View Full Version : General safe/gun safe info
I'm not a safe expert, but I have done a fair amount of research on the topic, and what follows may be of help to those looking at safes/gun safes. When it comes to safes (and the term "safe" we will get to shortly...) you truly get what you pay for. You don't have spend a fortune for a good container, but in my view, it makes no sense to protect expensive guns, your wife's jewelry, and essential documents in a "safe" gotten from the sporing goods store.
It's essential to understand what usually passes for a "safe" is nothing of the kind. Companies spend a lot of time on fancy paint jobs, impressive handles, and marketing to convince people they are getting a true safe. However, the vast majority of what's sold are Residential Security Container (RSCs)
Companies give you a shiny fancy looking door, etc, but at the end of the day it's at best RSC rated, and not a "safe" as viewed by anyone who actually knows/installs real safes. It's important to note, not all RSCs are created equal, but when you look at what the actual RSC UL rating means, it will make you cringe:
"UL rated safes that carry the RSC label offer protection from tool attacks against the door of the safe for five minutes. Safes that carry the TL-15 and TL-30 classification offer protection from tool attacks against the safe's door for 15 or 30 minutes, respectively. Safes rated TLTR-15 or TLTR-30 offer protection from tool and torch attacks against the door for 15 or 30 minutes, respectively. Safes that are rated TLTRX6-15 or TLTRX6-30 offer protection from tool and torch attacks against any part of the safe for either 15 or 30 minutes. Of course, the price increases with the protection level."
If what you have/are considering, is UL Rated (and I wouldn't buy it if were not, but that's me and if there are any real lock smiths/safe installers here who wish to comment/correct me, please do) look at the inside door panel, there should be a tag that lists its UL rating.
Another important issue, especially for gun safes, most companies use simple gypsum board is an insulator, which draws moisture. They may use fancy terms, but on opening a wall, its gypsum board.
Higher end safes will use a composite of some sort, that is better all around for both fire and security. To the best of my knowledge, only AMSEC uses a composite in the lower end BF series products for example which improves it's security as well as fire rating.
Budget is the essential issue here, as you can get a cheap 12g gun locker or a TL30 AMSEC gun safe, and much inbetween. It's often a good idea to decide on what to spend on a safe as a % of what it is you are trying to protect, as well as other factors, such as additional security (alarms, quality of locks, doors, etc, etc) but securing things yo don't want stolen means not putting it in a cheap metal box that's intended to prevent kids and "snatch and grab" types.
Second consideration is location, as a real safe has limitations where you can put it due to their weight and size.
As mentioned, not all RSCs are created equal. For example, the AMSEC BF series is as good as some companies B rates safes, etc.. and probably the best of the RSCs on the market.
Finally, no matter what you get, have it bolted down. I can't tell you how many times I have read about safes simply being carried off by a few guys with a hand truck, with the owner (ex owner!) always being shocked! If a few guys with a sturdy hand truck can get it in your house, what makes anyone believe the reverse is not true???
If you do everything right and it still gets broken into/taken away, 99.9%, it's an inside job and someone knew exactly what you had and came prepared, so pick your friends well!
If you have the budget and need to protect an expensive collection (and people willing to put their collection of fine guns into a cheap RSC are asking for trouble...). I believe AMSEC is the only company that makes a TL30 UL listed gun safe.
It's a monster...See:
http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-HS-main.htm
That's my basic run down/advice on safes that comes from my research, discussions with many a safe installer, etc. Feel free to add your thoughts. I'm sure some of you can confirm what I said above about safes simply being taken away during your work experiences as LE.
Good info, thanks Will. One of the things I've read about and heard from guys at a local safe store is to go with the old school dial rather than the electronic keypad. The keypads have a much higher failure rate than the traditional dial so you may want to keep that in mind as well.
I'm in the process of doing some research as well and http://www.sturdysafe.com/ was recommended to me by a friend. I haven't compared them directly to Amsec yet but they do look well made from a quick glance at their site.
Good info, thanks Will. One of the things I've read about and heard from guys at a local safe store is to go with the old school dial rather than the electronic keypad. The keypads have a much higher failure rate than the traditional dial so you may want to keep that in mind as well.
I'm in the process of doing some research as well and http://www.sturdysafe.com/ was recommended to me by a friend. I haven't compared them directly to Amsec yet but they do look well made from a quick glance at their site.
From my own experience and research, key pads hold up fine on good products. I know the safe installer for the areas largest seller of safes (and that's all they sell, not a sporting goods store, gun store, etc) and he told me he has seen very few failures of key pads by companies like AMSEC. I believe AMSEC is the largest most experienced company in safes, but I'm sure other decent brands exist. I will say, of the many popular brands out there people use, those I know who install safes for a living, tell me AMSEC is the way to go for the $$$$.
Other then locking up a few cheap guns to keep away from kids, etc, I wouldn't go below their BF series, but that's me. ;)
montanadave
04-11-10, 12:08
For what it's worth, I found the information in this article ("Gun Safe Buyer's Guide" at http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsafes.html) quite helpful when I was shopping for a safe.
As much as the original statement sounds lke a plug, in dong my own research I've found it to be true. Most RSCs are rated for hand tools, can be opened with a multitude of things available in many garages, and are really just RSCs.
It seems there are some companies that do security better and other which offer better in the fire protecton realm.
For the money it seems AmSec makes a good RSC.
For those who are just looking for hand tool proof and looking to spend under 1k, Costco offers a wide array of decent RSCs with free shipping.
For those who are just looking for hand tool proof and looking to spend under 1k, Costco offers a wide array of decent RSCs with free shipping.
With a even a decent RSC from AMSEC costing about that of one good gun that gets stolen...
From what friends have told me, the big problem with key pads is that after you access your safe many times, the keys that are part of your combination have worn so that they stand out from the keys that are not used. All a thief would have to do is figure out the correct order.
From what friends have told me, the big problem with key pads is that after you access your safe many times, the keys that are part of your combination have worn so that they stand out from the keys that are not used. All a thief would have to do is figure out the correct order.
Can't speak for other brands, but not the case with the AMSEC.
Can't speak for other brands, but not the case with the AMSEC.
Can you explain why not? I have seen keypads that move the numbers around so that a pattern is not worn but not on a safe.
Thanks
Buckaroo
Can you explain why not?
I suppose due to the materials, colors, etc of the key pad they use. It's commcerial quality, and I have gone in and out of the safe several times a day for years and you can't see any differences at all on the pad keys. One could simply change the numbers say yearly to avoid that if it's an issue, but I have not found it to be so after years of regular use myself.
Iraq Ninja
04-12-10, 08:21
From what friends have told me, the big problem with key pads is that after you access your safe many times, the keys that are part of your combination have worn so that they stand out from the keys that are not used. All a thief would have to do is figure out the correct order.
That is why you should change your combination, using some or all of the keys not used with the old combination.
My Fort Knox keypad has not shown any wear at all after 4 years.
Nathan_Bell
04-12-10, 08:49
The best defense is to never let anyone know what you have. Because even a very good safe is like the Club car security device. It will make non-pro's look elsewhere, but not really slow down a pro.
I have two gun safes. One is a Fort Knox the other is a big assed Diebold commercial safe that is large enough to hold guns. Locksmith has broken into my Diebold in the time it took me to smoke a cigarette, without tools. He is a very good locksmith who truly loves his profession and goes about improving his skills in a fashion that exemplifies what a professional should be. So you might see an average one take 10-15 minutes to break into your safe. Unless you have purchased a bank vault door and built a hardened room, a pro will get into the safe in an incredibly short amount of time.
Buy a good, HEAVY safe that will slow down smash and grabbers, locate it in a position that makes knocking it over challenging/dangerous/ or both, and has a very good fire rating. Just do not think it will slow a pro down much.
The problem I've seen with keypads, not just on safes but doors and even cars, is not the wear but the dirt and grease that collect around the keys and the polishing effect of the fingers. I also have some doors at work that use 4 digit codes on solid aluminum keys and have 30 people through them 8-12 times each per day. The code keys are polished smooth and quite noticeable when compared to the others. Of course this isn't typically usage that your safe would see, but it does happen.
My whole safe philosophy has been protection from water and fire, safety for the kids and making the smash-and-grab guys want to move on to something quicker. If someone really wants in, there is nothing you can do but hope to slow them down. Their determination and amount of time on hand will have more of a direct affect on loosing your stuff than the amount of money you spend on the safe. That isn't to say that you can get away with the Wal-Mart special, but that the difference between a $2K safe and a $5K safe will boil down to how much you are going to shell out to replace it when it gets destroyed. I live in incorporated city, so a 1 hour fire and water rating will suffice.
I'm in the process of building a safe room into an empty space in the basement to hold mine. The area will be built up cinder block/cement and the safe will be set deep into it's own reinforced nook that will require someone to take a big sledge hammer to the block before they can use tools against the door. It will be securely fastened to the concrete floor with no wiggle room for breaking it loose. The worst thing you can ever do is allow the safe to be knocked over on a side. If that happens, it's game over for most. In that position, getting tools under the door and using your weight to get in just cut the time needed by a factor of 10.
The other thing to think about is deception. You have reloading equipment, ammo, shooting gear, magazines and what not laying around. If someone breaks in they are going to know something is there. Install your big safe in a hidden place and keep the $79 Mosin's in a $300 Sentry secured in your closet. Yes, it would suck to have anything taken but most thugs are happy to just grab anything and run. Once apon a time my dad, a small town deputy, had his house broken into and they took the $200 SKS that was still in the wrapper and left his issued full-auto converted M1 carbine. They had no idea what they were after and just grabbed the one that looked the most appealing and ran.
Buy a good, HEAVY safe that will slow down smash and grabbers, locate it in a position that makes knocking it over challenging/dangerous/ or both, and has a very good fire rating. Just do not think it will slow a pro down much.
Agreed, but a true pro, is not generally breaking into homes. The vast majority of safes are either simply taken away (this happens FAR more often then people realize/appreciate) to be opened later, or opened via brute force using tools you left out, etc. So, it still makes sense to protect a collection with a box that will stop most brute force attacks, and or taking it away to be opened later.
Obviously, good security is layered, and included an alarm, good locks (correctly installed..) doors, windows, etc. makes it simply not worth the risk for 99% of them, unless they know what you have, and they come prepared, which = inside job.
Personally, I recommend people get at least a BF series AMSEC, which is very good for an RSC and costs about what one good gun costs.
Was just reading about a guy who had an extensive gun collection stolen, and he did have decent security. It reminded to bump this thread. This is a decent vid also on safe basics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1104&v=ltK-bDbADa8
brickboy240
07-22-15, 11:37
Interesting information.
Yes..a good safe will run you at least a few grand.
I had one built for me by these guys:
http://www.sportsmansteelsafes.com/
Not cheap and boy, was it a circus act to get it in the house and set up (LOL) but I store lots of things in it and really do not worry.
-brickboy240
Interesting information.
Yes..a good safe will run you at least a few grand.
That would be a starting point at best for a decent RSC.
I had one built for me by these guys:
http://www.sportsmansteelsafes.com/
Not cheap and boy, was it a circus act to get it in the house and set up (LOL) but I store lots of things in it and really do not worry.
-brickboy240
Says on the site "10 GAUGE BODIES" for their gun safes, which would really be an RSC not a safe. The AMSEC BF series has 11G exterior and a 4G interior: http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes/bf-gun-safes/
I don't know if that's what you have, but a 10G body is easy to defeat. I did see 1/4" Body also listed, and that's much better. Watch that vid...
https://vimeo.com/112503043
Was just reading about a guy who had an extensive gun collection stolen, and he did have decent security. It reminded to bump this thread. This is a decent vid also on safe basics:
Talking about the poor guy on LF?
Talking about the poor guy on LF?
Yes indeed. That was some messed up sh&% right there.
Yes indeed. That was some messed up sh&% right there.
Completely agree.
When the safe discussion comes up I always stress this.. As important as having a good safe is where you put it is more important. How many of you know guys with a shiny safe embellished with gold leaf sitting in his den of even worse his garage?? You may as well put a sign on the curb advertising that you have one. A safe isn't something you want to brag about having!
When the safe discussion comes up I always stress this.. As important as having a good safe is where you put it is more important. How many of you know guys with a shiny safe embellished with gold leaf sitting in his den of even worse his garage?? You may as well put a sign on the curb advertising that you have one. A safe isn't something you want to brag about having!
Not, drawing attention to yourself and your belongings by having your big shiny safe in an easy to view location is PERSEC 101 to be sure.
Moose-Knuckle
07-22-15, 16:58
Can someone post a link to the LF story, or at least PM me one? Thanks, I haven't logged in over there in years.
Can someone post a link to the LF story, or at least PM me one? Thanks, I haven't logged in over there in years.
Thread is called "So my whole gun collection was stolen today" in Crusader Hall section.
It does not actually have bearing on this thread per se (as what happened to him does not appear to come down to the RSC he chose per se from the sound of it) but it's a reminder of what can and does happen even when one has seemingly good security. I hope they do catch the SOB who did it as I really am curious as to how they did it. Read story, you'll see what I mean.
I've decided on amsec or sturdy for my next rsc. I just got a liberty recently, that given the living arrangements, I'm happy with.
It seems the main points are :
Bolt it to concrete
wall thickness
Locking quality/studyness. I saw a winchester safe with huge crossbows attached to beams thin enough I could flex them by hand. They also locked into the wall which was iirc 14ga and had a nice big gap to get a large pry bar in.
Door gap
Seems to be the big 4 from a mechanical breaking stdpt. Material is big for torch attack.
I've decided on amsec or sturdy for my next rsc. I just got a liberty recently, that given the living arrangements, I'm happy with.
It seems the main points are :
Bolt it to concrete
wall thickness
Locking quality/studyness. I saw a winchester safe with huge crossbows attached to beams thin enough I could flex them by hand. They also locked into the wall which was iirc 14ga and had a nice big gap to get a large pry bar in.
Door gap
Seems to be the big 4 from a mechanical breaking stdpt. Material is big for torch attack.
I'm partial to AMSEC. They are the Colt of safe makers. They are the largest and most experienced, and value for $$$, no one can touch them. They are the only company that makes a TL30 rated gun safe, and like Colt, you know what you're getting, even if there's Bush Master below them and Noveske "above" them, they set the standard. There's more commercial grade AMSEC safes protecting more high end stuff than anyone else and there's a reason for that. Go into Jewelry stores etc, and you'll see AMSEC more often than any other brand by miles. They are not pretty to look at (and pretty to look at costs $$) and their focus is always on security.
What you get with others may be better looking and such, bells and whistles, etc, but for value to $$ ratio, it's a no brainer. Remember, safes are like guns in that a dealer often makes his profits more so from one brand over another, and will push one brand over another. That does not mean they are pushing a bad product on you per se but it does mean they have bias as to why they are pushing one vs another.
So, TL-30 is the highest rating for "gun" safes.
What about getting a higher rated safe and just adding your own shelving?
So, TL-30 is the highest rating for "gun" safes.
No, but only AMSEC makes a TL30 rated gun safe. That does not mean they could not produce one with a higher UL security rating.
What about getting a higher rated safe and just adding your own shelving?
That's what I did. "Gun safes" are just that due to their shape, which is designed to hold long guns. That does not mean other safes can't do the same depending on their shape, etc.
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