View Full Version : Del-ton.com: GTG
I just received my M-4 upper from Del-ton. Fantastic.
The upper is pretty nice. T-markings on the top, nice M4 ramps, really nice BCU and CH. Barrel is Chromy (not Chrome lined) but looks really sweet. Very nicely assembled.
Packaging was plush, not a mark on it.
Fast. 1 week out the door from order date. Cannot beat that.
Wish the M4 hand guards were an option, carbine hand guards not soo nice.
Paid $415 out the door, that is 14.5" 1/9 barrel, T-marked upper with M4 ramps, full BCU and CH.
You cannot beat that.
Koudous Del-Ton, I will be back for more AR goodies.
KiloSierra
05-03-07, 19:18
Bought mine from them eight months ago. My only complaints are they didn't clean the brass marks off the case deflector when they cleaned it after test firing, and the H-bar barrel turned out to not be a good choice(the weight of added accessories adds up, and I don't need the extra accuracy).
Any specs on the barrel steel & bolt steel? HPT/MP tested? Black extractor insert or blue? F marked FSB?
C4
i just ordered the very same upper hope i am as happy with the purchase as you:D
Wow I just noted the time stamp, and while it may be close to 4 years late, I just bought a Del-Ton 20" Government upper and, I thought I would answer Grant's questions:
Barrel and Bolt: no markings as to what steel on the barrel, but the bolt is Carpenter 158.
Bolt: HPT and MPI marked.
Insert: Black.
FSB: "F" marked.
Gas Key: correctly staked.
According to their website the bolts are MP tested. No where does it mention HP testing. One is worthless without the other.
http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Bolt_Assembly_p/bc1008.htm
Personally I wouldn't buy a questionable bolt when I can buy one that is known for about 12.00 more.
Their standard upper is 5.00 less than a BCM. For that you get a questionable barrel with a 1/9 twist.
Wow I just noted the time stamp, and while it may be close to 4 years late, I just bought a Del-Ton 20" Government upper and, I thought I would answer Grant's questions:
Barrel and Bolt: no markings as to what steel on the barrel, but the bolt is Carpenter 158.
Bolt: HPT and MPI marked.
Insert: Black.
FSB: "F" marked.
Gas Key: correctly staked.
jklaughrey
02-16-11, 22:32
Del-Ton GTG! I must be having a nightmare.
Their standard upper is 5.00 less than a BCM. For that you get a questionable barrel with a 1/9 twist.
To me, this is the real problem with the substandard brands.
Most time, there is not a significant savings for getting a crappy gun over a good one.
And the cost of bringing a gun up to spec ends up with you having a decent performing gun with a shitty reputation for only about $200 more than buying a quality piece to begin with.
Eurodriver
02-16-11, 22:53
To me, this is the real problem with the substandard brands.
Most time, there is not a significant savings for getting a crappy gun over a good one.
And the cost of bringing a gun up to spec ends up with you having a decent performing gun with a shitty reputation for only about $200 more than buying a quality piece to begin with.
Don't you get it? The fit and finish of Bushmaster and Delton is GTG! :confused:
I've had this discussion countless times on a local forum (in North Carolina, where Del-Ton is produced) and so many of those guys don't seem to understand what Mil-spec is.
However, someone did post a pic recently of their DT bolt that has "HPT/MPI" markings on it. He couldn't tell me if it was batch testing or per-unit testing. Also, he picture he posted of the staking was horrible. Someone else commented that they have weak extractors and they're definitely not shot-peened. I wouldn't spend that much money on a questionable gun, even if it is to support the local economy.
Exactly...Most people just don't know what they don't know. This is what infuriates me about the overpricing from companies such as Bushmaster and DPMS. They basically make their money off of people's ignorance. My first rifle I bought for myself (during the ignorant stage) was a DPMS. For what I paid for it I could've bought so much more quality at the same price.
-Jax
Personally I wouldn't buy a questionable bolt when I can buy one that is known for about 12.00 more.
Their standard upper is 5.00 less than a BCM. For that you get a questionable barrel with a 1/9 twist.
According to their website the bolts are MP tested. No where does it mention HP testing. One is worthless without the other
Their standard upper is 5.00 less than a BCM. For that you get a questionable barrel with a 1/9 twist.
Yeah the website doesn't mention it, but the bolt is marked, now like another guy said, whether that is each part or batch testing I don't know. I plan to post some pics.
I was pleased that it came with an "F" marked sight base, even though I didn't request it.
To calculate the price difference you need to factor in that Del-Ton ships with a BCG, so right there the difference is >$100. But don't get me wrong I agree, BCM is the way to go. I love my BCM carbine, and will take it to classes. But for a 20" rifle that I assembled because I got the fever to build a plinker, it isn't bad. I just have to shoot it and see how it performs.
I read a lot of mixed information on Del-Ton so I thought I would post my experience.
My first rifle I bought for myself (during the ignorant stage) was a DPMS. For what I paid for it I could've bought so much more quality at the same price.
-Jax
Yeah I hear you, I started with a Bushmaster in college :(
But now I own a BCM, and all is right in the world :D
I didn't realize that they came with a BCG. That is even more suspicious. I would love to see their certification for their testing.
Yeah the website doesn't mention it, but the bolt is marked, now like another guy said, whether that is each part or batch testing I don't know. I plan to post some pics.
I was pleased that it came with an "F" marked sight base, even though I didn't request it.
To calculate the price difference you need to factor in that Del-Ton ships with a BCG, so right there the difference is >$100. But don't get me wrong I agree, BCM is the way to go. I love my BCM carbine, and will take it to classes. But for a 20" rifle that I assembled because I got the fever to build a plinker, it isn't bad. I just have to shoot it and see how it performs.
I read a lot of mixed information on Del-Ton so I thought I would post my experience.
Gunfighter 9
02-17-11, 05:30
Exactly...Most people just don't know what they don't know. This is what infuriates me about the overpricing from companies such as Bushmaster and DPMS. They basically make their money off of people's ignorance. My first rifle I bought for myself (during the ignorant stage) was a DPMS. For what I paid for it I could've bought so much more quality at the same price.
-Jax
Well don't forget the fluff pieces which abound in every gun magazine. I have yet to see an article in one of those where they honestly evaluate a manufacturers product. Unfortunately those publications are where many who are new to the AR platform start their search. I don't remember where, but I know I saw some article in the last couple of years proclaiming what a quality product the Del-ton line was. I guess ethics and truth go out the window when your looking for advertising dollars and magazine sales.
Actually, yes, you can beat that.
Yes it is Good to Go. Good to go to the Garbage! :dirol:
ETA:
5 points to whomever remembers the reference.
Ok don't misunderstand. I'm not standing behind Del-Ton 100%, but I have been impressed with my 20" plinker upper, so far. Here are some pics of the bolt and BCG.
HPT and MPI marked
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=1707
And here is the M16 BCG
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=1708
And here is the staking compared to a LMT BCG, care to guess which is which?
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=1704
Staking looks good.
Here is the problem though.
Anyone can put a stamp on a bolt
When a company that has traditionally cut lots of corners starts to claim they are doing things right, it is easy to doubt them. If DPMS started doing everything right tomorrow and made guns on the level of BCM or Colt, it would still take a while for people to trust them because of their past.
That is true, anyone can. But in the process of my selection of a Del-Ton upper it doesn't seem like they have a reputation for total crap. And on top of that if they are willing to mark bolts accordingly I am prepared to take them at face value. But if the bolt dies an early death, I'll be using a more reputable manufacturer.
So, I am pleased so far with my purchase. And I am impressed with the little details that other manufacturers don't care for. I just will have to see how it shoots and how long the parts last. But I will give them the benefit of the doubt on a plinker build.
I've had this discussion countless times on a local forum (in North Carolina, where Del-Ton is produced) and so many of those guys don't seem to understand what Mil-spec is.I
Same here. I'm at ground zero for DPMS. Local gun forums here do not like negative comments about the brand. "The Chart" especially is like waving a red flag at a bull.
In particular they have made inroads into various law enforcement agencies where budgets are closely watched by bean counters...especially bean counters who perceive some political advantage in buying locally.
Yes it is Good to Go. Good to go to the Garbage! :dirol:
ETA:
5 points to whomever remembers the reference.
OOOOH I know, I know!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc-NHwdRmx8
:thank_you2:
C4
Same here. I'm at ground zero for DPMS. Local gun forums here do not like negative comments about the brand. "The Chart" especially is like waving a red flag at a bull.
In particular they have made inroads into various law enforcement agencies where budgets are closely watched by bean counters...especially bean counters who perceive some political advantage in buying locally.
For some reason it really bothers me that there are LEOs going into harms way with crap I would be hesitant to use at the range…
That is cheating Grant! :p
On the contrary, I suspect the majority of rifle purchasers have assumed and continue to assume that their DelTon/DPMS/Bushmaster/Olympic rifles are top shelf because their local gunshop owner recommended them and because they've put hundreds of rounds downrange every year and "never had a problem".
But yes, your average M4C reader is likely going to have a little trouble changing their impression of those rifle brands.
For some reason it really bothers me that there are LEOs going into harms way with crap I would be hesitant to use at the range…
Your average LEO is not a firearms enthusiast and doesn't know any better.
dennisuello
02-17-11, 10:23
And here is the staking compared to a LMT BCG, care to guess which is which?
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=1704
LMT is on the left.
LMT is on the left.
yep, you got it.
On the contrary, I suspect the majority of rifle purchasers have assumed and continue to assume that their DelTon/DPMS/Bushmaster/Olympic rifles are top shelf because their local gunshop owner recommended them and because they've put hundreds of rounds downrange every year and "never had a problem".
But yes, your average M4C reader is likely going to have a little trouble changing their impression of those rifle brands.
I completely agree with you. In the 5 shops around here, all I can find is DPMS and Bushmaster. But that being said, I don't think it hurts to branch out a try something new. I went Del-Ton because they seem like a company that is trying to go somewhere. And I posted in this thread because I can see proof of their intentions in my upper.
Now, they aren't a BCM, LMT or DD, but that doesn't mean they are as careless or inconsistent as DPMS or Bushmaster. I think Del-Ton can be given the benefit of a doubt for a plinker and all-around range rifle. They seem to be trying to put out a quality product, compared to other name brands, at a very competitive price. I respect that.
LMT is on the left.
Was it the taiwanese YFS bolts on the right that gave it away?
dennisuello
02-17-11, 12:04
Was it the taiwanese YFS bolts on the right that gave it away?
It's actually very easy. LMT has MIM gas key and you can see the little circle between two bolts that's left from that process.
Del-ton...another shit brand. Freedom Group should buy them to add to their collection of shitty AR makers.
There is a decidedly devious backsplash from The Chart.
Some companies are using it as a checklist for marketing purposes. This means that they need to find other ways to cut corners/costs. Softer than spec screws and pins, suspect carrier key material, incorrect MPI rejection criteria, lower than spec pressure in HPT, incorrect shot-peening method... the list goes on and on. The Chart revision that I'm working on attempts to address some of this, but these cost cutting measures are far more devious, far easier to lie about, and much harder to check. Looking at carrier key staking is easy. Getting metallurgical testing done to see what material the key is made from is another matter entirely.
Got a release date for us, Rob?
There is a decidedly devious backsplash from The Chart.
Some companies are using it as a checklist for marketing purposes. This means that they need to find other ways to cut corners/costs. Softer than spec screws and pins, suspect carrier key material, incorrect MPI rejection criteria, lower than spec pressure in HPT, incorrect shot-peening method... the list goes on and on. The Chart revision that I'm working on attempts to address some of this, but these cost cutting measures are far more devious, far easier to lie about, and much harder to check. Looking at carrier key staking is easy. Getting metallurgical testing done to see what material the key is made from is another matter entirely.
Got a release date for us, Rob?
No offense to you or Rob and all the hard work and time he puts into that stuff, but why care about what the next "Chart" will say and just buy guns everyone already knows are at the top?
No offense to you or Rob and all the hard work and time he puts into that stuff, but why care about what the next "Chart" will say and just buy guns everyone already knows are at the top?
This is a good point.
Even as the keeper of The Chart, I am constantly amazed at the fervor it causes, and how antsy people get about this brand or that brand being on it. For a standard, M4 pattern AR carbine, there are four brands I would personally consider and I would chose them based on my budget and acknowledge that there would be sacrifices for doing same. I see absolutely no reason in the universe to deviate from those brands. There are others that offer, IMHO, more than the standard M4 in terms of barrel quality, gas-tube length, or virtual redesign of the platform, but for a base model there are four.
It's actually very easy. LMT has MIM gas key and you can see the little circle between two bolts that's left from that process.
I know, it was more of a subtle jab at offshore parts being used by certain companies.
GermanSynergy
02-17-11, 12:53
For those praising Del-Ton:
Go take a 2 or 3 day carbine class from one of our Industry Professionals and get back to us on how well your carbine did.
Anyone can pop off 40 rounds at dirt clods on Maw Kettle's Farm, look lovingly at their carbine and proclaim it "good to go".
Doc Safari
02-17-11, 12:55
There is a decidedly devious backsplash from The Chart.
Some companies are using it as a checklist for marketing purposes. This means that they need to find other ways to cut corners/costs. Softer than spec screws and pins, suspect carrier key material, incorrect MPI rejection criteria, lower than spec pressure in HPT, incorrect shot-peening method... the list goes on and on. The Chart revision that I'm working on attempts to address some of this, but these cost cutting measures are far more devious, far easier to lie about, and much harder to check. Looking at carrier key staking is easy. Getting metallurgical testing done to see what material the key is made from is another matter entirely.
So it's still easier to rip people off than build a quality product, I see.
This makes it all the more important to stick with known top-tier brands and pass on the doubtful ones.
In the future, I suspect The Chart is going to have another side effect: it will become the responsibility of the manufacturer to prove he is left of chart and not just state the claim. As soon as some of the fakers are outed it will be very hard for them to sell anything to the chart enthusiasts ever again.
justin_247
02-17-11, 13:14
It seems like lots of people now assume that actual testing is being accomplished simply because a company decided to purchase themselves a laser etcher and learn how to use it.
It seems like lots of people now assume that actual testing is being accomplished simply because a company decided to purchase themselves a laser etcher and learn how to use it.
===================================
Heck, I can go to the mall and get a claw hammer laser-etched "MPI/HPT". For all we know some company's "MPI" could mean "Mary Poppins Inspected".
If these marketing schemes prove to be even somewhat true, then the quality makers will have go up on the price and include certificates with their guns to verify their inspections, metallurgy, assembly, etc. are true.
Then, these lower quality makers will buy some Certificate Maker software and start printing their own "Mary Poppins" certifications....and so on...
I reckon the end would be when some maker gets his "ISO 9000" compliance certification.
All of this will benefit the end-user BUT it will all come with a hefty price. I hope it never gets to this but the market will eventually demand it if unscrupulous marketing schemes go unchecked.
All because of The Chart...way to go Rob... :)
.
Ok this thread has gotten off topic. Commenting on the markings of a company's product is one thing, insinuating, without evidence, that companies falsify those markings is another.
I stand behind my 20" Del-Ton shooting at dirt, but I'll stand behind my BCM when shooting in a carbine class.
What do you do when BCM is sold out? :fie:
Ok this thread has gotten off topic. Commenting on the markings of a company's product is one thing, insinuating, without evidence, that companies falsify those markings is another.
I stand behind my 20" Del-Ton shooting at dirt, but I'll stand behind my BCM when shooting in a carbine class.
======================================
AMD,
OK, back on topic, I think part of the problem is most members here do not differentiate between a dirt shooter and a training rifle or a SD/HD gun.
If a gun is classified as gtg...it first should be able to suffice as a weapon you can bet your life on. Sounds like you're wanting sub-classes for GTG. GTG for dirt shooting and GTG for HD/SD and GTG for coyotes, and so on...
That is not the intention of this site. There are too many people that can only afford one rifle and will put their life on the line with their gun. Muddying their true GTG choices with sub-classes of GTG will only get someone in harm's way with a less than ideal weapon.
It is either GTG or it is not and from what I've read, DelTon is not GTG.
But maybe it's just me...
.
UCRT, thanks for the clarification. But I never classified Del-Ton as "GTG". I only wrote in response to questions posted on the first page and how I was impressed by how Del-Ton went beyond the product specifications on their website without any request on my part to offer a upper that is beyond competitors in a similar tier.
It maybe true that if limited to one rifle Del-Ton isn't the best choice, but it isn't my prerogative to either recommend or denounce a company I have no experience with. The intent of a forum is to share information and opinions. I researched Del-Ton and found many opinions, but less information. So I have been trying to share information from my experience.
Ok this thread has gotten off topic. Commenting on the markings of a company's product is one thing, insinuating, without evidence, that companies falsify those markings is another.
.
I'm inclined to agree. I'm curious what the basis is for those who made the insinuation that DelTon is falsifying and misrepresenting their testing process and perpetrating fraud.
SomeOtherGuy
02-17-11, 16:25
My AR collection includes a 2009-era Del-Ton 16" midlength kit, two Bushies, an Armalite, several Daniel Defense complete uppers, a Spike's Tactical, etc. I've also had the chance to inspect two other Del-Tons (2010 production), a Colt 6920 and various others.
The Del-Ton is a solid plinker. It is put together fairly well. I have had zero problems with the upper assembly, and only one minor problem with the parts (mag button oversized and rough). I would rate it ahead of some common brands like DPMS, and probably in the same league as Shrubbie. Cosmetically they do very well - of course that is the least important, but I think it should be noted anyway. For fun I'll probably run it in a 2-gun match sometime soon to see how it does.
So I would agree with amd's comments above. Of course, if you can only afford one rifle, or if you want a particular rifle to be top quality, I would recommend only the usual suspects (Colt, BCM, DD, etc.). But if you want a plinker for whatever reason, DTI offers a nice price on a fairly well assembled plinker.
Mystery testing is as good as no testing at all.
I'm inclined to agree. I'm curious what the basis is for those who made the insinuation that DelTon is falsifying and misrepresenting their testing process and perpetrating fraud.
I think any company, like Del-Ton, with a solid history of manufacturing crap, has the burden of proving that they are NOT perpetrating fraud, when they suddenly start to claim to be producing solid weapons.
Because of their history, if Del-Ton claimed the sky is blue and grass is green, I'd go out and look for myself.
I think any company, like Del-Ton, with a solid history of manufacturing crap, has the burden of proving that they are NOT perpetrating fraud, when they suddenly start to claim to be producing solid weapons.
Because of their history, if Del-Ton claimed the sky is blue and grass is green, I'd go out and look for myself.
Alright, thank you. But bare in mind what you said before on another thread:
"Seriously... on a 20" plinker, I'd go Del Ton. To me, money is a limited asset, and I always economize on toys. Heck, I'd even consider going Model 1 Sales for an even cheaper toy.
The 20" system is less rough on components, and more forgiving on tolerances, etc.."
and
"I gotcha. Sometimes we get locked in the "What is your life worth, anyway?" error.
Not all items we purchase have to be "the best" or even "top tier".
Last summer I bought a couple crappy guns; one in order to spend an afternoon with a pretty girl, teaching her how to shoot a gun her company will issue her downrange and one just for fun, because I always wanted one. Both had utility and were worth the money spent.
Now, that is entirely different from saying Del-Ton is as good as BCM."
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=52842
And here is the staking compared to a LMT BCG, care to guess which is which?
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=1704
LMT does not use crappy Taiwanese YFS screws.
LMT does not use crappy Taiwanese YFS screws.
Are Taiwanese YFS screws crappy? Or is it simply because it's from a foreign country?
I absolutely hate the term, but christ there's a lot of "butthurt" in this thread.
I agree with 120, but then and now. If you want a toy gun then buying from a company like Del-Ton is fine. and as long as you know what you're buying, that's fine too.
But like most of these companies, they don't identify themselves as a toy gun company. and I take issue with that. Especially when historically they are not known for producing quality sufficient to use for critical purposes.
and yes, the burden of proof is on them. Companies like this are documented liars. They state their products are "milspec" when they clearly are not, were not, and will not be. So yes, if I see them engrave some letters on a part I want to know very specifically what they think those letters mean and if they mean what we think they do I want to know exactly their procedures and criteria. HPT with a round that is only 2k PSI over the spec and MPI with only cracks as rejection, and you might as well not bother.
and for those obsessed with the Chart, I'll be asking these questions of Delton and other companies eventually.
Alright, thank you. But bare in mind what you said before on another thread:
"Seriously... on a 20" plinker, I'd go Del Ton. To me, money is a limited asset, and I always economize on toys. Heck, I'd even consider going Model 1 Sales for an even cheaper toy.
The 20" system is less rough on components, and more forgiving on tolerances, etc.."
and
"I gotcha. Sometimes we get locked in the "What is your life worth, anyway?" error.
Not all items we purchase have to be "the best" or even "top tier".
Last summer I bought a couple crappy guns; one in order to spend an afternoon with a pretty girl, teaching her how to shoot a gun her company will issue her downrange and one just for fun, because I always wanted one. Both had utility and were worth the money spent.
Now, that is entirely different from saying Del-Ton is as good as BCM."
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=52842
Indeed. The problem is, I was talking about $500 guns, there.
But when we're talking about $700 and more for the piece of steaming poo, when you can get excellence for $800, it's a different thing.
And if you're paying $700 for a carbine and putting $300 of rails and other options on it, you're making even less sense.
And if you're paying $700 for a carbine and putting $300 of rails and other options on it, you're making even less sense.
It's a Del-Ton 20" plinker, not some crazy carbine.
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=342&pictureid=1712
And for you information there is no scent of steaming poo.:D
CaptainDooley
02-18-11, 07:59
I won't say they are fraudulently not testing, but I will say this: If they are now HPT & MPI testing and their prices do not raise to a similar price to other manufacturers who do TDP level testing, then I have to assume they are using improper testing with improper rejection criteria - otherwise their cost would have gone up. This tells me that if they are testing it is merely to have another good marketing term on their product and not to actually build a better product. And that tells me all I need to know about their company.
I'm inclined to agree. I'm curious what the basis is for those who made the insinuation that DelTon is falsifying and misrepresenting their testing process and perpetrating fraud.
jklaughrey
02-18-11, 09:49
If I wanted a "toy" or "plinker" I would buy a pellet gun.
I won't say they are fraudulently not testing, but I will say this: If they are now HPT & MPI testing and their prices do not raise to a similar price to other manufacturers who do TDP level testing, then I have to assume they are using improper testing with improper rejection criteria - otherwise their cost would have gone up. This tells me that if they are testing it is merely to have another good marketing term on their product and not to actually build a better product. And that tells me all I need to know about their company.
This is a good point, but you can look at it this way: if they are performing accurate testing, or another option, if they are purchasing from their suppliers parts that have already been tested, perhaps they are, according to their business model, just able to offer a better price than other companies.
But the main point of my posting in this thread is how I was impressed by features that were not explicitly mentioned and marketed upon at all on their website. MPI & HPT are marketable terms, but not found in their item descriptions (correction: they do list MP testing). A proper "F" marked front sight base in correct for a flattop, but not specified on the product page. An M16 BCG is preferred, but again, not mentioned. Del-Ton's reputation in staking the gas key is spotty, but on mine they did a fair job.
Like I said before, I'm not standing behind them 100%. I'm just encouraged by those little features that weren't mentioned and surprised me. They were features I was prepared to do without on my plinker, but now that I see they are there I'm more pleased with my purchase.
Another way of putting it: Del-Ton surpassed my expectations.
Are Taiwanese YFS screws crappy? Or is it simply because it's from a foreign country?
Both.
Taiwan is certainly capable of producing a decent screw, but if they did it wouldn't have YFS stamped on it.
MrMilspecer
02-18-11, 21:02
My first AR was a DDM4 v4, assembeled by Daniel Defense and a good AR. I built my second lower for a .22 upper. My third was a $499 Delton Kit. The kit was complete w/ lower. I had to see what you got for under $500. I was not disapointed. Its just a plinker for friends and an extra AR to shoot. Good enough for hunting and target practice ect... Is it built as well as the Daniel Defense ? Hell no ! But I wasnt expecting it to be either. It could use an H buffer and M16 BCG but it does function as it should. (Came w/ carbine stock). For the same price as most AR .22s Im happy with mine but its definately not my GTG.
With A2 stock and houge grip
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb257/kenrabel/IMG_1495.jpg
wakeboarder4402
03-13-11, 23:40
Don't wanna hijack the thread, and didn't want to start a new one even though I did search. I was wondering however, if anyone knew who manufactures their lowers?
No idea. Why don't you call and ask them? This is from their website;
Del-Ton, Inc. uses U.S made mil-spec parts for all lower receiver parts and accessories. We proudly manufacture all of our pieces here in the U.S using the best materials available! Check out our complete lower receiver models below featuring AR 15 parts and other AR 15 lower receiver parts, a complete range of options to customize your AR-15 lower receiver! Contact us with any questions about our products or pricing – we’re here to help
I can tell you that there are a few things that stand out in the description.
Don't wanna hijack the thread, and didn't want to start a new one even though I did search. I was wondering however, if anyone knew who manufactures their lowers?
OOOOH I know, I know!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc-NHwdRmx8
:thank_you2:
C4
Haha! That made me pee myself a little. Del-ton is far from GTG.
Don't wanna hijack the thread, and didn't want to start a new one even though I did search. I was wondering however, if anyone knew who manufactures their lowers?
This might be a triviality if you are just wondering but in terms of function it matters more what their actual QC and spec are than who actually makes it.
Been talking to their reps lately.
According to their website the bolts are MP tested. No where does it mention HP testing. One is worthless without the other.
I asked her if they MP tested their bolts, ans she said the exact same thing. They said their goal was to have it done by winter of last year. Looks like they have. I do appreciate their honesty with that.
other things of interest.
-4150 barrel steel, barrels made in house now.
-m4 feed ramps on all their rifles unless requested not to.
-black extractor spring inserts
-h buffers in all their carbine and middys.
-much better staking than before.
I would really like to see how one stands up to some hard use. 1000 rounds in a weekend.
If they have made these changes, they are steps in the right direction, and are perhaps on their way to being good to go.
lifebreath
03-14-11, 16:16
Del Ton currently sources rifled barrel blanks from Mossberg. Mossberg rifles them and Del Ton profiles them in-house.
hmm, was sure she said they made them in house now, from the blank
lifebreath
03-15-11, 09:19
From the horse's mouth on another board:
10/2010
"We started switching to Mossberg slowly about 2 years ago. And yes, they are rifled by Mossberg, but profiled and chambered by us."
and,
2/2011
"Yep, we're turning them all here. The blanks are Mossburg. "
cool, gracias for the info!
The next question would, or will, be "at what point in the process are they HPT and MPI?
I intend to add DelTon to the new Chart. I guess I should get on that.
Any of the DelTon fans have an email address for a good POC over there? you can email me the contact info using the email function here.
Ask them if they are willing to show their testing certs and name the place doing it. It isn't top secret information.
The next question would, or will, be "at what point in the process are they HPT and MPI?
I intend to add DelTon to the new Chart. I guess I should get on that.
Any of the DelTon fans have an email address for a good POC over there? you can email me the contact info using the email function here.
Ask them if they are willing to show their testing certs and name the place doing it. It isn't top secret information.
All in good time, there is a process and a plan in place as regards to the Chart. :D
Rob,
With a newer version of "The Chart", maybe it would be a good idea to put a separate section for weapons that are fine for a hobbyist, but not really practical for professional use.
There's a lot of guys out there that love their Olympic Arms, DelTon, DPMS, XYZ brand or whatever. The flame wars start where someone tries to categorize one of these brands as a MIL/LE gun that is "ready for combat". All of these brands will use "milspec" as some sort of marketing term to say that they make military grade hardware. This is where "The Chart" is great for weeding out the pretenders.
For a guy that goes to the range a few times a year, shoots at cans, shoots at coyotes (or tigers, communists, or whatever); this type of quality is fine, and is actually a good thing because the more people who own ARs, the lower the costs can be for mags, furniture, etc. These guys don't need or know what quality is, but don't want to read that something they have is now total crap because "the internets" say so. Some bad quality parts "ruining" your range day is not even close to the same as a parts failure when someone is shooting at you. When a guy goes on a forum and brags about his DPMS/DelTon/Oly being the best thing out there, that makes him a dumbass.
If you are a professional user, don't trust your life to crap. If you are a hobbyist, knock yourself out.
For comedy, it's always great to read a "AR to go to war" thread on Arfcom, where the posters think that engraved dust covers, stickers on everything, and Aimpoint clones are mandatory field equipment against "zombies". Zombies? Really?
"the chart" to me is a great compilation of information. Dictating what use a certain rifle brand may be acceptable for IMO is a step in the wrong direction
Rob,
With a newer version of "The Chart", maybe it would be a good idea to put a separate section for weapons that are fine for a hobbyist, but not really practical for professional use.
There's a lot of guys out there that love their Olympic Arms, DelTon, DPMS, XYZ brand or whatever. The flame wars start where someone tries to categorize one of these brands as a MIL/LE gun that is "ready for combat". All of these brands will use "milspec" as some sort of marketing term to say that they make military grade hardware. This is where "The Chart" is great for weeding out the pretenders.
For a guy that goes to the range a few times a year, shoots at cans, shoots at coyotes (or tigers, communists, or whatever); this type of quality is fine, and is actually a good thing because the more people who own ARs, the lower the costs can be for mags, furniture, etc. These guys don't need or know what quality is, but don't want to read that something they have is now total crap because "the internets" say so. Some bad quality parts "ruining" your range day is not even close to the same as a parts failure when someone is shooting at you.
If you are a professional user, don't trust your life to crap. If you are a hobbyist, knock yourself out.
For comedy, it's always great to read a "AR to go to war" thread on Arfcom, where the posters think that engraved dust covers, stickers on everything, and Aimpoint clones are mandatory field equipment against "zombies". Zombies? Really?
This would be a HUGE mistake on Rob's part (if he did this). Why? Because at the end of the day, it would be his opinion on the subject and the EPIC BUTTHURTNESS that would happen from it would blow your mind.
Then again, maybe this is a good idea (as I like to watch train wrecks). :D
C4
This would be a HUGE mistake on Rob's part (if he did this). Why? Because at the end of the day, it would be his opinion on the subject and the EPIC BUTTHURTNESS that would happen from it would blow your mind.
Then again, maybe this is a good idea (as I like to watch train wrecks). :D
C4
Haha I think I already owe you a beer for something Grant but you just earned a second one with that.
Laughing aside, I do agree. The Chart should be a non-bias repository for information. People can then use that information to determine what product best suits them. To interject his opinion into it (even if he is right) would devalue the chart.
Haha I think I already owe you a beer for something Grant but you just earned a second one with that.
Laughing aside, I do agree. The Chart should be a non-bias repository for information. People can then use that information to determine what product best suits them. To interject his opinion into it (even if he is right) would devalue the chart.
Right. If people cannot figure out that guns with more "check marks" are going to be more reliable then maybe they should re-think this whole gun ownership thing.
C4
Here is a thread where a Delton fan posted about an AR kit, got a dose of reality about it and then became angry. Imagine if Rob stated that Delton was not fit for "duty/hard use."
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=940283&posted=1#post940283
C4
Right. If people cannot figure out that guns with more "check marks" are going to be more reliable then maybe they should re-think this whole gun ownership thing.
C4
If you do two charts, the lesser brands won't be on the same chart as the ones that matter.
This way you don't have some guy posting "my DPMS is the awesomest thing in the world".
Or just make a second chart for arfcom. Train wrecks are fun to watch...
If you do two charts, the lesser brands won't be on the same chart as the ones that matter.
This way you don't have some guy posting "my DPMS is the awesomest thing in the world".
Or just make a second chart for arfcom. Train wrecks are fun to watch...
Two charts? We will call one chart "Tier 1" and the other "Crap." I am sure that won't cause any problems. :no:
C4
Two charts? We will call one chart "Tier 1" and the other "Crap." I am sure that won't cause any problems. :no:
C4
That works, or just use a ranking system by number of checkmarks to have two groups that then divide into two charts: the ones that are up to spec and the ones that are not. This isn't about Rob's opinion, as the manufacturers have put themselves in these groups due to their materials and manufactruing process. The brands or models that aren't up to spec for professional use aren't up to spec. Period.
That works, or just use a ranking system by number of checkmarks to have two groups that then divide into two charts: the ones that are up to spec and the ones that are not. This isn't about Rob's opinion, as the manufacturers have put themselves in these groups due to their materials and manufactruing process. The brands or models that aren't up to spec for professional use aren't up to spec. Period.
The more you talk, the more I think your idea is a GREAT ONE!
Rob, follow this man's idea.
C4
I didn't mean to hijack this thread, I'll take up the subject here
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75504&page=8
I didn't mean to hijack this thread, I'll take up the subject here
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75504&page=8
Got it. THanks.
For those praising Del-Ton:
Go take a 2 or 3 day carbine class from one of our Industry Professionals and get back to us on how well your carbine did.
Anyone can pop off 40 rounds at dirt clods on Maw Kettle's Farm, look lovingly at their carbine and proclaim it "good to go".
Can I ask whats wrong with a guy wanting a fun gun to shirt dirt clods at the farm with? If that's the intended role of the gun, and a few hundred rounds a year is all you plan to shoot, and the gun is just a casual plinker, couldn't one of these Del-Ton kit's be a perfectly good gun for that purpose?
This place cracks me up sometimes. The level of snobery is sometimes unreal. I'm not trying to bash anyone so don't get me wrong. I'm sure that was not your intent with your comment. I understnad your point within the context of the conversation taking place. But one thing I have noticed is that this site tends to be the hangout for a lot of very serious shooters. Good info abounds, and there is a lot of experience here from people that know the platform and what makes a really good AR. As a result, a lot of people here seem to think of the AR platform strictly within the context of a gun for serious business. But don't dismiss the fact that a lot of casual shooters think the AR platform is pretty neaty (can you blaim them) and they want one to play with. And they come here to learn about their guns.
This sort of buyer is never going to attend a carbine class, never going to fire a shot in anger, never going to go to war, never going to carry their carbine on patrol etc. They are gonna shoot beer cans a couple of weekends a year with a gun that looks cool and is fun to shoot. If that is your intended role for the gun, I'd argue that a top tier high dollar gun is arguably a waste of money for some people.
These sort of folks come here to get some good information and guidance on there purchase and how to use it and they get their teeth kicked in. Or maybe they are excited and make a post about how happy they are with their purchase and then their post is followed by several pages where people basically imply, or explicitly say how stupid, ignorant, or cheap that person was for not ponying up a few hundred more dollars for a gun they would never fully take advantage of. I don't think there is anything wrong with being the type of guy who insists on the best. Hell if you want a BCM just for busting dirt clods there is nothing wrong with that either.
Anyway, I've owned the less expensive guns, and some high quality guns too. In fact I owned a Del-Ton and it served me quite well for my purposes. It was a fun gun for casual use and filled that role quite admirably. I knew when I bought it it was a hobby gun. I knew the difference between a true mil-spec gun and a hobby gun and I still bought it. I knew when I bought it that I wouldn't be putting thousands of rounds a weekend through it at carbine courses several times a year. Had that been my plan I would have gotten something else (in fact since then I have as I'm getting interested in doing some formal training and using the platform for HD). Anyway, fact is thats not what I needed at the time. If were in the market for a plinker again, I'd buy another Del-Ton with no regrets. And before anyone assumes I'm just cheap, I own plenty of high dollar guns, ARs and others, because paying for that level of performance was worth it to me for their intended role.
I just think when a guy says "What do you think about Del-ton/DPMS/Etc" the correct response would be to ask the intended purpose of the gun. If the guy says it's just a plinker/fun gun, it would be reasonble to say that a Del-Ton will serve them quite well. If he asks for a recomendation for a gun for serious use then the recomendations of Colt/BCM/DD/Noveske/Etc are an appropriate response. In either case, implying someone is a cheap dumbass for purchasing something like a DPMS is just snobbery. If they were planning on taking a DPMS to war, then certainly they need a serious education, but if it's for bustin dirt clods on the back fourty, well seems to me it will do just fine in most cases.
Now on the other hand, the guys that want to come on here and call top tier owners a bunch of dumbasses for wasting their money on a Noveske/Colt/DD etc when a Del-Ton is "just as good". Well those guys are genuinely ignorant dumbasses so have at'em.
Adrock1
what you use the gun for and its "intended role" are two different things.
just saying...
I agree with your post 100% if this were TOS. But, this is M4carbine.net. If he wants reassurance or validation he can go there and they will worship him.
Can I ask whats wrong with a guy wanting a fun gun to shirt dirt clods at the farm with? If that's the intended role of the gun, and a few hundred rounds a year is all you plan to shoot, and the gun is just a casual plinker, couldn't one of these Del-Ton kit's be a perfectly good gun for that purpose?
This place cracks me up sometimes. The level of snobery is sometimes unreal. I'm not trying to bash anyone so don't get me wrong. I'm sure that was not your intent with your comment. I understnad your point within the context of the conversation taking place. But one thing I have noticed is that this site tends to be the hangout for a lot of very serious shooters. Good info abounds, and there is a lot of experience here from people that know the platform and what makes a really good AR. As a result, a lot of people here seem to think of the AR platform strictly within the context of a gun for serious business. But don't dismiss the fact that a lot of casual shooters think the AR platform is pretty neaty (can you blaim them) and they want one to play with. And they come here to learn about their guns.
This sort of buyer is never going to attend a carbine class, never going to fire a shot in anger, never going to go to war, never going to carry their carbine on patrol etc. They are gonna shoot beer cans a couple of weekends a year with a gun that looks cool and is fun to shoot. If that is your intended role for the gun, I'd argue that a top tier high dollar gun is arguably a waste of money for some people.
These sort of folks come here to get some good information and guidance on there purchase and how to use it and they get their teeth kicked in. Or maybe they are excited and make a post about how happy they are with their purchase and then their post is followed by several pages where people basically imply, or explicitly say how stupid, ignorant, or cheap that person was for not ponying up a few hundred more dollars for a gun they would never fully take advantage of. I don't think there is anything wrong with being the type of guy who insists on the best. Hell if you want a BCM just for busting dirt clods there is nothing wrong with that either.
Anyway, I've owned the less expensive guns, and some high quality guns too. In fact I owned a Del-Ton and it served me quite well for my purposes. It was a fun gun for casual use and filled that role quite admirably. I knew when I bought it it was a hobby gun. I knew the difference between a true mil-spec gun and a hobby gun and I still bought it. I knew when I bought it that I wouldn't be putting thousands of rounds a weekend through it at carbine courses several times a year. Had that been my plan I would have gotten something else (in fact since then I have as I'm getting interested in doing some formal training and using the platform for HD). Anyway, fact is thats not what I needed at the time. If were in the market for a plinker again, I'd buy another Del-Ton with no regrets. And before anyone assumes I'm just cheap, I own plenty of high dollar guns, ARs and others, because paying for that level of performance was worth it to me for their intended role.
I just think when a guy says "What do you think about Del-ton/DPMS/Etc" the correct response would be to ask the intended purpose of the gun. If the guy says it's just a plinker/fun gun, it would be reasonble to say that a Del-Ton will serve them quite well. If he asks for a recomendation for a gun for serious use then the recomendations of Colt/BCM/DD/Noveske/Etc are an appropriate response. In either case, implying someone is a cheap dumbass for purchasing something like a DPMS is just snobbery. If they were planning on taking a DPMS to war, then certainly they need a serious education, but if it's for bustin dirt clods on the back fourty, well seems to me it will do just fine in most cases.
Now on the other hand, the guys that want to come on here and call top tier owners a bunch of dumbasses for wasting their money on a Noveske/Colt/DD etc when a Del-Ton is "just as good". Well those guys are genuinely ignorant dumbasses so have at'em.
Adrock1
This sort of buyer is never going to attend a carbine class, never going to fire a shot in anger, never going to go to war, never going to carry their carbine on patrol etc. They are gonna shoot beer cans a couple of weekends a year with a gun that looks cool and is fun to shoot. If that is your intended role for the gun, I'd argue that a top tier high dollar gun is arguably a waste of money for some people.
These sort of folks come here to get some good information and guidance on there purchase and how to use it and they get their teeth kicked in.
Adrock1
What kind of advice is someone looking for as far as shooting at beer cans goes? If that's what you want, why even come to a forum? Just buy the cheapest thing that looks cool and go kill beer cans. The problem is that most beer can killers aren't happy unless they can post pics and get a pat on the back from the internet. This is not the forum to come to for a thumbs up on your new beer can killer.
This is not the forum to come to for a thumbs up on your new beer can killer.
This is exactly the reason I came over here from TOS
People need to lose this thin skin, and stop attaching emotion to all the wrong things.
I don't know how much experience some of you have with dedicated enthusiast and technical forums/community websites/etc., but this place is pretty generous in the level of silliness that gets put up with compared to some other places I visit.
For example, these are from a Newbie FAQ from one of those sites:
Why are you so mean? I'm not actually mean. I just have a low tolerance for stupidity, and very little tact. I cut straight through in an effort to get to the heart of the matter, without any misconceptions. If this is something you can't handle, it's likely that this is not the site for you.
Why are people criticizing/downvoting my article? Because it sucks. Just because you think an idea is going to be great, doesn't mean it is. Get used to this.
Can you make them stop? No. Welcome to the Foundation, kids. We don't tend to pull punches. Especially if you're getting criticism from myself or Yoric. If you can't handle being told something of yours sucks, this isn't the right site for you.
Yoric is being an asshole about my totally awesome idea. What now? Listen to him, he knows what he is talking about.
But that's not the way they did it at my old site/forum/chat room/etc! You're right, it isn't. That's not a question either.
Why do you have such an attitude? Because this site is our baby. Many of us, Senior Staff and otherwise, have watched this Site grow from a single post over on /x/ to the heaving behemoth it is now. We've seen how bad it can get when people are allowed free rein to post whatever shit they want. So, now we keep it in line, to prevent our site from becoming something horrible.
I apologize for the thread hijack, but I think a LOT of these asinine arguments could be avoided if people stop viewing their purchases as their children whose honor they must rush in and protect. Learn to take some damned constructive criticism from those experienced and willing to take time out of their day to help you. And learn the culture of a community before diving in headfirst.
jklaughrey
03-15-11, 22:12
Or maybe they are excited and make a post about how happy they are with their purchase
Adrock1
Shit like this is for Facebook or Gayspace dude!
The correct response is ALWAYS "what do you want to do with the item?" This applies whether to guns, optics, load carriage, vehicles, tools, whatever. You are absolutely right, people are entitled to spend their money however they want, and if they want to shoot beer cans at the farm a cheaper brand may well be the right answer.
However, as IG correctly points out, this isn't really the site for that. this link (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=64658) may help. I think, specifically,the bullet-point assumptions are applicable here.
Now, that out of the way, there are absolutely a lot of people that join here, ask a couple of questions, buy a "top tier" AR, shoot as little or even less than the Delton owner, but think that buying a "better" gun ushers them into some cool-kids club. I hate that shit too. There is an American male phenomena wherein one tries to buy their way into the cool kids club. You see this with motorcycles, cars, golf, whatever. Many people get into an activity or buy an item looking for friends. Hence the "community" aspect at TOS where now you don't even need to own an AR. All you need to do is register and post a lot in GD and you're "one of the guys", and the other social misfits welcome you with open arms. Here it may take buying a "top tier" AR but it's much the same. TOS encourages this shit, and most of the established members here are at least ambivalent if not discourage it, but it exists all the same. I could name a dozen members this applies to off the top of my head, and 5x that amount with a couple of searches to refresh my memory.
So the "end use" does matter, but so does the environment in which the question is asked. Asking here about "lower tier" guns is going to sometimes be seen as akin to asking about the V6 on a Camaro forum. But people also need to get off their high horse and do a little introspective thinking about who and what they really are. I'll take a SHOOTER with a Delton over a COLLECTOR/POSEUR/PICTURE-POSTER with a "top tier" gun any day of the week.
NCPatrolAR
03-16-11, 07:23
For those praising Del-Ton:
Go take a 2 or 3 day carbine class from one of our Industry Professionals and get back to us on how well your carbine did.
Mine has been doing pretty well in classes over the years. :eek:
This is not the forum to come to for a thumbs up on your new beer can killer.
Excellent sigline material.
--Stuff--
The problem is that this is not "HeyIwanttoshootdirtclods.com.
M4C.net. This site caters to 3 types of people.
Military/PMC
Police
Serious minded civilians(in regards to firearms) who want to train to use their weapons in the most proficient manner possible.
With that comes a different mindset. My instructor uses a term a lot in class. "In the world we live in". By that he means the world of training we have chosen to immerse ourselves in. A part of that mindset is coming to understand that the right tools should be used for the right job.
That is the idea behind M4C. Not "Hey look at my new stick" Sure we all do that sometimes. Heck I do it a lot. But the difference is why people do it. When you see it here it is usually from people like me who are still learning. We don't do it for validation. We do it for advice.
So the questions tend to be like this:
My purpose is X. Here is what I have. What do you suggest I change to accomplish my goal?
But what we are seeing a lot of lately is:
Hey look at this gun i just picked up. Isn't it shiny? I know it is a DPMS/Del-ton/RRA but I wanted it right then and there and this is all they had. How did I do?
If you don't like the purpose or attitude of the site then by all means go to ARF.com or THR or Glocktalk. But I would suggest something different. Stick around a bit. Listen to the experienced guys. And learn.
People need to lose this thin skin, and stop attaching emotion to all the wrong things.
I don't know how much experience some of you have with dedicated enthusiast and technical forums/community websites/etc., but this place is pretty generous in the level of silliness that gets put up with compared to some other places I visit.
For example, these are from a Newbie FAQ from one of those sites:
I apologize for the thread hijack, but I think a LOT of these asinine arguments could be avoided if people stop viewing their purchases as their children whose honor they must rush in and protect. Learn to take some damned constructive criticism from those experienced and willing to take time out of their day to help you. And learn the culture of a community before diving in headfirst.
You make a good point.
adrock1, dirt shooting is just fine. So is hunting, gun games, etc, etc. There are MANY forums for this type of discussion. M4C is not geared towards dirt shooters though so people that want to discuss the fine art of shooting cans and dirt need to move to another site.
This thread gives a clear picture of what M4C is about: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70019
C4
With its tangencies, this thread is becoming another valuable tool for new members. Great work, guys.
sniperfrog
03-16-11, 11:26
I work with alot of ex-military and cops and we had a guy put together a group buy of Del-Ton kit guns. So alot of guys were asking me my opinion on Del-Ton and I told them. Then they buy them anyway.
We make pretty good money so there's no reason they couldn't spend a few hundred bucks more on something good. One guy that works as a reserve deputy on the weekends got mad at me for telling him what I thought about Del-Ton. I'm trying to help the guy out. He actually uses it as a duty gun. He also bought a High Standard AR as well, then got mad when I told him how "good" those were. For the price he paid for both he could've got a Noveske/BCM/DD with an Aimpoint.
I ended up assembling some of the lowers for guys. Some wouldn't even drop USGI mags let alone P-Mags. Alot of fit issues with the trigger groups.
I do see alot of guys that make a purchase then want someone to validate it by saying "yeah, that's a good deal, those guns are top of the line". So then when they hear the truth they feel offended.
I do see alot of guys that make a purchase then want someone to validate it by saying "yeah, that's a good deal, those guns are top of the line". So then when they hear the truth they feel offended.
Some people don't like to be told that they're wrong.... and they really hate being shown that they're wrong.
According to their website the bolts are MP tested. No where does it mention HP testing. One is worthless without the other.
http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Bolt_Assembly_p/bc1008.htm
Personally I wouldn't buy a questionable bolt when I can buy one that is known for about 12.00 more.
Their standard upper is 5.00 less than a BCM. For that you get a questionable barrel with a 1/9 twist.
I have to ask... and tried google..... what is H P Testing please?
Use the ORANGE search button on top and look for High Pressure/ Magnetic Particle Testing.
I have to ask... and tried google..... what is H P Testing please?
What kind of advice is someone looking for as far as shooting at beer cans goes? If that's what you want, why even come to a forum? Just buy the cheapest thing that looks cool and go kill beer cans. The problem is that most beer can killers aren't happy unless they can post pics and get a pat on the back from the internet. This is not the forum to come to for a thumbs up on your new beer can killer.
Exactly. And actually no apologies are needed either; this is not a "everybody that plays gets a trophy" kind of forum. This forum was started by very discriminating serious users looking for equipment of the highest quality, which incidentally, these days at least, isn't much more expensive than the more inferior equipment out there.
Maybe there ought to be an introductory banner when you come on this site that reads: "if you know nothing about the platform, don't care to learn much about the platform, and you just want validation for your hobby gun dirt clod buster, this is not the place for you".
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