tuffin' up... I'm going to run a 5 miler barefoot on a gravel road while wearing a 70 pound ruck.

Mark71
05-13-10, 02:27
Any pre/post run advice as far as carb/protein/sugars to fuel up or recover?

Any insight on this?

What do you guys recommend to eat/supplements to take both before and after a run?

Thanks

tiger seven
05-13-10, 09:08
Also, your stride should be shorter than it used to be when you run the way you should.

As someone who recently transitioned to minimalist shoes (the MT100s, based on Kyle's recommendation in his blog) after years of wearing big, cushy ASICS, this nugget of wisdom is crucial. When I first starting running in the MT100s, I found it best to go slowly (often very slowly) and focus on each and every stride, making sure I was landing mid-foot and never on my heels. I focused on a shorter, smoother, more efficient stride. Every time I started to pick up the pace, I would start heel-striking and pounding my feet. Over a few weeks, the new stride became more instinctive and I could start to run faster. I now judge the "correctness" of my stride by how little noise I make. If I'm running the way I should - a short, smooth, efficient stride with a mid-foot strike - I make very little noise. If I can hear my feet pounding the road I know I'm doing something wrong and then I focus more on getting my stride back where it should be.

In all, I'm sold on these kind of shoes and this kind of running. The lingering joint pain I had for years was gone within month. I've experience a little of the Achilles pain Kyle mentions, but stretching helps minimize it as my body adapts. I'm now up to running 3-5 miles a few times a week, and I feel better and run better than I have in 20 years.

My favorite post-run recovery drink is big, tall glass of chocolate milk. Check it out. There's a few studies that suggest it works just as well as any of the specialized products out there. It certainly works for me.

Derek

chuckman
05-13-10, 14:39
Good thread. The only thing I would add is one more manufacturer to "the big four": Brooks.

chuckman
05-13-10, 14:41
Any insight on this?

What do you guys recommend to eat/supplements to take both before and after a run?

Thanks

A cup of coffee before (no joke, it works for me). A banana and chocolate milk after, with maybe a handful of nuts.

sniperfrog
05-13-10, 18:00
I like coffee before a run as well. I can feel a difference when I drink coffee and if I don't. Also, I take a liquid vitamin B supplement before a run. It's cheap and I feel I can go longer at a faster pace when I take it.

Caution: Drinking alot of coffee before a long run can result in finishing the run with only one sock :eek:

zenghost
05-14-10, 06:12
Caution: Drinking alot of coffee before a long run can result in finishing the run with only one sock :eek:

Yep, I can see that being a possibility! LOL

LMTRocks
05-26-10, 00:03
Good thread. The only thing I would add is one more manufacturer to "the big four": Brooks.

+1 on that too.

tobasco
05-26-10, 01:19
just finished my sprints back and forth for tennis training. lol
footwork is very important.

B52U
05-26-10, 14:16
Quote:
Good thread. The only thing I would add is one more manufacturer to "the big four": Brooks.

+1 on that too.


+2, brooks have saved me from a lot of pain since I have low arches. They seem to make a lot of flat foot friendly shoes unlike the other manufacturers.

Yojimbo
05-28-10, 22:05
Kyle,

What are your thoughts on the Posetech running techinque?

Tom Swift
05-29-10, 17:40
i'm interested in trying out 'barefoot' jogging/running. kyle (or anyone else), would you recommend the new vibram five fingers instead of a minimalist shoe? if so, which five fingers model?

I just picked up the new or semi new Nike Free Run+'s they claim to be very close to the barefoot running without sacrificing the benefits of a shoe. Haven't done enough testing to make a final verdict but overall I am impressed just having got in from running a 5k just now.

Can someone explain the proper breathing technique on a high speed 5k?

chuckman
05-29-10, 18:44
Can someone explain the proper breathing technique on a high speed 5k?

The way I was told was "just breathe"...as in, find your natural rhythm. I experimented with two in, two out; four in, four out; in through the nose, out through the mouth. I have no clue what I actually do, I...just breathe.

If someone has a true 'technique,' I'd like to hear it.

Tom Swift
05-30-10, 00:42
The way I was told was "just breathe"...as in, find your natural rhythm. I experimented with two in, two out; four in, four out; in through the nose, out through the mouth. I have no clue what I actually do, I...just breathe.

If someone has a true 'technique,' I'd like to hear it.

Ah yes that was what I was getting at I breath in through the nose out through the mouth currently and two in two out. Over the summer I want to bring my running into a competitive level.

N4LtRecce
06-09-10, 22:08
i'm interested in trying out 'barefoot' jogging/running. kyle (or anyone else), would you recommend the new vibram five fingers instead of a minimalist shoe? if so, which five fingers model?

Ditto here

Kyle Defoor
06-11-10, 09:42
I wouldn't reccommend the five fingers. There is just not enough there to protect the feet from debris (rocks, roots, etc.) I think they are a little of a marketing gimmick, none of the top ultra guys use them except as a "grass run" shoe and that's because Vibram asks them to.

Stick with-

NB 100
NB 790 (if you can find any left)
Nike Free (never run in one but it looks ok)
The new NB 101s will be out in oct I think.

There are others too. Just look for-

No (or very, very little) heel elevation
Very light weight (10 oz max, the 100s are about 7)
Thin sole with no big foam cushion.

militarymoron
06-11-10, 12:35
kyle, thanks for the input. i've held off from the five fingers simply because they don't have my size in stock right now.

i'll check out those other shoes you mentioned.
i remembered that i had a pair of nike aqua socks in the closet (for water sports), and thought to myself "hmmm - this might work". i'm not trail running, so i'm not encountering rocks or roots. just running on sidewalks/asphalt.

so, i went for a tentative 2 mile jog on monday, pushing my toddler in his stroller. i wore the aqua socks, adjusted my style to take shorter steps and land on the mid/forefoot, and went at it. also watched some vids on barefoot jogging to learn a bit more. not surprisingly, my calves ached for the next two days, but i was pleasantly surprised at how 'light' i felt on my feet and how natural it felt (not awkward at all), no pounding of the joints, and i really felt like my legs got a nice workout. i've never run barefoot before, and have worn asics gel kayanos for years to jog in.
i'm going to give this a try - i'll jog again today.
here's the nike aqua sock - i'd say it's about as minimalist as you can get. not designed for running, but worked well this first time. doubt the sole is going to last, but i already had 'em.

http://www.hiddengarments.cn/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/nike-aqua-sock-classice794b7e99e8b.jpg

CENTCOM_Survivor
06-11-10, 14:35
Also, don’t let bad experiences of the past (military) keep you from doing it. All good hunters run

Thats a great quote as the Army really killed my desire to run after being out for six years. I'm having a hard time getting back at it, but I might check out the "barefoot" deal.