View Full Version : Improving accuracy on Glock 19
I am looking for items to improve the accuracy on the Glock 19. Before we begin let me give a disclaimer....
- I know that Glocks are designed for "combat accuracy" vs match
- I know more rounds and practice is the best way to imporve accuracy
- I am a great shot with a lot of other rifles and handguns as well as this one
What I am asking is how can i make it even better? I shoot well the the G19, but I want to make it as accurate as possible. I have read about a match grade slide lock that is supposed to help out alot and I am planing on buying one. I also am considering a SS match barrel. Is there anything else I should research to make this gun better?
Thanks,
Jeff
Sgt/USMC
If I was looking to make my G19 (or any of my other Glocks) more accurate this is what I would do:
- Replace the barrel with either a Lone Wolf, Storm Lake or KKM barrel. I've gotten slightly better accuracy out of my Lone Wolf barrels over the OEM ones. I mentioned this to The Katar and after purchasing a Lone Wolf barrel he noted slightly better accuracy as well.
- Replace the connector with either a #4.5 OEM or Lone Wolf one.
- Replace the sights with some good sights like Heinie's or Warrens.
That's about all I would do but I can't outshoot a stock Glock yet so there isn't any need for me to spend a ton of money or time since I'm not going to gain anything from it.
If I was looking to make my G19 (or any of my other Glocks) more accurate this is what I would do:
- Replace the barrel with either a Lone Wolf, Storm Lake or KKM barrel. I've gotten slightly better accuracy out of my Lone Wolf barrels over the OEM ones. I mentioned this to The Katar and after purchasing a Lone Wolf barrel he noted slightly better accuracy as well.
- Replace the connector with either a #4.5 OEM or Lone Wolf one.
- Replace the sights with some good sights like Heinie's or Warrens.
That's about all I would do but I can't outshoot a stock Glock yet so there isn't any need for me to spend a ton of money or time since I'm not going to gain anything from it.
How much difference did you notice out of the lone wolf barrel?
Also, can you direct me to a link for the lone wolf or 4.5 connecter?
Thanks
How much difference did you notice out of the lone wolf barrel?
I don't know dude...better is the only way I can describe it. I don't shoot for 1" or 1/2" groups or anything like that so I don't know how to measure it.
Here's a link to a pretty thorough article on modifying a Glock. Some of these changes are purported to increase accuracy.
http://www.realguns.com/archives/145.htm (there's a part II link at the bottom of that link as well)
Some also say that the TR Graham Glock Slide Lock also improves and makes lock up more consistent with the result being a significant accuracy improvement, but I have no experience with this part.
Singlestack Wonder
04-10-10, 15:39
Disagree on changing out the stock barrel. The hexagonal (or octagonal on .45's) rifling was designed for the inconsistency in bullet shapes and diameters by manufacturers in Europe. If a particular bullet was out of spec, it was in spec once the barrel reformed it before it exited. It's an urban myth that KKM, Lone Wolf, etc. barrels are more accurate. Federal Ammunition uses only Glock barrels to test their handgun ammo. Too many times Glock owners change out the barrel AND trigger then claim more accuracy. Installing a lighter trigger makes it easier for the shooter to follow thru on the trigger pull resulting in a better grouping. My Glocks will produce 3/4" groups at 25 yards all day from a sandbag. OK...here come the arrows...:cool:
Disagree on changing out the stock barrel. The hexagonal (or octagonal on .45's) rifling was designed for the inconsistency in bullet shapes and diameters by manufacturers in Europe. If a particular bullet was out of spec, it was in spec once the barrel reformed it before it exited. It's an urban myth that KKM, Lone Wolf, etc. barrels are more accurate. Federal Ammunition uses only Glock barrels to test their handgun ammo. Too many times Glock owners change out the barrel AND trigger then claim more accuracy. Installing a lighter trigger makes it easier for the shooter to follow thru on the trigger pull resulting in a better grouping. My Glocks will produce 3/4" groups at 25 yards all day from a sandbag. OK...here come the arrows...:cool:
I picken up what your puttin down; what trigger do you recommend?
VooDoo6Actual
04-10-10, 15:57
BAR-STO
GLOCK WORX
Here's a link to a pretty thorough article on modifying a Glock. Some of these changes are purported to increase accuracy.
http://www.realguns.com/archives/145.htm (there's a part II link at the bottom of that link as well)
Some also say that the TR Graham Glock Slide Lock also improves and makes lock up more consistent with the result being a significant accuracy improvement, but I have no experience with this part.
Thanks for the link!
Singlestack Wonder
04-10-10, 16:07
I picken up what your puttin down; what trigger do you recommend?
So many times shooter want to replace everything (i.e. connector, trigger spring, changing out the trigger housing for one with an overtravel stop, etc.).
First of all, is this pistol going to be carried for self defense? If so, the most I would recommend is to change the 5# connector to the current 4.5# (used to be called the 3.5# connector until several engineers got into a peeing contest over metric vs. English conversions). This will result in a smoother trigger release. Try this first and work on your trigger technique (i.e. pulling the trigger back in a straight line and maintaining the sights for follow thru).
If the pistol is for competition only, besides the connector, the striker spring can be replaced with a Wolfe reduced power striker spring which will lower the trigger pull considerably. Beware if you reload and use hard primers such as CCI however. Usually this combination (with practice) results in a good trigger setup. My double taps with a stock connector average .18 to .19 seconds. With a 4.5# connector and reduced striker spring, the time goes down to .15 to .17 seconds. Keep in mind, that fast doubletaps are not an indication of accuracy, just fast synapse to brain activity. :D
There are a multitude of competition only trigger parts on the market today and you can spend several hundred dollars on a Glock trigger. No need to do all that, with a lot of practice, the results will be the same! Good luck!
i would put lightening the trigger on the top of the list. for a COMP gun, for carry i'd leave it be.
I've heard you can tighten up slide/frame fit by gently squeezing the slide in a vise. this also sounds like an excellent way to ruin a perfectly good slide, so proceed with caution. tight slide/frame fit will also improve your trigger slightly. if you unload your gun and slowly squeeze the trigger you'll notice the slide moves relative to the frame slighty as the trigger parts act on the striker.
You have a Glock 19--a great duty/service pistol. If you want a match/target/bullseye pistol, then get an appropriate one. Don't try to make your G19 into something it isn't...
Magic_Salad0892
04-10-10, 18:57
I hate that Glockenstein article.
The guy who wrote it is just a 1911 fanboy who hates Glocks.
You have a Glock 19--a great duty/service pistol. If you want a match/target/bullseye pistol, then get an appropriate one. Don't try to make your G19 into something it isn't...
I dont want a match/target pistol. I just want my G19 to have the maximum performance possible.
I agree with Doc, no matter what you do to a Glock, it still won't perform near as well as a pistol more designed for accuracy. It's a gun designed to be abused and put rounds on target, down range, not precision shooting.
decodeddiesel
04-10-10, 19:14
I dont want a match/target pistol. I just want my G19 to have the maximum performance possible.
Are you able to out shoot the pistol? By this I mean are you able to fire the pistol with the performance that it, and not you, is the limiting factor? I am not doubting you, you could be the the best pistol shot in the world...but you need to ask yourself this.
If not then your money is best spent on a case of 9mm ammo and perhaps a training class.
I guess my expectations for a firearm are lower than most. If it works when I pull the trigger I am happy. I am definately the failure mode in the Glock system..
Are you able to out shoot the pistol? By this I mean are you able to fire the pistol with the performance that it, and not you, is the limiting factor? I am not doubting you, you could be the the best pistol shot in the world...but you need to ask yourself this.
If not then your money is best spent on a case of 9mm ammo and perhaps a training class.
I shoot well, I just want better. No tack driver, just small, tight groups!
You have a Glock 19--a great duty/service pistol. If you want a match/target/bullseye pistol, then get an appropriate one. Don't try to make your G19 into something it isn't...
glock race guns are a legitimate persuit i'd say...
usually made from a 17L or 34, but no reason you couldn't tune a G19 as well...
i've put 7k+ through mine and still can't out-shoot it though, but i'm interested...
I've had good results with the ghost rocket connectors. They reduce the overtravel to a minimum
with no moving parts or screws, and come in different pull weights. Started with 4 lb and ended up
With 5lb; smooth and crisp, light enough for carry and matches. Do have jarvis barrel, but no more accurate than factory, but Allows lead with no fear.
I have a G-19 with gunsmith-installed Briley barrel comissioned by first owner. While it shoots a bit better than OEM I am unconvinced of added value. Ironically a single best group I shot from this pistol was from OEM barrel.
Here's a link to a pretty thorough article on modifying a Glock. Some of these changes are purported to increase accuracy.
http://www.realguns.com/archives/145.htm (there's a part II link at the bottom of that link as well)
Some also say that the TR Graham Glock Slide Lock also improves and makes lock up more consistent with the result being a significant accuracy improvement, but I have no experience with this part.
I disagreed with pretty much everything he says about Glocks and most of the modifications he suggests are not needed. Replacing parts like this is also not good for reliability. To the OP it's your money but very few people can outshoot any modern pistols inherent accuracy. I really wouldn't waste the time or money. As far as triggers go I used to lighten them but stock has been fine for me for awhile.
I disagreed with pretty much everything he says about Glocks and most of the modifications he suggests are not needed. Replacing parts like this is also not good for reliability. To the OP it's your money but very few people can outshoot any modern pistols inherent accuracy. I really wouldn't waste the time or money. As far as triggers go I used to lighten them but stock has been fine for me for awhile.
I agree, but the OP wanted to explore the road of mods that may make the pistol more accurate, and that article does a very good job at describing commonly done mods in very good detail.
Are they needed? For a range/gaming gun I think that's for each individual to decide. One can make a very strong argument that they are not needed, as even Dave Sevigny only uses a "-" connector and a $.25 trigger job and doesn't dick around with steel guide rods or aftermarket barrels, or any other mods. But if someone wants to tinker with their gun, that article is a decent primer.
I certainly agree that for a self defense pistol I would absolutely keep it stock to retain its inherent reliability (although I personally have gone to the NY-1/"-" trigger set up, which, if nothing else, only increases the reliability of the gun).
I certainly agree that for a self defense pistol I would absolutely keep it stock to retain its inherent reliability (although I personally have gone to the NY-1/"-" trigger set up, which, if nothing else, only increases the reliability of the gun).
I can see why people like that trigger setup even though it does little for me but it isn't any more reliable than the stock trigger. The standard trigger spring used to be a little more fragile than the NY 1 but that was fixed some time ago.
i found a number of references to glocks in ransom rests keeping a group well inside 2" at 25 yards.
probably your best bet for accuracy would be reloading yourself some quality ammo that's tuned to your gun.
or do like me and reload the cheapest ammo you can and shoot the crap out of it (probably more benefit there) :D
John_Wayne777
04-12-10, 09:51
- I know more rounds and practice is the best way to imporve accuracy
So far in my life I have never missed a shot that I've fired because the gun was incapable of making the hit required.
What I've learned over the years by spending ungodly sums of money on a bunch of different guns and ungodly sums of money on ammo is that the best way to improve accuracy is to improve my shooting skills. There is absolutely no greater return on investment to be found in the shooting world than working on fundamental skills under the supervision of a competent instructor and then practicing what you've been taught.
- I am a great shot with a lot of other rifles and handguns as well as this one
I say this with all due respect and with every intention of helping you achieve your goals:
How do you know you are a "great shot"? What standard drills can you give us to quantify what "great" actually means? I often find that a lot of people use a very lopsided metric to define their skillset. If you're a competitive bullseye shooter involved in formal competitions and you perform well, you probably are a very good shot. If that kind of thing is what you are looking to accomplish, a Glock is the wrong gun for the task.
If you are a master-class IDPA shooter and you're looking to shrink the margin of error on your Glock, etc...then gear changes might make sense.
If you aren't at that level, odds are there is no mechanical improvement that will come anywhere close to the benefits of good training. It is especially inadvisable, in my opinion, to take what is generally a fundamentally good handgun like a G19 and start modifying it with a bunch of aftermarket parts if you intend to carry the gun as a defensive tool. Aftermarket parts often compromise the reliability of the weapon.
As for the options you mentioned, my question would be this: What makes them "match grade"? What metric does the manufacturer use to measure whether or not the item is "match grade" or some other grade? What does "match grade" even mean?
I see the term "match grade" thrown around almost as much as "milspec" but I'm convinced that few of the manufacturers labeling things "match grade" are using it as anything other than a buzz-word to sell products.
Great post JW. Couldn't agree more.
Magic_Salad0892
04-12-10, 15:06
There are handgun parts, on my Glock 17, that are worthwhile upgrades, that helped out my groupings, that are marketed as being ''Match Grade'' shouldn't really be called ''Match Grade''
Match Grade Slide Lock - Great addition, 3000 rounds without a hiccup.
I wouldn't put it on a match grade pistol though.
A Glock is a combat pistol, not a match gun. We have 1911s for that.
I am looking for items to improve the accuracy on the Glock 19. Before we begin let me give a disclaimer....
- I know that Glocks are designed for "combat accuracy" vs match
- I know more rounds and practice is the best way to imporve accuracy
- I am a great shot with a lot of other rifles and handguns as well as this one
What I am asking is how can i make it even better? I shoot well the the G19, but I want to make it as accurate as possible. I have read about a match grade slide lock that is supposed to help out alot and I am planing on buying one. I also am considering a SS match barrel. Is there anything else I should research to make this gun better?
Thanks,
Jeff
Sgt/USMC
this probably something you don't want to read, but I think proper hand load development will gain better accuracy than any mechanical additions.
fwiw,
Mark
this probably something you don't want to read, but I think proper hand load development will gain better accuracy than any mechanical additions.
I spoke with an instructor type a while back about replacing my barrel to pick up a bit of accuracy. He advised that the stock barrel is ok, but most of us shoot ammo that is less than ideal (how good is that bulk WWB from Wally World?). By switching to a higher quality ammunition or working up a good practice load, you'll find the gun is much more accurate than you might think.
I'm not saying my G19 turns into a laser when I shoot Gold Dots, but I do notice an improvement over bulk 9mm.
There are two areas where the Glock barrel can be improved upon if accuracy is the major concern.
The Glock barrel lockup is loose and the chamber is loose.
I had Barsto fit one of their barrels to one of my Glock 23s. With that barrel and an Optima dot sight the gun could put ten rounds of 180gr ammo into a 1.5" hole at 25yds off a rest.
I had Barsto fit one of their barrels to one of my Glock 17s. That gun could put ten rounds into 1.5" using iron sights at 25yds off a rest. This was a few years ago when my eyesight was better.
The Barsto barrels improved my off the rest groups by about an inch at 25yds due I think to tighter lock up and chambers.
In a 1911 most of the accuracy comes from tighter more consistent lock up with a quality barrel. Slide to frame fit is only a small contributor unless you are using a Ransom rest for testing.
A good trigger is necessary for most of us to get the accuracy out of the gun.
Here is a fitting quote for this subject.
"Do not be preoccupied with inconsequential increments." --LtCol Jeff Cooper USMC
To increase the inherent accuracy of your G19 for target shooting , you can get a high quality match grade barrel fitted by someone who knows what they are doing. To get better practical accuracy from your G19 when it will be used to defend your life for real, stick with the factory G19 barrel, but try different weight bullets, 115,124,127,147gr. to see which is the most accurate and also make sure your shooting fundamentals are correct and then practice, practice, practice.
Littlelebowski
04-13-10, 12:06
Lots of interesting recommendations in here, many not addressing the need of practice and most trying to solve software problems with hardware solutions. JW777 nailed it. For those fo you blathering on about triggers and custom barrels, you should see what Failure To Stop can do with a stock Glock 19. Scary.....
I believe that John Wayne 777, DocGKR and decodeddiesel have most succinctly summed it up. Get a case of decent 9mm, participate in competition, obtain some training from a quality instructor, and practice (both dry-and live-fire).
About the only constructive thing I'd have to add would be to replace the OEM polymer sights with some steel ones, for durability.
In the case of the G19, developing software skills trumps any likely gains to be had from hardware replacements.
Best, Jon
In the case of the G19, developing software skills trumps any likely gains to be had from hardware replacements.
In other words, try tightening up the nut behind the trigger.
"So far in my life I have never missed a shot that I've fired because the gun was incapable of making the hit required." JW, that's sig line material.
I have every Glock in 9mm and the best and only mod I do is heinie sights. its a huge improvement that i can't recommend enough.
kevin
I am looking for items to improve the accuracy on the Glock 19. Before we begin let me give a disclaimer....
What I am asking is how can i make it even better? I shoot well the the G19, but I want to make it as accurate as possible. I have read about a match grade slide lock that is supposed to help out alot and I am planing on buying one. I also am considering a SS match barrel. Is there anything else I should research to make this gun better?
Thanks,
Jeff
Sgt/USMC
Hey Sgt Jeff,
If you are so inclined to explore max inherent accuracy, have at it. IMO, the common feedback that unless you can outshoot your stock inherent accuracy, the excercise is pointless - is actually mistaken.
As marksmanship instructors explain it, no matter how well you can hold, your shots will land in a cone. The cone of the movement of the end of your barrel as you fire. Both your ammo and the inherent accuracy of your pistol will also be factors. Your cone of movement might be good enough to generate a 4" group at 25 yds if you were firing a laser beam. If your pistol however has fitting issues, lockups issues, a bad barrel etc, it might have an inherent 6" cone all by it's lonesome self. And if your shooting WWB it might have a 5" cone of capability.
So as your barrel movement swings around creating your cone, the inherent accuracy of your pistol's cone and ammo's cone will impact the groups on paper. And likely as not, that gun cone and ammo cone will not synch up nicely with your barrel movement cone while firing and you'll see groups larger than what you should be able to shoot with a laser.
So you'll very likely see an improvement in groups when you accurize any given pistol. Even if you haven't yet perfected your performance with your stock gun.
This happens all the time. Even if your not a master class shooter.
Now I carry a stock 19 and for this purpose I'm fine with stock accuracy - although I like almost everyone here will upgrade their sights. (to improve accuracy btw ;) But this isn't exactly a platform for bullseye competition. The trigger work is still number one.
But I find accurate handguns very interesting and fun. This is the only reason I still have one 1911, a superbly accurate TRP.
Good luck. Don't compromise reliability.
adrenaline151
04-14-10, 20:51
I have found the easiest way to get more accurate is also the cheapest- stand closer to the target. I changed the barrel on my 19, and the trigger spring, and the disconnector, and the mag release, and the sights, and the guide rod, and... Because I wanted to see if I changed everything I could find, if it would make the Glock less reliable. I've had 2 FTEs in 660 rounds. Not flawless, but I can't say for sure if those 2 pieces of brass would have failed to eject had I not done any mods. (They were both identical malfunctions- the empty brass laying right on top of the new round headed to the chamber, like a stovepipe, but horizontal instead of vertical). My 19 is as accurate as I have ever been with a pistol, but the only thing that has increased my accuracy any measurable amount is practice.
Robb Jensen
04-14-10, 21:00
Sorry bud you might not want to believe it but 1% of all Glock accuracy problems are the gun....99% its the shooter.
There is no 'free-lunch'. Learn to shoot better. It's usually (almost always) the problem.
I hate that Glockenstein article.
The guy who wrote it is just a 1911 fanboy who hates Glocks.
I read the article and thought it was pretty good. His assessment of the problems with Glocks was spot on.
C4
Magic_Salad0892
04-15-10, 00:54
Hey Grant.
All of the modifications he did were totally uneeded.
SS Guide Rod and barrel? Why did that have to happen?
He basically turned the Glock 17 into a 1911 and slammed everything that makes a Glock a Glock.
Sorry bud you might not want to believe it but 1% of all Glock accuracy problems are the gun....99% its the shooter.
There is no 'free-lunch'. Learn to shoot better. It's usually (almost always) the problem.
That's 100% correct. But the OP was about tweaking the gun. No different than the gigantic OCD tweaks on AR's for unmeasurable incremental improvements.
Once again another weapon system designed for a purpose and people try to make it something it wasn't intended for and wonder why it may cause problems.
Look at the 1911,M14/M1A, even the AR system in some regards.
If you want a "combat arm" to be a bulleye pistol/precision rig, then it comes at some sacrifice.
As mentioned, practice on the fundementals and use it for what's it's made for. Don't get caught up in making it a toy.
Robb Jensen
04-15-10, 06:55
That's 100% correct. But the OP was about tweaking the gun. No different than the gigantic OCD tweaks on AR's for unmeasurable incremental improvements.
Thanks I guess I should stop reading titles to threads.
"Improving accuracy on Glock 19"
A Glock doesn't need much more than a better set of sights and a lighter connector. I use a 3.5lb Ghost connector a NY1 trigger spring and Warren Tactical sights.
Sparky5019
04-15-10, 07:07
As far as improving the gun...glockworx fulcrum trigger is excellent, sights of your choice, Pearce plug, Aro-Tek Sure Touch mag release! I also recommend a SS captive rod w/ ISMI spring of your choice. Lone Wolf barrel good but certainly not required! Enjoy!
Sparky
Littlelebowski
04-15-10, 08:22
Here's a link to a pretty thorough article on modifying a Glock. Some of these changes are purported to increase accuracy.
http://www.realguns.com/archives/145.htm (there's a part II link at the bottom of that link as well)
Just read that. Stunning waste of time.
Thanks I guess I should stop reading titles to threads.
"Improving accuracy on Glock 19"
A Glock doesn't need much more than a better set of sights and a lighter connector. I use a 3.5lb Ghost connector a NY1 trigger spring and Warren Tactical sights.
On the GEN 4, I think you are right. On the GEN 3, I would also upgrade the mag release.
C4
Here are Vickers list of tweaks/fixes for the GEN 3 Glock:
Required:
1) good nite sights (Heinie straight eights are hard to beat but there are
many good choices on the market)
2) My mag release from Tangodown
Optional but highly recommended;
1) Buttplug - type that has nice blend into magwell (Glockmeister I think)
2) Removal of finger grooves
3) David Bowie 360 degree stipple job
4) Glock extended slide release ** left handers only
C4
Littlelebowski
04-15-10, 08:46
We are diverting into "personal tastes upgrades" instead of necessary upgrades.
We are diverting into "personal tastes upgrades" instead of necessary upgrades.
Somewhat. When Vickers says that something is needed and or a good idea, then you can pretty much gurantee that it is something that is needed.
C4
John_Wayne777
04-15-10, 09:07
Here are Vickers list of tweaks/fixes for the GEN 3 Glock:
Required:
1) good nite sights (Heinie straight eights are hard to beat but there are
many good choices on the market)
2) My mag release from Tangodown
Optional but highly recommended;
1) Buttplug - type that has nice blend into magwell (Glockmeister I think)
2) Removal of finger grooves
3) David Bowie 360 degree stipple job
4) Glock extended slide release ** left handers only
C4
I regard good sights and the Vickers mag release as necessary upgrades to the Glock...but none of those effect the core function of the weapon. All of my Glocks wear the Vickers mag release and Warren sights. I leave everything else basically alone.
The basic premise of buying a Glock and looking to replace half the internals to chase slightly smaller group sizes seems, to me anyway, to be counterproductive.
I regard good sights and the Vickers mag release as necessary upgrades to the Glock...but none of those effect the core function of the weapon. All of my Glocks wear the Vickers mag release and Warren sights. I leave everything else basically alone.
The basic premise of buying a Glock and looking to replace half the internals to chase slightly smaller group sizes seems, to me anyway, to be counterproductive.
I agree. The reason why you buy a polymer gun is because it cheap. It does need new sights and a new mag release for certain.
LAV was pointing out the things he would like to see changed to enhance the gun.
C4
Littlelebowski
04-15-10, 10:37
I classify his recommendations as optional enhancements that will help your handling of the gun but not necessary. Like I said, I've seen some fine shooting with a stock Glock upgraded only with better sights.
I agree. The reason why you buy a polymer gun is because it cheap. It does need new sights and a new mag release for certain.
LAV was pointing out the things he would like to see changed to enhance the gun.
C4
I disagree, at least in my case. The reason I got into Glocks was because of their reliability and durability. Their price per se was relatively immaterial in my decision process-I've had, and have far more expensive pistols. Glocks are a predominate platform for me due to their performance, not their price.
Regarding the Glockenstein article, I though that it was entertaining, well thought out and well written. While I'm unconvinced of the need to go to after-market barreling to achieve requisite accuracy, the author did do a good job of empirically testing and describing his results. His testing of recoil spring assemblys was interesting, but I think relevant only insofar as they provide an ability to tailor/fine tune gun and specific cartridge performances. I'm personally unconvinced of the alleged fragility of the OEM recoil spring assembly/guide rod-I strongly suspect that most of the breakages he cites have to do with improperly installing the assembly flange in the half-moon crescent cut in the barrel lug than any material weaknesses in the component itself. And unless one is truly knowledgeable regarding the swapping out/substitution of aftermarket recoil spring assemblies for the OEM component, I think that the end result is more likely to be compromised reliability as opposed to platform improvement.
The author's analysis of frame/receiver rail bearing area on Glocks vs the other guns compared completely missed the point; Glock's short receiver rails work, and do so with minimized metal-on-metal bearing area, in turn both minimizing lubrication requirements and the potential for detrius build-up.
The original poster asked what he could do to improve his accuracy with his G19. I think that a useful answer is for him to establish his baseline skills, improve them, and then consider making incrimental changes to the hardware on his G19. Throwing on "stuff" is expensive and arguably immaterial if one's skill and discernment isn't sufficient to appreciate and benefit from them-especially since, as many of us have commented, the basic G19 platform itself is exceptionally good. Glocks were intended primarily to be combat/duty/self-defense guns; an ability to compete with any parity with Camp Perry type guns is pretty low on their intended mission platform (even concerning the longslide G17L, G24, G34 and G35 models). Yes, like has been demonstrated with the Beretta 92 platform by the AMU and others such probably can be achieved, but likely at the expense of disproportionate cost/effort.
I guess at the end of the day, we need to sit back and determine where we stand with our individual skill-sets and platforms, and objectively determine what our specific goals are, and how to accomplish them with the resources available. Something that I personally feel is not viable or worthwhile might well be the opposite for someone else.
Best, Jon
Littlelebowski
04-15-10, 14:11
Exactly how many times have people in this thread seen Glock plastic guide rods break and lock up the whole gun? I haven't but I have personally experienced problems with a metal guide rod.
I really don't think the problem is statistically significant nor measurable but maybe I'm wrong.
Magic_Salad0892
04-15-10, 15:48
Hey MS0892,
Incorrect. The mods I read were of value.
Ever see the PLASTIC guide rod on the Glock take a hit and break? I have. Locks the whole gun up. ;)
Extended mag release? Needed. I would have gone with the TD/Vickers version, but it is still needed. Butt plug? Needed.
New sights? Needed.
Did you see the accuracy difference between the factory Glock barrel and the Storm Lake? I would classify that as a worthwhile upgrade.
No, he did not turn the Glock into a 1911 (as it still wouldn't shoot as smoothly as a 1911). ;)
C4
You were right about the extended magazine catch, and slide lock lever.
But I've seen the polymer guide rod take a LOT of abuse, and also how many rounds I've put on the Glock platform as a whole. I've never seen a Glock polymer guide rod rail.
Now, I've seen a lot of problems with SS aftermarket guide rods. I've seen them end up gouging the polymer frame on a Glock 21.
Also, I think peoples groups with SS barrels tightening up is just a placebo thing, because they already believe they're going to shoot a tighter group with it before they put it in or whatever.
The stock barrel will have a much longer service life, and have more accuracy than it's shooters.
Also, you mentioned LAV's article on the Glock platform, and stated that if he says it then it's pretty much needed.
Nowhere on that list was a replacement barrel, or guide rod.
However I do disagree with him in that I don't think I need or want the Bowie's 360 degree stipple job or removal of the finger grooves. I like the finger grooves. :)
Grant, I'd appreciate details about any broken polymer guide rods you've seen though.
BTW: Great thread a while back about DI Suppressed SBRs. I liked that. :)
C4IGrant, while we've never met, I suspect that your skill level is a bit higher than the average, and I suspect also that you have more than enough experience and expertise to know the right components/modifications to do with your Glocks for them to meet your personal needs while remaining operationally uncompromised.
On the other hand, I suspect that the average Glock user is far more likely to screw up a guide rod assembly by improperly installing it, and is far more likely to run into operational problems by swapping out OEM components with aftermarket ones, then they are to break the OEM guide rod by dropping the pistol.
Interestingly enough, the military encountered reoccurring problems with the Beretta M9's metal guide rod being rendered inoperable when dropped (presumably when attached to the pistol), and requested the component be changed to a fluted polymer one...
Dennis Tueller taught my Glock Armorers class in '08, and the only breakage issues I recall being discussed where those in conjunction with improper installation of the rod. Component replacement with an aftermarket part wasn't discussed, and Dennis was a pretty down-to-earth guy, calling the shots as he saw them.
Please don't get me wrong; I'm not in the least questioning your veracity-I don't doubt that what you described was as it occurred, I just think that in the overall spectrum of things Glock, the average user is far better off just leaving things alone regarding the guide rod/guide rod assembly, and conversely, is far more likely to experience/induce problems if the OEM guide rod is switched out for an aftermarket one.
Best, Jon
My experience with metal guide rods are just the opposite. On two separate occasions at the Sunday matches at BW va_dinger and I have seen one Glock with a busted plastic guide rod continue to run and one with a metal one lock up.
My theory is this; if your gun came with a metal guide rod run a metal guide rod. If it came with a plastic guide rod run a plastic guide rod.
My current G19 guide rod has over 7000 through it and the one in my G17 has over 5000 through it. I'm not worried.
Now, if you want to dick around with spring weights and stuff then run a metal one but usually those folks don't carry and rely on it to save their ass.
Magic_Salad0892
04-16-10, 12:57
''Don't think so. It has to do with how the barrel locks up with the slide. I replaced the barrel in my M&P and noticed a difference. According to S&W, their barrels shoot better with +P ammo. I don't shoot that ammo''
Match Grade Slide Lock.
I have one. It works. 100% reliable.
Leave the stock barrel in.
C4IGrant, while we've never met, I suspect that your skill level is a bit higher than the average, and I suspect also that you have more than enough experience and expertise to know the right components/modifications to do with your Glocks for them to meet your personal needs while remaining operationally uncompromised.
You over estimate my knowledge and ability. :D
On the other hand, I suspect that the average Glock user is far more likely to screw up a guide rod assembly by improperly installing it, and is far more likely to run into operational problems by swapping out OEM components with aftermarket ones, then they are to break the OEM guide rod by dropping the pistol.
You could be right, but DAMN. How hard is it to install a guide rod??? IMHO, if you cannot field strip your gun, change out parts and maintain it, you shouldn't be allowed to own it.
Interestingly enough, the military encountered reoccurring problems with the Beretta M9's metal guide rod being rendered inoperable when dropped (presumably when attached to the pistol), and requested the component be changed to a fluted polymer one...
Interesting. I don't follow the M9/92 at all. I just know that I don't care for it.
Please don't get me wrong; I'm not in the least questioning your veracity-I don't doubt that what you described was as it occurred, I just think that in the overall spectrum of things Glock, the average user is far better off just leaving things alone regarding the guide rod/guide rod assembly, and conversely, is far more likely to experience/induce problems if the OEM guide rod is switched out for an aftermarket one.
Best, Jon
They could be. I also understand that gun manufacturers attempt extract EVERY penny they can from the weapon. Knowing this, I find some corners that are cut a no go and will replace those items that are lacking.
Being more an AR guy than a pistol guy, the stuff that these pistol manufacturers pull to squeeze as much money out of as possible would NEVER fly with an AR manufacturer. They would be called on it, and it would be all over the net as not producing a quality product.
The equivalent to Glock using plastic sights, plastic guide rod, etc is an AR that comes with a commercial receiver extension, 4140 barrel steel (1/9 twist with a .223 chamber) and a polymer upper receiver.
Glock is not the only one guilty of cutting corners on their pistols. They all do it.
C4
My experience with metal guide rods are just the opposite. On two separate occasions at the Sunday matches at BW va_dinger and I have seen one Glock with a busted plastic guide rod continue to run and one with a metal one lock up.
My theory is this; if your gun came with a metal guide rod run a metal guide rod. If it came with a plastic guide rod run a plastic guide rod.
My current G19 guide rod has over 7000 through it and the one in my G17 has over 5000 through it. I'm not worried.
Now, if you want to dick around with spring weights and stuff then run a metal one but usually those folks don't carry and rely on it to save their ass.
So you saw another Guide rod break huh. Interesting. I was reading on GT about them breaking, but I always have to take what I read on that forum with a grain of salt.
There are a bunch of metal guide rods out there. Some of them are so complex that they might as well have a computer on them. I am not a fan of these. Something simple that allows me to change the springs out when they become worn out.
Edited to add, Glocks (GEN 4) DO come with a metal guide rod. So if we look at the GEN 4's as an enhancement to the product, then we can say that Glock realized that plastic guide rods weren't the best idea and changed them out to a metal one??? I gotta think that if they were such a great idea, they would have kept them. They were for certain a cheaper option than the metal ones they went too and since manufacturers are after saving as much money as possible when making pistol's I have to think they realized that they were a shortcoming with the gun.
C4
Littlelebowski
04-16-10, 14:29
Grant, I don't agree with your reasoning at all. As far as I can see your analogy about the AR and the Glock doesn't hold up except for the plastic sights because the Glock barrels are fine and the build of the pistol while of cheap materials is durable and reliable for not that much money. Would you rather Glock frames be hand carved out of one block of steel/polymer/unobtanium? Yeah, Glocks are made cheaply. Does that mean they're not worth the money or are you just complaining about their price point since Glocks have proven themselves countless times over.
And you're implying that Glock realized that plastic guide rods were not durable hence the Gen4 metal units. You know better than that but I'll rehash it: Glock brought those guiderods with integrated springs to directly address G22 reliability issues. The design being what it is, plastic wouldn't work for the metal sheath and integrated springs in one unit. Glock being Glock decided to use the same unit on both 9mm and .40 Glocks, hence the issues with brand new Gen4 9mms and weaker ammo (my issues went away as the spring unit broke in).
You should not confuse the facts like that to support your contention that the plastic guide rods are actually a reliability issue. Show us some statistical data.
So you saw another Guide rod break huh. Interesting.
No, the one that va_dinger and I saw was a result of some guy dicking around with the stock one, trying to change the spring on an OEM guide rod.
When he realized he screwed up he jammed it back in there and shot the match.
Littlelebowski
04-17-10, 09:09
So much for the "they got rid of the plastic guide rod for durability issues" argument.
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Glock%20Gen4/P1000765.jpg
Robb Jensen
04-18-10, 19:31
I think their logic is that basically the slides would be 95% the same. Only real differences being the breach face cuts. And having to only make 1 recoil spring that fits both 9mm and .40 pistols. No one really knows what went on at Glock other than from what we can tell they did vastly improve the .40 Glock 22. Who knows what he decision makers wanted or did with the data from the engineers. People always doubt and 2nd guess the engineers. My best guess is that they probably figured that Units/Agencies who are using 9mm Glocks are most likely using +P or NATO pressure 9mm ammo and won't have any problems with the newer stiffer recoil spring.
I think Glock was getting so much bad press with Units/Agencies running Glock 22s and having problems and losing contracts (to the M&P40 and SIG P229s) that the main goal was to make the .40 cal Glock 22 thing work. I think 99% work was to fix the .40 and make it work and I think this eclipsed the 9mm. There's lot of LEOs using .40 Glocks and a lot fewer using 9mm Glocks. I think 9mm was an after thought, the Glock 17 Gen 3 ran and yes I agree they should have left the Gen 3 alone. Once agencies go larger in the case of going from 9mm to .357 SIG or .40 they will very likely never go back smaller.
I've currently switched my 9mm carry loads from the Winchester Ranger 127gr+P+ JHP to the Winchester PDX1 147gr JHP BONDED (a standard pressure ammo). My .40 carry load is the current FBI load the Winchester Ranger 180gr JHP, my .45 ACP carry load is the Winchester PDX1 230gr JHP BONDED (was the Winchester Ranger 230gr SXT and 230gr+P SXT, the new PDX1 is standard pressure).
My carry guns are a Glock 17 Gen 1 and Gen 2, a Glock 19 Gen 2, a Glock 22 Gen 4 and a S&W M&P45. These run on the new rounds better, more accurately and are more controllable with the standard pressure rounds.
FWIW I'm finding that the multiple recoil springs of the Gen 4s help the pistol with accuracy. My Gen 4 22 is just as accurate as my $3K plus Limited STI pistol. My Gen 4 22 is the most accurate Glock .40 cal pistol I've ever shot. My theory is that the gun locks up better and stays locked longer. I find this to be true with Glock 26s, 27s and 33s as well.
BTW the FBI is now going to be issued G23s instead of G22s. The 22s for them didn't make any friggin' sense to begin with but I digress.
I need to weigh the Glock 22 Gen 4 slide and a Glock 17 Gen 4 slide. There is a difference in the Gen 3 between 9mm and .40 and even .357SIG.
I would agree with what you have said Robb and will take your word on the accuracy improvement.
C4
Littlelebowski
04-19-10, 07:43
It sure is a noticeable difference when shooting a Gen3 and then a Gen4 back to back when doing any sort of rapid fire.
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