Shooting through vehicles

[emt370]

I recently had an in-service training with my PD and I want to get some opinions on what was taught. We did scenarios in which we were ambushed on a traffic stop. In one of the scenarios, we were attacked on approach by the driver with an AR. The purpose of the drill was to have us retreat to behind our trunks and return fire. I took some issue with this for several reasons. First, I do not feel that you can effectively/accurately fire back through both front and rear windshields and the plexiglass partition at a target 40-50 feet away. Second, I do not want to be pinned down behind just my car if I can get to more solid cover a greater distance away. I just feel like a trapped target against a long rifle behind my trunk.

What do you guys think? Am I crazy? I understand returning the fire and getting in the fight, but should you waste ammo trying to shoot through all that material or is it better to give accurate, aimed rounds from other cover. Also, do you consider being behind your trunk as effective cover from an AR-type weapon? I always heard that your cruiser is a bullet magnet and to get away if possible for better cover or to get more distance from the enemy.

[DARK-KNIGHT]

I would use the engine block if possible or at least one of the wheels for cover. The wheels also provide a little protection from rounds skipped under the vehicle. I don't think I would return fire through the back and front window, however, we will deliver fire through the front windshield if need be while inside the vehicle until we can exit.

[30 cal slut]

cars provide some pretty impressive cover! even getting behind a door to minimize your profile can be tremendously helpful.

you are better off getting out as fast as you can and getting to the side of the vehicle that is away from the threat (in the case you mentioned, the rear).

with the rear as cover, you can shoot from a kneeling supported position.

[NCPatrolAR]

This topic is touched on some in the following link

http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=86692&highlight=csat

[John_Wayne777]

What do you guys think? Am I crazy? I understand returning the fire and getting in the fight, but should you waste ammo trying to shoot through all that material or is it better to give accurate, aimed rounds from other cover.


I think the overriding question would be whether or not other cover is going to be available. Your cruiser is likely to be right there and in many circumstances may be your only source of cover. Shooting through the rear windshield is no biggie. It's tempered glass and should shatter easily...but the partition in your cruiser and the front windshield pose more serious challenges to accuracy and terminal ballistics.



Also, do you consider being behind your trunk as effective cover from an AR-type weapon?


That depends on what you mean by "behind your trunk". If the vehicle is in line with you, meaning you are kneeling at the rear bumper with the whole vehicle in front of you, that's not a bad position as the whole car is between you and bullets. I'm thinking here of the typical traffic stop where you are pulled in behind the suspect vehicle.

If, however, the car is perpendicular to the direction you are facing, the trunk area is not really cover.

Behold:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/buick/buickengine11.jpg

If you were hiding on that side of the quarterpanel you'd be screwed.

The best case for cover on the car is the engine compartment, especially the area where the wheels are located. That offers you maximum possible protection.

If your vehicle is parked with the front end slightly turned out like most department SOP's mandate, that area just forward of the driver's door almost to the wheel well will put the majority of the engine compartment between you and the bad guy. It's very difficult to get rounds through that area or to even skip them over the hood to hit exposed bits of anatomy. Anything you poke over the top of it is in danger if the guy has any skill at hitting an intended target.



I always heard that your cruiser is a bullet magnet and to get away if possible for better cover or to get more distance from the enemy.

I'm by no means an expert, but it would depend on the situation. If we go with your hypothetical of a dude coming at you with an AR, distance isn't going to favor you as far as weapons go if you're stuck responding to that with your sidearm. If you're stuck in a situation where you've got no other cover and your sidearm is all you have, keeping as much of the engine compartment between you and him as possible should be a priority.

So should delivering accurate fire into his anatomy. Accurate fire is the greatest force multiplier in the world.

If you're still in the cruiser when this guy is coming at you it might be best to use the mobility of the cruiser to get the hell out of dodge. Get low in the passenger compartment and back 'er up. If you can create enough distance to allow you to get to a patrol carbine into action and maybe get some backup, that's preferable than trying to stand and fight with a guy who's got you bested in the arms race. If he's out of his vehicle on foot odds are that backing up will buy you a significant chunk of time.

...of course, if you're in the cruiser and moving you could also run his ass over. 2 tons beats 55 grains any day.

Whether a car is a bullet magnet or the best cover you have would depend on what else is available. If you're on some lonely highway you may be stuck with the car as the best bit of cover out there.

I often make the assumption that everyone has seen this before, but if not I'll offer it:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

Not a highly scientific writeup or anything, just some basic info that may be useful to some folks.

[tracker722]

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[Stretz Tactical Inc]

Sigarms does an excellent class, where you do this stuff hands on and they shoot every area of the car with everything up to and including 50 BMG.

http://www.sigsaueracademy.com/Courses/ShowCourseDetails.aspx?CourseID=92

[Failure2Stop]

cars provide some pretty impressive cover! even getting behind a door to minimize your profile can be tremendously helpful.


I don't know if you are being sarcastic, but my experience has been the opposite.

[VMI-MO]

I don't know if you are being sarcastic, but my experience has been the opposite.

I might be off about 30 Cal Slut, so if I am call me on it.

But I am guessing he is making this call off the recent Night Fighter class where some old car did prove to stop alot of different rounds quite well. Its door got hit with M193, M855, some type of TRU ammo (I forget the exact specs) and some other stuff. Only the 70grn Barnes TSX made it through the door.

This was just a one round sample. Multiple shots would of had a much different outcome.

Also, the other rides that were there were not very effective at all if I remember correctly.


PJ

[NCPatrolAR]

Lots of things can effect rounds passing through doors. Material of the door, whether the window is up or down, etc all factor in. In general, I view car doors only as concealment. Just like most vehicles themselves.

[tpd223]

No time for a more detailed post, but my experience with shooting through windshields is that one can not effectively engage a bad guy through a windshield if they are more than a few feet in front of the car, the distances you are talking about are not possible due to deflection of the bullets.

No, it doesn't matter if the bullet is bonded or not.

Cars make very poor cover. A trunk won't stop a .22 on a sideways shot.

[Failure2Stop]

But I am guessing he is making this call off the recent Night Fighter class where some old car did prove to stop alot of different rounds quite well.

Interesting. I certainly have not shot through every car in existence, so if there are some that do actually stop rifle bullets I will not argue.

My experience is based on certain vehicles in use by various US agencies and those commonly found overseas- all but a few were manufactured within the past 15 years or so.

They don't build 'em like they used to I guess. ;)

[Erk1015]

I often make the assumption that everyone has seen this before, but if not I'll offer it:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

Not a highly scientific writeup or anything, just some basic info that may be useful to some folks.

Here's another similar article from Paul Howe at CSAT:
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/the_myth_of_cover_07.pdf

[NCPatrolAR]

Here's another similar article from Paul Howe at CSAT:
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/the_myth_of_cover_07.pdf

Thats what I was thinking of when I posted that link several days ago.

[John_Wayne777]

Here's another similar article from Paul Howe at CSAT:
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/the_myth_of_cover_07.pdf

I was hoping someone would post that. Thanks.

[glocktogo]

No time for a more detailed post, but my experience with shooting through windshields is that one can not effectively engage a bad guy through a windshield if they are more than a few feet in front of the car, the distances you are talking about are not possible due to deflection of the bullets.

No, it doesn't matter if the bullet is bonded or not.

Cars make very poor cover. A trunk won't stop a .22 on a sideways shot.

I've seen shooters make hits out to 15 yards through a windshield by placing the muzzle very near the glass and shooting through the hole made by the 1st shot. Moving your torso can allow subsequent shots to go through the same hole to other threat locations if the threat moves or multiple threats are presented.

However, if the car is not immobilized or blocked, I'd only do this one handed. The other hand would be busy getting the hell out of dodge as JW777 mentioned.

As for the car being cover, you should know where the soft bits are vs. the tough bits. Place the toughest bits between you and the threat and shoot around the vehicle, not through or over it. You'll expose less of yourself to direct fire this way. Ideally, you should try to stay mobile by squatting rather than going down on a knee or prone if possible. It's much faster to move that way if the threat tries to flank you.

If you're away from the patrol car and need to gain cover, you need to make a split second decision on how to get there the quickest and with the most cover. Accurate fire is great cover, but if youre sacrificing too much mobility to get it, you're gambling that your initial hits have good effect. Numerous events have documented tough opponents who didn't realize they should stop when shot.

My first rule of gunfighting is try to not get shot! Everything else flows from there. In a remote area, I might elect to turn and run while firing cover shots with the gun inverted behind me (try it sometime). I've seen many people stumble on their own feet or the turf monster trying to shoot while rapidly backing up.

Fire, mobility and cover are all important. Try to not give up one in pursuit of the other two.

Just some random thoughts here. Above all else, search for wisdom and then trust your instincts. Good luck and stay safe out there!