View Full Version : After consideration, I went with the Taurus
Came back from the gun show with a Taurus 24/7 OSS 45acp with the long slide. My first handgun. :cool:
I wanted a SW M&P 40 or 45 with an external safety but they were $600 and I couldn't go that far. The models without the safety were about $550 but that's not what I was looking for. Also I had a problem trying to depress the slide release with my grip thumb. Just couldn't reach it and was too secluded. I couldn't "feel" it. The Taurus slide release was much longer and sticks out more.
So after looking around for a bit, I came back to the same dealer who had the Taurus line of pistols and got exactly what I was looking for, and for less than $500. Yay.:D
Please refrain from posting "Taurus = Brazilian Craptastic" and/or other similar comments. I understood that Taurus isn't "colt" or "S&W" before I made my decision and decided to take a risk anyway based on negative and positive feedback elsewhere. And besides.....this ain't the last pistol I will buy in my life. ;)
Going to break it in tommorow and see how it goes.
MarshallDodge
04-16-10, 17:07
I will step forward and say congratulations.
I am not a Taurus fan but I am curious about how yours runs. If you could shoot it for a while and give us periodic reports on how it is performing then it would give a better idea about the quality of your purchase.
And besides.....this ain't the last pistol I will buy in my life. ;)
If you need it and it fails, it may be. ;)
Not bashing Taurus, just pointing out the potential ironic twist in your logic.
varoadking
04-16-10, 18:40
If you need it and it fails, it may be. ;)
Not bashing Taurus, just pointing out the potential ironic twist in your logic.
So...what was your first handgun purchase, dood?
Most of us buy cheap crap and learn from it. Some of us never learn...
I was lucky - I bought a model 19 Smith and Wesson in 1975...
A big reason why I bought the Taurus was the fact that it's an SA/DA pistol. I like the idea of carrying a chambered pistol decocked and safety off. I don't think I can do that with the M&P line of pistols. They seem to be modeled after glocks and XD pre set trigger actions.
Otherwise, I don't know of any other semi auto pistol out there in 45acp that has more than a 10 round capacity (my Taurus is a 12rd) and has an SA/DA action.
And a striker fired SA/DA pistol too.....I never knew they existed until today. :D
ChicagoTex
04-16-10, 20:16
Otherwise, I don't know of any other semi auto pistol out there in 45acp that has more than a 10 round capacity (my Taurus is a 12rd) and has an SA/DA action.
H&K USP45 & Mark 23 (12rds)
FN FNP45 (14rds)
And a striker fired SA/DA pistol too.....I never knew they existed until today.
Walther P99 - SA, DA, and AS.
My first pistol was a Ruger P85 (gift from my Father). The first pistol I actually bought was a Beretta 92.
We all make mistakes. ;)
Just as an FYI, you could have gotten into a M&P for $460 with a $50 dollar mail rebate.
I always like to ask people what their life is worth. Mine is worth more than a 24/7. YMMV
C4
gtmtnbiker98
04-16-10, 21:27
My first pistol was a Ruger P85 (gift from my Father). The first pistol I actually bought was a Beretta 92.
We all make mistakes. ;)
Just as an FYI, you could have gotten into a M&P for $460 with a $50 dollar mail rebate.
I always like to ask people what their life is worth. Mine is worth more than a 24/7. YMMV
C4
Good point, Grant. That's one of the reasons I like HK. Although expensive, you get what you pay for.
OP, congrats on your pistol and I wish you luck. Hope you like it.
lethal dose
04-16-10, 22:23
From what I hear, the 24/7 runs good as long as it's maintained. I'd clean it like a fiend and replace springs and whatnot often.
I also understand that the Gen1 and Gen2 24/7 45acp magazines have serious feeding issues. But I've read that the Gen3 mags have no issues.
I have 2 Gen2 mags that came with the pistol. All that's needed is a follower change and it's good to go because the Gen2 and Gen3 mag bodies are the same.
I read that Taurus will mail them for free if you have older generation followers. Problem averted. Whew.....:D
Anyways, I'll still use my Gen2 mags/followers during the weekend and see what happens.
ColdDeadHands
04-17-10, 00:46
Otherwise, I don't know of any other semi auto pistol out there in 45acp that has more than a 10 round capacity (my Taurus is a 12rd) and has an SA/DA action.
You could have picked up a used HK USP 45 Variant one (SA/DA/Decocker) for around $500. Congrats on your new 24/7...let us know how it works out for you.
RancidSumo
04-17-10, 01:06
I've got a 24/7 In .40 (Ive since discovered I hate that caliber) and have had it for a while now. In about 6-8 months after I got it I put a couple thousand rounds through it with no problem BUT I cleaned it religiously and never ran it that hard. It works for a range toy but that's all I can say since Ive never done anything else with it.
*the only "problem" I've had is that I think it needs a new recoil spring and has needed one for a while now but I don't shoot it enough to care and it isn't my HD gun so I don't rely in it.
I bought a 9mm OSS last summer on impulse because I liked the grip. Its been going strong shooting nothing but WOLF. Its used as a range toy for plinking. I like shooting it enough to keep it in the stable, but for me it's by no means a carry pistol.
I always like to ask people what their life is worth. Mine is worth more than a 24/7. YMMV
C4
Amen. I tried a Taurus ONCE: then I learned.
I once had a 24/7 in 9mm. Ran 1300 rounds through it without incident. I then sold it. The last time I talked to the guy that bought it he had at lease an additional 3000 rounds through it without incident. So they can be reliable, however the reason I sold it was because I wanted something with a better track record.
I am a glock guy now. Though the M&P has sparked my interest.
John_Wayne777
04-17-10, 12:06
Dude...seriously...learn to shop around. You could have purchased an M&P for a lot less than 600 bucks.
If money is an object for you I'm puzzled as to why you would pick such an expensive caliber to shoot. It's going to make practice much more expensive. Spending an extra 100 bucks on a good 9mm pays for itself within the first 1,000 rounds of ammo you shoot from a .45.
was an auto loader the only handgun you considered? i only ask because a good solid revolver could be found for the same money. either way, i say good luck, and dont be afraid to change your mind down the road. we've all done it.
RogerinTPA
04-17-10, 14:47
All I can say is Wow. :eek:
Should have done more research Kal, as a minimum, read through the handgun forum stickies here, or started a Thread as to what you were looking for, so you could have received direct input from very knowledgeable Forum members, but you live and learn. I know most here wouldn't advocate the purchase of a Taurus firearm....ever. Enjoy it as long as you can. Hopefully, sometime in the future, you can trade or upgrade your weapon to a more reliable one as funds become available. If after a few thousand rounds you are comfortable with your selection, drive on.
Can I get you some ice for that eye, Kal?
;)
I just picked up an M&P 9mm compact. With the 50 mail in rebate it will be under $450...
Magic_Salad0892
04-17-10, 22:08
My first pistol was a Glock 17 Gen 3.
Second was a USP 9x19.
I almost owned a Taurus PT 1911, but figured I could buy a factory Colt 1911 for the same price as I'd upgrade the Taurus to a real 1911.
Plus, I'd have the Colt pony.
TheSmiter1
04-18-10, 01:19
Hope you have good luck with it. Just run it and make sure it's reliable.
I also have the urge to try a gun that is much hated - the Glock 23. We all have to try things out for ourselves sometimes. Who knows? Maybe your experience will be good.:D
Can I get you some ice for that eye, Kal?
;)
Actually, I've been ducking and dodging pretty well.:D
I'm not mad or anything at the comments. I knew exactly what risk I was taking by purchasing a Taurus first, and talking about it here second. :D
I will refrain from engaging any further discussion until I start putting rounds down range. Whether the results are poor or great, I will post them truthfully.
If I got a lemon, oh well. Having spent the tax money on something less than stellar won't affect me much. I can recuperate.
If I got a great gun, then I am happy.
BTW, 45acp practically doesn't exist here in MI. Sold out everywhere! All that's left is self defense ammo and overpriced gander mountain winchester and remington ball ammo......at about 60 cents a bullet!!!:eek: Seriously, there's 9mm and 40sw ALL OVER THE PLACE, but hardly any 45acp. I did buy 50rds of PMC 230gr ball for $24. That was the cheapest I can find after literally searching for 3 hours......wal mart, gander mountain, 2 dunhams stores, local gun shops, etc....
I should get some online....oh too bad, SOLD OUT AND NO BACKORDER. :mad:
Rayrevolver
04-18-10, 02:02
I used to pick up 100 rounds of WWB 45ACP for $30!
Here is an ok deal:
http://ltdammo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11_19_23&products_id=65
Have fun with your 24/7.
Well.
At least it's not a MAC-10.
Just came back from the range. Fired 50rds of PMC and 50rds of Federal for a total of 100rds.
I started with the PMC first and had a stove pipe the first round fired. I attribute that possibly to me not disassembling and properly cleaning the pistol prior to shooting.
However, the following 99rds after the first went out with no problem at all. Other than the first round, I had no problem with it and the "crappy" Gen 2 magazines. The mags worked as they should.
I couldn't be more satisfied right now, but there will be more to come when I get more ammo. :)
First time shooting a handgun at about 10-15 yards, lessons learned:
---standing and shooting is hard, lol.
---The slightest bit that the front site is higher or lower than the rear sight, you will have a round go either above or below the paper target. :o
---Developing a bad habit of trying to compensate for the 45's cannon-like recoil and/or pulling the trigger instead of squeezing it will result in you not hitting shit.
Can't wait 'till next time.
Littlelebowski
04-18-10, 15:21
"Cannon like?"
RogerinTPA
04-18-10, 15:29
"Cannon like?"
I was pondering that statement as well. Got a good chuckle out of it.:p
Yes, cannon-like.
Where the hell's the devil smiley when you need it. :D
should have started with a .38 or 9mm....theyre far from a cannon. but wait, so is the .45:eek: j/k...i have a suggestion for you, and i am being completely serious... go out and buy a nice .22 pistol to really put some lead down range with. its alot easier to learn fundamentals when you arent spending what you will be with that .45
I saw a 24/7 in a pistol class I was teaching this weekend. In the first 20rds, the guy had a FTE and a stuck casing that I had to punch out.
I advised the shooter that I wouldn't dig a hole with it. :)
C4
ChicagoTex
04-18-10, 16:54
I saw a 24/7 in a pistol class I was teaching this weekend. In the first 20rds, the guy had a FTE and a stuck casing that I had to punch out.
I advised the shooter that I wouldn't dig a hole with it.
Sounds like the shooter got plenty of malfunction clearance practice, at least. ;)
Congrats on the purchase! Taurus or not, have fun shooting and stay safe!
Congrats on the purchase! Taurus or not, have fun shooting and stay safe!
Thanks and I was definitely having fun yesterday!:D
.45 ammo right now, for those who don't know, is extremely scarce.
Seriously, everywhere I go has 9mm and 40sw stacked up like nobody wants them but absolutely no 45acp.
The box of pmc I bought was like $24 after tax. The box of federal I bought from an RSO at the range for $16.
I just came back from a local wal mart. 9 and 40 are on every shelf, NO 45acp what so ever. Gonna check another wal mart later.
I fired 100rds of Remington 230gr ball today and had 1 failure to feed while going through the second box.
The slide was held back with the next round parallel to the barrel with the bullets' tip at the bottom of the feed ramp. As soon as I took out the mag, the slide loaded the round. :confused:
Must have been a mag issue. IDK....
So far 200rds fired, 1 failure to eject, 1 failure to feed.
So...what was your first handgun purchase, dood?
Most of us buy cheap crap and learn from it. Some of us never learn...
I was lucky - I bought a model 19 Smith and Wesson in 1975...
My 1st was a Taurus and it is farrrrrrrrrrrrrr from crap. Steel frame made off the same machines they got from Beretta to do the licensed copies in Brazil.
Now the 40 cal alloy frame with decocker........... i dont care for it, but it's a safe queen.
I hope it runs for you. Taurus has no customer service to speak of. We had a 5 shot .38 that would bind when the trigger was pulled. It was sent back 5 times before they replaced it. And that is not BS.
Animal_Mother556
04-24-10, 20:01
I purchased the same pistol (24/7 long slide jobby) last year. Ive got about 3000 rounds of FMJs through it. Not a single malfunction. All I use it for is a range toy and I love to abuse it.
Congrats, man. Have fun with it
ColdDeadHands
04-24-10, 21:17
I hope it runs for you. Taurus has no customer service to speak of. We had a 5 shot .38 that would bind when the trigger was pulled. It was sent back 5 times before they replaced it. And that is not BS.
At least they did let you send it back. I had a Rock River Arms 1911 that had issues but they wouldn't even let me send it back to them.
I hope you enjoy your Taurus. I doubt you will have any issues. I actually like the feel of the Taurus polymers and have considered buying one just to see how it would run in a class. The only possible issue that I see is that the internals are very thin and delicate looking compared to other sriker fired pistols.
operator77
04-25-10, 03:40
Kal, don't listen to these armchair commandos. Personally I've never had anyone on this site NOT tell me something I owned was crap, from my lowliest Taurus, to my dept. issue S&W, to my Colt LE 6920. What's important is that you buy what works for you, and that you train! The more practice you get, the more rounds downrange, the more emergency action drills, the more everything, will make you a better shooter, competitor, gunfighter, what have you. Trust me, you can get by just fine without an Ed Brown 1911, if you know how to clean, maintain, and use your weapon. Besides, you can always decide later that you would like to try, or buy, something else. Whatever works for YOU.
TheSmiter1
04-25-10, 03:44
Here's an interesting question to members here:
Which would you rather own, a Taurus or a .40 caliber Glock?
Lulz. I kid, I kid. I'd take the Glock, though.
Kal, don't listen to these armchair commandos. Personally I've never had anyone on this site NOT tell me something I owned was crap, from my lowliest Taurus, to my dept. issue S&W, to my Colt LE 6920.
All "armchair commandos" are we? As someone who has fired in excess of 100,000 rounds of ammunition in my life via many weapon platforms, my knowledge here still ranks as mediocre (at best) compared to many of the others. This place has far fewer arm chair commandos that you will find just about anywhere.
As far as complaining about how tough we were on you, sounds a bit exaggerated. In fact I'd love to see you produce the post where someone takes a shot at your 6920.
operator77
04-25-10, 09:15
See safety, here's where it gets fun. You SAY you've been there done that, and very well may have. Then again, walk around any gun show and see how many guys are "former Swat/sog/sf/ranger/etc." none of us know each other, and nobodys posting pics of badges and DD214's. My point was, it's easy to tear someone down, and if your a new shooter, it's easy to get discouraged when it happens.
See safety, here's where it gets fun. You SAY you've been there done that, and very well may have. Then again, walk around any gun show and see how many guys are "former Swat/sog/sf/ranger/etc." none of us know each other, and nobodys posting pics of badges and DD214's. My point was, it's easy to tear someone down, and if your a new shooter, it's easy to get discouraged when it happens.
There is nothing "fun" to experience here. I am stating a fact, but you can dismiss me if you like, no problem. However doing so to this particular form as a whole is simply asinine.
That said, I do agree that some folks get hammered a bit too hard. Personally, I never look to demean anyone who is genuinely looking to learn or who may have picked a lesser quality firearm because they didn't have all the facts in hand. In fact I have come to the aid of quite a few over the years.
Still the fact remains that there are numerous extremely knowledgeable shooters here who's advice, while delivered a bit harshly at times, is usually solid regardless.
Kal, don't listen to these armchair commandos. Personally I've never had anyone on this site NOT tell me something I owned was crap, from my lowliest Taurus, to my dept. issue S&W, to my Colt LE 6920. What's important is that you buy what works for you, and that you train! The more practice you get, the more rounds downrange, the more emergency action drills, the more everything, will make you a better shooter, competitor, gunfighter, what have you. Trust me, you can get by just fine without an Ed Brown 1911, if you know how to clean, maintain, and use your weapon. Besides, you can always decide later that you would like to try, or buy, something else. Whatever works for YOU.
Might want to take the chip off of the shoulder, it'll weigh you down.
M4C doesn't allow hearsay "that gun is crap". If someone has first hand experience with something going tits up, we'll let you know.
I've seen many, many Taurus firearms do exactly that, from their revolvers to their semi autos. Doesn't mean that if you buy one you automatically get a craptastic special, but the chances are much higher than if you bought something like a M&P, Glock, HK, etc.
I find it hard to believe that anyone here has ever told you that your 6920 is crap, or your issued S&W (unless you're unlucky enough to be issued a Sigma or a SW99). If they have, please PM me the links to the threads where you were maligned.
No one here suggested that the man go out and dump $3K on an Ed Brown.
If someone asks for advice and then ignores it, and then experiences some issues, a little "we told you so" might be forthcoming.
Kal, don't listen to these armchair commandos. Personally I've never had anyone on this site NOT tell me something I owned was crap, from my lowliest Taurus, to my dept. issue S&W, to my Colt LE 6920. What's important is that you buy what works for you, and that you train! The more practice you get, the more rounds downrange, the more emergency action drills, the more everything, will make you a better shooter, competitor, gunfighter, what have you. Trust me, you can get by just fine without an Ed Brown 1911, if you know how to clean, maintain, and use your weapon. Besides, you can always decide later that you would like to try, or buy, something else. Whatever works for YOU.
You should be VERY careful about using such terms on here. This forum is NOT like others. You see all the yellow and blue SME and IP's running around here?? That means that they are either a Tier 1 or 2 asset, SWAT, LE, Military or someone that works in the firearms industry and is very well known for what they do.
It is hard to "train" with a gun that is unreliable. Even worse yet, it is stupid to bet your life on a gun that is known to be second string at best.
C4
I'm not going to dogpile anymore on that comment. A lot of people here know what they're talking about and even the better trained people here still have nothing compared to many others. A lot of the people on here do know each other and know each other from other respected forums. This is not like other crap places to throw around unsubstantiated comments like that. Like Grant said, you cannot train with something that is not capable of being pushed that hard because of the quality, I don't care how wet you keep the gun.
Littlelebowski
04-25-10, 15:04
Kal, don't listen to these armchair commandos. Personally I've never had anyone on this site NOT tell me something I owned was crap, from my lowliest Taurus, to my dept. issue S&W, to my Colt LE 6920. What's important is that you buy what works for you, and that you train! The more practice you get, the more rounds downrange, the more emergency action drills, the more everything, will make you a better shooter, competitor, gunfighter, what have you. Trust me, you can get by just fine without an Ed Brown 1911, if you know how to clean, maintain, and use your weapon. Besides, you can always decide later that you would like to try, or buy, something else. Whatever works for YOU.
I just searched your posts. No one criticized your 6920 nor your S&W. In fact, the 6920 and M&P .40 are highly recommended here.
Taurus weapons have poor QC. If you check the 1911forums, there's a rash of their ambi safeties falling off. Another telling fact about Taurus is that no makor department or agency has adopted them.
The guys on here that are labeled SMEs have been there and done that. There is a selection process that is detailed on this site. You need to calm down and stop taking comments directed towards an inanimate object that you own personally.
But if you would like a more hard core, military oriented forum, I recommend http://www.lightfighter.net Good place with tons of folks who have been there and done that.
But if you would like a more hard core, military oriented forum, I recommend http://www.lightfighter.net Good place with tons of folks who have been there and done that.
Lets not be bringing too many people over there, we don't need crap postings like that one.
Littlelebowski
04-25-10, 18:24
Lets not be bringing too many people over there, we don't need crap postings like that one.
Like LF can't handle it.
Touche! We haven't had a HoF contribution in a while...
Assy Mcgee
04-25-10, 23:10
Dude...seriously...learn to shop around. You could have purchased an M&P for a lot less than 600 bucks.
agreed.
....or a glock.
No glocks...
I want an external safety on my handguns. And I like the SA/DA guns.
I'm already thinking about my next handgun.:D
I want the same type of pistol I have right now, a striker fired SA/DA with a decocker. But of course a better brand.
A big reason why I bought the Taurus was the fact that it's an SA/DA pistol. I like the idea of carrying a chambered pistol decocked and safety off. I don't think I can do that with the M&P line of pistols. They seem to be modeled after glocks and XD pre set trigger actions.
Otherwise, I don't know of any other semi auto pistol out there in 45acp that has more than a 10 round capacity (my Taurus is a 12rd) and has an SA/DA action.
And a striker fired SA/DA pistol too.....I never knew they existed until today. :D
No glocks...
I want an external safety on my handguns. And I like the SA/DA guns.
I'm already thinking about my next handgun.:D
I want the same type of pistol I have right now, a striker fired SA/DA with a decocker. But of course a better brand.
I'm not tracking your logic. You want a thumb safety, yet you want to carry de-cocked / safety off?
That don't make a wee bit of sense to me.
No glocks...
I want an external safety on my handguns. And I like the SA/DA guns.
I'm already thinking about my next handgun.:D
I want the same type of pistol I have right now, a striker fired SA/DA with a decocker. But of course a better brand.
Interesting on the external safety req. Why is that?
Do you realize that DA/SA pistol generally take more skill/training/practice to shoot well (as you have a 10lbs trigger pull and 3-4lbs second pull).
C4
Might want to look at a HK USP or HK 45 then.
I'm also not exactly tracking on your logic here......I shoot/have shot a lot of DA/SA and the whole point is to get away from the need for an external safety, but what you're looking for is going to make for a pistol that is going to be harder to learn on.
GermanSynergy
04-26-10, 09:12
Kal,
Congrats on your first handgun. Now is the time to start shopping for your 2nd and 3rd. :cool:
If you are dead set on a DA/SA platform, the HK P30 is an outstanding choice.
There are some smoking deals on the M&P if you opt to go that route, and you can pick one up from Grant at an outstanding price.
I have been a DA/SA man for many years [Beretta 92F], I still like the platform. Recently I acquired a new G17 Gen 4. After much dry fire and a IDPA match this pistol is growing on me. I would suggest not ruling out the better striker fired pistols.
I'm not tracking your logic. You want a thumb safety, yet you want to carry de-cocked / safety off?
I like the options provided by SA/DA's.
I like the heavier trigger pull for its added resistance to AD's and ND's. Now I have great trigger discipline, but it doesn't have to be your finger pulling the trigger (ex: gun brushing up against something during daily activities).
Another thing I fear is getting into a situation like a traffic stop and being disarmed by an officer for his "safety" and end up getting my dick blown off because he doesn't know wtf he's doing.
I know, it's kind of like saying, I want to put chains around my tires just in case it snows in the summer. :p
It's unlikely an officer will put a bullet hole in me, but with firearms, I take no chances. SA/DA provides peace of mind.
I like the options provided by SA/DA's.
I like the heavier trigger pull for its added resistance to AG's and NG's. Now I have great trigger discipline, but it doesn't have to be your finger pulling the trigger (ex: gun brushing up against something during daily activities).
Another thing I fear is getting into a situation like a traffic stop and being disarmed by an officer for his "safety" and end up getting my dick blown off because he doesn't know wtf he's doing.
I know, it's kind of like saying, I want to put chains around my tires just in case it snows in the summer. :p
It's unlikely an officer will put a bullet hole in me, but with firearms, I take no chances. SA/DA provides peace of mind.
If you carry it, you NEED a holster that covers the trigger guard.
That prevents anything from snagging the trigger.
I like the options provided by SA/DA's.
I like the heavier trigger pull for its added resistance to AG's and NG's. Now I have great trigger discipline, but it doesn't have to be your finger pulling the trigger (ex: gun brushing up against something during daily activities).
Interesting. You do realize that the 10lbs trigger pull is not conducive to good pistol shooting right? You have a pistol that weighs well under 2lbs with a 10lbs trigger pull.
AD's and ND's are a result of poor training and focus. It doesn't matter if the pistol has a 1 ounce trigger or a 15lbs trigger.
Another thing I fear is getting into a situation like a traffic stop and being disarmed by an officer for his "safety" and end up getting my dick blown off because he doesn't know wtf he's doing.
I know, it's kind of like saying, I want to put chains around my tires just in case it snows in the summer. :p
It's unlikely an officer will put a bullet hole in me, but with firearms, I take no chances. SA/DA provides peace of mind.
Very seldom does an officer pull the gun out of your holster (FYI). So I would not worry about this and allow this un-realistic fear to drive your weapon selection.
C4
Grant, he's slowly coming around....
He started here....
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=50229
Kal.......honestly some of the issues you're worried about are actually non issues.
I'd worry about getting some training from some more experienced shooters, maintain the 4 safety rules paramount in your mind, get a decent handgun, and a decent holster (s).
Everyone starts somewhere, but I can't tell you any more strongly that you really need to start to listen to those of us who have been doing this for a couple decades or more.
ColdDeadHands
04-26-10, 15:08
He started here....
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=50229
:confused::eek::D
ColdDeadHands
04-26-10, 15:15
Grant, he's slowly coming around....
He started here....
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=50229
Kal.......honestly some of the issues you're worried about are actually non issues.
I'd worry about getting some training from some more experienced shooters, maintain the 4 safety rules paramount in your mind, get a decent handgun, and a decent holster (s).
Everyone starts somewhere, but I can't tell you any more strongly that you really need to start to listen to those of us who have been doing this for a couple decades or more.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on this, Templar.
Kal;
We all started somewhere and some of us learned the hard way. You are already a member of this great forum so why not take the easy route?!
I can't really say anything else that hasn't already been said...except that it would be wise to take the advice you are given here...you'll thank m4carbine.net later for it.
Some simple basics you can & should do:
Buy a quality
Handgun
a few spare Mags
Holster, Mag Pouch & Belt,
Ammo
Training
Grant, he's slowly coming around....
He started here....
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=50229
Yikes batman!
He had NOWHERE to go, but up after that thread. :D
C4
Grant, he's slowly coming around....
He started here....
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=50229
Had to wait to stop laughing to post how hard I was laughing.
No offense, Kal. Your getting there.
There was no way I was going to get a freakin' mac10 for carry, even if someone approved. I just wanted to see if some would take them seriously.
But who wants to carry around a steel breifcase?:D
There was no way I was going to get a freakin' mac10 for carry, even if someone approved. I just wanted to see if some would take them seriously.
But who wants to carry around a steel breifcase?:D
Take the info that's been posted already. Buy a quality weapon and holster, and do a lot of training with it. The things you worry about are moot issues.
As far as that thread... don't post stupid crap like that if you know it's stupid. Thank you.:rolleyes:
I'll tell you guys one thing, if 45acp is still hard to get by the middle of summer, a 40sw might be in order. This 45 business is irritating. Took me a week to get 550rds. I could've had more than 1,000rds of 40sw the first day dropping by any wal mart or sporting goods store around me.
I'll tell you guys one thing, if 45acp is still hard to get by the middle of summer, a 40sw might be in order. This 45 business is irritating. Took me a week to get 550rds. I could've had more than 1,000rds of 40sw the first day dropping by any wal mart or sporting goods store around me.
Should have got a 9mm ;)
ColdDeadHands
04-26-10, 19:14
Should have got a 9mm ;)
I can't find 9mm around here either...really the only caliber that's readily available is 40 S&W. No .380, 9mm, .38, .357, 45....whenever I see a box of 9mm or .45 at walmart I buy all they have. Other stores like academy have most ammo but over priced.
I just picked up two boxes at the local wal mart that has been out of 45 for about 2 weeks. They must have had least 10-15 boxes left today.
May be I'll get more later if they don't run out by Saturday. I want to put at least 200rds down range next time.
olds442tyguy
04-26-10, 21:07
While I won't try and talk you into suicide for it like most here, I do recommend saving up for another primary defense piece. Instead of cutting it in half, burning it, and urinating on it, I'd just shoot the ever loving hell out of it and have fun while you save though.
It takes time to learn, but buying an OSS isn't as big of a mistake as some here would lead you to believe. A Bryco would be a major mistake, so I say shoot the Taurus until it stops.
Hey, my first 1911 was a Llama:( But I learned what I didn't want. It truly had side of barn accuracy. Never did figure out what was wrong with it. Then I had a Charles Daley that the barrel was off on. Wouldn't feed.
I know a couple guys that have not had one problem with their Taurus. But CS is shit.
Shoot the hell out of it. Get to know the 1911 platform, then figure out what you would really like to have.
Some don't like Kimber. The Eclipse I have has NEVER had a malfunction.
My preference is Colts. They just feel better to me.
And my favorite cheap 1911 is my RIA GI. It runs great after adjusting the extractor.
ChicagoTex
04-26-10, 21:50
Hey, my first 1911 was a Llama But I learned what I didn't want. It truly had side of barn accuracy. Never did figure out what was wrong with it. Then I had a Charles Daley that the barrel was off on. Wouldn't feed.
I know a couple guys that have not had one problem with their Taurus. But CS is shit.
Shoot the hell out of it. Get to know the 1911 platform, then figure out what you would really like to have.
Some don't like Kimber. The Eclipse I have has NEVER had a malfunction.
My preference is Colts. They just feel better to me.
And my favorite cheap 1911 is my RIA GI. It runs great after adjusting the extractor.
The OP bought a 24/7, not a PT1911...
Congrats on your hand gun purchase. I hope that the weapon will serve you well and that you'll stay safe.
Please keep us updated on how the weapon works out for you, I'm very curious.
I like the options provided by SA/DA's.
I like the heavier trigger pull for its added resistance to AD's and ND's. Now I have great trigger discipline, but it doesn't have to be your finger pulling the trigger (ex: gun brushing up against something during daily activities).
Another thing I fear is getting into a situation like a traffic stop and being disarmed by an officer for his "safety" and end up getting my dick blown off because he doesn't know wtf he's doing.
I know, it's kind of like saying, I want to put chains around my tires just in case it snows in the summer. :p
It's unlikely an officer will put a bullet hole in me, but with firearms, I take no chances. SA/DA provides peace of mind.
I'll offer myself up as cannon fodder and suggest you feel up a CZ. I suggest a CZ as they come with all your preferences. CZ still offers most models in metal frames, which helps reduce the recoil more than a polymer gun. If you're having trouble staying on paper with your .45 at the range, you can probably forget about it in a stressful situation. Shoot a metal framed pistol in 9mm and you won't have much recoil to deal with.
I too like DA/SA weapons and would like feedback from forum members of other manufacturers that still make metal framed guns, that fit this bill. (Please don't berate me for not liking polymer - we're all entitled to shoot what we feel most comfortable with.)
My first pistol was a Ruger P85 (gift from my Father). The first pistol I actually bought was a Beretta 92.
We all make mistakes. ;)
If I may show my ignorance, is there something specifically wrong or flawed in the Beretta 92? The only handgun I've personally owned so far is a Sig P226, which I've since sold. I was planning on getting a Beretta 92 some time in the future.
If I may show my ignorance, is there something specifically wrong or flawed in the Beretta 92? The only handgun I've personally owned so far is a Sig P226, which I've since sold. I was planning on getting a Beretta 92 some time in the future.
I don't think anything is really wrong with them, but not ideal for CCW (size and weight) and I personally dislike DA/SA guns.
There are of course much worse guns out there.
C4
I don't think anything is really wrong with them, but not ideal for CCW (size and weight) and I personally dislike DA/SA guns.
Gotcha. I assumed that where the comment was going, as I've yet to see any sort of validated complaints about the M9/92, aside from its size. I'd be using it for a secondary on carbine courses, so duly noted.
Just for the personal knowledge, what about HK's in general? Any comments about carrying them? I'm about to get my carry license in June and I've been looking at HK for a CCW. Any specific models to lean towards?
Sorry for the off-topic nature of my question; this thread just seems to have a lot of good info.
Gotcha. I assumed that where the comment was going, as I've yet to see any sort of validated complaints about the M9/92, aside from its size. I'd be using it for a secondary on carbine courses, so duly noted.
Just for the personal knowledge, what about HK's in general? Any comments about carrying them? I'm about to get my carry license in June and I've been looking at HK for a CCW. Any specific models to lean towards?
Sorry for the off-topic nature of my question; this thread just seems to have a lot of good info.
I like a lot of HK pistols. I personally carry an HK P7M8 for CCW. The P30 and 45's are very good weapons as well.
C4
Gotcha. I assumed that where the comment was going, as I've yet to see any sort of validated complaints about the M9/92, aside from its size. I'd be using it for a secondary on carbine courses, so duly noted.
I just bought a Beretta 90-Two in .40, which I am very happy with so far. However living in NJ, there was no CCW consideration involved.
Yes, they are a full sized handgun, but some seem to complain about the ergonomics also. As a person with larger hands, I find the gun very comfortable to shoot.
Regarding the DA/SA and external safety issue, maybe I am just too accustomed to such platforms because personally I am fine with both.
Another thing I fear is getting into a situation like a traffic stop and being disarmed by an officer for his "safety" and end up getting my dick blown off because he doesn't know wtf he's doing
Not a very likely prospect. Despite the misinformation superhighway most street cops are very familier with all manner of firearms and spend a significant time training. You should spend some time getting good training instead of buying more pistols. I suspect you will be looking at new pistols after some good training anyway;)
I'd be using it for a secondary on carbine courses, so duly noted.
.
I think that the 92 would be a very viable choice for your needs. I have medium sized hands, but always enjoyed shooting them and never had a problem making quals. It sounds like you intend to use it for exactly what it was made for. I would check out the M9A1 if you can find one.
I got a bad ass tip yesterday about when the local wal marts get supplied with ammo.
Today was one of the days so I hit up 3 wal marts this morning.
Tons and tons of ammo, NO 45ACP AT ALL.:mad:
I regret buying a 45.
I saw 9mm federal going for 20 cents a round.:(
20 cents....
20 cents....
20 cents....
Tons and tons of ammo, NO 45ACP AT ALL.:mad:
I regret buying a 45.
I saw 9mm federal going for 20 cents a round.:(
Here you go Kal, these guys are great. No, it's not $.20 per, but they are fairly decent prices considering to the current market.
Also, they will have it to you very quickly and all 3 brands shown are in stock. Just a humble suggestion.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.php/cName/pistol-ammo-45-acp
Or you can do better per round here if you want volume, seems like he has 2 types in stock.
http://ammoman.com/index.htm
Regarding the DA/SA and external safety issue, maybe I am just too accustomed to such platforms because personally I am fine with both.
The de-cocker/safety whateverthe****itreallyis is just in the wrong place. Snags on everything, and turns on and off seemingly at random. Not acceptable in a serious weapon, imo.
And, oh yeah, it serves no real and necessary purpose. Kind of the appendix of the handgun world.
safetyhit, both sites are inferior to wal mart. :D
I get wal mart 45 for pretty much 33 cents a round, $16 box.
Seriously, how the hell does wal mart make money?:D
Gotcha. I assumed that where the comment was going, as I've yet to see any sort of validated complaints about the M9/92, aside from its size. I'd be using it for a secondary on carbine courses, so duly noted.
Just for the personal knowledge, what about HK's in general? Any comments about carrying them? I'm about to get my carry license in June and I've been looking at HK for a CCW. Any specific models to lean towards?
Sorry for the off-topic nature of my question; this thread just seems to have a lot of good info.
For HK you going 9MM 40S&W or 45?
safetyhit, both sites are inferior to wal mart. :D
I get wal mart 45 for pretty much 33 cents a round, $16 box.
Seriously, how the hell does wal mart make money?:D
Bult buying power. With how many stores?
The de-cocker/safety whateverthe****itreallyis is just in the wrong place. Snags on everything, and turns on and off seemingly at random. Not acceptable in a serious weapon, imo.
What specifically does "snags on everything" mean? On what type of gear or what type of instance did you personally experience this repeatedly? I have holstered several Berettas hundreds of times over the years without such incident, ever.
But there is always that chance I did something wrong, of course. Please kindly clarify for all of us here.
Not a very likely prospect. Despite the misinformation superhighway most street cops are very familier with all manner of firearms and spend a significant time training.
Not in my experience. I have been pulled over twice and officers asked for my pistol. Both occassions I was carrying a 1911. I had to get the pistol back from both guys and unload them because they had zero understanding of a cocked and locked pistol. As far as the training goes; 99% of the officers in my area come into my range the week of their yrly qualification. That is the only training they do and that is the once a yr cleaning their pistols get. I find more civilians in training classes these days than those in law enforcement.
John_Wayne777
04-28-10, 18:21
What specifically does "snags on everything" mean? On what type of gear or what type of instance did you personally experience this repeatedly?
The accidental safety engagement issue is a real problem. At the Langdon class last year I had to do a TRB because I forgot to actually load my gun prior to running the drill, and I ended up doing 4 TRB's in a row because I had inadvertently engaged the safety while manipulating the slide. It took that long for me to figure out what was going on.
Ernie, ever the professional instructor, used it as a teaching point.
"...and THAT'S why we made the G model Beretta."
Slide mounted safeties are less than ideal for that reason. Under stress it can take time for somebody to figure out that the safety is engaged...time they might not have in a gunfight.
It can be overcome with training, but if someone doesn't specifically train to deal with that problem it can take time for their brain to catch up with what is going on.
The OP bought a 24/7, not a PT1911...
Sorry, too many hours.
ChicagoTex
04-28-10, 20:15
Sorry, too many hours.
No problem, bud. I know what that's like!
Not in my experience. I have been pulled over twice and officers asked for my pistol. Both occassions I was carrying a 1911. I had to get the pistol back from both guys and unload them because they had zero understanding of a cocked and locked pistol. As far as the training goes; 99% of the officers in my area come into my range the week of their yrly qualification. That is the only training they do and that is the once a yr cleaning their pistols get. I find more civilians in training classes these days than those in law enforcement.
Uh, so you are saying the officers gave your weapon back to you so you could unload it for them? Really?
And, oh yeah, it serves no real and necessary purpose. Kind of the appendix of the handgun world.
I personally don't like decockers, but I'm not scared of manually decocking a hammer on a loaded chamber either. From my reading on multiple forums, a lot of people are uncomfortable manually dropping the hammer on a live round. A decocker serves a very real purpose for them.
ChicagoTex
04-28-10, 21:30
I personally don't like decockers, but I'm not scared of manually decocking a hammer on a loaded chamber either. From my reading on multiple forums, a lot of people are uncomfortable manually dropping the hammer on a live round. A decocker serves a very real purpose for them.
A lot of us recognize the reality that we may have to decock our carry weapons after a life or death confrontation where the adrenaline is flowing, the fine motor skills have gone to shit, and our hearts are going at 160bpm. With a decocker, we have a 100% chance of decocking safely, without it... the percentage is much lower.
Call me crazy, but I think I'll stick with 100% success instead of rolling the dice for my own ego.
What specifically does "snags on everything" mean? On what type of gear or what type of instance did you personally experience this repeatedly? I have holstered several Berettas hundreds of times over the years without such incident, ever.
But there is always that chance I did something wrong, of course. Please kindly clarify for all of us here.
My first experience with the Beretta, me and a bunch of other troops had to enter a TOC. I swear, each and every one of us snagged our M9s on the camo netting draping near thed entrance. It was comical, except we noticed that some of the M9s had their appendix thingy changed from "safe/decocked/hammerblocked" to "fire"
The appendix item in mention sticks out, regardless of holster, and provides a fun point of unpredictable Fail. And is hard to reach to manipulate when you want it to.
A lot of us recognize the reality that we may have to decock our carry weapons after a life or death confrontation where the adrenaline is flowing, the fine motor skills have gone to shit, and our hearts are going at 160bpm. With a decocker, we have a 100% chance of decocking safely, without it... the percentage is much lower.
Call me crazy, but I think I'll stick with 100% success instead of rolling the dice for my own ego.
Why are you decocking? This isn't a Wild West Single action revolver; it's a modern pistol.
First of all, the only reason you think you NEED a decocker is that you choose to shoot DA/SA.
Second, if it were a safety instead, you'd just flick safety "on".
Third, if you had a striker fired piece, you wouldn't think of decocking, so why stick with DA/SA?
People who need the DA to avoid accidentally shooting people shouldn't HAVE a gun.
DA/SA and decockers are a solution in search of a problem, imo. In the gun world SA w/safety and/or striker fired are the solution.
ChicagoTex
04-29-10, 00:05
Why are you decocking? This isn't a Wild West Single action revolver; it's a modern pistol.
First of all, the only reason you think you NEED a decocker is that you choose to shoot DA/SA.
Second, if it were a safety instead, you'd just flick safety "on".
Third, if you had a striker fired piece, you wouldn't think of decocking, so why stick with DA/SA?
People who need the DA to avoid accidentally shooting people shouldn't HAVE a gun.
DA/SA and decockers are a solution in search of a problem, imo. In the gun world SA w/safety and/or striker fired are the solution.
While I do primarily tend to carry single-mode, no safety guns (Glocks, M&Ps, Walther PPS, etc) I still like, trust, and shoot extremely well with SIG and H&K DA/SAs and I'm definetely not alone. Simply dismissing decockers out of hand because "you shouldn't be running DA/SA" is crazy and WASN'T your original point to begin with. I'll quote you again and see if you can stay on point this time:
I personally don't like decockers, but I'm not scared of manually decocking a hammer on a loaded chamber either. From my reading on multiple forums, a lot of people are uncomfortable manually dropping the hammer on a live round. A decocker serves a very real purpose for them.
You didn't say "I think DA/SAs are antequated and shouldn't be used" (that at least would be a half-ass defensible position), you said "decockers are for pussies. Manly men like me aren't afraid to decock manually".
There's nothing wrong with running a DA/SA in this day and age if it suits your preferences and purposes, but if you do, a decocker is a huge plus (which, I'd venture to guess, is probably why pretty much every DA/SA available today is available with a decocker).
Uh, so you are saying the officers gave your weapon back to you so you could unload it for them? Really?
Two seperate occassions. One stop was a seatbelt violation. I thought the poor guy was going to shoot himself. I told him to just give me the thing and I would unload it before he shot himself. The other was a speeding violation. I felt sorry for the second guy. I was on my way to a class with John Farnum and had primaries and backups in case anything went down: two ARs, two 870s, two 1911s, two snub nosed .38s and tons of ammo. After running all the numbers, he gave everything back to me with the most disgusted look on his face. He just couldn't believe that somebody running around with all that firepower didn't have any warrants. He wound up not giving me a ticket, but he did lecture me on how dangerous it was to carry my pistol cocked.
ChicagoTex
04-29-10, 00:17
but he did lecture me on how dangerous it was to carry my pistol cocked
Don't you just love how someone who couldn't unload the gun himself is qualified to tell you that it's unsafe? :rolleyes:
Magic_Salad0892
04-29-10, 00:38
If it wasn't dangerous why would you have it?
While I do primarily tend to carry single-mode, no safety guns (Glocks, M&Ps, Walther PPS, etc) I still like, trust, and shoot extremely well with SIG and H&K DA/SAs and I'm definetely not alone. Simply dismissing decockers out of hand because "you shouldn't be running DA/SA" is crazy and WASN'T your original point to begin with. I'll quote you again and see if you can stay on point this time:
You didn't say "I think DA/SAs are antequated and shouldn't be used" (that at least would be a half-ass defensible position), you said "decockers are for pussies. Manly men like me aren't afraid to decock manually".
There's nothing wrong with running a DA/SA in this day and age if it suits your preferences and purposes, but if you do, a decocker is a huge plus (which, I'd venture to guess, is probably why pretty much every DA/SA available today is available with a decocker).
Thanks for the redirect. I am still forming my opinion on the issue, and didn't mean to say the latter.
What I SHOULD have said, is that,
"the more I think about the issue, I'm wondering in what exact situations a decocker is superior to striker fired, engaging a safety, or just unloading the darned gun?"
I'm starting to wonder what niche the decocker mechanism actually fills.
ChicagoTex
04-29-10, 06:37
"the more I think about the issue, I'm wondering in what exact situations a decocker is superior to striker fired, engaging a safety, or just unloading the darned gun?"
I'm starting to wonder what niche the decocker mechanism actually fills.
It helps to first recognize that striker fired handguns weren't nearly as common, or trusted, as little as 10 years ago. Second you must consider that a very large part of handgun development is driven by law enforcement sales.
With those in mind you can start to see the advantages of the decocked and safety off carry pattern. It provides a gun with a hefty 12-14lb first shot resistance (to keep twitchy officers from accidentally discharging their weapons under stress), while at the same eliminating the need to disengage a safety, which can be forgotten or fumbled under stress. After an officer (or anyone else) fires their weapon or, for some foolish reason, cocks it in advance and is finished shooting, they can quickly, reliably, and safely hit the decocker and return the weapon to the same "safe" mode they've trained to draw with and return it to their holster, or keep their weapon handy in case they anticipate future use.
Naturally, in the past decade law enforcement agencies have become more and more accepting of no safety, single-mode striker fired handguns based on three realizations: 1. plastic (framed) guns really do hold up well and are reliable, 2. this new-fangled no-hammer system really is reliable, and 3 (probably most important). the huge increase in "accidental" discharges from officers switching to Glocks is because officers were taught piss-poor gun-handling (if they were taught anything at all) and not because the design is inherently dangerous.
Since then, the trend in the development of new handguns has clearly been towards the striker fired pattern.
Returning to your original question again, the advantage of a decocker vs a safety is, once again, some people have shown a tendency to forget or fumble their manual safety under stress (though I wholeheartedly believe this can be overcome with nominal training) and engaging the safety on a gun that you normally carry decocked and off-safe changes your manual of arms next time you draw.
Unloading the gun makes you unable to fight, which is something I refuse to personally do until a bunch of boys in blue show up to cover me no matter how dead and/or absent the threat that caused me to shoot may appear.
As for whether a DA/SA is BETTER than a striker fired, that's really a matter of personal taste. Quantitatively striker fired guns get the nod, but there's so much more to a gun than it's method of firing and a DA/SA that fits your needs that you shoot really well is better than a striker fired that doesn't suit you for whatever reason.
Case in point: I'd much rather have a SIG P226 over a Ruger SR9. The Ruger may have the arguably better firing mechanism, but the SIG's the much better overall gun.
And as for me personally, I've yet to encounter a striker fired gun so out of this world that I'll give up my beloved SIGs and H&Ks, even if I find myself more frequently carrying single-mode striker guns.
John_Wayne777
04-29-10, 07:06
I personally don't like decockers, but I'm not scared of manually decocking a hammer on a loaded chamber either. From my reading on multiple forums, a lot of people are uncomfortable manually dropping the hammer on a live round. A decocker serves a very real purpose for them.
For the record, attempting to manually lower the hammer on a live round is a pretty bad idea.
Decockers are far safer. On the Beretta 92, for example, engaging the decocker actually rotates the transfer button out of the way of the hammer leaving a hunk of steel in its place...which means it is physically impossible for the hammer to transfer any energy to the firing pin. The firing pin safety is also active under those circumstances as an extra layer of prevention.
If someone attempts to Mel Gibson the hammer manually, they bypass all of those safety systems and run a much higher risk of screwing it up.
Decockers are safe, reliable, and effective. Should you decock with the muzzle of your weapon pointed at your newborn's head? Of course not...but that's more about not pointing a firearm at a baby than about the possibility of a discharge.
"the more I think about the issue, I'm wondering in what exact situations a decocker is superior to striker fired, engaging a safety, or just unloading the darned gun?"
I'm starting to wonder what niche the decocker mechanism actually fills.
It fills the niche of having an idiot proof method of decocking the hammer on a DA/SA gun. Attempting to do that manually is asking for disaster. Think about it: Making someone actually pull the trigger when they don't want the gun to go bang? Asking them to intercept the hammer and retard its fall enough to stop the weapon from going bang?
...and expecting all this to happen under stress? With the muzzle pointed in a safe direction?
Recipe for disaster. It's much more sensible to have a little switch that you flick in an instant that renders the weapon unable to fire while dropping the hammer safely. Using the 92 as an example, I have yet to hear of ANY Beretta 92 that has gone off when the decocker was used. Ditto the S&W 3rd generation guns which have a similar safety arrangement.
The reason heavy DA triggers exist is because crap happens, especially with handguns. Because firearms are handled by human beings there is always the possibility that someone will do something stupid with them. Even very well trained human beings can have a blonde moment and do something stupid with a lethal weapon that will result in tragedy. As an example, someone on one of the gun boards recently posted a video of himself being shot in the body armor by his Lt, who was using an M9. They did this as a joke....and in the dark. DA triggers do not make idiocy impossible, it simply provides a larger margin of error for those moments when somebody gets stupid or for when Murphy does his thing and gets dangly bits of gear in the trigger guard.
I personally carry a striker-fired handgun with a ~ 5 pound trigger and no manual safety on a daily basis...but I do so knowing that I'm giving up certain things to gain the advantages of that arrangement.
My first experience with the Beretta, me and a bunch of other troops had to enter a TOC. I swear, each and every one of us snagged our M9s on the camo netting draping near thed entrance. It was comical, except we noticed that some of the M9s had their appendix thingy changed from "safe/decocked/hammerblocked" to "fire".
So we went from "snaggs on everything" to they snagged on camo netting. I would say that while still relevant, this hardly qualifies as "everything". But I do get the point, and apparently there can be issues during intensive training as mentioned also.
That said, you spawned quite an informative discussion. I have never been fully aware of the mechanics of the decocker until JW posted his info. It always made me very uneasy to have the hammer drop like that on a live round, so I would often do so manually (which is what I was used to with most of my other handguns anyhow).
Of course I figured they had a specific reason for setting it up that way, but it was really more a mental thing not knowing exactly what was happening when the hammer dropped. But after reading this I will do so with a much higher degree of confidence.
So I suppose a thanks is in order for the informative turn in the discussion.
It helps to first recognize that striker fired handguns weren't nearly as common, or trusted, as little as 10 years ago. Second you must consider that a very large part of handgun development is driven by law enforcement sales.
With those in mind you can start to see the advantages of the decocked and safety off carry pattern. It provides a gun with a hefty 12-14lb first shot resistance (to keep twitchy officers from accidentally discharging their weapons under stress), while at the same eliminating the need to disengage a safety, which can be forgotten or fumbled under stress. After an officer (or anyone else) fires their weapon or, for some foolish reason, cocks it in advance and is finished shooting, they can quickly, reliably, and safely hit the decocker and return the weapon to the same "safe" mode they've trained to draw with and return it to their holster, or keep their weapon handy in case they anticipate future use.
Naturally, in the past decade law enforcement agencies have become more and more accepting of no safety, single-mode striker fired handguns based on three realizations: 1. plastic (framed) guns really do hold up well and are reliable, 2. this new-fangled no-hammer system really is reliable, and 3 (probably most important). the huge increase in "accidental" discharges from officers switching to Glocks is because officers were taught piss-poor gun-handling (if they were taught anything at all) and not because the design is inherently dangerous.
Since then, the trend in the development of new handguns has clearly been towards the striker fired pattern.
Returning to your original question again, the advantage of a decocker vs a safety is, once again, some people have shown a tendency to forget or fumble their manual safety under stress (though I wholeheartedly believe this can be overcome with nominal training) and engaging the safety on a gun that you normally carry decocked and off-safe changes your manual of arms next time you draw.
Unloading the gun makes you unable to fight, which is something I refuse to personally do until a bunch of boys in blue show up to cover me no matter how dead and/or absent the threat that caused me to shoot may appear.
As for whether a DA/SA is BETTER than a striker fired, that's really a matter of personal taste. Quantitatively striker fired guns get the nod, but there's so much more to a gun than it's method of firing and a DA/SA that fits your needs that you shoot really well is better than a striker fired that doesn't suit you for whatever reason.
Case in point: I'd much rather have a SIG P226 over a Ruger SR9. The Ruger may have the arguably better firing mechanism, but the SIG's the much better overall gun.
And as for me personally, I've yet to encounter a striker fired gun so out of this world that I'll give up my beloved SIGs and H&Ks, even if I find myself more frequently carrying single-mode striker guns.
That post was full of win.
So what you're saying is that there is both an objective and subjective reality concerning pistols (which is true of all machines) and that the subjective reality of DA/SA requires a safety to seem safe to users and responsible parties.
As well as the objective reality that adding complexity to a pistol operating system can prevent unskilled users from using it unintentionally.
So we went from "snaggs on everything" to they snagged on camo netting. I would say that while still relevant, this hardly qualifies as "everything". But I do get the point, and apparently there can be issues during intensive training as mentioned also.
That said, you spawned quite an informative discussion. I have never been fully aware of the mechanics of the decocker until JW posted his info. It always made me very uneasy to have the hammer drop like that on a live round, so I would often do so manually (which is what I was used to with most of my other handguns anyhow).
Of course I figured they had a specific reason for setting it up that way, but it was really more a mental thing not knowing exactly what was happening when the hammer dropped. But after reading this I will do so with a much higher degree of confidence.
So I suppose a thanks is in order for the informative turn in the discussion.
Actually, the vignette was just one in a series. I carry a 92FS right now for work, and cuss it from time to time.
The problem I have is that I discover new information using a style which often come off hostile via internet forum medium. It's fun to do in person, esp. if you are known to each other, but often falls flat via the internets.
John_Wayne777
04-29-10, 11:37
Naturally, in the past decade law enforcement agencies have become more and more accepting of no safety, single-mode striker fired handguns based on three realizations: 1. plastic (framed) guns really do hold up well and are reliable, 2. this new-fangled no-hammer system really is reliable, and 3 (probably most important). the huge increase in "accidental" discharges from officers switching to Glocks is because officers were taught piss-poor gun-handling (if they were taught anything at all) and not because the design is inherently dangerous.
Much good thinking in your post, sir, but I would point out one other critical factor you overlooked:
Cost.
When Glock shows up and basically offers you free guns saving a big chunk of your budget, suddenly evaluations about what is "inherently dangerous" start to get reconsidered.
That post was full of win.
So what you're saying is that there is both an objective and subjective reality concerning pistols (which is true of all machines) and that the subjective reality of DA/SA requires a safety to seem safe to users and responsible parties.
I wouldn't go quite that far. Sig pistols, for instance, have no manual safety. They have a decocker only. Of the widely used DA/SA guns in the US issued by agencies, as far as I know all of them have a decocker because we've come to realize that manually decocking the hammer is asking for trouble. Some guns like the CZ series have no decocker (or at least didn't for a long time) but allow you to engage the safety while the hammer is cocked, essentially creating a "cocked and locked" gun. H&K was probably the most forward thinking of all the gun companies in this arena as they invented modular trigger systems that can be configured in any way you can possibly conceive of.
Weapons like the M9 and the 3rd generation Smith pistols were products of a pre-Glock time period. They were designed around the conventional wisdom of the time. In 1982 if I had gone around to departments with a handgun that had a 5.5 pound trigger and no manual safety they would have laughed me out of the building because everybody knew back then that it was WAY too light of a trigger and that people would shoot themselves or others with it. It had to have a heavy DA trigger and it had to have a safety, bless-god, or the average patrolman would just end up shooting himself.
That mindset started to change when this Austrian company showed up with a plastic gun that came in a box that literally looked like something your wife could buy at a tupperware party. They staged dramatic demonstrations and offered insanely low prices thanks to the costs savings they had realized through smart designs and an economized production process. So there's this gun you can throw in the mud that will still go bang when you pick it up....AND IT'S DAMN NEAR FREE. This gave people in police departments who have to deal with budget all kinds of wood...so much so that they managed to convince themselves that a 5.5 pound trigger and no manual safety (and a disassembly procedure that requires pulling the trigger) wouldn't be so bad and that people wouldn't shoot themselves.
Well, people did, in fact, shoot themselves. The immutable laws of physics appear not to give a damn about the economics because a 5.5 pound trigger is still easier to screw up with than a 14 pound trigger. Still, the benefits of the weird looking handgun (including cost) outweighed the "Glock leg" factor well enough to end up in a lot of police holsters. The more the design was adopted, the more legitimacy the weapon and the 5.5 pound trigger and no manual safety had in the eyes of other departments. "Well insertbignamedepartmenthere is using them, so they can't be unsafe, right?"
Today we have a very different understanding of what is "safe" in a handgun than we did in 1982. I know I'm dating myself considerably, but I remember when the 1911 could NEVER be carried by patrolmen because the trigger was too light and that cocked hammer made it totally unsafe. Maybe SWAT guys could carry the 1911....MAYBE...but that's about it. The trigger was just too damn light and the gun was totally unsafe!! Now one of the most popular LE handguns has a trigger that is about as light as a 1911's trigger and the weapon has no manual safeties whatsoever whereas the 1911 had two of them that had to be disengaged before you could use that light trigger.
My, how time changes.
The military at large is stuck more or less with the M9 because there seems to be little appetite within the military to go through a new pistol program. The M9 is a product of the pre-Glock era thinking, although I think whatever comes along to replace the M9 will probably have a manual safety similar to the one available on the M&P pistols. When the new military sidearm actually happens, it will be a product of that day's thinking...probably highly modular, plastic frame, adjustable grips, etc.
While I do primarily tend to carry single-mode, no safety guns (Glocks, M&Ps, Walther PPS, etc) I still like, trust, and shoot extremely well with SIG and H&K DA/SAs and I'm definetely not alone. Simply dismissing decockers out of hand because "you shouldn't be running DA/SA" is crazy and WASN'T your original point to begin with. I'll quote you again and see if you can stay on point this time:
You didn't say "I think DA/SAs are antequated and shouldn't be used" (that at least would be a half-ass defensible position), you said "decockers are for pussies. Manly men like me aren't afraid to decock manually".
There's nothing wrong with running a DA/SA in this day and age if it suits your preferences and purposes, but if you do, a decocker is a huge plus (which, I'd venture to guess, is probably why pretty much every DA/SA available today is available with a decocker).
You directed your comments at the wrong member Tex. You also read way too much into my statement. I didn't mean to imply that anyone is a pussy, or less of a man, for using a decocker. If anything, most members here would call me a pussy due to my great disdain for, and refusal to own, striker fired pistols.
I think we all need to remember that we post comments based on our own experiences, lifestyle, occupation, etc.. I'm a civilian and keep my gun loaded the majority of the time. I manually decock it on live rounds less than 30 times per year. When I do, I make sure the gun is pointed in a safe direction. I also prefer to have a safety so "cocked and locked" is an option.
That being said, if I was a lawman, I probably would want a gun with a decocker. Being an LEO is a whole different ballgame than being a civilian. As you stated previously, a decocker is a nice safety feature when you're jacked up on adrenaline and your mind is racing. As much as I hate striker fired pistols, I'd be begging for a Glock if I were shipping out for Iraq/Astan tomorrow. Again, it's all based on an individual's needs, experiences, occupation, etc.. I don't think there are any right or wrongs - just what's best for the particular job and handler.
threeheadeddog
04-29-10, 20:54
First this post is strictly from an IMHO and should be taken as just that, my opinion and not necessarly universal or even shared by many.
The idea of why a decocker has already been answered by a couple and done quite well, but the question of why DA/SA seems to be limited to a long DA pull not being good for shooting.
I personally went DA/SA (or am currently in a DA/SA testing phase if you will) after a few years of shooting first striker fired guns then going strictly cocked-and-locked for both defense and competition. I am constantly being told by the guys in competition that my trigger pull is too "long" to be fast(even though I always place high and have been for a while now), but if you look at it a DA trigger is no longer in actual use than a single action one. You first start with you finger out of the trigger guard and end with the gun going off. When you learn to press out the gun with the trigger moving this becomes a non issue. I actually switched to DA/SA after seeing my draw times drop from 1.7ish to 1.5ish on average with my bests being somewhat lower. The benifit of the DA pull, to me, is that I can keep the trigger moving out of the holster. When I was shooting a 1911 with a 2.5# trigger I felt too much reluctance to get my finger near the trigger untill everything was much closer to perfect.
I am told that DA/SA requires more practice. Honestly I dont know, because I have always done a fair amount of dry-fire practice anyway.
So my answer to why DA/SA is that for me it is faster out of the holster with less finger fatigue after that.
ChicagoTex
04-29-10, 21:53
The benifit of the DA pull, to me, is that I can keep the trigger moving out of the holster.
This concept scares me, as I'm a big believer in keeping my finger off the trigger until my sights are on-target and I'm ready to fire. I guess if you keep it pointed in a safe direction it works for speed-games, but I absolutely wouldn't recommend it for defense on the theory that your consistent partial press of the trigger as it clears the holster will get murphied up under stress and the gun will fire when you don't want it to.
ChicagoTex
04-29-10, 21:54
You directed your comments at the wrong member Tex.
Oops :o:o:o
You also read way too much into my statement. I didn't mean to imply that anyone is a pussy, or less of a man, for using a decocker. If anything, most members here would call me a pussy due to my great disdain for, and refusal to own, striker fired pistols.
I think we all need to remember that we post comments based on our own experiences, lifestyle, occupation, etc.. I'm a civilian and keep my gun loaded the majority of the time. I manually decock it on live rounds less than 30 times per year. When I do, I make sure the gun is pointed in a safe direction. I also prefer to have a safety so "cocked and locked" is an option.
That being said, if I was a lawman, I probably would want a gun with a decocker. Being an LEO is a whole different ballgame than being a civilian. As you stated previously, a decocker is a nice safety feature when you're jacked up on adrenaline and your mind is racing. As much as I hate striker fired pistols, I'd be begging for a Glock if I were shipping out for Iraq/Astan tomorrow. Again, it's all based on an individual's needs, experiences, occupation, etc.. I don't think there are any right or wrongs - just what's best for the particular job and handler.
Fair enough.
First this post is strictly from an IMHO and should be taken as just that, my opinion and not necessarly universal or even shared by many.
The idea of why a decocker has already been answered by a couple and done quite well, but the question of why DA/SA seems to be limited to a long DA pull not being good for shooting.
I personally went DA/SA (or am currently in a DA/SA testing phase if you will) after a few years of shooting first striker fired guns then going strictly cocked-and-locked for both defense and competition. I am constantly being told by the guys in competition that my trigger pull is too "long" to be fast(even though I always place high and have been for a while now), but if you look at it a DA trigger is no longer in actual use than a single action one. You first start with you finger out of the trigger guard and end with the gun going off. When you learn to press out the gun with the trigger moving this becomes a non issue. I actually switched to DA/SA after seeing my draw times drop from 1.7ish to 1.5ish on average with my bests being somewhat lower. The benifit of the DA pull, to me, is that I can keep the trigger moving out of the holster. When I was shooting a 1911 with a 2.5# trigger I felt too much reluctance to get my finger near the trigger untill everything was much closer to perfect.
I am told that DA/SA requires more practice. Honestly I dont know, because I have always done a fair amount of dry-fire practice anyway.
So my answer to why DA/SA is that for me it is faster out of the holster with less finger fatigue after that.
I understand what you mean. And other than trigger pull length, the other criticism that is used regarding DA/SA is regarding the DA to SA transition problem.
I carry a Glock and before that I carried a cocked and locked USP, but I have done a bit of shooting with DA/SA (and I learned to shoot seriously on DA revolvers), and just as with the trigger pull length issue, to me the pitfalls of the DA to SA transition are also exaggerated.
So as you explained, the DA is used in the context of the trigger prep as you drive the front sight toward the target and your arms extend into the isoscles; although I don't place my finger on the trigger and start prepping the trigger until my gun hand meets and completes a good grip with my support hand (in front of and below my chin), the extension phase should give you plenty of time to properly prep a DA trigger, again from the moment that your strong hand meets your weak hand and you start your extension to the target. When you are in your version of full extension with the front sight on the target and you have broken the shot, you are then in recoil, then tracking your front sight, and releasing only to trigger reset, and then riding the trigger reset from then on.
So the DA and SA trigger modes are used in such a different context of gun manipulation that I really don't see why some people see DA/SA transition as so inherently difficult.
So I'll argue that the DA/SA difficulty is not so much to do with a DA to SA transition problem, nor with the length of trigger pull (after all safe action/M&P/LEM triggers are initially shot from a long trigger pull, and then from reset too) but rather to do with the problem of people sort of naturally looking for the crutch of shooting with overly light/short triggers and not being prepared to allow themselves to learn to shoot with heavier ones which can be just as, or even more practicable. Although prepping a 2.5# trigger on a 1911 during extension and not getting a premature discharge is arguably a greater skill than properly using a 10 lb DA trigger :D
All this talk got me thinking, I think I would like a DAO pistol with a heavy trigger pull. If the trigger pull is anything like my 24/7 OSS on double action, I would have no problem with it.
Either something like that or a Springfield XD, where the trigger can't be pulled unless the grip safety is engaged.
Probably should go out and rent some. :D
Magic_Salad0892
04-29-10, 23:38
Glock 17 or Glock 21 with 8 lbs. trigger connector.
Or H&K USP.
I had to get the pistol back from both guys and unload them because they had zero understanding of a cocked and locked pistol. As far as the training goes; 99% of the officers in my area come into my range the week of their yrly qualification. That is the only training they do and that is the once a yr cleaning their pistols get
Not to go too far off topic but seriously:
"99%" and how do you conclude that. "..the only training they do" and the "Once a year cleaning they get " ???. I am glad your logging these statistics.
As for the Traffic stops and LE giving you the gun to clear during the stop, that's right up there with your statistical anaysis of LE. :rolleyes:
Magic_Salad0892
04-30-10, 05:29
Glock 17 or Glock 21 with 8 lbs. trigger connector.
Or H&K USP.
^^^^Now how the hell do you double post 6 hours apart? :D:p
PrivateCitizen
04-30-10, 11:08
^^^^Now how the hell do you double post 6 hours apart? :D:p
He uses a Taurus computer … ;)
He uses a Taurus computer … ;)
wtf!? I giggled loudly. :D
Animal_Mother556
04-30-10, 19:23
Not to go too far off topic but seriously:
"99%" and how do you conclude that. "..the only training they do" and the "Once a year cleaning they get " ???. I am glad your logging these statistics.
As for the Traffic stops and LE giving you the gun to clear during the stop, that's right up there with your statistical anaysis of LE. :rolleyes:
I have to agree with his analysis. MOST of the officers at my department don't fire a single round through their Glock until a week or a DAY before qual time. I have been able to get a couple of them to come out and shoot with me at random times, but it seems that they don't want to spend their free time shooting, OR their own money on ammo. Some of these guys shoot 100 rounds per year through a pistol. 50 rounds of practice, and 50 rounds to qualify. It's sad. I'm NOT saying that ALL officers are like this...but I will definitely believe someone when they say the cops in their area are like that.
As far as them not knowing how to clear pistols...I have witnessed officers in my department forget how to open the action on their 870 shotguns. So, for them to not be able to clear a random pistol is not that crazy to me.
So, for them to not be able to clear a random pistol is not that crazy to me.
I agree about the clearing part, apart from the handing back the loaded weapon during a stop....I seriously doubt there is anyone quite that stupid on the road these days.
If you think 99 out of 100 of your co-workers fit that analysis, I suggest you look for a new Department. :D
Magic_Salad0892
05-01-10, 04:30
How did I double post 6 hours apart?!
My computer is a ****ing Lorcin. :(
Outside of Barney ****ing Fife, I cannot for the life of me imagine an officer returning a loaded weapon to a suspect during a stop.
I was not there so I sure can't say it didn't happen.
So far as rounds down range, it is sad that departments don't have the budget for more range time. Our department went several months without funding for ammunition. We bought our own. It's a small department and our Chief is very concious of proper training and how important it is for liability reason if nothing else.
We hit the range once a month at a minimum.
I agree about the clearing part, apart from the handing back the loaded weapon during a stop....I seriously doubt there is anyone quite that stupid on the road these days.
If you think 99 out of 100 of your co-workers fit that analysis, I suggest you look for a new Department. :D
Sorry you feel that way. But one was Houston PD and the other was a Harriss County constable. And yes, I was exaggerating the 99%. But I would say that it is realistically in the the high 80s to low 90s. Incidentally, those were the only two officers that even wanted to see my pistol during a traffic stop.
Just came back from the range.
Fired 200rds, 100rds of Federal and 100rds of WWB.
Had two failure to feeds out of 200rds. 1 was from WWB, the other was from Federal. Not ammo related. The first FTF was the round before the last round. The second FTF was the last round in the mag. Both instances, the round was lodged perpendicular to the barrel with the bullet just about to enter the chamber. I think you might call it a "bolt over", or in this case a "slide over"....whatever.:D
I was using two mags but don't remember if the FTF's happened in the same mag or both.
So far 400rds fired and 4 failures. 1 stovepipe FT-Eject, and 3 FT-Feeds.
My gun has a 1% failure rate so far. Good or bad?
Also, I suck at shooting. I was shooting a 20-25 yard target and was blowing the wooden target-stand apart. Embarrassing....
My groupings had to have been like 12 MOA.
Then I started shooting steel targets at around 25-30 yards. Was doing OK........then I missed 10rds in a row.http://www.easternuswx.com/bb/public/style_emoticons/default/facepalm.png
Why are you shooting so far out if you aren't even hitting the target?
Why are you shooting so far out if you aren't even hitting the target?
I figured it was a decent distance for pistol shooting. The steel gongs are not to be moved so I had to shoot that far out.
edit: Most of the rounds are hitting paper, mostly to the upper left of the bullseye. It's like a vertical pattern. Then there's the occasional rounds that hit below or above the paper, knocking out the wooden supports.
Littlelebowski
05-01-10, 15:27
Start out at about 7-9 yards or so and make sure you can group first. Recommend the 3x5 card drill (http://pistol-training.com/drills/3x5-card-drill).
Just came back from the range.
Fired 200rds, 100rds of Federal and 100rds of WWB.
Had two failure to feeds out of 200rds. 1 was from WWB, the other was from Federal. Not ammo related. The first FTF was the round before the last round. The second FTF was the last round in the mag. Both instances, the round was lodged perpendicular to the barrel with the bullet just about to enter the chamber. I think you might call it a "bolt over", or in this case a "slide over"....whatever.:D
I was using two mags but don't remember if the FTF's happened in the same mag or both.
So far 400rds fired and 4 failures. 1 stovepipe FT-Eject, and 3 FT-Feeds.
My gun has a 1% failure rate so far. Good or bad?
Also, I suck at shooting. I was shooting a 20-25 yard target and was blowing the wooden target-stand apart. Embarrassing....
My groupings had to have been like 12 MOA.
Then I started shooting steel targets at around 25-30 yards. Was doing OK........then I missed 10rds in a row.http://www.easternuswx.com/bb/public/style_emoticons/default/facepalm.png
1% failure rate is pretty bad...
i'd say .1% (1 out of 1000) is more in the acceptable range.
out of 7000+ rounds through my glock 19 i've had only 3-4 stoppages that weren't ammo related. i traced them back to a faulty magazine. been smooth sailing since i took that one out of the mix.
Sorry you feel that way. But one was Houston PD and the other was a Harriss County constable. And yes, I was exaggerating the 99%. But I would say that it is realistically in the the high 80s to low 90s. Incidentally, those were the only two officers that even wanted to see my pistol during a traffic stop.
If that statement is true, then Houston PD and Harriss County Constables need a wakeup call.
The 1911 has been around for 100 years. Any officer that would hand a loaded weapon back to a suspect to unload it deserves the consequences.
Constables are another story all together. Kentucky still has them and they are nothing but want to be cops that either retired as L.E.O. or couldn't make the cut.
Hey guys. What is an appropriate lube/grease/ to put onto the friction points of a steel slide and polymer frame?
Littlelebowski
05-03-10, 17:00
WeaponShield, FP10, Militec, Mobil 1, TW25, any of the above and many others.
Fired 150rds of Federal today and had 3 failure to feeds.
Same like last time, round gets lodged perpendicular to the barrel.
I think it's a combination of a bad mag, which I have marked now, and a steep feed ramp. The questionable mag has a really stiff follower/spring and feels grity and sticky when you are putting in rounds in it at about 8+ rounds. Will check it out later.
Did you disassemble and clean the mags when you got the pistol? Most mags (especially SIG mags) are coated with a preservative on the inside that makes them hard to load and gum up the movement of the followers. Clean the mags, then try again. If you get another 3 mis-feeds in 150 rounds it is time for Gunbroker.
DocCasualty
05-12-10, 17:00
Just ran across this excellent site while looking for some AR info. While awaiting activation of my forum account, I ran across this interesting and informative thread.
My first pistol that I purchased almost 20 years ago and still own is a Taurus PT99. I have been very happy with this pistol and over thousands of rounds I've had a couple of stovepipes, probably related to ammo. If I based my opinion on Taurus on this pistol alone, I would rate them excellent. What I'm coming to conclude after reading threads like this over time is that this likely was/is one of their best designs and perhaps QC was better then too. At the time I purchased it, I was looking at a Beretta M92. A gunsmith/retailer I respect very much felt the Taurus was actually the better of the two pistols at that time and certainly a better bargain. The frame mounted decocker/safety is clearly superior and I agree with others in this thread who fault the slide mounted feature on the M9/92; not sure what Beretta, an excellent mfgr of firearms was thinking there.
Maybe I just got lucky, I don't know. I haven't owned any other Tauri and the only personal negative I know of is a latch spring breaking on a friend's .357 Mag (don't recall the model), which has happened to my Ruger Vaquero too, and Taurus fixed it with a reasonable turn around time, as did Ruger with mine. However, everybody seems to have plenty of horror stories as evidenced here, so I guess I would be cautious too at this point with Taurus.
That said, my ideas have also changed over time about defensive pistols. As others, much more experienced and in the know than me on this forum have already said, it boils down to what you use this pistol for and what you are comfortable with. My PT99 remains in my mind an excellent HD weapon and that's where it lives. 9mm remains a great choice in my mind (and I'm very impressed with the tolerance and wisdom I have seen here at M4C re: "caliber wars"), combined with high capacity, DA/SA (yes, it is a matter of training and does provide a certain safety margin) and the de-cocker feature all fit the bill quite well. Admittedly, the combined safety function is superfluous. It's too big of a pistol for carry but at the time I got it, that wasn't much of an option anyway as a civilian before the "shall issue" days.
In the mid-90's I bought a P220 as I wanted a .45ACP. Excellent piece, wonderfull fit and finish and truly a tack driver. Hadn't shot it in awhile, took it out two weeks ago and punched a big raggedy hole in the black at 7 yards and made a little stuffed animal somebody left at the 25 yard line dance around for fun. Just discovered that .45ACP isn't so widely available these days in the local stores but Dunham's had some so I added to my stash. Cost of ammo for training, more limited availability of ammo these days and the kick the OP is experiencing probably all make .45 a less desirable choice for you to learn with but the US Army did it for years and it sounds like you might be making headway so, go for it. But you may be further ahead with another pistol/caliber choice. I really don't find much difference between shooting .45ACP and 9mm in a full-sized combat pistol, so your perception of recoil will improve. When it come to compact or sub-compact pistols, recoil will always be a bigger issue in follow-up shots with .40 and .45, even if isn't bothersome.
I guess I'm still a little conflicted about caliber choice but am mainly in the camp that anything between 9mm and .45 is fine. For carry, I decided that 9mm was the best for me and I bought a Glock 26 a few years back. For me, this is the perfect balance of needed power, capacity and concealibility. I'm thinking the next pistol I buy will be a Glock. Funny thing is, when I got into pistol shooting nearly 20 years ago, an ex-Army Major I knew (think he was into some kind of Spec Ops) found out I was looking into buying a pistol and learning to shoot said, "get a Glock". When I said I wanted to research it he told me had already done the research. You know, after I got into shooting this G26 I think I know what he meant. I'm glad I learned to shoot with a DA/SA and understood at that time why most I sought advice from recommended a revolver in .357 but if I was going to recommend one pistol that somebody wanted to learn on and have for HD, it would probably be a G17, or probably a G19 if they were only going to buy one pistol with thoughts of CCW.
I recommend to the OP as someone else mentioned that you should try to start out your target shooting at probably 5 yards and work on basic pistol shooting technique. For defensive shooting, it's doubtful you really need to go beyond 9-10 yards. Save 25 yards for when you feel comfortable, worked out the glitches and want to hone target skills.
I hope this pistol works out for you and if it doesn't, look at it as an opportunity to buy another firearm!
Yesterday I stripped the pistol, cleaned the oil/carbon build up with paper towel, and then applied lithium grease on the frame rails and slide. I also disassembled both mags, one of which is suspect, and cleaned them out, specifically smoothing out the sides of the follower and the inside of the mags.
Today I fired 150rds of Federal. No failures/malfunctions.
So far....700rds fired. 1-FT-Eject and 6 FT-feeds. 1% failure rate.
So far....700rds fired. 1-FT-Eject and 6 FT-feeds. 1% failure rate.
Don't feel bad, my M&P had 3 FTExtracts in the first 300 rounds.
Another great day at the range.
150rds of federal fired, 1 FT-Feed.
850rds total so far, 1 FT-Eject, 7 FT-Feeds. <1% failure rate.
I was doing great shooting the 20+yard steel targets today. My technique is getting better and better with every trip.
Another great day at the range.
150rds of federal fired, 1 FT-Feed.
850rds total so far, 1 FT-Eject, 7 FT-Feeds. <1% failure rate.
I was doing great shooting the 20+yard steel targets today. My technique is getting better and better with every trip.
You know that's not normal right? Like this really shouldn't be acceptable by anyone's standards for a serious use gun. If you want to look at it as percentages, then that's fine. When I look at it, it seems like every range trip you have, you get a malfunction. which to me seems like every time you use the gun, it malfunctions. What guarantee do you have that this thing won't fail you when you REALLY need it?
I'm not trying to rain on your parade.... I'm just saying.
Assy Mcgee
05-23-10, 15:16
After consideration, I went with the Taurus
:eek:
I'm not trying to rain on your parade.... I'm just saying.
I completely understand. This whole thread speaks for its self.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm still not done shooting it. Who knows what might happens in the next 1,000rds.
I completely understand. This whole thread speaks for its self.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm still not done shooting it. Who knows what might happens in the next 1,000rds.
This is with ball ammo, correct? Have you tried it with HPs?
This is with ball ammo, correct? Have you tried it with HPs?
Yes with ball ammo. Have not tried HP's yet, which I should be doing, but HP 45acp is lots of $$$$$.
Fired 150rds today, all federal ball ammo.
3 ft-feeds.
1,000rds total, 1 ft-eject, 10 ft-feeds total.
Before shooting today, I switched the followers between the two mags and it didn't make a difference. The bad one I marked is still acting up, and I did get a ft-feed with the "good" one. I think both mags are ****ed but one is always stiff or "sticky" when loading with rounds.
Another thing about the failure to feeds, I'm pretty sure the feed ramp is way too steep. But I can't compare it because I don't have any other handguns.
At this point, I think I'm done updating in this thread until I hit the 2,000rd mark.
Curious if you have fired any hollowpoints through this thing yet.
Curious if you have fired any hollowpoints through this thing yet.
Nope not yet, but I don't think it will do well based on what I've seen.
Not sure if this post would be considered on topic or not. However, today I picked up my new Taurus PT92AF for detailed testing and evaluation. I began the first part of the test today. The testing will be logged both in text and pictures and hope to have a complete write up within a month.
I heard so much bad about the Taurus name that I wanted to see for myself. So far... more reliable than my M&P45 was out of the box. :confused:
Anyway.. OP: good luck with your Taurus and keep us posted!
"Nope not yet, but I don't think it will do well based on what I've seen. "
I think you should. Hollow point is what 99.9% of non-military duty and self defense loads consist of. If this weapon only lives on the square range than a consistent diet of ball might suffice but off of the range you are going to want something else. If you have a 1% failure rate with ball, the easiest feeding ammo there is, then you might really start reconsidering your purchase. Have you looked at the FNP-45?
At least he got a .45. One hit with a 45 will tear a man in half. :)
John_Wayne777
05-29-10, 20:00
You should definitely try at least a box of the HP ammo you want to use in the weapon...especially if it is exhibiting the reliability problems you've seen so far.
Have you looked at the FNP-45?
Yes, I've been doing some research on the FNX-FNP handguns. I haven't handled them yet though. I think if the time came to sell my Taurus, I would be hitting two birds with one stone by purchasing a higher quality weapon but also uses a more common round like 40sw. I'm getting tired of not being able to find 45 locally. 40sw is not only more available but also a bit cheaper in stores and online.
You should definitely try at least a box of the HP ammo you want to use in the weapon...especially if it is exhibiting the reliability problems you've seen so far.
I'll see what I can do next weekend. As far as I know, not all HP's are created equal. So I'm going to have to do some searching.
I'm getting tired of not being able to find 45 locally. 40sw is not only more available but also a bit cheaper in stores and online.
This may have been answered previously, but why are you opposed to 9mm
ChicagoTex
05-29-10, 21:55
Not sure if this post would be considered on topic or not. However, today I picked up my new Taurus PT92AF for detailed testing and evaluation. I began the first part of the test today. The testing will be logged both in text and pictures and hope to have a complete write up within a month.
I heard so much bad about the Taurus name that I wanted to see for myself. So far... more reliable than my M&P45 was out of the box.
The PT92 isn't representative of the full Taurus experience, as it's a Beretta design made on old Beretta tooling. Admittedly, you are subjecting yourself to Taurus poor QC, but the product is likely to be better anyway because of the aforementioned reasons.
The OP bought a "true" Taurus, one designed, manufactured, and QCed entirely by Taurus.
DocCasualty
05-29-10, 23:54
Fired 150rds today, all federal ball ammo.
3 ft-feeds.
1,000rds total, 1 ft-eject, 10 ft-feeds total.
Before shooting today, I switched the followers between the two mags and it didn't make a difference. The bad one I marked is still acting up, and I did get a ft-feed with the "good" one. I think both mags are ****ed but one is always stiff or "sticky" when loading with rounds.
Another thing about the failure to feeds, I'm pretty sure the feed ramp is way too steep. But I can't compare it because I don't have any other handguns.
At this point, I think I'm done updating in this thread until I hit the 2,000rd mark.
As your primary problem has been FTFs, have you considered polishing the ramp? Might just be the fix you need.
I wish threads like these were posted more often. Very interesting.
The PT92 isn't representative of the full Taurus experience, as it's a Beretta design made on old Beretta tooling. Admittedly, you are subjecting yourself to Taurus poor QC, but the product is likely to be better anyway because of the aforementioned reasons.
The OP bought a "true" Taurus, one designed, manufactured, and QCed entirely by Taurus.
I was actually just talking about that with a buddy. I figured that the bad rep could be due to pistols that were 100% designed by them... Where as the PT92 and PT1911 do not fall into that category. Interesting thread though.
As your primary problem has been FTFs, have you considered polishing the ramp? Might just be the fix you need.
My M&P45FS had the same problem when I got it.. FTF like crazy. Polished the chamber and ramp.... GTG worth a try! :D
I was actually just talking about that with a buddy. I figured that the bad rep could be due to pistols that were 100% designed by them... Where as the PT92 and PT1911 do not fall into that category. Interesting thread though.
Trust me, the PT1911 is not aging well. Now that it is getting shot a lot, the QC/CS problems are cropping up with regularity. Add to that the increase in prices for them, and I'm not seeing it.
Check out some of the 1911 forums to get an idea what's up with them.
As your primary problem has been FTFs, have you considered polishing the ramp?
I think the polished ramp is one of the Taurus 24/7 pro/OSS design features. I'm pretty sure they advertise that it has a polished ramp. All the while it was my understanding that pistols are supposed to have a polished feed ramp.:confused:
Before every trip, I scrap off the accumulated carbon on the feed ramp and polish it with cloth/paper towel until it's reflective again.
ChicagoTex
05-30-10, 11:51
I think the polished ramp is one of the Taurus 24/7 pro/OSS design features. I'm pretty sure they advertise that it has a polished ramp. All the while it was my understanding that pistols are supposed to have a polished feed ramp.
All polish jobs are NOT created equal, even amongst the same model gun from the same manufacturer.
I'm curious as to how these handguns that need polish jobs will fare after some high rough count. All my handguns get a layer of carbon/deposits on their feed ramps anyway, after I've shot a lot of rounds through them. It seems to me that any decrease in friction gained from polishing would be gradually negated as the gun began to get dirty.
I don't think I could trust my life with a handgun that needed a mirror polish on the feed ramp and chamber for it to feed reliably.
Kal,
Is this your primary defensive handgun? It seems to be like this has become more or less a "test" item at this point. Especially, since you've only been shooting ball through it. If money is tight, and you're experiencing reliability issues, why continue to sink money into this handgun? All that money you're using to buy .45 ammo for this gun, could be spent on ammo and practice/training on something that will work with better reliability. When you're forced to start looking at feed-ramp angles and coefficients of friction, it's time to move on unless you're keeping it simply for analysis purposes. This thread, especially the latter half, has left me bemused.
I'm curious as to how these handguns that need polish jobs will fare after some high rough count. All my handguns get a layer of carbon/deposits on their feed ramps anyway, after I've shot a lot of rounds through them. It seems to me that any decrease in friction gained from polishing would be gradually negated as the gun began to get dirty.
Ive put 1300 through the M&P45 w/o cleaning or lube since I took the pics of the polish job I did... No Failures.
The carbon does not build up where the rounds slide up the ramp.. guess whatever carbon sicks gets pushed off easily by the next round... Duno... works for me though.
Ive put 1300 through the M&P45 w/o cleaning or lube since I took the pics of the polish job I did... No Failures.
The carbon does not build up where the rounds slide up the ramp.. guess whatever carbon sicks gets pushed off easily by the next round... Duno... works for me though.
Was your gun not feeding reliably before you polished the feed ramp? My M&P has a noticeable amount of carbon on the ramp after a lot of shooting. Maybe not "built up" but it's there, and my gun also continues to function. I was more commenting on handguns that WON'T feed reliably at all without a polish job.
I also don't doubt that yours works for you, but I'd be leery of a modern handgun that needed that kind of work.
Ummm, logic man here...
If you have that fine carbon build up, that means the bullet nose isn't going anywhere near your ramp. I'm just an old airyplane mechanic and all, but how would polishing something that obviously has no interaction with the bullet nose improve operation?
Was your gun not feeding reliably before you polished the feed ramp? My M&P has a noticeable amount of carbon on the ramp after a lot of shooting. Maybe not "built up" but it's there, and my gun also continues to function. I was more commenting on handguns that WON'T feed reliably at all without a polish job.
I also don't doubt that yours works for you, but I'd be leery of a modern handgun that needed that kind of work.
The gun would not feed. That's why I did the work that I did to it, which was more than just polish the ramp, but that was part of it. For more info and pics see the link to the thread below.
Also... I just looked at the carbon build up... It is very minimal in the center, you can still see the shine through the carbon, however the sides where the round does not contact there is build up.
120mm.... Logic man :D If there was no contact with the feed ramp... They would not have one, there would be no need for it. But i get what your saying... and yes there is contact.
Link to Thread
Finished my M&P45 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=664261#post664261)
got exactly what I was looking for, and for less than $500. Yay.
So, OP, now that you've actually sent some rounds downrange, do you feel that your money was well spent and that you got exactly what you were looking for?
So, OP, now that you've actually sent some rounds downrange, do you feel that your money was well spent and that you got exactly what you were looking for?
A direct, straight forward question. Excellent.
The answer is yes, it was what I was looking for, a full size 45 caliber handgun with a safety switch.
Is it reliable? I'd say so with ball ammo, but others say no it isn't. I haven't put any hollow points through it so we'll see how it goes later. I think this is the only factor in which if the failure rate was anywhere near 10% or higher for ball ammo, I would've regretted my purchase.
Does it make a good concealed weapon? I can confidently say no. I feel that it's too long at 8 inches(no jokes please). Then again, I didn't have concealed carry on my mind when I was looking for a handgun.
I have no regret so far. That may change, but as of right now, I'm statisfied.
I'll say one thing right now, if it fails more more with hollow points than with ball ammo, it will have to go.
RancidSumo
06-03-10, 20:08
In my experience, mine ran fine with hollow points as well. About half of the rounds I fed it were hollow points. Like I said though, I'm not sure how it would run if ran hard. You might want to try a class or something before trusting your life to it. Take my advice for what it is worth though, advice from someone with hardly any experience.
On a related note, in you quest for a DA/SA gun, you might want to try one first. I shot my brothers 90-TWO 9mm today and that first DA pull really throws me off. After a while it wasn't so bad but id rather go with a SA only gun and not have to worry about it. This coming from a fellow relative "newbie".
High Tower
06-04-10, 08:40
Where in MI do you live? We have 45 ammo in stock - not like in the pre BO days, but enough.
On topic, I would say the failure rate is a bit too high. I'm glad you like the gun, but I would think there are better options out there. I may have missed it, but is this a carry gun or something for fun?
I know I said no more updates until I hit 2k rounds, but today I fired WWB hollow points.
I fired 100rds of federal fmj with absolutely no issues.
The 50rd box of WWB HP's gave me seven FT-Feeds, round impacting bottom of the feed ramp. 7 out of 50rds.......
I don't think I can trust this pistol for serious use.
Sorry to hear that, but I'm very glad that you found out at the range. I continue to be amazed by the people who don't even try a magazine full let alone 200 rounds of defense ammo to verify satisfactory operation.
On the other hand, sending it bact to the manufacturer is always an option. I would contact them and see if they will give you any rhythm.
kal--there is a reason why NO agencies or folks who use firearms professionally have chosen the same pistol you did... I am sorry you got an unreliable handgun, but it is not surprising at all given the reputation of the vendor and how their pistols have not held up in demanding use.
You would have been far better off picking up a used 9 mm Glock, M&P40, or even an old used 3rd gen S&W--any of which would have run $350-450. Likewise, 9 mm and particularly .40S&W seem to be more available and affordable than .45 ACP, at least here on the west coast.
The 50rd box of WWB HP's gave me seven FT-Feeds, round impacting bottom of the feed ramp. 7 out of 50rds.......
I don't think I can trust this pistol for serious use.
Kal, I don't recall anyone here stating that you probably shouldn't because they felt like giving you a hard time.
Still, you may get better results with another brand or type of HP ammo. May, that is. Either way, you are now a more educated shooter as a result of your endeavor.
Kal,
Sorry to hear that 7/50 FTF's was your experience with JHP's but I knew that was going to be the result when I suggested that you try it. Sometimes it is better to see something with your own eyes instead of being told.
Good luck,
Ken
Still, you may get better results with another brand or type of HP ammo
I doubt it. The WWB HP's have a pretty small tip diameter. If any other 45acp HP's are any wider, they may not feed in my pistol at all.
What I saw at the range was the rounds are in-line with the feed ramp and should feed well, but when the gun cycles, the slide dips the round downward just a tiny bit when stripping it from the mag and the bottom edge of the hollow point bullet impacts the bottom, flat portion of the feed ramp.
You would have been far better off picking up a used 9 mm Glock, M&P40, or even an old used 3rd gen S&W--any of which would have run $350-450. Likewise, 9 mm and particularly .40S&W seem to be more available and affordable than .45 ACP, at least here on the west coast.
The next handgun I get may be an M&P40, which should have been bought in the first place, but what was done is done and cannot be taken back. Part of the reason I bought a 45acp in was because I planned on having a 45acp carbine to go with it. But that's a topic for another day.
Funny, I'm seeing lots of 45 now at local wal marts. But the price cannot be ignored. The 45acp WWB HP's I bought were $30 per 50rds, and it's the only wal mart wwb 45 hp's I've seen since april. The 40sw WWB HP's are stacked generously at $24 a box.
40sw sure is attractive.
Kal,
Have you ever though about buying ammo 1000rds at a time? Bulk packs? Everytime you a few boxes you are paying a substantial penalty for all of that packaging. Where ever you live there has to be a bulk retailer within 100 miles, it would be worth the drive. Even ordering online will save you a fortune.
www.ammunitiontogo.com is a reputable retailer, as are Silver State Armory and Palmetto.
Ken
Another good site for monitoring ammo prices:
http://gun-deals.com/ammo
Default sorting is Cost Per Round
Have you ever though about buying ammo 1000rds at a time? Bulk packs? Everytime you a few boxes you are paying a substantial penalty for all of that packaging. Where ever you live there has to be a bulk retailer within 100 miles, it would be worth the drive. Even ordering online will save you a fortune.
wal mart federal ball ammo in 45 is $15.97 a box.
for 20 boxes, after 6% tax, it comes out to be $338.60 for 1,000 rounds. That's cheaper than some online dealers.
Plus I can maybe sell the brass to come out under 300 dollars per thousand rounds.
Kal, my compliments for your forthcomingness in this matter.
Folks, I will NOT being hitting the 2k mark with this pistol. I think I've had enough.
Came back from the range today. I was doing very well today with my shooting.
However, I got 6 FT-Feeds out of 150rds of federal ball ammo. One of the mags has rounds sitting a bit too low, which causes the bolt to slip over the round sometimes, causing a FTFeed.
I can buy new mags, but I'd rather hit many birds with one stone and buy another pistol. Buy a better quality pistol, reduce to more available 40sw, single action striker fired with external safety.
I got 200rds of wwb 45 left and will probably shoot them tomorrow or next week, and will post a final report on my 24/7 OSS 45acp.
As of right now, 1,250rds of fmj...........16 failure to feeds
50rds of JHP........7 failure to feeds
John_Wayne777
06-12-10, 13:29
The lessons learned at the school of hard knocks often make a lasting impression.
Your experience is, unfortunately, not unique...which is why we give the advice that we do. Some options on the market really are better than others. No brand name is a guarantee for every individual specimen they produce, but some gun companies are better at turning out guns that work than others. Most of us had to learn that the hard way too.
It's just cheaper and less frustrating to learn from the experience of others. :D
It's just cheaper and less frustrating to learn from the experience of others
That's what I did. I want to thank all the members of M4C and other sites who have spent money on crap and then posted their experiences. It has saved me quite a tidy sum.
I want to thank all the members of M4C and other sites who have spent money on crap and then posted their experiences
I don't know about other members, but my "crap" gave me hours of fun.
One day I'll look back and say, "Good ol' Taurus." :D
Kal,
We all appreciate the sacrifice that you made so that all of us could experience the Taurus first hand. You'll be quite happy with the M&P40. Probably the best overall .40S&W on the market.
varoadking
06-12-10, 18:11
Buy a better quality pistol...
Always good advice...
old used 3rd gen S&W
Right now there are hundreds of very nice S&W 5906s on the market that would cost about $300-350 delivered to the end user. FWIW.
Rayrevolver
06-13-10, 00:41
Have you considered a 9mm?
You can shoot more since 9mm from Walmart is still $9 a box. Winchester Ranger is cheap-ish for carry ammo.
Some good info from DocGKR:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
Good luck with your next purchase. Maybe consider saving up enough money to take a 1 or 2 day pistol class.
would ve picked up a used glock for 450 + - $$
Fired 200rds of wwb 45acp today, 2 FT-feeds.
1,450rds total of FMJ, 18 FT-Feeds
50rds total of JHP, 7-FT-feeds
It is in my opinion that the Taurus 24/7 OSS 45acp is in need of a redesigned feed ramp, as it is too steep. Mags are not really the problem.
Other than that, the pistol was great to shoot and had no other issues with it. The pistols ergonomics and controls were awesome and easy to manipulate.
oh well, time to sell it!
Fair well, and good bye Taurus.
would ve picked up a used glock for 450 + - $$
My LGS at a Glock sale for $489 NIB.
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