How many CZ owners here? [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

maximus83

04-12-10, 08:37

At one time I had more CZ's than now, and as noted above they make great rifles, I really liked their rimfire rifles as I owned a 452 American in .22lr and another in .17 HMR.

Currently I've been trying to simplify and consolidate my pistols a bit, trying to not have so many different calibers, platforms to learn, different mags, etc. I still like my CZ's, but the M&P is now my main carry and defense pistol. I'm down to just 3 CZ's: my old trusty 85 Combat, an SP01 Custom done by Angus, and a Kadet .22 conversion. And I will probably sell the SP01 when I can find a good home for it, it's scary accurate and would make a great comps gun, but I am not using it much. Much as I like shooting the CZ's at the range, the ones I like best are the full-size CZ's in 9mm (the 75/85/Sp01 family pistols), and these are bulky and difficult to carry concealed. For me the CZ's are awesome shooters, but have become used mostly for range and target work as I wanted to go to a more modern platform that had less parts, lighter weight, and preferably widespread adoption by the LE community in the U.S. Still, I'll probably always keep at least one CZ 75/85 family pistol, plus a .22 conversion, on hand.

svsv

04-12-10, 08:47

CZ 75BD 9mm and CZ40B .40 cal...both stolen five years ago...:mad:

clarkston_cz

04-12-10, 09:45

Have you considered a RAMI or RAMI BD for your wife?

Cazwell

04-12-10, 10:06

Hey Cazwell what model Emerson is that?

Good eye! It's a CQC-11.

Tritium

04-12-10, 11:27

Hey, Canadian with a CZ SP-01 Shadow here.

I use it for IPSC/USPSA Production Division.

I like mine but had a heck of a time getting it to feed properly. Now, it runs like a top!

Combat_Diver

04-14-10, 06:57

Just passing on an observation that I saw Sunday in Afghanistan that some Czech Repbulic soliders are still carrying vz82 pistols.

CD

PRMAN45ACP

04-14-10, 07:05

I have CZ SP01, good gun.:)

blade_68

04-18-10, 15:24

I've got 4. CZ75 from 80s CZ85 from 90s (broke right side slide release) 2 CZ83 one blued,
other SS in 380 for summer CC in SE Ga./ Fl.
CZ75 shot so much could not guess how many rounds I've fired in it.

An Undocumented Worker

04-18-10, 18:04

I've got a PCR and a 75b stainless.

The PCR has approximately 2000 rounds through it with no troubles. I love that gun.:cool:

Picked up the 75b stainless in january this year and have somewhere in the neighborhood of 700 rounds through it aswell, again no troubles.

For some reason the PCR seems more accurate than the 75b, but it's splitting hairs to distinguish the difference.

Cazwell

04-18-10, 21:04

Have you considered a RAMI or RAMI BD for your wife?

I just noticed this and realized this may have been directed at me. Yes, we have considered the RAMI. Trying to find a shop that has them so she can see how they fit and just how small they are.

It's hard for her to carry in the summer, shorts and a shirt doesn't make it easy, and it's hot here in Phoenix! As a result, she just doesn't carry in the summer, she'll put the gun under the seat or something.

She is thinking of getting that little Sig in .380, I think its the 238... We'll see.

Noodle

04-18-10, 21:07

SP-01 Tactical in a .40. Great shooter!

lethal dose

04-18-10, 22:25

I just noticed this and realized this may have been directed at me. Yes, we have considered the RAMI. Trying to find a shop that has them so she can see how they fit and just how small they are.

It's hard for her to carry in the summer, shorts and a shirt doesn't make it easy, and it's hot here in Phoenix! As a result, she just doesn't carry in the summer, she'll put the gun under the seat or something.

She is thinking of getting that little Sig in .380, I think its the 238... We'll see.
Personally, I don't prefer safetys on my carry weapons.

krytos

04-19-10, 10:39

Two CZ P-01's.

I carry a CZ P-01 daily. My wife carries hers in the winter, she finds it a little too big for summer carry.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/kenpo1979/IMG_2090.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/kenpo1979/IMG_2089.jpg

CZs have NSNs? What?

120mm

04-19-10, 13:24

CZs are the first guns I ever loved.

CZ 50, CZ 52, CZ 75, Brno 601 and my sweetheart, a CZ 452 mannlicher .22

Cazwell

04-19-10, 16:05

CZs have NSNs? What?

I can't tell if your being a smart a$$ or if you are genuinely surprised, but yes, they do.

I don't know that it means all that much really. I thought it did when I was first shopping, as the PR release of the torture test that went along with it was impressive, but I have since seen the test marginalized on some forums so I dunno.

CZs are the first guns I ever loved.

CZ 50, CZ 52, CZ 75, Brno 601 and my sweetheart, a CZ 452 mannlicher .22

I love them. The CZ 75 and 75 P-01 are the most ergonomical hand guns I have experienced.

I have a 3rd gen S&W .40 that I was carrying at the time. When I married my wife she wanted a handgun, so we started going to the range on ladies night and shooting whatever they had to rent. After lots of rounds through glocks, HK's, XD's, Barreta's, Sigs and M&P's she narrowed it down to the sig and the M&P.

She like the ergos on the M&P the best, but she liked the DA/SA with decocker of the sig. Mainly because she didn't want a manual safety, and at the time, had a little nervousness associated with glock and m&p type triggers. We both carry A-IWB too, so the hammer is comforting.

Anyhow, we saw the CZ's at a gun shop, and both handled them and thought they were significantly better than the sig in terms of ergos, and better (though more marginally) than the m&p. They fit the other criteria as well, and at the time, were much less money (we got our P-01's 350 and 400). We tracked one down and shot it. I liked it so much I bought one for her and one for me with a bunch of mags.

All I found at the time regarding reviews and anecdotal evidence was very positive.

I still love it, and have about 1000 rounds through mine, and about 700 through hers. No problems whatsoever.

Since I bought them though, I have come across more negative info regarding their durability and reliability. The overall consensus on the net is positive, but once in a while I feel like maybe I should have gone with a more "known quantity" like the Sig or M&P for our primary carry guns. I do love shooting the CZ's though, and I think I'll put one of them through the 2000 round challenge and see how it does.

LMT42

04-19-10, 20:31

Since I bought them though, I have come across more negative info regarding their durability and reliability. The overall consensus on the net is positive, but once in a while I feel like maybe I should have gone with a more "known quantity" like the Sig or M&P for our primary carry guns. I do love shooting the CZ's though, and I think I'll put one of them through the 2000 round challenge and see how it does.

As a CZ owner, I'm curious what negative things you've heard/read about CZs. Also, were the negatives from reputable sources. I don't want to trust my life to a "sub par" firearm. That being said, in all my research prior to purchasing my pistol, I saw nothing but positive reviews. I know the .40 cal Rami had a ton of problems when first introduced, but I couldn't find any negative comments about their other offerings.

I don't want to sound like a guy that's ticked off because I own one. However, in all fairness, there's no shortage of Glocks that have blown up and they're considered God's gift in handguns. I just want to make sure that all manufacturers are given the same scrutiny and or leeway.

ChicagoTex

04-19-10, 21:00

However, in all fairness, there's no shortage of Glocks that have blown up and they're considered God's gift in handguns.

1. 9mm Glocks are considered God's gift to handguns. Other calibers have decidedly less warm reception.
2. The vast majority of Glocks blown up, 9mm or otherwise, were blown up due to idiots reloading cases they ought not to have reloaded. And no, it's not a Glock design deficiency that they aren't gentle on brass.

Now that we've returned to the realm of sanity, there are a couple MAJOR failings with CZs.

1. The barrel (and with it, the slide) cams violently against the slide stop/release pin - this is easily the most common failure point of the CZ design and when it fails it bricks the entire gun. CZ has NEVER done a damn thing to alleviate the force exerted on this pin since the original design in 1975. This fundamental weakness in the design is most evident in the CZ 85 models.

2. CZ machining is rough. It is, in fact, so rough that CZ has machines in their facilities that rack their pistols hundreds of times prior to finishing to wear in all the rough edges and burrs. While this is a generally effective method of attaining reliability, it's also a strong indicator of how sloppy the basic machining is.

It is for these two reasons that I would never consider using a CZ for anything but a range toy.

LMT42

04-19-10, 21:18

1. The barrel (and with it, the slide) cams violently against the slide stop/release pin - this is easily the most common failure point of the CZ design and when it fails it bricks the entire gun. CZ has NEVER done a damn thing to alleviate the force exerted on this pin since the original design in 1975. This fundamental weakness in the design is most evident in the CZ 85 models.

2. CZ machining is rough. It is, in fact, so rough that CZ has machines in their facilities that rack their pistols hundreds of times prior to finishing to wear in all the rough edges and burrs. While this is a generally effective method of attaining reliability, it's also a strong indicator of how sloppy the basic machining is.

It is for these two reasons that I would never consider using a CZ for anything but a range toy.

Fair enough. I don't really see a problem with item #2 once the pistol is broken in. Can item #1 be corrected with a stonger slide stop? If so, is there an after market slide stop you'd recommend?

ChicagoTex

04-19-10, 21:23

Can item #1 be corrected with a stonger slide stop?

Nope, to be stronger it'd need to be bigger. To be bigger, CZ would actually have to update their ancient design...

Cazwell

04-19-10, 22:12

Fair enough. I don't really see a problem with item #2 once the pistol is broken in. Can item #1 be corrected with a stonger slide stop? If so, is there an after market slide stop you'd recommend?

The slide stop mentioned by chicagotex is the number one weak point that I have heard mentioned.

There was a serious debate about this issue, I think it was over on thehighroad. The thread was many, many pages in length, and while others weighed in, it ended up being mostly between two guys with far more knowledge regarding mechanical engineering than I have. One felt the slide stop was in fact a significant weak point to the design the rendered the CZ's a non-contender for duty or SD use , the other (a mechanical engineer by trade) did not see it as such, and felt that the concern was based more on a few anecdotal cases that have been made into a bigger issue than they are.

It was difficult for me to glean from the argument who was correct (as the math/formula's of shearing forces, loads etc is not within my profession and training) so here is what I decided;

Slide stops are cheap and take 3 seconds to switch out. CZ usually will just mail you some. I have a bunch of them. I have one in the gun for range and practice (we'll see how far it gets - CZ says it's rated to 15k) and I have one I put in when I leave the range... my "carry slide stop" if you will. Problem solved.

The other part that is said to fail on the CZ's are trigger return springs. I don't know how often and I hear much less about this issue. Plus, there doesn't seem to be much of an issue on the CZ forum about it.

It has bummed me out a bit though. I was so stoked on the CZ's when I first discovered them and brought them home. They are accurate and super ergonomical. They carry well, point well and so on. However, it nags at me that they may not be as reliable as a primary carry should be, and it is even more annoying that the entire issue of firearm reliability is a touch subjective being largely based on anecdotal evidence anyways.

rdc0000

04-19-10, 22:17

CZ 75BD owner here.

ChicagoTex

04-19-10, 22:24

I have one I put in when I leave the range... my "carry slide stop" if you will. Problem solved.

A perfectly acceptable solution. Although a slide stop too new could still be a tad rough and inhibit cycling. I would think a slide stop with at least a thousand rounds through it would be ideal.

it nags at me that they may not be as reliable as a primary carry should be

I'm glad you made this acknowledgement, as it's definetely in line with my attitudes. Even though you found a workaround for the problem - you recognize that there shouldn't be anything you have to work around in the first place.

Whether or not it's worth the trouble is up to each individual user.

Cazwell

04-19-10, 22:51

A perfectly acceptable solution. Although a slide stop too new could still be a tad rough and inhibit cycling. I would think a slide stop with at least a thousand rounds through it would be ideal.

I agree, I don't want a brand new one in there either. Each "carry slide stop" has about 150 rounds on it. I was shooting for 500.

I'm glad you made this acknowledgement, as it's definetely in line with my attitudes. Even though you found a workaround for the problem - you recognize that there shouldn't be anything you have to work around in the first place.

Whether or not it's worth the trouble is up to each individual user.

I want good gear and good training. Never been much of a fanboy or a loyalist to a degree that I shunned other sources.

I love my CZ.... I pick up other guns at the shop all the time and think pffft it doesn't feel or point like my CZ. It is accurate and fun to shoot. But, the slide riding in the frame can be tricky to rack with some malf. drills with gloves or dirty, sweaty hands. And then there is the slide stop issue. Many people say it's a non-issue and they have x thousands of rounds with no problem. But, it has come up enough that I decide to be cautious and swap out slide stops for now.

I am happy with that fix, but must admit I do keep an eye open for possible replacement candidates.

A buddy recently told me to check out the HK p30, swearing the ergos would equal the CZ, same DA/SA with decocker, accurate and..... more reliable over the long hall. It better be, it's twice the cost!

ChicagoTex

04-19-10, 23:54

A buddy recently told me to check out the HK p30, swearing the ergos would equal the CZ, same DA/SA with decocker, accurate and..... more reliable over the long hall. It better be, it's twice the cost!

The P30 is epic, Id've bought one last year if my financial situation was any better.

bm176

05-26-10, 05:24

my po7
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/221.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/268.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/294.jpg

Magic_Salad0892

05-26-10, 05:58

If I ever got the chance, I'd love to own a never been fired CZ-75B and outfit it with a suppressor, and a CTC LG-475.

ranburr

05-26-10, 10:40

The CZ 75 is as relaible as any pistol made. The slide stop issue was from two different issues and has been taken care of long ago. If you have a pistol eating slide stops, the frame holes are out of line or your pistol is undersprung. I have seen one that did this. Once Wolff springs were used, no more issues. Anyone that can't keep a CZ running needs to look no further than a mirror for the problem.

mattjmcd

05-26-10, 10:54

I've had a P-01 and a -75B. Both were paragons of accuracy in my hands, but the -75B was not a paragon of reliability.:( IMO the P-01 has just about the best ergos of any metal handgun out there, including the 1911.

Noodle

05-26-10, 10:59

CZ 75 SP-01 tactical in 40 S&W. Great shooter, very accurate.

tracker722

05-26-10, 19:39

*******************

Magic_Salad0892

05-27-10, 03:33

I'd actually rather have a CZ-75B than a 1911.

Better gun. In my humble (please don't smite me John Browning) opinion.

dirksterg30

05-27-10, 08:00

I used to own a P-01 and my wife had a PCR. Great guns for concealed carry with excellent ergonomics, although the DA triggers were a little heavy. I actually shot the P-01 better than my Springfield 1911. Both the P-01 and PCR were reliable with anything but Blazer Aluminum (extraction issues). We ended up selling them to get an M&P9 and a 9c, as we both shoot the striker-fired DA triggers better, and the M&P has a much larger presence in the US for maintenance, spare parts, holsters etc.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dirksterg30/CZs/P-01and1911.jpg

beltjones

05-27-10, 08:40

I have a polished stainless 75B. I converted it to SA, replaced the hammer with a competition hammer, added F/O sights, and replaced the stock grips with a german walnut target grip.

I think a lot of the criticisms of the CZ are very fair. I'll add that they're a little tricky to work on, but it's doable. If I have one complaint, it's that parts are overly expensive. There is no reason a new sear should be $40. That's ridiculous. Also, I called to inquire about a new polished stainless slide stop, and was basically laughed at. Not in a rude way, but just in a "we don't stock polished stainless parts, and never will" way. It was annoying to say the least.

Avenger29

05-27-10, 11:39

I've got a 75 Compact in 9mm, nickle plated.

And a CZ-452 .22 rifle.

The rifle is by far one of my favorite .22s. I'm not nearly as impressed with the 75Compact. Especially since the grip screw on the left side was crossthreaded into the frame at the factory and promptly broke off first time I went to remove the grips.

Bit of an update for me...

I have sold the CZ 75 (and I throughly disclosed the issue of the grip screw and lowered the price accordingly).

I think CZs were a good deal when they were cheaper. Nowadays, not so much. I had issues with both the rifle and pistol I brought (different production runs from different years). I am pleased that I was able to fix the issue to satisfaction in the 452, but was not pleased that the fix hurt the looks of the pistol and am glad that it is gone.

The small grasping area on the slide is also a shortcoming of the CZ pistols.

Overall, I had to ask myself why I was using a 2.4lb pistol for CCW when a S&W M&P matched the comfortable recoil level at less weight and held more rounds, and fit my hands just as well if not better.

I will not be purchasing another CZ product. I made the mistake of listening to narrowminded brand-loyal fans who absolutely will not admit issues and shortcomings.

Magic_Salad0892

05-27-10, 17:47

CCW pistol, bad.

Service pistol, good.

That's how I envision it, at least.

Redhat

05-27-10, 17:47

Bit of an update for me...

I have sold the CZ 75 (and I throughly disclosed the issue of the grip screw and lowered the price accordingly).

I think CZs were a good deal when they were cheaper. Nowadays, not so much. I had issues with both the rifle and pistol I brought (different production runs from different years). I am pleased that I was able to fix the issue to satisfaction in the 452, but was not pleased that the fix hurt the looks of the pistol and am glad that it is gone.

The small grasping area on the slide is also a shortcoming of the CZ pistols.

Overall, I had to ask myself why I was using a 2.4lb pistol for CCW when a S&W M&P matched the comfortable recoil level at less weight and held more rounds, and fit my hands just as well if not better.

I will not be purchasing another CZ product. I made the mistake of listening to narrowminded brand-loyal fans who absolutely will not admit issues and shortcomings.

Is the Smith as accurate?

Avenger29

05-27-10, 20:32

Is the Smith as accurate?

Hell if I know, I can't shoot that well with a handgun in the first place, but I actually seem to be shooting a bit better with the S&W. I never benched the CZ.

Redhat

05-27-10, 21:49

Hell if I know, I can't shoot that well with a handgun in the first place, but I actually seem to be shooting a bit better with the S&W. I never benched the CZ.

Thanks...I'd heard that the M&Ps have pretty good accuracy. I've only put about 10 rds through a M&P .45 a while back.

My CZ is the most accurate autoloader I have.

TOrrock

05-27-10, 22:06

I get the feeling we got hit and run by clarkston_cz ..........

Cazwell

07-25-10, 16:00

The small grasping area on the slide is also a shortcoming of the CZ pistols.

This comes up from time to time as an issue. Why do you see it as a shortcoming?

The CZ 75 is as relaible as any pistol made. The slide stop issue was from two different issues and has been taken care of long ago. If you have a pistol eating slide stops, the frame holes are out of line or your pistol is undersprung. I have seen one that did this. Once Wolff springs were used, no more issues. Anyone that can't keep a CZ running needs to look no further than a mirror for the problem.

This is the only forum I have been on that doesn't generally sing praises of the CZ 75 / P-O1 / PCR.... Typically most feel that they are highly reliable, ergonomically perfect, accurate pistol. When I requested spare slide stops from CZ-USA I chatted with the fellow on the phone about the potential issue. He said exactly what you did; It rarely ever is an issue, and the few times it has been, the frame holes were out of spec. Doesn't seem to be an issue on the cz forum either.

I would love see on of those high round count tests done on the P-01

ChicagoTex

07-25-10, 17:38

This comes up from time to time as an issue. Why do you see it as a shortcoming?

Because it makes the slide harder to rack, especially while under pressure, sweaty/bloody, or using gloves. Within reason, more surface area to rack is ALWAYS a plus.

This is the only forum I have been on that doesn't generally sing praises of the CZ 75 / P-O1 / PCR.... Typically most feel that they are highly reliable, ergonomically perfect, accurate pistol.

This is also one of a very few forums on the internet filled with people who put staggering amounts of rounds through their guns, many of whom do so under combat conditions. Yes, there are plenty of people posting on other forums talking about how awesome their CZ 75 that they've put a whopping 1000 rounds slow fire through has been, this isn't them.

When they don't break, CZs are generally reliable and acceptably accurate. Ergonomic perfection is highly debateable, I, for example, find any Glock (one of the most bitched about guns ergonomics-wise) to be a more appropriate ergonomic fit than the CZ75 .40S&W I owned that chewed the crap out of the web of my hand with it's shitty psuedo-beavertail.

When I requested spare slide stops from CZ-USA I chatted with the fellow on the phone about the potential issue. He said exactly what you did; It rarely ever is an issue, and the few times it has been, the frame holes were out of spec. Doesn't seem to be an issue on the cz forum either.
Well, if someone who works for the company and a forum filled with it's fan boys said it isn't a problem... it must be so :rolleyes:

The best thing CZ had going is they used to be a bargain when you could get a 75 for $350, now that they dance with Glocks, M&Ps, Beretta 92s, and other combat pistol staples the shortcomings stack up. It is one of the most fragile designs out there in modern combat autoloaders because of the stress placed on the slide stop pin, it is probably the most poorly machined gun in it's price bracket (CZ autoloader manufacturing is, in fact, so sloppy they have machines to manually rack the slides on their guns hundreds of times before shipping to get all the burrs that'd impair feeding off).

The only thing that saves CZ pistols from being a complete joke in today's market is they are still fairly diligent about their QC in that most of the guns they sell work properly out of the box, but they'll never be the cat's ass to serious users and they no longer make a compelling case for value.

calvin118

07-25-10, 17:44

Thanks...I'd heard that the M&Ps have pretty good accuracy. I've only put about 10 rds through a M&P .45 a while back.

My CZ is the most accurate autoloader I have.

In Todd's test and other places, M&P's are capable of 1.5-2" groups at 25 yards off a bench. I've heard of CZ's shooting around 2.5-3" groups at the same distance from several sources.

Cazwell

07-25-10, 19:07

Because it makes the slide harder to rack, especially while under pressure, sweaty/bloody, or using gloves. Within reason, more surface area to rack is ALWAYS a plus.

That certainly makes sense, and I have noticed it during classes once hand fatigue started setting in, sweaty etc. It wasn't a real big deal, but it did require a little extra concentration. I was just curious if there was any other related issue (design wise etc) that I was unaware of.

This is also one of a very few forums on the internet filled with people who put staggering amounts of rounds through their guns, many of whom do so under combat conditions. Yes, there are plenty of people posting on other forums talking about how awesome their CZ 75 that they've put a whopping 1000 rounds slow fire through has been, this isn't them.

Fair enough. Everyone has their opinion though and things are presented as objective that are often still pretty subjective, even amongst professionals. I post on this forum because of the reputation you mentioned, but that doesn't mean I know who is who... Due diligence is all :)

Well, if someone who works for the company and a forum filled with it's fan boys said it isn't a problem... it must be so :rolleyes:

Many CZ owners experiencing problems go to CZ forums for help (same with glocktalk etc), so I do think you can see trends as to what issues are consistent or common when going to a dedicated forum like that. The fact that I'm here (and on multiple other forums) should indicate that I'm not just taking "fanboys" word for it....

Anyhow, thanks for your thoughts and input.

As much as I personally enjoy the ergos of the CZ I have been thinking of making a change. I want to consolidate to a platform both my wife and I can use, and she wants to carry something much smaller. We looked at the M&P line, but she would like something with and option even smaller than the 9c.

We'll see

An Undocumented Worker

07-25-10, 19:10

1. 9mm Glocks are considered God's gift to handguns. Other calibers have decidedly less warm reception.
2. The vast majority of Glocks blown up, 9mm or otherwise, were blown up due to idiots reloading cases they ought not to have reloaded. And no, it's not a Glock design deficiency that they aren't gentle on brass.

Now that we've returned to the realm of sanity, there are a couple MAJOR failings with CZs.

1. The barrel (and with it, the slide) cams violently against the slide stop/release pin - this is easily the most common failure point of the CZ design and when it fails it bricks the entire gun. CZ has NEVER done a damn thing to alleviate the force exerted on this pin since the original design in 1975. This fundamental weakness in the design is most evident in the CZ 85 models.

2. CZ machining is rough. It is, in fact, so rough that CZ has machines in their facilities that rack their pistols hundreds of times prior to finishing to wear in all the rough edges and burrs. While this is a generally effective method of attaining reliability, it's also a strong indicator of how sloppy the basic machining is.

It is for these two reasons that I would never consider using a CZ for anything but a range toy.

I have looked into this issue being a CZ owner and all, and from what I can tell the problem of broken slidestops are isolated only to a few Lemons in that the hole for the slidestop may not have been drilled perfectly square on a gun that breaks the slide stop.

There was at least one person with such a lemon that had broken multiple slide stops and contacted CZ about it. They ended up replacing the firearm for the person and he no longer had trouble with broken slidestops.

Looks like this answer has already been addressed, sorry.

Cazwell

07-25-10, 19:57

Looks like this answer has already been addressed, sorry.

No biggie, more anecdotal evidence lends credibility to the idea.

ChicagoTex

07-25-10, 21:32

Remember, too, that because of their "budget" status, CZs have historically been a common gun for low round count (aka low income) shooters. While there's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't make for significant reliability testing. There is one exception to this rule, and that is that CZs do do a lot of stock pistol competition (particularly in Europe), but it's worth remembering that these pistols tend to be significantly modified and while they have a high round diet, they're generally soft-shooting competition loads, rather than higher pressure duty loads.

fn1889m

07-26-10, 00:49

I have a CZ75b. It is my second CZ. My other semi-autos are several 1911s, a Walther, and 3 Browning HPs. Admittedly dated, but not junk. With those choices, the CZ is my bedside pistol. It has never jammed or malfunctioned. It feeds everything. A sample of 1, but it is still 100%.

All machines have weaknesses. I have restaked more plunger tubes on 1911s that I can remember. At this point, I just assume they are loose on a new 1911. And every BHP needs the mag. safety removed. My Walter PP jams. The Berretta has its own failings. And these are good pistols. Some people swear by Taurus, Rock Island .45s, or Makarovs. People carry far worse than CZ75b's. As for low round count, I don't think so. It is a well tested handgun design that has been around for 35 years.

My criticisms of the CZ75b are the firing pin safety and the .40 cal reissue. Like the BHP, the .40 version for the CZ was not really an improvement. The pistol was designed for 9mm, and is reliable in that caliber. The CZ is not perfect, but the CZ75b is an upper tier 9mm, despite its minor issues, in at least the same class as the Beretta, Sig and Browning. It has a good, earned reputation. But I don't think I would get one in .40.

ChicagoTex

07-26-10, 02:38

but the CZ75b is an upper tier 9mm, despite its minor issues, in at least the same class as the Beretta, Sig and Browning.

I disagree, but then, I also view the BHP as entirely unacceptable out of the box for anything more than range use, and not just because of the magazine disconnect.

Mufasa

07-26-10, 06:08

CZ SP01 Shadow here, production division IPSC gun. One of the best purchases I've made.

Iraqgunz

07-26-10, 06:15

The CZ75 was my first handgun. I bought it at Rhein-Main Airbase in 1989 for 275.00 new. It was an original from Czechoslovakia w/o import markings. It was an excellent and reliable pistol and I wish I had it back.

John_Wayne777

07-26-10, 07:52

The Berretta has its own failings. And these are good pistols. Some people swear by Taurus, Rock Island .45s, or Makarovs. People carry far worse than CZ75b's. As for low round count, I don't think so. It is a well tested handgun design that has been around for 35 years.

Objective reality time:

1. What does "well tested handgun design" mean?
2. Please describe the average round count put through the average CZ-75/clone in military service around the world. I'd even take it from a specific military you have information on.
3. Lots of people swear by lots of stuff that sucks. What people swear by means precisely beans when it comes to objective truth.

The CZ is not perfect, but the CZ75b is an upper tier 9mm, despite its minor issues, in at least the same class as the Beretta, Sig and Browning.

Speaking of the Browning...describe, please, the average service life of a Browning in military service...the round count it can absorb, maintenance issues, etc.

It has a good, earned reputation.

It has a reputation. How much of that reputation is "earned" is open for debate. Take, for instance, CZ's claim about passing a NATO certification...a claim that no other firearms manufacturer advertises. This, as they say, would be a great big warning sign about the level of marketing that goes into that whole "reputation" thing.

The simple, ugly truth is this:

CZs are the world's low-bid handgun. Way back when they were invented they had significant advantages over other options on the market, especially in a world awash in Warsaw Pact weapons like the Makarov and Tokarev. In comparison to those weapons, the CZ-75 is a great leap forward...I mean, doublestack magazines! Woo-hoo! People dramatically overestimate the amount of use the guns get in foreign militaries. On the whole, the US military is probably the most intensive user of handguns of any military force on the planet...and that's still not a lot. There are lots of people in the US military whose entire experience with a handgun is a fairly brief qual with an M9, and that's it.

It's absolutely not going to be any better in foreign military forces.

In the modern world that is dominated by weapons like the Glock the CZ family is simply outclassed in terms of durability and reliability over large round counts...large round counts that most shooters will never see because they don't shoot that much. Lots of guys claim to dump copious numbers of rounds downrange every year, but most of those claims are bogus.

We have an excellent read on the performance of Berettas, Sigs, Glocks, and some other weapons because they are used fairly heavily by a lot of agencies where information is relatively easy to access. Someone (Except Templar because he might actually know) please tell me the most common armorer-level issues experienced within the Turkish military with their standard issue sidearms.

....anyone? Bueller?

Let's face it, folks:

All the majority of people know about CZ's is that eons ago Jeff Cooper said some nice things about them and that you can see them being used in some sub-Saharan civil conflict from time to time.

...just like most people's knowledge of the 1911 is based on old wives tales they heard from the military or from gunstores.

Instead of betting on the "reputation" of a sidearm, it would be more productive to focus on things that can be readily quantified...like the absolute dearth of CZ use among the world's most elite counter-terrorism forces, (If I remember correctly, even the Czech CT forces use Glocks), no significant adoption or contracts with law enforcement agencies within the United States or most of the other first world nations, etc.

Does this mean that every CZ ever made is a hand grenade that's just waiting to blow up? No. It doesn't mean that there aren't any people who are happy with their personally owned CZ's....but there are also people who are perfectly happy with their Taurus handguns and Olympic AR's. Someone's personal satisfaction with X doesn't necessarily translate into a guarantee of reliable service for the prospective buyer.

Are they cool? At the right price, certainly. Are they fun to shoot? I guess so.

...are they provably as reliable and durable in aggregate as 9mm Glocks are?

Absolutely not. Like them for what they are...but don't oversell what they are to yourself or to others.

Entropy

07-26-10, 08:02

Well put JW.

I've owned 5 CZs over the years and have sold them all off due to reliability issues or parts breaking prematurely. In a free market with so many superior pistol options, I don't see why anyone would buy a CZ now days unless they are uninformed.

Zed is not your friend:
http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218

TiroFijo

07-26-10, 08:55

The CZ 75 is a great design, but suffers from QC problems (inconsistent/not durable recoil, magazine and extractor springs, not durable slide stop, sometimes rough machining, rough/hard triggers etc.). Even now I think the factory competition repair kit (for high volume shooters) includes something like SIX slide stops...

The quality of the older ones (pre-95?) is generally better, the new ones look/feel cheaper.

When everything is OK, the pistols are very accurate, durable, and reliable. They are heavy (all steel and beefy), but their grip size and shape is great. Since they are classics, all steel and nice looking, they tend to develop a sentimental attachment somewhat out of proportion from some owners, or from the lucky ones who don't have any problems... just like some other "high maintenance" pistols.

They are great pistols if you manage to solve the little problems and maintain them well, but if you expect consistent quality out of the box and little maintenance problems the Glocks are a much metter bet.

Cazwell

07-26-10, 11:18

This may not be the thread for it, but since I revived the thread and the TS disappeared, I suppose it will work.

What would everyone’s thought be as to replacement pistols? Here is what I would like to do;

1.) Keep with 9mm (I am comfortable with it as a defensive round given the quality of ammo, my wife shoots it better that .40 and .45, follow up shots and round capacity and cost to practice is more important than an ever so slightly bigger hole. Plus I have thousands of rounds of 9mm already.)
2.) Adopt a platform that we can consolidate to (i.e. compact, subcompact models) same manual of arms etc.
3.) High quality, durable, reliable, accurate etc….

My wife and I really like the M&P line. We both shoot it well, and find it to be pretty ergonomics etc. However, she isn’t real big, and she won’t carry consistently unless she has an ultra concealable weapon (think Khar pm9 size range). M&P9c seems to be a bit too wide.

A friend of mine suggested a few weeks ago that we consider the Walther line; Walther p99 / Walther p99c / Walther pps.

I haven’t ever heard anything negative about them… but I haven’t shot one. I’ll have to try and rent one at the local range.

TOrrock

07-26-10, 11:20

As others have stated very well, the CZ got it's reputation kicked off by Col. Jeff Cooper in the 1980's. He had been exposed to them in southern Africa where they were very popular among civilians and military personnel. To paraphrase the Colonel, if you are going to use a 9mm, get either a Browning P-35 or a CZ-75.

The the amount of training and shooting that a handgun is expected to handle has expanded dramatically in the last 30 years. People just didn't use to shoot the same volume of rounds per year that they do now. Pistols that were designed 30 or 40 (or 75) years ago have shorter life expectancies, overall, than more modern designs.

I've had a couple conversations with Larry Vickers about the CZ-75. He's in agreement....the ones made back in the 80's under socialist control were actually better made than the current commercial guns. The fit and finish might have been sub par compared to current iterations, but the actual durability and mechanical aspects were better.

Larry has seen a lot of handguns used in service all over the world.

JW777 is correct, even the Czech counter terrorist teams use Glock 17's and 19's.

I personally really like the CZ's made in the 80's. They were definitely on the short list of cool guy gear in my formative years. I remember when a CZ-75 would cost an American shooter $700-$800, and that's in 1987 dollars.

There were three ways to get one.....

1) Join the military, get stationed in Germany, and buy one from the Rod and Gun club for $300.00. Bring it back when you rotate home.

2) Get your hands on one and import it through Canada via Pragotrade (or something like that), which would double the cost of the pistol.

3) Be lucky enough to score one of the very few imported by Bauska Imports in Kalispell, MT.

I got a hold of my first one in 1989, it was a bring back from Germany. I got it for what the guy paid for it, shot the snot out of it, liked it, but sold it when someone offered me $800.00 for it. That was about a month before the fall of the Berlin Wall.

My current CZ-75 is one of the Bauska Arms imports and was made in 1986. It is a little rough inside where it doesn't matter, but it's a great shooter.

So....what's the point of this ramble?

The point is, current CZ's aren't what they used to be, which is sad. The reputation of the gun is based on one very influential man's opinion (and we are greatly diminished with Col. Cooper's passing) thirty years ago, when more modern designs did not exist, or were just starting to be introduced.

I don't consider them to be a serious contender in the modern market.

ChicagoTex

07-26-10, 14:00

This may not be the thread for it, but since I revived the thread and the TS disappeared, I suppose it will work.

Won't work nearly as well as you starting a new thread, trust me, unless you just want only the opinion of the very few of us watching this zombie thread, just start a new one on that subject.

fn1889m

07-26-10, 14:16

John Wayne said: "Speaking of the Browning...describe, please, the average service life of a Browning in military service...the round count it can absorb, maintenance issues, etc. "

LOL, Pilgrim. I can't do that, but Browning HPs/Inglis made in WWII are still in use. Calm down. Don't take the internet that seriously.

I think you stepped past my point - all firearms have mechanical problems, whether design or by wear, including CZs. The CZ is better than most in the same category - 9mm pistols. Not the best, but pretty good to go by most standards. I don't want to get into a debate between Glock fanboys and CZ fanboys. I just think CZ is a pretty good pistol. There are others.

ChicagoTex

07-26-10, 14:19

but Browning HPs/Inglis made in WWII are still in use.

So are Tokarevs, and even a few Nambus. What's your point?

GermanSynergy

07-26-10, 14:47

I bought a 1993 vintage CZ 75 back in the autumn of 1999 while stationed in Texas- it even came with four pre ban 15 rd mags.

Bought it from a SSG in my unit for $350, and it had about 400 rounds thru it.

Still have it, but it hasn't been fired in years...

Dano5326

07-26-10, 14:47

I haven't shot the latest induration of the CZ75 series.. but I am certainly partial to the "pre-B" ones. My understanding is the latest ones are sized differently, different mags, holster, etc.

I have an early 1980's one that rides heinies and a mod'd EEA witness enlarged safety. Smooth curvy and rides nice.

For the era they were remarkable. In a land of polymer striker fired(single trigger pull to learn) railed pistols, hard sell. Their alum framed rail version might be worth a try.

As with the older gen of pistols, parts replacement matrix is key. Recoil & extractor spring on these & takedown pin.

John_Wayne777

07-26-10, 15:15

LOL, Pilgrim. I can't do that

...that's my point. Folks like to mention that a bunch of people use the Browning or the CZ...but precious few details exist about how they are being used, how they are being maintained, and what exactly it is like to live with them as a sidearm under demanding conditions. That's the kind of information that is predictive of how a prospective purchase is likely to go.

That information is pretty readily accessible on guns like the Beretta M9/92, the Sig P226, the Glock 17, etc.

People often mention that the US military used the 1911 for a very long time too. They do not seem to realize that the military as a whole placed little emphasis on handguns, that handgun programs were very low priority when it came to spending money, and that when handguns were required the military bought a bunch of different ones on an as needed basis. Part of the impetus behind the M9 program was to deal with the dozen or so different handguns then being issued in one capacity or another to various branches and units within the DOD.

Handguns just aren't terribly important pieces of kit. In the States we're more nuts about handguns than any other place on earth, and even our emphasis is pretty minimal.

The P35 during its day was an improvement over what was on the market at the time. That's why they were purchased initially. They are still used not because they are still awesome...they are still used because buying new ones costs a lot of money. The P35 is still the standard sidearm of the UK forces, IIRC...but their elite counter-terrorism units, which shoot a lot more pistol than everybody else, uses the P226.

Don't take the internet that seriously.

M4Carbine.net is supposed to exist to promote good information. We generally take that pretty seriously.

I think you stepped past my point - all firearms have mechanical problems, whether design or by wear, including CZs.

Yes, there is no such thing as the perfect handgun that does not require maintenance or that has zero chance of malfunctioning. That does not mean, however, that all the options on the market are equal...because they are not.

The CZ is better than most in the same category - 9mm pistols.

So let's consider the other weapons that are more or less in the same category of a double-stack, DA semi-auto pistol:

Sig P226
Beretta 92
S&W 5906
H&K USP

Is the CZ better than those? Of course not. Better than a bad Taurus copy of a Beretta? Sure. Better than a Korean attempt to clone a Sig? Probably.

...but that's like being the tallest midget in the room.

Now if we expand the above list to include other 9mm pistols like the Glock it gets even more difficult to argue that the CZ is their equal.

I don't want to get into a debate between Glock fanboys and CZ fanboys.

I don't like Glocks. Personally I find that they suck out loud when I try to use them...but by any objective standard the 9mm guns are durable, reliable, and the Glock 17 has literally changed the firearms world. I could rail on them all day because they don't fit me very well, but that doesn't change the objective reality about them. The simple truth is that consumers, police officers, and military people shoot a lot more today than they used to way back when. Standards are higher now. Just about anything will work if you don't intend to use it much...but that's not exactly what most are looking for in a handgun.

fn1889m

07-26-10, 15:17

So are Tokarevs, and even a few Nambus. What's your point?

It was Mr. Wayne's point - the average service life of a Browning in military service - England, Belgium, and Canada in this case, is quite long. I doubt that we will see 65 year old Glocks in use. But maybe.

My point was that the good points of one model don't make the other brand worse. That Glocks are good does not make CZs or BHPs bad 9mms. There are a lot of good pistols out there, just like there are a lot of good trucks, rifles and dogs. I miss my Shepard. That is not a slam on labs. Personally, I would rather have a BHP or CZ than a Beretta. But I know the pistol, and am comfortable with it.

Bubba FAL

07-26-10, 16:02

I have a CZ70 in .32ACP - nice little gun til it went TU on me one day. Slide did not cycle after firing a round & would not move more than .25" before locking up solid. Tried everything to get the damned thing apart, but no luck. It's a box o' parts now.

Also own an Italian copy of the CZ75. It doesn't share the safety design of the CZ, with a decocking safety lever on the slide, so it's a traditional DA/SA 9mm design. Workmanship is superior to the Czech models I've seen over the years. Ergos are nearly perfect for me. Nice shooter, but it stays in the safe while the M&Ps get the daily duty.

AJD

07-26-10, 22:51

I own a CZ-75B and enjoy it. It feels great in the hand and in my experience shoots really well. Biggest gripe would be they are rough and have terrible triggers. Given there price range I think there are a lot of better choices.

This is the only forum I've ever seen that actually has a lot of people that speak out against it. But I've also noticed that most here all tend to subscribe to the same philosophy most likely based on what several experts have said or based on what Larry Vickers uses or something like that. Which is good.

HKP30, M&P, Aimpoint and Ultimak, etc. etc. being good. CZ is bad "Zed is not your friend" so therefore...CZ is bad.

For the average gun owner the CZ75 is probably fine. My income goes towards bills, retirement and my family and not putting 100,000 rounds through a pistol in one year. It would be nice to have that luxury though.

John_Wayne777

07-27-10, 08:26

For the average gun owner the CZ75 is probably fine. My income goes towards bills, retirement and my family and not putting 100,000 rounds through a pistol in one year. It would be nice to have that luxury though.

...so you can spend your limited resources on a pistol that's iffy in just a few thousand rounds, or you can spend roughly the same money...perhaps a few bucks more...and buy one that is capable of handling far more than you will ever throw at it and that has a proven track record of working in a critical situation.

Doesn't seem like a hard decision to me.

I'm mystified by this idea that you only need a durable, reliable, low maintenance firearm if you're a guy who dumps copious amounts of ammo downrange every year. Those guys generally pay lots of attention to their firearms and their stuff works. The people who fire a very limited number of rounds every year are generally the ones who find themselves mystified when they manage to make it to a training course or the range and all of a sudden their blaster ceases to function.

They stare at their broken gun like a calf at a new fence and state "That's never happened before!"

Imagine that. Who could have predicted that their "good enough" gun was only going to be "good enough" until it wasn't?

The fewer rounds you fire every year...the less intensively you use a weapon that you actually intend to rely on if you need to shoot somebody...the more critical it becomes that you buy one that just works no matter what. There is a REASON why people who have the most knowledge and experience tell people that if they treat a handgun like a lawnmower that the finicky and maintenance intensive options on the market are a bad idea.

Cazwell

07-27-10, 10:01

or you can spend roughly the same money...perhaps a few bucks more...and buy one that is capable of handling far more than you will ever throw at it and that has a proven track record of working in a critical situation.

Your short list?

Business_Casual

07-27-10, 10:14

I'm guessing he will say HK P30, M&P 9 and Glock 9mm.

B_C

John_Wayne777

07-27-10, 11:12

Good guess.

Cazwell

07-27-10, 19:30

I'm guessing he will say HK P30, M&P 9 and Glock 9mm.

B_C

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=52771

?

John_Wayne777

07-27-10, 19:43

Read the thread.

Cazwell

07-27-10, 20:43

Read the thread.

I'm working through it. Just seemed like a host of issues not to dissimilar from other pistols that need lots of attention.

Trying to get my head around what makes some problems acceptable (FTF/FTE/trigger reset issues etc) in one weapon, but not another.

Not being cheeky either, by the way.

superr.stu

07-27-10, 20:57

For the average gun owner the CZ75 is probably fine. My income goes towards bills, retirement and my family and not putting 100,000 rounds through a pistol in one year. It would be nice to have that luxury though.

I consider myself a average gun guy, i have a CZ75 even...it sits in a case. My M&P 9 is the one I keep bedside because I KNOW that I can trust me and my wife's lives with it. I'm also on a limited income I quit eating out lunch at work. That affords me roughly 200 rounds per week to help me make sure that between me and the man i hope never comes through my backdoor at 1am, I'm the one that can come out on top.

When it comes to responsibly owning a defensive handgun probably fine shouldn't even be in your dictionary.

TOrrock

07-27-10, 21:01

When it comes to responsibly owning a defensive handgun probably fine shouldn't even be in your dictionary.

That is worth repeating. I'm also stealing it for my signature line.

Welcome to the forum.

Business_Casual

07-27-10, 21:36

I'm working through it. Just seemed like a host of issues not to dissimilar from other pistols that need lots of attention.

Trying to get my head around what makes some problems acceptable (FTF/FTE/trigger reset issues etc) in one weapon, but not another.

Not being cheeky either, by the way.

It's a fair question - but one that ignores the M&P 9FS was launched about 3 years ago, not three decades ago. One would also do well to read the endurance test the M&P experienced at Pistol Training.com.

B_C

Cazwell

07-27-10, 22:11

It's a fair question - but one that ignores the M&P 9FS was launched about 3 years ago, not three decades ago.

Oh absolutely... However, part of my motivation here was to consolidate to something that didn't need too much done out of the box. What I was trying to ascertain is if the M&P is still experiencing growing pains, what years have these bugs and which don't (if any) and if what tinkering they require out of the box is enough to put me back to looking at something else.

One would also do well to read the endurance test the M&P experienced at Pistol Training.com.

I read through a fair bit of that one, and the HKp30 test as well. Impressive for sure. I would love to see one done on a CZ.. but I know that's not gonna happen.

John_Wayne777

07-28-10, 07:12

I'm working through it. Just seemed like a host of issues not to dissimilar from other pistols that need lots of attention.

Not quite.

The M&P is by no means a perfect handgun...which is reflected in that thread. They did have strikers that broke with dryfire, but even after all this time I have yet to find a single documented instance of one going tits up during live fire. S&W has released strikers that handle dryfire better...although I'm still running on older strikers that haven't broken in my carry guns that have seen a lot of rounds and a lot of dryfire without a snap cap. All guns, however, will break with enough dryfire.

The 9mm versions of the M&P do have the potential for extraction issues when shooting ammo that has a small rim. To most, this means Winchester White Box, which is cheap and readily available. As I said in the thread, I've put over 10,000 rounds of WWB through 9mm M&P handguns...and I've experienced exactly four failures to extract. (Far less than what CZ brags about in their "NATO test" blurb) I've never had a problem with literally any other brand of ammunition, including cheap Russian lacquer coated, steel-cased stuff.

The reset issues are largely a result of using a non-standard sear like the Performance Center sear or an aftermarket sear...in other words, people screwing with the gun to tune the trigger.

Now those issues have to be considered in the context of the thousands of guns out there enduring service use and heavy use without issue. I can, after all, find 9mm Glocks that don't work out of the box if I look hard enough. I can find examples of issues and problems with every type of handgun on the market if I look hard enough...which is why I stated clearly that there are no perfect handguns.

...but the fact that all mass-producers of firearms occasionally ship lemons or get brilliant ideas for engineering changes that turn out to be stupid doesn't mean that all the options on the market are equal. Glock has a big chunk of the pistol market and of all the 9mm handguns they've produced a relatively small percentage of them experience problems. They have a well documented and well established track record of functioning right out of the box and are known to continue to function even when they are not maintained. They've done well in scores of tests for contracts as far as reliability and durability, even if they weren't eventually chosen as the winner.

It's impossible to find a model or brand of firearm that has never had any problems. It is possible, however, to do some research and find out that some weapons have a decidedly lower incidence of problems than others.

Oh absolutely... However, part of my motivation here was to consolidate to something that didn't need too much done out of the box. What I was trying to ascertain is if the M&P is still experiencing growing pains, what years have these bugs and which don't (if any) and if what tinkering they require out of the box is enough to put me back to looking at something else.

Generally speaking, if you buy a stock M&P it'll work. If you experience some problems, generally a trip back to S&W resolves the issue. If you get one that works, either from the box or after a free trip back to S&W, you can shoot lots of rounds through it before you need to worry about doing anything to the gun. I believe S&W recommends changing out the recoil spring every 5,000 rounds or so...but I had well over 10,000 on my original M&P before I ever changed out the recoil spring with no problems. You'll want to change the trigger return spring at the recommended intervals, but that's true of a Glock as well. Beyond that, you don't have to do much. I bought a couple of M&P's from Grant earlier this year and I've taken one of them through a number of classes this year...all told almost 6,000 rounds through the gun in classes alone...more in personal practice. I've never actually cleaned it. I just ensure there isn't too much crud under the extractor, put some lube on it before a class and shoot it. When the class is over I just throw it back in the range bag and then into the safe until I'm ready to shoot it again.

That's about as low maintenance as it gets.

Cazwell

07-28-10, 11:51

John Wayne... thanks for the recap and info.

Wife and I are going to the range today and will be renting Glocks and M&P's. A few trips like that should help in choosing. Two of the biggest difference I find mentioned between those two are that the M&P has a lower bore axis (and thus the benefits that come with that) and the Glock has a better trigger with a much shorter reset.

Both have a strong presence in my area and I don't think mags/holsters/lights etc will ever be a problem.

Cincinnatus

07-28-10, 12:35

I own a CZ 75 Single Action in 9mm and a CZ 75 SP-01 tactical in 40 S&W.

Yes, but you never shoot them! :D

AJD

07-29-10, 00:09

I don't shoot as often as many here but I know a lot of general information about a wide range of firearms. Lever actions, single action revolvers, single shot rifles, semi auto rifles, shotguns, semi auto pistols, double action revolvers, military and sporting alike etc. etc.

I'm not some newbie fool that fiddles with a DA revolver at a gun store because I can't figure out how to open the cylinder.

I also know what auto pistols would be best served for defensive use. This and a wide range of other resources online have made that clear to me a long time ago. If your trying to protect some newbie from going and picking up a CZ75 because they think its in the same category as a Glock then good job.

I know that most general plinker's will not encounter any issues with their CZ's because they will never put them through their paces. The CZ75 is just one of many different handguns I've owned in the last five years and it is nothing more than another gun in the collection that I enjoy taking to the range. I only rely on it to be what it is and nothing more.

I don't need all my guns to be the optimal choice in defense weapons. I don't need them to all be low maintenance and ultra durable. I have many guns that are outdated relics compared to modern guns. So I will take my chances and hope my slide stop doesn't break on my CZ in the unlikely scenario I'm shooting it at a bad guy. And I won't be ditching my Single Action Army revolvers or my lever action rifles or whatever else just because they are not the optimal defensive weapons.

TiroFijo

07-29-10, 16:57

Nice pre-B :)

Are those the original grips? Those early plastic grips were weak, and the mag baseplate is flimsy too (the mag body is high quality).

After all we have said here (including me), I still like them...

blade_68

08-26-10, 21:37

My first one is like Iraqgunz I bought mine at "Maintzl GE" the same year and price. I shot the S*** out of it from 91-95 up to and over 1000 rounds a weekend... in 96 bought CZ85 shot 2-6 K.. then It became a safe queen right side slide lock broke and fell off noticed when reloading.:mad: CZ83 380 blued accurate and reliable pistol but had a rust problem in SE Ga.:( (CC) got CZ83 in SS during the times full size to much to carry location/ weather wise. as of now G19 W light and CZ83 as NY reload "Off Duty Carry"

johnson

08-26-10, 22:44

Owner of a 75B SA, Kadet conversion .22lr, 452 Lux .22lr, 550 American 6.5x55 Swede, Dan Wesson Valor .45ACP (sold). Yeah, I kinda like CZ's. I bought them when they were affordable (2 years ago) and like them but I'm not so quick to recommend them now since price has increased every year.

I sent out my 75B to get an action job done and should get it back by next weekend. The trigger is supposed to be amazing on it.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1755.jpg

OldGreg

08-27-10, 11:36

Why'd you let the Valor go? I thought those were pretty hot.

johnson

08-27-10, 12:35

I didn't shoot it much and the recoil felt snappy to me. Much more than a Glock 30 or HK USP. I sold it because I wanted to consolidate to one caliber (9mm) and felt that an M&P or HK45 would be a better choice for a .45ACP platform. I really don't remember what I did with the money that I got for it so I still don't have an M&P or HK45. :laugh:

OldGreg

08-27-10, 15:13

Ahh. Gotcha.

TiroFijo

08-28-10, 09:17

Blade_68,

The right slide stop breakage is a common issue on the CZ 85, that's why I much prefer the non-ambi CZ 75.

johnson,

I also have a 452 Lux, and a 550 Lux in 308. Both extremely good shooters, and very nice looking guns.

Para1*

08-28-10, 09:56

I own a CZ-75 SP-01 and I love it, I don't like the too soft rubber grips that come on it though. I bought some Houge Extreme G10 grips and they are awesome. I also replaced the plastic guide rod with a steel one. It is a solid gun and works well.

5935

sdacbob

08-28-10, 16:16

I had a CZ 75 I bought at the Rod & Gun club in Germany in the early 90's. One of the pre-B versions. Loved it. It was stolen twice, recovered once. Now I have a CZ 75D Compact PCR. Great pistol!!!

Skyyr

08-28-10, 16:38

I read through a fair bit of that one, and the HKp30 test as well. Impressive for sure. I would love to see one done on a CZ.. but I know that's not gonna happen.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218

ChicagoTex

08-28-10, 19:48

I guess thinking back there was one Glock that was choking all over the place and I do not know what the issue was there.

FWIW in my experience 9 times out of ten you see a Glock choking that much, it's someone who bought a 22 or 23 and then put a 9mm conversion barrel in and thought it'd be the same as a 17 or 19.

johnson

08-29-10, 03:20

Got an update on my gun and I am told that it breaks at 1.75lb :eek:. I've put as much money into this one that I could've bought the SA Target model but I think mine has the better trigger since the firing pin block has been removed.

CZ 75 SA Target at CZ Custom - $1099
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/75satarget.jpg

Mine. Just need to change the grips.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/aMG_3991.jpg[/QUOTE]

The Solid

08-29-10, 10:01

I have been using my cz 75 po7 duty for awhile now and am constantly impressed by it. It did have the usual issues most have had with the first run ones, but a quick trip to CZ and all was good. Very accurate and very ergonomic. I had been a die hard 1911 guy previous, and was quite apprehensive of my new tupperware toy, but this thing really does change my mind. I am truly a CZ convert, and although many CZ owners frown upon the Duty, I like it. I am now looking at several other CZ models to add to the herd. Anyways thanks CZ!

Seraph

08-29-10, 10:42

I can't say I'm a "Zedhead," but I do have a little 75B, the second that I've owned, that I like really well. It's kind of in mid-customization, and has had the lockwork replaced and honed by my good friend, and phenomenal gunsmith, Shannon Jennings. Sights, "treebark" stippling, and Melonite QPQ are on the menu. Like the first one I had, it runs superbly, and is laser beam accurate.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Trisagion/CZ_SwissArmy_Left_web.jpg

vel525

08-29-10, 11:11

CZ owner here as well. So far my P-01 has been great in the year and half I've had it. I ran it through two formal classes so far. The first was a 6 hour indoor class in Northern VA and shot maybe 700 rounds (won this class in a raffle so that was a plus :D). Second course was a two-day pistol class down in Blackwater right before the major storm that came through DC last winter. It was pouring rain (half water half ice) the entire time and I had on half of my snowboarding gear to stay dry/warm. We shot steel and paper and it was a blast. Seriously, others in the group were quitting because they were cold and I stayed outside until they made me go inside! :p I definitely shot over 1,000 rounds (ammo was free!) that weekend and had no problems with the P-01. Again, I'm a sample of one and will admit I have not exceeded 10,000 rounds yet. But I will also say I run my guns pretty dirty. Didn't clean the P-01 before either classes and I only clean it every few thousand rounds (I really should do better with that). I also wish CZ would run Todd's Torture Test as I'm curious how it would do. So far I've been happy with the P-01. It shoots great and feels great in my hand. I did send mine to Matt Mink to get the trigger worked on and some night sites added.

With that said, I am also a big fan of the M&P series and own both an MP9 and MP9c. I wish S&W made an in-between size similar to the G19 because that's the size I prefer to conceal carry on my frame comfortably. I am planning on picking up a Gen 4 G19 next to check it out. Plan is to continue training with the P-01 and shoot the G19 once in awhile at the range. If I really fall in love with the G19, I will assess whether changing platforms makes sense. If it does, great that means I get to buy more gun related stuff (holster, mags, etc). If not, great I have another gun to let others shoot when I take them shooting.

misanthropist

08-29-10, 17:50

FWIW in my experience 9 times out of ten you see a Glock choking that much, it's someone who bought a 22 or 23 and then put a 9mm conversion barrel in and thought it'd be the same as a 17 or 19.

IIRC it was a 22, but I do not believe it had a conversion barrel. In fact I am 99% sure the gun was in factory configuration.

ChicagoTex

08-29-10, 19:35

IIRC it was a 22, but I do not believe it had a conversion barrel. In fact I am 99% sure the gun was in factory configuration.

Huh. Weird.

ahisashimi

08-30-10, 22:29

Well, that was a read...

A little background: Own a variety of CZ design pattern guns, have done many action jobs on said guns and have years of manual and CNC machining under my belt and have designed many products that are in the category of "cannot fail (or people might die)" applications.

I'd like to address a few points:

Slide stop "design flaw" as some have stated. This is way overblown in this thread. About as much as in some other threads I've read about their Glocks going kaboom. There is no inherent design flaw with the CZ pattern in my opinion. However, if some of you who continue to make this claim would prefer to provide some actual data that back those claims up, I'm all ears. I think others have quite adequately covered the issue and put it to rest - out of tolerance guns have resulted in broken slide stops. It happens, and it didn't happen due to any inherent design flaw.

Machining quality. Yes, the CZs are typically rough. Their triggers are gritty from the get go and they usually have an abundance of tooling marks on the slide and frame. Said tooling roughness is usually of the cosmetic variety, however. Now that said, on the P-01 I own and per CZs marketing "claims", there is a significant quality bump in the machining on a P-01. I haven't noticed the same bump in quality on the SP-01, however. It could have something to do with their NSN cert, who knows. It is more likely the case that the aluminum frames for the P-01 run on newer CNC machines held to higher tolerances. All speculation on my part, however...

I think there are a few things this thread has missed up to this point:

1) The CZ design pattern is produced by a variety of different manufacturers. On the economical end is Tanfoglio (Italian) and on the pricey end is Sphinx (Swiss). If you compare a CZ, part by part, to a Tanfoglio, you'll readily note that the Tanfoglio is both machined and finished to higher standards and has a number of "nice touches" on the internals where things were changed enough to make a positive difference. Of course, all new Tanfoglios have a redesigned frame and come in any caliber you wish to shoot. My pin gun is a 10mm with my load that pushes a 180gr. @ 1300 FPS which gets the pins off the table in a hurry. Point being, if there were any inherent "design flaw" I'd likely have a kB story or two to tell but I don't... That said, there are many CZ pattern guns you can buy with the same or better ergos if you don't actually want the CZ name brand. For instance, previously mentioned gripes about the short beavertail are usually addressed in the other manufactures products.

2) I think that relying only on the CZs use in the military/armed forces as to it's "reputation" is limiting, for two reasons. One is because we do not have the data. Yeah you can assume that use is "over reported", but without any real data, you'd be no closer to the truth. The second reason, is that the CZ design pistols are very widely and actively used in competition (particularly in Europe). In fact, they are most common in IPSC/USPSA Production class which, contrary to earlier claims, means they are not highly modified "race guns" and of course are also widely used as Open class guns. The top three used are CZ, Tanfoglio and Spinx. In fact as I opened up my Front Sight magazine today, I see on page 23 a nice picture of a Production Sphinx held by Jack Romer. This point to be made here is simple, really: serious competitors don't seek out unreliable guns and they do put thousands of rounds through those guns (at least the serious ones do...).

John_Wayne777

08-31-10, 07:03

This point to be made here is simple, really: serious competitors don't seek out unreliable guns and they do put thousands of rounds through those guns (at least the serious ones do...).

Serious competitors seek out guns that give them an advantage...which is why we refer to them as race guns. Believe it or not, certain military units have tried looking to what competitive shooters were using as inspiration for what they should be using as a combat sidearm and it generally hasn't gone terribly well for them. There are some double-stack 1911's in .40 S&W out there that used to belong to a high-speed unit that gave it the ol' college try because those guns were very popular in competitive circles. The guns seemed to do very well in the hands of competitive shooters that put a lot of rounds downrange with them. They didn't do so hot as a combat sidearm in a unit with an op tempo that is insane.

Thinking about this logically, how many times has somebody lost a stage or a match because their race-gun with the sub-2 pound trigger went full auto on them?

1911 pattern pistols rule the top levels of gun games in the US despite the well known flaws and problems with the 1911 pistol...and all because the forgiving trigger on the 1911 gives competitors a maximum shot at making the hits. No, competitive shooters do not automatically seek out the most unreliable weapon they can find, but they do make compromises in their selection of gear if it gives them a competitive advantage.

Yes, competitive shooters put a lot of rounds downrange...and they typically are pretty good about maintaining their firearms because if they don't, they know that their guns will stop working. Competitive shooting is it's own thing and comparing the equipment that dominates it with the requirements for a combat sidearm is often as difficult as trying to compare a formula 1 racecar with a Ford truck.

ahisashimi

08-31-10, 08:26

Competitive shooting is it's own thing and comparing the equipment that dominates it with the requirements for a combat sidearm is often as difficult as trying to compare a formula 1 racecar with a Ford truck.

I don't know that I implicitly or explicitly made any such claim or comparison. If that was your take-away message here, than I apologize.

I'll summarize my thoughts as they apply to this thread and what I previously stated:

1) The CZ design has no inherent "design flaw". The few stories of broken slide pins are related to out-of-tolerance machining, not any inherent flaw.

2) I am quite comfortable with and have no second thoughts about a CZ as a carry weapon. At least not as it relates to the reliability/durability of the platform.

That is all.

TiroFijo

08-31-10, 09:06

ahisashimi,

I broke the slide stop in my 1994 CZ 75 ("transitional" model, pre B but with square trigger guard and pinned front sight) at about 7,500round count, 10% factory FMJ SAAMI normal pressure specs (not hot loads), and 90% reloads at similar pressures, PF 130-139.

I live in Paraguay, and when I contacted the gunsmith at CZ USA (John Eaglesmith, IIRC) he told me it was a common occurrene, as well as QC problems with recoil springs ("most pistols are undersprung"). I got a slide stop from them (faster than going the euro route) and haven't got a problem for 10,000+ rounds since.

Many local friends (from Paraguay and Argentina) had similar problems in the same time frame, and had to replace the slide stops. For some reason the Tanfoglios and Jerichos (IMI and Tanfoglio coproduction) don't have the same problem, or at least not that often. I lived in South Africa in 1991-92, and the CZ 75 was VERY popular there, regarded very good value for the money. Many shooters were very proficient and practiced often, yet no one complained about early slide stop breakages, so I guess it is mostly a QC problem and not a design one.

BUT it is a wear part, the CZ SP01 Shadow (VERY good gun for IPSC production, BTW) competition spare parts kit has 6 slide stops...
https://shop.cz-usa.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=10999
and most people that shoot IPSC production try to stay a lower PF, say about 130 to lessen recoil. +P or NATO 9 mm have higher power factors, 145-153, that increase slide velocity and impact on this part.

I've seen quality IPSC double stacks 1911s in 40 running like a sewing machine for 100.000+ rounds, even with the ultra high capacity mags (19-20 rounds that fit in "the box"), but like JW777 said they are not duty guns...

I have NO problem with my CZ 75 as a self defense pistol, but I would recommend something like the G17/19 to a friend: lighter, universal parts availability, better QC and less maintenance.

ahisashimi

08-31-10, 10:08

TiroFijo - Great input! I think I would agree with your last statement wholeheartedly. I might not recommend the CZ over a Glock for carry, but I also wouldn't suggest anything against it. I think the actual difference is more academic when weighed against training.

The rest of what you've stated suggests that of all the manufacturers the produce the CZ pattern, CZ itself may be the worst in terms of QC/quality. This, as odd as it seems, agree with my first-hand experience.

Regarding PF for production, you have to weigh this against how they are sprung, also. I'm sure CZ would consider many of the competition springs "out of tolerance" (too light) for reliable use and this could help explain the extra beating that the slide stop takes on a competition gun.

jwinch2

08-31-10, 10:31

I have two CZ handguns. The first one I bought was an SP-01 tactical that I sent in to the custom shop for a reliability package and trigger job. Actually, I sent it for the trigger job and they gave me the reliability package for free. The trigger now is incredibly smooth and crisp. The second CZ I purchased is the P-01. I love that gun. I have approx. 1000 rounds through it without a failure and the only work I have had done to it was the installation of night sights and I had the trigger smoothed and lightened (just a bit as it is my daily carry and beside the bed piece). I actually like the P-01 so much that I am considering selling the SP-01 tactical since I never shoot it. It probably only has 400 rounds through it total.

CZ seems to make a great handgun from my own personal experience though I have no data to refute some of the claims the otherway which have been stated in this thread. I have tried to like Glock but they are so damn uncomfortable in my hand that I don't even enjoy shooting them. I had an HK 45 which I also tried to like but the trigger was so horrible and the gun was not accurate in my hands so I got rid of it. Regarding the M&P series, I like what little I have seen but I try to wait longer before I decide to go with a relatively new platform regardless of how good they seem out of the gate. In 10 years, we will have a good deal more knowledge about the reliability and longevity of the platform than we do now. As for me, I am completely comfortable in my CZ P-01 and I am also considering picking up the 97-BD for a step up to .45 acp. If anyone has that particular weapon I would be interested in getting your thoughts on it.

TOrrock

08-31-10, 15:30

This point to be made here is simple, really: serious competitors don't seek out unreliable guns and they do put thousands of rounds through those guns (at least the serious ones do...).

I sure as hell wouldn't use that as a benchmark.

Todd Jarrett is a hell of a good shooter with that Para Ordnance, but I sure as shit wouldn't call Para's reliable or durable enough for defensive use.

montrala

09-01-10, 16:48

The second reason, is that the CZ design pistols are very widely and actively used in competition (particularly in Europe). In fact, they are most common in IPSC/USPSA Production class which, contrary to earlier claims, means they are not highly modified "race guns" and of course are also widely used as Open class guns. The top three used are CZ, Tanfoglio and Spinx. In fact as I opened up my Front Sight magazine today, I see on page 23 a nice picture of a Production Sphinx held by Jack Romer. This point to be made here is simple, really: serious competitors don't seek out unreliable guns and they do put thousands of rounds through those guns (at least the serious ones do...).

CZ is not used by shooters for it's reliability. Adam Tyc started to shoot CZ after he won his first title with Glock, becouse CZ offered him sponsorship contract. Same reason why Eric Grauffel uses Tanfoglio. They are great shooters and pistol they use do not handicap them as long as it's usable (and they have army of spetialists to make sure it is).

CZ in Production got lot of attention becouse of 19rd magazine capacity. Now with "15rd loaded" rule in IPSC more and more shooters go back from CZ to Glock or even start to look at HK P30.

In Open only top shooters that use CZ are from... CZ factory team. CZ just introduced new model for Open (suposed to be same pistol as Martin Kamenicek uses) for mere $4400 - I'll pass on it.

In Standard CZ is used mostly becouse it's like 30% cheaper than Tanfoglio and 50% or more cheaper than Sphinx or STI/SVI. Good trigger system and low bore axis are strong point here, but same goes to Tanfoglio (in fact updated CZ clone), with better durability on Tanfoglio side.

BTW Sphinx is very rarely used - maybe some sponsored shooters use them and pose for magazine photos, but basically Sphinx does nothing better than Tanfoglio in any department for 50%-100% more money. In all my years of IPSC shooting around Europe (including biggest matches like EHC or CZ EEO) I do not need to remove my shoes to count spotted Sphinx.

ETA I'm not saying CZ is bad. In fact it's great design. Making it is one of few examples of contesting exclusive adoption of soviet construction in small arms in soviet block. Western "cloners" like Tanfoglio, Sphinx or Jeriho only give credit to ingeniuity of design. But execution of this design in scope of durability, reliability, materials and technologies uses still sometime resembles standards from past era. CZs are like cars made in our factories 30 years ago - you can get one that will work fine forever or one that no matter what you do, will keep failing. Bad day, bad weather, anything - just lottery.

TiroFijo

09-01-10, 17:05

Thanks montrala! :)

Did you see/experience any durability issues with the CZ 75? If so, what parts?

I agree with you variable QC observation, and IMO the new CZ 75s seem less finely finished than the old (...until early 90s?) ones. They are sharper and some parts seem MIM or cast.

An Undocumented Worker

09-01-10, 19:05

I havn't seen any MIM parts in my 2 CZ's manufactured in 08. most of the parts have some rough machining to them on certain faces, but I have seen no casting marks on CZ factory parts.

I did get a set of Meprolight truglo night sites for my 75b stainless that appeared to be MIM'd where as the set I got for my PCR the year prior did not appear to be MIM'd

Suwannee Tim

09-01-10, 19:50

I have a CZ 550 American Safari Magnum in .458 Winchester magnum which sports a Leupold M8 4X scope, about as simple and reliable as a scope gets. I don't shoot it a lot. Maybe 20 rounds when I take it out. Never fired a factory made cartridge out of it. Probably never will. I can handload a 500 grain bullet for a buck and a quarter a shot, a 350 grain bullet for maybe 80 cents. Factory ammo is several bux a shot.

Business_Casual

09-01-10, 20:16

Suwannee Tim

09-01-10, 20:46

What?

.458. You know, looks like a cigar.

TOrrock

09-01-10, 21:01

The CZ bolt guns are fantastic modern versions of the Mauser sporting rifles, but I think where the confusion came from is that this thread is in the handgun section....

I'd love a 452 Safari, even though I'll never go on one...

Suwannee Tim

09-01-10, 21:26

So it is. So it is.

larryp

09-01-10, 21:51

My only CZ is a CZ-82 but I like it and carry it quite a lot when I need a smaller auto to carry.

johnson

09-01-10, 22:25

Received my gun back yesterday and put 85 rounds through it this afternoon (the other 15 was to try out an SR9). It shoots like a dream and feels much better than the DW Valor I had.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_0947.jpg

montrala

09-02-10, 09:32

Did you see/experience any durability issues with the CZ 75? If so, what parts?

Breaking slide stop pin (main axle we call it here) everybody knows. Beside that breaking springs. Less common are broken slides or frames. Barrels shot out clean (no rifling) in less than 20.000 rounds as well.

Beside this extraction and feeding problem are always present on matches (mostly with P-01 and large frame CZ IPSC aka Tactical). Actually when CZ IPSC got introduced many people here go them. Soon they started to decipher IPSC as "Inne Pistolety Strzelają Chętniej" (in loose translation: other pistols are more eager to shoot). Also adjustable sights on those were breaking all the time When CZ changed IPSC model in Tactical model they got rid of those and deliver them with non adjustable ones installed in same spot as older sight - then adjustable sights are upgrade on your own risk.

But... using CZ P-01 magazines in small frame Tanfoglios is reliability upgrade for Tanfoglio.

BTW You would not belive that, but I actually like CZ :dance3: (my first private handgun was HK P2000 just becouse CZ distributor did not want to get SP-01 for me), despite not owning one at the moment (we need to have separate permit for each firearm and getting those is 100% based on Police good will - they do not have much of good will, so I use my permits on something else). They shoot nice, flat and have good ergonomy, especially for commie era design. Did not have chance to shoot P-07 but will try it soon.

Brian H

09-03-10, 20:49

I picked up an SP-01 Tactical on the advice of a competition shooter friend of mine and have been pretty pleased with it. Also picked up the factory magazine 3-pack deal from CZ-USA to go along with it. I only have a few hundred rounds through it, but I have yet to experience a malfunction so far after shooting some Magtech, WWB, and Speer Gold Dot +P through it in a variety of environments. The accuracy is phenomenal and I love the fit of the grip in my hand. I do recommend going through and giving a thorough cleaning and lubing of the gun after you take it home and keeping it well lubed for every range trip to keep it in top shape. I don't think this would replace my Glock for defensive use, but I don't think I would have any issue carrying it for that purpose either.

I am considering giving this one the 2,000 round challenge, but I wanted to break it in first. I plan on keeping a good range log so I can figure out exactly what maintenance should be performed and when.

(and some pics to make the thread better)
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_ddaP84c2F7I/TEFSXC6YS9I/AAAAAAAAAB8/Xkij7lEJlJw/s640/DSC01007.JPG
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ddaP84c2F7I/THdfNz9aqhI/AAAAAAAAAQc/xAROHY2WIbI/s640/DSC01056.JPG