View Full Version : For those here who want gov run health care...
Belmont31R
04-08-10, 16:32
Took a trip to the local Social Security office this morning with my wife so we could get her a replacement ID card.
Waiting room full of people. Old haggled security guard keeping the crowd in line. We got our ticket to wait for our number to be called. Sat there for 30 minutes before a single person was helped as the 2 people handling customers seemingly disappeared from their posts. Then it took another 30 minutes to be seen. We were taken in the back once called, and to find row after row of cubicles with people not seeming to be doing much. The lady next to the one helping us was on a private call based on her conversation. Had to be 30 people back there yet it took us waiting for an hour + 15 minutes in the back to just get a replacement card application turned in, and then another 2 weeks before we will get it in the mail.
The lesson here is there is something about government run operations that always seem to be grossly inefficient. The workers don't seem to care much about the quality of service. After all what are you going to do? We rely on them to do basic things like show a SS card to an employer so we can get paid. We need them to renew our registrations. To get licenses. If you walk out what are you going to do? There is no other option, and its illegal to operate in society without going through them. So if you want these types taking care of you and your family's medical care don't be shocked when you go to the doctors office, and you are greeted with this lack of service.
Thats the beauty of having options. If you are dissatisfied with the level of service you get somewhere take your money somewhere else. In the private sector a lack of customer service hurts your bottom line. In the government world they don't give a ****. Sorry to be blunt but its the truth. If you act out of line their security guard can show you the door, and then what are you going to do? Yes there are wrongs in the private sector. No system is perfect. But put both on a scale. Would you rather deal with people who could care less if you walk away happy or not? Or would you rather deal with people who's paychecks depend on how satisfied you and everyone else are?
Just substitute this with going to see a doctor in 10 years...
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/BM31R/SSOFFICE.jpg
my doctors office is similar and it's private practice ! I pay medical insurance as well. The staff there is useless.
DMV. /end thread
I'd rather get kicked in the nuts than make a trip to the DMV.
On the original topic my wife just went to our local SS office yesterday and said it was quick & easy for her to finally change her last name, after over a year, at the Las Vegas location. Increasing lines, abysmal customer service and total frustration in general will continue to rise with more .Gov in our lives.
my doctors office is similar and it's private practice ! I pay medical insurance as well. The staff there is useless.
The thing there is, you can go somewhere else and get better results. But when it is a gov thing there is no where you can go. It is all the going to be crap
Belmont31R
04-08-10, 17:25
The thing there is, you can go somewhere else and get better results. But when it is a gov thing there is no where you can go. It is all the going to be crap
Exactly. If you want to wait an hour to even be helped by anyone then that is up to you. With the government running the show there is no other option. If you leave there is no where else to go, and in this case my wife will not get paid until she sits at the SS office, and they decide to do what they are supposed to.
Its also about the fact that with so many employees working there they only had a few that seemed to helping customers (part time). If you go into a typical doctors office, and have to wait its because the staff is most likely actually doing something, and working as hard as they can to get everyone through. Here people seemed to be playing around on their computers or engaged in personal phone conversations on the clock. You would never go to a doctors office, and see 30 some people look like they are trying to look busy or just looking like they are not doing anything.
DMV in Missouri have all been contracted out. They get paid by their throughput so they are pretty dang quick actually.
Not that I am for government run health care, but I could see a situation where they simply contract out the various work and pay them based on throughput. Now for the DMV this works because as long as the paperwork is processed correctly, your good. In a medical setting I can see problems with this because doc's will be trying to push patients through and maybe mis-diagnosing things correctly or at all.
Belmont31R
04-08-10, 17:41
DMV in Missouri have all been contracted out. They get paid by their throughput so they are pretty dang quick actually.
Not that I am for government run health care, but I could see a situation where they simply contract out the various work and pay them based on throughput. Now for the DMV this works because as long as the paperwork is processed correctly, your good. In a medical setting I can see problems with this because doc's will be trying to push patients through and maybe mis-diagnosing things correctly or at all.
Isn't that basically what the government programs already do?
Gov pays for a service for people in their program, and private doctors provide a service. Except they force doctors to take payments that don't even cover the cost of business, and to make up for it they charge private insurance more.
Nathan_Bell
04-08-10, 17:44
From another forum. Original post in green, reply in standard text. I am not the person who researched this or posted it originally.
We were told, by our insurance company, that beginning in 2018 the IRS
would be taxing awarded benefits, not our premiums. Our boss, who
survived cancer, calculated his taxes for one year would be around
$80,000. I'd like to check to see if the insurance company is right.
While I do not have the exact page, here is a description of the 2018 Cadillac Tax and on 1st read it sounds like your insurance company is right.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/26037.html
Provisions going into effect in 2018
40% excise tax on health coverage in excess of $10,200/$27,500 (subject to adjustment for unexpected increase in medical costs prior to effective date) and increased thresholds of $1,650/$3,450 for over age 55 retirees or certain high-risk professions, both indexed for inflation by CPI-U plus 1%; adjustment based on age and gender profile of employees; vision and dental excluded from excise tax; levied at insurer level; employer aggregates and issues information return for insurers indicating amount subject to the excise tax; nondeductible
Here you go on the actual bill.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3590enr.txt.pdf
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h4872eh.txt.pdf
The section you are looking for is section 9001 pg729 in HR 3590 and section 1401 pg82 in HR4872.
On 1st blush it looks like the Trinity of Stupidity "F"ed Up and your insurance company is right, due to the wording of Section 9001. The meant premium cost, but used "
EXCESS BENEFIT.—For purposes of this section—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—The term ‘excess benefit’ means, with
respect to any applicable employer-sponsored coverage made
available by an employer to an employee during any taxable
period, the sum of the excess amounts determined under paragraph
(2) for months during the taxable period.
‘‘(2) MONTHLY EXCESS AMOUNT.—The excess amount determined
under this paragraph for any month is the excess (if
any) of—
‘‘(A) the aggregate cost of the applicable employer sponsored
coverage of the employee for the month, over
‘‘(B) an amount equal to 1⁄12 of the annual limitation
under paragraph (3) for the calendar year in which the
month occurs.
‘‘(3) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—For purposes of this subsection—
‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—The annual limitation under this
paragraph for any calendar year is the dollar limit determined
under subparagraph (C) for the calendar year.
‘‘(B) APPLICABLE ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The annual
limitation which applies for any month shall be determined
on the basis of the type of coverage (as determined under
subsection (f)(1)) provided to the employee by the employer
as of the beginning of the month.
‘‘(C) APPLICABLE DOLLAR LIMIT.—Except as provided
in subparagraph (D)—
‘‘(i) 2013.—In the case of 2013, the dollar limit
under this subparagraph is—
‘‘(I) in the case of an employee with self-only
coverage, $8,500, and
‘‘(II) in the case of an employee with coverage
other than self-only coverage, $23,000.
It looks like the morons may have REALLY effed up, either that or if you believe in their inherent nefarious nature they deliberately delayed the tax so that a later congress would get punished for basically tax EVERY insurance plan with a 40% excise tax, because if you hospitalization you WILL rack up more than the listed amount, if the IRS goes by what is written and not the public statements by Congress.
I'd rather get kicked in the nuts than make a trip to the DMV.
On the original topic my wife just went to our local SS office yesterday and said it was quick & easy for her to finally change her last name, after over a year, at the Las Vegas location. Increasing lines, abysmal customer service and total frustration in general will continue to rise with more .Gov in our lives.
I always ask where the English ONLY line is as I don't need to see the interrupter. Oddly most don't find that as funny as I do. :D
what time did you go there??? i always have a saying that you have to get there before all of the lazy fatasses get out of bed, no matter what you do...grocery store, wal-mart, car repair, etc...i am always first or second in any line i must go to...
I have been lucky when I go the SS office. I was in and out in less than 15 minutes, however i was there just a few miutes after it opened. Like was previously said, if you can be there before the lazy ones get out of bed.
Have you guys heard the "where's my obama health care?" calls to insurance agencies...
What the hell are we doing to ourselves. Fire them...Fire them all!
Wait, who here wants government run healthcare?
Admit it!
CarlosDJackal
04-09-10, 11:27
Anyone who has served in our military knows exactly what the problems that comes with socialized or state-run health care. It's not always the case of bad customer service or individuals who only do the bare minimum to keep their jobs. People can be replaced.
Even if you have good people manning and running the system; the processes that are inherently a part of such a system usually prevents any of them from providing top-notch help.
The biggest problem with government run health care is that it takes away our ability to choose. As someone who have had to deal with Tri- Care, the VA, and the Socialized Medicine provided to Canadian subjects; I have seen how detrimental this lack of choice can be. They also do not have the option to have "elective" procedures such as an inflamed gall bladder done when they want to.
I have a niece who could not have her gall bladder removed until more than 9-months after her Physician made the diagnosis that it should be removed. Why? because the Canadian system did not consider her condition as "life-threatening". Even though she was rapidly loosing weight and color, throwing up whatever she ate, and was generally miserable; they kept canceling her scheduled procedure for based on "priorities".
My sister (he Mom) finally managed to get her a last-minute operation a couple of weeks just before they went on a 5-week vacation overseas. It just so happen that a scheduled operation was canceled just as my sister called one afternoon. My niece had her very inflamed gall bladder removed the next day. The effect was immediate - she stopped throwing up everything and her color started coming back. To this day she still can't handle fatty foods and such.
When I told my sister that my gall bladder was removed within 4-weeks from when I made the decision (at my Physician's suggestion); she wouldn't believe me. And my gall bladder wasn't inflamed; they detected polyps in it (via ultrasound).
In the current system, if a doctor tells me that I have to have a certain procedure; I have the option of going to one or more doctors in order to receive a second or third opinion. It may cost me more, but that's my choice. In a socialized environment, they have no choice. All the doctors are under the public health care administration's control and outside of the black market; none of them can see you without a referral regardless of how much you have to pay them.
I personally think that our current Health Care system does need an overhaul. But I don't believe the way the obamists did it is a step in the right direction. JM2CW.
Here is some gov't run health care... read around and see if its for you and try and call them and see how many hours you are on hold.
http://www.dir.ca.gov/DWC/dwc_home_page.htm
GermanSynergy
04-09-10, 14:55
Ask anyone that has had to deal with the VA how "great" it is.....
Govt run services have no incentive to be run efficiently, because they essentially have no competition, and it takes a miracle to fire a non productive employee. :mad:
10 years...more like 3 years. we had 35 providers walk out this week due to us adopting this lovely system. 35 docs who were making less than some of their staff and were told to push them through as quickly as possible, and order as many tests as you can; or sink...they sunk. we filled half the spots already with fresh new foreign grads...its terrible.
madisonsfinest
04-09-10, 15:29
I thought the government run health care was for those that can't get it on there own. Meaning that you can always stick with what you currently have. Did I hear things wrong?
Belmont31R
04-09-10, 15:47
10 years...more like 3 years. we had 35 providers walk out this week due to us adopting this lovely system. 35 docs who were making less than some of their staff and were told to push them through as quickly as possible, and order as many tests as you can; or sink...they sunk. we filled half the spots already with fresh new foreign grads...its terrible.
That is who is going to be filling the ranks. I expect within 10-20 years a large percentage of docs will be foreigners willing to work for far less than American doctors can, and quality will go down.
I thought the government run health care was for those that can't get it on there own. Meaning that you can always stick with what you currently have. Did I hear things wrong?
Yes and no. If you already have a healthcare plan through work you'll be able to keep it BUT expect for your coverage to decrease or to pay more for the same coverage you have now.
Also expect to be taxed more because someone has to pay for those that can't afford it.
Expect healthcare in general to stay stagnant or decrease because there won't be incentive for the industry to progress now that Uncle Sam has a say in what level of care you receive.
I thought the government run health care was for those that can't get it on there own. Meaning that you can always stick with what you currently have. Did I hear things wrong?
From what we are seeing, it will be cheaper for employers to pay the fines than to continue to subsidize the plans they currently hold. So what do you think will happen?
1) Companies will drop the plans and pay the fines.
or
2) Government will amend the law to stiffen the penalties, making it so no company will ever have a choice to offer vs. not offer.
Ridge_Runner_5
04-09-10, 17:06
From another forum. Original post in green, reply in standard text. I am not the person who researched this or posted it originally.
We were told, by our insurance company, that beginning in 2018 the IRS
would be taxing awarded benefits, not our premiums. Our boss, who
survived cancer, calculated his taxes for one year would be around
$80,000. I'd like to check to see if the insurance company is right.
While I do not have the exact page, here is a description of the 2018 Cadillac Tax and on 1st read it sounds like your insurance company is right.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/26037.html
Provisions going into effect in 2018
40% excise tax on health coverage in excess of $10,200/$27,500 (subject to adjustment for unexpected increase in medical costs prior to effective date) and increased thresholds of $1,650/$3,450 for over age 55 retirees or certain high-risk professions, both indexed for inflation by CPI-U plus 1%; adjustment based on age and gender profile of employees; vision and dental excluded from excise tax; levied at insurer level; employer aggregates and issues information return for insurers indicating amount subject to the excise tax; nondeductible
Here you go on the actual bill.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3590enr.txt.pdf
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h4872eh.txt.pdf
The section you are looking for is section 9001 pg729 in HR 3590 and section 1401 pg82 in HR4872.
On 1st blush it looks like the Trinity of Stupidity "F"ed Up and your insurance company is right, due to the wording of Section 9001. The meant premium cost, but used "
EXCESS BENEFIT.—For purposes of this section—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—The term ‘excess benefit’ means, with
respect to any applicable employer-sponsored coverage made
available by an employer to an employee during any taxable
period, the sum of the excess amounts determined under paragraph
(2) for months during the taxable period.
‘‘(2) MONTHLY EXCESS AMOUNT.—The excess amount determined
under this paragraph for any month is the excess (if
any) of—
‘‘(A) the aggregate cost of the applicable employer sponsored
coverage of the employee for the month, over
‘‘(B) an amount equal to 1⁄12 of the annual limitation
under paragraph (3) for the calendar year in which the
month occurs.
‘‘(3) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—For purposes of this subsection—
‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—The annual limitation under this
paragraph for any calendar year is the dollar limit determined
under subparagraph (C) for the calendar year.
‘‘(B) APPLICABLE ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The annual
limitation which applies for any month shall be determined
on the basis of the type of coverage (as determined under
subsection (f)(1)) provided to the employee by the employer
as of the beginning of the month.
‘‘(C) APPLICABLE DOLLAR LIMIT.—Except as provided
in subparagraph (D)—
‘‘(i) 2013.—In the case of 2013, the dollar limit
under this subparagraph is—
‘‘(I) in the case of an employee with self-only
coverage, $8,500, and
‘‘(II) in the case of an employee with coverage
other than self-only coverage, $23,000.
It looks like the morons may have REALLY effed up, either that or if you believe in their inherent nefarious nature they deliberately delayed the tax so that a later congress would get punished for basically tax EVERY insurance plan with a 40% excise tax, because if you hospitalization you WILL rack up more than the listed amount, if the IRS goes by what is written and not the public statements by Congress.
And THIS is the problem with lawyers running government.
Lines and lines of text referencing other lines that then reference a third line completely choked with legalese so that you need to take notes and literally do math (triple and quadruple negatives) to figure out what the law is saying.
Nathan_Bell
04-09-10, 17:46
And THIS is the problem with lawyers running government.
Lines and lines of text referencing other lines that then reference a third line completely choked with legalese so that you need to take notes and literally do math (triple and quadruple negatives) to figure out what the law is saying.
And the lawyers who have no idea about the terminology. Using the term benefit in the insurance industry means the amount paid out, it is not the amount paid in. When discussing insurance from the employers' side though insurance's cost is the benefit to the employee so it is the amount paid in.
They used the word in the wrong spot and we will get to pay taxes on the benefits paid out. So if your heart transplant costs $100,000 you will have a tax liability of $40k after 2018.
We were taken in the back once called, and to find row after row of cubicles with people not seeming to be doing much. The lady next to the one helping us was on a private call based on her conversation. Had to be 30 people back there yet it took us waiting for an hour + 15 minutes in the back to just get a replacement card application turned in...[/IMG]
I'm currently driving a delivery truck. I go into a lot of government office buildings. They are full of "employees" doing absolutely nothing. Sitting there reading love novels, blabbing on their cell phones, sleeping, outside smoking, etc. I see this a lot everywhere I go.
ALL government employees (low level, high level, hired and elected) should be terminated. That, or they should all at least be fired. ;)
also...
I went to law school in the 80's. I did the world a favor and decided not to become a lawyer. I actually loved it and did very well. But I saw what it was becoming. We should put all lawyers on a ship and ship it out.
Ridge_Runner_5
04-09-10, 20:09
I'm currently driving a delivery truck. I go into a lot of government office buildings. They are full of "employees" doing absolutely nothing. Sitting there reading love novels, blabbing on their cell phones, sleeping, outside smoking, etc. I see this a lot everywhere I go.
ALL government employees (low level, high level, hired and elected) should be terminated. That, or they should all at least be fired. ;)
also...
I went to law school in the 80's. I did the world a favor and decided not to become a lawyer. I actually loved it and did very well. But I saw what it was becoming. We should put all lawyers on a ship and ship it out.
Can the ship be named Poseidon?
Can the ship be named Poseidon?
I like Titanic better. Poseidon has too much risk that some of them might survive. Even a handful is too many.
Although I guess the percentage that survived the Titanic was greater than that of the Poseidon, so maybe a bad analogy.
Belmont31R
04-09-10, 21:28
From what we are seeing, it will be cheaper for employers to pay the fines than to continue to subsidize the plans they currently hold. So what do you think will happen?
1) Companies will drop the plans and pay the fines.
or
2) Government will amend the law to stiffen the penalties, making it so no company will ever have a choice to offer vs. not offer.
Also with how the system is currently ran this is a benefit used to entice, and keep quality workers at a place of employment.
After all this BS takes effect we can no longer consider it a benefit to have quality insurance by getting a good job because everyone is forced to buy it anyways or pay a fine. What good does it do an employer looking to retain quality people to pay 15k a year for their insurance costs when no matter what that person, by law, is forced to have insurance? Its no longer a carrot on a stick. Simply tell your employees to go get insurance through this exchange because its cheaper through there due to gov subsidies. Why would an employer fork out 15k +- a year to a 50k a year employee when they can pocket the money, and let the gov pay for their insurance at least part way. Whatever the subsidy turns out to be for that much in earnings. Up to 80k a year in income is eligible to get a subsidy.
But this is what happens when gov sticks its fat nose into the private sector. The entire balance gets skewed, and generally the people end up losing something. In this case its going to be employer provided insurance unless you are into the six digit figure. And theres NO WAY any job less than 10/HR is going to suddenly offer insurance. They'll pay the fines, and pass the added cost onto the customer. So most everything will go up in price to cover this.
PrivateCitizen
04-09-10, 21:48
I like Titanic better.
This is actually a great metaphor. We hit the 'burg, we know it is going down. And nothing can be done. Is what it is.
It is gonna start all fine and dandy and end in a massive, jarring, shatter of debt and inefficiency.
And THIS is the problem with lawyers running government.
Lines and lines of text referencing other lines that then reference a third line completely choked with legalese so that you need to take notes and literally do math (triple and quadruple negatives) to figure out what the law is saying.
You hit the nail on the head. A key obstacle to the general public becoming more informed.
How about a similar outline format, but this with specifics where relevant as opposed to references?
I thought the government run health care was for those that can't get it on there own. Meaning that you can always stick with what you currently have. Did I hear things wrong?
Yes, but you still pay for it. And eventually you will be penalized for not having it in the forms of fees from the private insurance you have that they have to start charging. Its like a snowball effect. The seed is the government run healthcare and the snow is taxes, fees, and debt if you will. Plus you'll be paying for the healthcare of others years before their care even begins:eek:
Pierced Armor
04-10-10, 00:25
I thought the government run health care was for those that can't get it on there own. Meaning that you can always stick with what you currently have. Did I hear things wrong?
The socialist have been trying to pass this bill or variations of this since the McCarthy era (1950's). If they can controll our health, they essentially control our lives.
"Madisonsfinest" you've been lied to like most of the country that drank the Kool-aid. It's hard not to believe what their telling us isn't the truth, especially when the majority of the media is controlled by them, the liberal / socialist progressives. This recent bill is just step # 1 of their plan. If this healthcare bill isn't repealed, our children WILL have a single payer health plan and their lives will be at the will of our Elite governing body. (Yes, I have read the bill and the previous drafts leading up to what was illegally passed by the most corrupt legislative branch in America's history.
Bad time for our great Country. C'mon November, that's when we'll bring on real, "Hope & Change".
PA
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