FN 5.7?

[ColdDeadHands]

I just found this:

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7451

http://www.eliteammunition.net/catalog/item/7385614/7791952.htm

Is this ammo the real deal or just another hype like the Extreme Shock ammo?
Kinda makes me want to buy a FNH 5.7...

[maximus83]

DocGKR has a useful post on 5.7 ballistics in the Terminal ballistics section:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913


In general, while it can be lethal (just as a .22lr ammo can be lethal with good placement and under the right conditions), it is not considered an effective duty or self-defense round because of its poor terminal performance.

[Six oh Nine]

Does anyone here have one? Because I am pretty interested in this myself. Not for self defense as much as target / match shooting.

[palmbeach31]

Has anyone ever seen or heard of one of these to rent anywhere?

[Six oh Nine]

Bump.

[MadDog]

Yes, a range I used to go to in GA had both the 5.7 pistol for rent as well as a full-auto P90.

MadDog

[orionz06]

A local range has a 5-7 and a P90 for rent, assuming you are willing to pay their ammo prices

[TOrrock]

You guys might want to do a search here regarding the 5.7mm cartridge and guns related to it.

[JPB]

I recently sold my FN 5.7 USG. It was a cool pistol. I never considered it a viable self defense option due to magazine restrictions in CA coupled with the anemic ammo marketed to general public. It was fun, but I can have the same fun cheaper with a .22. I also decided that there were better guns to tie up 1K on.

[Burdy]

I own a FN Five Seven and shoot it better than anything I have ever shot, mine or someone else's. Even though it essentially a rifle round (.224) fired from a pistol its recoil is about 40% less than a 9mm and it is extremely controllable. I have shot Glocks for years, and carried them, based mostly on their reliability reputation, but my G22, G23 and G36 ALL at some points had FTE's. I have a tendency to limp wrist when rapid firing, and the Glocks would hang up at times. The FN Five Seven is the only automatic pistol I have owned that has been 100% reliable in all situations, even if I try to limp wrist it.

There are many misconceptions about the 5.7x28mm round for self defense mainly due to the fact most agencies that use the round, shoot the armor piercing round and use the Five Seven only in tactical situations. So when someone engages a soft target with AP rounds, they then wonder why they dont get 1 shot stops. AP rounds are made for piercing armor, not massive tissue damage, although the bullets do tumble and yaw which create larger wounds than other FMJ or AP rounds.

With the right ammunition, the 5.7x28mm cartridge will travel between 2100 and 2600 fps, a realm that produces severe hydrostatic shock and will produce MASSIVE wound cavities when combined with either hollow point or fragmenting bullets. The problem is, most people that buy the gun, will only use what FN supplies to the public which is anemic for self defense. The Elite ammo that the OP is talking about is "for real" and is available, albeit usually with a waiting period. I have ordered 4 boxes of the new S5 PFP myself and am expecting a 1-2 month wait.

In the end, I carry the FN Five Seven every day for a few reasons. It is extraordinarily light for a full size handgun (probably THE lightest), I shoot it better than any other pistol by a LONG shot, its it very controllable under rapid fire, has never failed me and 20+1 goes on forever in a pistol. In short it inspires confidence that I simply cant get anywhere else.
Sorry for my long, first post.

[Alaskapopo]

I own a FN Five Seven and shoot it better than anything I have ever shot, mine or someone else's. Even though it essentially a rifle round (.224) fired from a pistol its recoil is about 40% less than a 9mm and it is extremely controllable. I have shot Glocks for years, and carried them, based mostly on their reliability reputation, but my G22, G23 and G36 ALL at some points had FTE's. I have a tendency to limp wrist when rapid firing, and the Glocks would hang up at times. The FN Five Seven is the only automatic pistol I have owned that has been 100% reliable in all situations, even if I try to limp wrist it.

There are many misconceptions about the 5.7x28mm round for self defense mainly due to the fact most agencies that use the round, shoot the armor piercing round and use the Five Seven only in tactical situations. So when someone engages a soft target with AP rounds, they then wonder why they dont get 1 shot stops. AP rounds are made for piercing armor, not massive tissue damage, although the bullets do tumble and yaw which create larger wounds than other FMJ or AP rounds.

With the right ammunition, the 5.7x28mm cartridge will travel between 2100 and 2600 fps, a realm that produces severe hydrostatic shock and will produce MASSIVE wound cavities when combined with either hollow point or fragmenting bullets. The problem is, most people that buy the gun, will only use what FN supplies to the public which is anemic for self defense. The Elite ammo that the OP is talking about is "for real" and is available, albeit usually with a waiting period. I have ordered 4 boxes of the new S5 PFP myself and am expecting a 1-2 month wait.

In the end, I carry the FN Five Seven every day for a few reasons. It is extraordinarily light for a full size handgun (probably THE lightest), I shoot it better than any other pistol by a LONG shot, its it very controllable under rapid fire, has never failed me and 20+1 goes on forever in a pistol. In short it inspires confidence that I simply cant get anywhere else.
Sorry for my long, first post.
Actually the velocity from the pistol is more like 1600 to 1800 fps. Its not a rifle round its a 22 mag with a bit of a boost. It should not be considered for self defense unless charging rabbits are a threat in your area.
Pat

[Burdy]

Actually the velocity from the pistol is more like 1600 to 1800 fps. Its not a rifle round its a 22 mag with a bit of a boost. It should not be considered for self defense unless charging rabbits are a threat in your area.
Pat

And this is the type of misinformation I am talking about. Elite Ammuntion's self defense rounds range from 2100 to 2600 fps FROM the PISTOL. Go the website. FN's anemic ammo available to the public (as I addressed earlier) is the 1700fps (SS197 ammo) -2100fps (SS192 and SS195) ammo that you speak of. Elites S4 super raptor is 2600 fps, many of their other rounds are 2000 fps and beyond. 22 magnums from pistol length barrels are 1300 fps or so, (See Kel-Tec PMR-30). I own a 22 magnum RIFLE and the Five Seven handgun and have tested them on different mediums. No one who has done this would call them even remotely similar. The Secret Service agents inside the White House carry Five Sevens as backups to the P90 bullpup. Im pretty sure its not rabbits they are arming against.

[Alaskapopo]

And this is the type of misinformation I am talking about. Elite Ammuntion's self defense rounds range from 2100 to 2600 fps FROM the PISTOL. Go the website. FN's anemic ammo available to the public (as I addressed earlier) is the 1700fps (SS197 ammo) -2100fps (SS192 and SS195) ammo that you speak of. Elites S4 super raptor is 2600 fps, many of their other rounds are 2000 fps and beyond. 22 magnums from pistol length barrels are 1300 fps or so, (See Kel-Tec PMR-30). I own a 22 magnum RIFLE and the Five Seven handgun and have tested them on different mediums. No one who has done this would call them even remotely similar. But then again, I realize most people just go with what they read, not with what they test themselves. The Secret Service agents inside the White House carry Five Sevens as backups to the P90 bullpup. Im pretty sure its not rabbits they are arming against.
From the website you mention.

FiveseveN Pistol
1,800fps - 385 Ft-Lb’s 55 grain ball

2,092fps - 389 Ft-Lb’s 40 grain Vmax

Color me unimpressed. It still way too light with way too little penetraiton, too little permanent crush cavity. Basically a 22 mag. Give me a 9mm JHP over it any day. This is also assuming those figures are correct. I would like to see some third party verification.


Dr. Fackler on the 5.7
"The article 'FN's FiveseveN System (No.v/Dec. 1999 p.40) seriously misrepresents the wounding capacity of the 31-gr. P90 bullet. Claiming it "produces a wound cavity that is similar to that of the 5.56 mm NATO ammunition is an absurd exaggeration. The 31-gr. P90 bullet has only half the weight of the M16A2 bullet - and its velocity is about 1000 f.p.s. less. (The reference was intended to convey that it is an FMJ design, not that it has equal energy and wounding characteristics to the 5.56x45 mm cartridge. - The Eds).

The amount of tissue disruption propduced by the P90 bullet is less than one-third of that produced by a well-designed expanding 9x19mm handgun bullet. And the P90 produces a temporary cavity of only about 8cm diameter - smaller than that of an expanding 9mm handgun bullet. Most of the P90's bullet's wounding potential is wasted in producing a temporary cavity that is too small to be a reliable wounding mechanism. The P90 bullet doesn't even come close to matching the wounding capacity of a well-designed, expanding 9mm handgun bullet.

The light recoil of the P90 should hardly come as a surprise: The momentum and kinetic energy of its bullets are only about half that of the .22 Hornet bullet. The P90 bullet's wounding potential is about equal to that of the .22 WMR bullet. The laws of physics cannot be denied - minimal recoil is inconsistent with maximal tissue disruption.

For the military, where any wound is often all that is required to cause an enemy soldier to leave the battlefield, perhaps this tiny P90 bullet is OK. Law enforcement officers are often faced with armed violent criminals at close range. In that scenario, a bullet capable of disrupting a significant amount of tissue is needed: One must incapacitate a criminal, a minor wound will not suffice. By no stretch of the imagination is the P90 bullet adequate for that task.

References for further reading in the Wound Ballistics Review are: Vol. 3, No. 3, 1998 (pp. 36-37) 'Corrections on the Wound Ballistics of the current FN P90 bullet'; Vol. 3, No. 1, 1997 (pp. 44-45) "more on the bizarre FN P90'; and Vol. 1., No. 1, 1991 (p. 46) 'Description of the first generation P90.' These may be obtained from the IWBA by calling (310) 640-6065, or its website at www.IWBA.com.

Marvin L. Fackler, MD, FACS,
President, Int'l Wound Ballistics Ass'n.

I also suggest you read this thread right here on m4 carbine.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

[Burdy]

You found their heaviest round and quoted the velocity to attempt to prove your point. Why didn't you just head straight for the subsonics? Also the review you quote is using FN SS190, the EXACT round I quoted as being anemic against soft tissue above. I am 100% positive you have never used a 5.7x28 round in anything other than FN's offerings (go ahead, tell me Im right), or we would not be having this conversation. If mass times velocity was all there was to it, we would all be shooting nothing but 10mm.

[orionz06]

If I am not mistaken, havent ALL rounds from all weapons been basically proven useless in most SD cases?

[Alaskapopo]

Wow you are something else. You found their heaviest round and quoted the velocity to attempt to prove your point. Why didn't you just head straight for the subsonics? Also the review you quote is using FN SS190, the EXACT round I quoted as being anemic against soft tissue above. I am 100% positive you have never used a 5.7x28 round in anything other than FN's offerings (go ahead, tell me Im right), or we would not be having this conversation. If mass times velocity was all there was to it, we would all be shooting nothing but 10mm.
Frankly I would not trust a 20 or 32 grain bullet to do anything but piss an attacker off.
And frankly Muzzle energy is only part of the equation. Momentum is also a huge part of it as well. The equation for momentum is mass times velocity. The 5.7 simply lacks power to penetrate reliably in bone and even in soft tissue to 12 inches. If fails miserably in all of the FBI's tests. Its not even worth considering. I find it amusing that people would consider defending their life with what is essentially a small game hunting round. As for using the 5.7 why would I waste my money on one and ignore the leading experts in the field of terminal performance like Dr. Fackler and Dr. Roberts. The subsonics in this caliber probably have the best chance of stopping the threat.
Pat

[Burdy]

I agree with Fackler's statements. Not sure why you have not caught on to that yet. Im just telling you that the test was run with about the worst round you can think of in soft tissue from a 5.7. Its like saying a Dodge Caravan is not a fast car to the guy that has one with a viper motor swapped in. Apples to oranges. I dont know why you continue to quote SS190 ballistics only, knowing that is the under performer here.


This is a video of just FN's ANEMIC factory ammo vs 9mm. Elite's offering are leagues above the factory loads. And yes, I know this test means nothing, as the medium is not proper, but you mentioned lack of penetration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERxZrzigoK4

[DocGKR]

”AP rounds are made for piercing armor, not massive tissue damage, although the bullets do tumble and yaw which create larger wounds than other FMJ or AP rounds.”

Actually, just about all AP projectiles yaw in tissue, for example M2, M993, M995—all of which create substantially larger wounds than SS190.


”With the right ammunition, the 5.7x28mm cartridge will travel between 2100 and 2600 fps, a realm that produces severe hydrostatic shock and will produce MASSIVE wound cavities when combined with either hollow point or fragmenting bullets.”

Actually the projectiles create a larger temporary cavity, not hydrostatic shock; you might wish to read this basic information on wounding mechanism: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714

A decorated, experienced SWAT officer at a U.S. LE agency that has had multiple OIS incidents with 5.7 mm has written:


”The 5.7 pistol as a carry gun is a mistake. There are far more effective weapons and ammunition combinations out there. The only factor that comes close to equalizing the P90 (not the 5.7 pistol) is it's full auto capability: 900 rpm of very controllable fire. Even this advantage is limited to close-in, CQB type engagements. I can put more rounds on target faster with the P90 than with my M4 in close contact engagements. Unfortunately you may HAVE to put more rounds in the threat due to the lack of damage the projectile causes. The 5.56 is far more effective at getting the attention of men than 5.7 mm. This is not speculation. We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been multiple BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more 5.7 mm systems”

Pat Rogers, one of the most highly respected firearms trainers in the world, has also commented on the use of small caliber PDW’s like 5.7 mm:


” Multiple rounds are required to incapacitate. This means significantly more training, which translates into significantly more ammunition expended, at a higher cost per round and with limited sources available.

To ensure immediate incapacitation, brain shots will need to be emphasized. Which requires more training, and also more insertion of luck into the equation- especially dealing with multiple opponents.

Limited capability within the system means engagement at anything outside of CQB distances may be problematic.

This means movement to objective, egress etc will present a whole new range of difficulties.

The gun is easy to shoot and fun as well. This does not always translate well to real world applications.

If there is a single reason why this platform is in any way superior to the M4 FOW, it is not apparent to me.”

A large Federal agency noted for their P90 adoption is also no longer running 5.7mm’s like they used to given all the numerous deficiencies noted over the last several years of service…

We hope to test the Elite Ammunition 5.7 loads this year. Unfortunately, from what has been released so far, the performance does not look particularly good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOP3u7ueI-g&feature=player_embedded

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1502

If EA ammo is a quantum leap forward, it is somewhat unusual that NO Tier One units, let alone plain green/white SOF units are using it…


”In the end, I carry the FN Five Seven every day for a few reasons. It is extraordinarily light for a full size handgun (probably THE lightest), I shoot it better than any other pistol by a LONG shot, its it very controllable under rapid fire, has never failed me and 20+1 goes on forever in a pistol. In short it inspires confidence that I simply cant get anywhere else.”

Now those are some great reasons for YOU to carry an FN57; it is always a good idea to shoot what is most accurate and reliable for YOU. The one caveat is to make sure you have tested that hypothesis in a demanding training environment, proven over time to offer real world relevance--something like Magpul Dynamics, EAG, Trident Concepts, VTAC, CSAT, Vickers Tactical, Pistoltraining.com, ITTS, TigerSwan, etc...

[Burdy]

DocGKR,
I have read all those reports you have posted, and obviously there is a lot of factual data there, but they are still using FN's offerings, and Im certainly not here to defend FN factory ammo, somehow Im still trying to establish that fact.
I would think it would be obvious that identically jacketed bullets fired from a 5.56 weapon will be more affective than the 5.7 given the differences in weight and velocity. I have in NO WAY suggested otherwise when it comes to RIFLE ballistics. I cant fire a M993 or M995 from a pistol, so that argument is null and void to me.
I do appreciate your method of conversation however and thanks for the post.
Out of curiosity, what is it in the two videos you posted that you find to "not look too good?"
Oh and BTW, I have the "Art of the Dynamic Handgun DVDs, does that count? J/K
;)

[DocGKR]

Permanent crush cavity seems a bit small and TC is nothing to write home about; hopefully more controlled and accurately measured testing may reveal additional information.


"Oh and BTW, I have the "Art of the Dynamic Handgun DVDs, does that count?"

I'm afraid not--you're going to need to get out and run the pistol for a minimum of 300-500 rounds a day over at least 2-3 days to get a sense of how it will do.

[Burdy]

Doc,
I would be willing to send you a few rounds of the S5 PFP 32 grain when they come in for your own testing if you will post the results. Preferably side by side with some 9mm SD ammo.
The DVD thing was a joke.

[DocGKR]

"The DVD thing was a joke."

Yup...I know, however, my dry sense of humor required me to give you a sardonic answer.

Thanks for the ammunition offer; if Mr. Herle comes through with his offer of test ammo, it won't be necessary, but I will let you know if things change.

[Burdy]

Thanks for the ammunition offer; if Mr. Herle comes through with his offer of test ammo, it won't be necessary, but I will let you know if things change.

I dont think Mr. Herle can provide you with the S5 PFP, as his company does not manufacture them. I believe you are referring to Elite Ammunition West, which is NOT Elite Ammunition.

[DocGKR]

Ah...I believe you are correct; thank you.