View Full Version : DPMS "The Agency" rifle
Surefire22
04-19-10, 01:04
I've been looking pretty hard at this gun. I like all the accessories it comes with. Does anyone have one or have any insight on it?
infidelprodigy
04-19-10, 01:50
That package DPMS ripped off of Rock River Arms "Government" model based on what was speced for the DEA contract they got years ago. I will say this about DPMS: they are a "sometimes/maybe" rifle manufacture. Sometimes/maybe you end up with one of their rifles that is totally reliable, runs flawlessly, and you are completely content with it. However, more times then not, you will have issues with it from substandard parts, non-spec chambers, to failure to properly QC the weapon before it leaves the factory.
Staring with the rifle, I would look at a number of reputable manufactures. Daniel Defense, LMT, BCM, Noveske, Colt are all top weapons with very few issues due to the use of high quality parts and stringent QC. For $ sake, DD and LMT are going to give you the best go. Those 2 companies comprise about 95% of the components for the many AR's I have built that are in my safe.
In regards to the accessories that come with that package, there are updated versions that are more worth while. A Daniel Defense Omega rail is probably the best drop-in rail system on the market. Surefire has come out with much smaller, brighter, and lighter illumination systems then the M951 series (the M600 Scout lights and X300's jump to mind). Lastly there are much better choices in a rear sight then the DPMS Magonel. For fixed, I would take Daniel Defense, while folding my choice would be Troy Industries followed by the Magpul MBUS if you're trying to stretch the penny.
As far as optics, I have used Eotech and Aimpooint extensively. I feel slightly faster and able to shoot tighter groups with the Eotech, however the Aimpoint offers more in the ruggedness and ability to take abuse department. I would take the Aimpoint optics (T-1, M3, or M4) for a general purpose carbine or a patrol rifle because of the extreme battery life and the ability to leave the optic on so it is always ready to go. Eotech is more of a direct action optic used for specific missions in which it excels beyond anything else in its class. I use the 552 and the new XPS with absolutly no issues. The 552 I've put a lot of rounds down with without a hiccup, and with lithium AA batteries, the runtime is extended.
Hope this helps!
ive got two of those sometimes rifles.
I would steer clear of DPMS personally. There are plenty of other alternatives that are cheaper. I can build a carbine for around 1500.00 that will outrun the DPMS any day of the week.
$2069.00? Egad. :rolleyes: For that money, you could a similar package with a high quality base gun and optic.
Example: Colt 6940 (~$1359.00), Comp ML3 2MOA w/ LT mount (~$569.00), and a G2 LED w/ TNVC or Malkoff on a VTAC (~$125). Total: $2053.00
You could adjust some components to keep the SF M951, or add a decent 2-stage trigger, or go to a T1 or M4S optic, or combinations thereof.
Start with a good foundation - good brand rifle, mostly good barrel and BCG, then go from there.
It's better to skimp on accessories (rail, optic if you co-witness) then on the rifle, or just save up for the good stuff.
Let's examnine what you get:
16"
• 4140 Chrome-moly steel CRAP! No mention if it is HPT/MPI
• Manganese phosphated
• 6 groove, right-handed 1x9 twist, button rifled CRAP]/b]
• A2 Flash hider (birdcage)
Chamber:
• 5.56 x 45mm [b]Maybe, Maybe not
Method of Operation:
• Gas operated rotating bolt
Bolt & Carrier:
• Chrome plated 8620 steel bolt carrier, heat treated and plated per Mil Spec. NO need for a chome plated carrier
• Phosphated steel bolt, heat treated and plated per Mil Spec. No mention of the bolt steel, or if it is HPT/MPI
Sights:
• Standard A2 front sight assembly, DPMS flip-up rear CRAP
Upper Receiver:
• Forged 7075-T6 aircraft aluminum alloy
• Hard coat anodized per Mil Spec and Teflon coated black
• A3 Flattop, no handle included. Ready for optics. Handle available seperately.
• Dust cover
• Shell deflector
• Round forward assist
• Right hand ejection
Lower Receiver:
• Forged 7075-T6 aircraft aluminum alloy
• Hard coat anodized per Mil Spec and Teflon coated black
• Semi-auto trigger group CRAP! Stuck with DPMS's LPK
• Aluminum trigger guard
• Magazine release button
Stock: • Telescoping fiber reinforced polymer, fully functional CRAP! Commercial RE
Handguards:
•Surefire Quadrail™ No one uses these any more (as there are much better choices)
Special Features: EoTech 552 Holographic sight, Surefire Quadrail with Weapons Mounted Light and spare bulb, tactical latch, Ergo grip Pass on the 552 (better EOTech's available); the SF weaponlight is old out dated technology and WAY too heavy and we have seen the Ergo grips break (so pass on that as well)
Ok, so it looks like a really subpar rifle for $2k.
C4
Littlelebowski
04-19-10, 11:28
Don't forget the well knwon and widely used DPMS Pardus stock!
I would never trust a DPMS rifle for anything serious. Range rifle only. Out of spec parts, bolt catches breaking, pins breaking, crap LPK,s.
bluepythons
04-19-10, 11:57
Our agency has some DPMS's in our inventory, we are in MN about 1 hour away from the plant (if you can call it that) so the local rep won over our previous admin. We also have some surplus Colt A1s that were converted to carbines. Out of all of our rifles we have only had problems with the DPMS's. We have had broken gas rings with in about 1000 rounds, uppers so tight you needed a pin and punch, and some broken parts in the lower.
When we sent the rifles back that you were not able to field strip in the field, tight fiting, I mean really tight they told me, "well you want them tight for accuracy." I replied that I wanted to be able to field strip it in the field to lube, clean, etc. He tried to take them apart and had to go in back to use tools. They had the gunsmith fix them by mearly grinding the hole in the upper receiving for the take down pin, mmm I guess thats one way.
Stay far, far away from anything DPMS, my first rifle is a DPMS which I will kep more so for sentimental reasons as it was the first rifle I built, it runs fine but probably due to the fact my mentor taught me to assemble it properly with better parts. Their "plant" is just a large hanger with a bunch of assemblers. I did not see much manufacturing of any parts etc, I'm guessing they do but probably out source it or import crap parts. I am trying to get our PD away from them but in the mean time we are stuck with them. :(
Dave
PrivateCitizen
04-19-10, 12:37
Beware of pinstripes and under-coating.
You start zeroing in on things that don't matter.
I've been looking pretty hard at this gun. I like all the accessories it comes with. Does anyone have one or have any insight on it?
First off, Welcome to the forum!
Like others have stated, don't buy the rifle because of what accessories come with it. Take any comments (good and bad) with a grain of salt. While many people will complain about a particular manufacturer chances are that in reality the complainer has little to no experience with the manufacturer nor the particular rifle being questioned. They simply re-post other peoples problems, concerns, "hear says", and opinions. Any and ALL manufacturer's rifles have the potential to prematurely wear out and/or fail. What matters most is that:
1) You are competent enough to take apart your rifle and inspect it periodically for any anomalies (With the advent of the internet this should not be a problem with all of the resources available) and
2) What kind of warranty/reputation the manufacturer has for fixing/repairing their products and the customer service to back it up
I have owned several DPMS Rifles. The only problem I ever had with one was with a Factory Built SBR (Kitty Kat) that I purchased from them. The rifle came in an A2 configuration and ran flawlessly! Me however wanted the ability to have an A3/A4 (Basically a Flattop) Upper. Upon changing the upper, getting rid of the FSB and going to a low profile gas block and carbine length FF Rails caused the rifle to hiccup to the point of failure. What would happen was that upon firing a round, occasionally the primer from a spent casing would be "blown out" of the primer pocket and end up in the FCG completely rendering the rifle as useless. I had all kinds of expert advice and theory's of failure given to me, but none of them made any change in performance of the rifle. I swallowed my pride and contacted DPMS and told them about the rifle and they emailed me a pre-paid UPS shipping label and went through the rifle and found nothing but a spent primer in the lower receiver/FCG. They sent the rifle back to me with no incurred S&H charges. Was the rifle fixed, no. However DPMS could not get the rifle to fail for them and could not find anything wrong with it. FWIW, the problem was resolved upon installing a F/A Carrier, Heavy Buffer & Spring, and beefing up the extractor. However the point I was trying to make was that even though i purchased this rifle new from DPMS and changed the configuration (and started having problems only when I changed the configuration), they still were more than willing to stand behind their product and made sure I incurred no expenses in the process.
My best advice would be to contact somebody like Rob S (member of this forum/Tactical Yellow Visor Dude) or any other Industry Professional, Subject Matter Expert, or Moderator and talk to him about your situation and wants versus needs - meaning are you buying this rifle for work or play. I feel he will give you the most honest, non-biased opinion based on factual research and not hear say.
I do agree with the consensus of the price being a bit steep. I know for a fact you could find this exact rifle for less than $1900 plus S&H. However still at that price I believe you can assemble a package that would satisfy you more than this rifle would. Mangonel Sights? IDK either. Never used one but they just look awkward to me.
Good Luck and Welcome Aboard!
One of the differences between this site and several others is that we don't support hearsay.
If someone, especially a moderator, Industry Professional, or SME (subject matter expert) posts something, you can be sure it's not hearsay unless we present it as such up front.
DPMS has a terrible reputation here and for good reason. I've personally seen several break bolts, have shoddy construction, and have all manner of issues.
There are so many better choices.
DPMS, Rock River, and Bushmaster are masters of marketing, but not so much when it comes to actually building a rifle.
$2,000+ (or even $1,900) is ridiculous for ANY DPMS.
Take a look at "The Chart (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html)" (by rob_s) and you'll see that there's a lot that DPMS doesn't do/skimps out on compared to the other brands (the farther right on the chart a rifle is, the lesser quality it is, and DPMS is the farthest right).
Consider that you can get a BCM, Colt, or Noveske for LESS than the $2,000 that the DPMS would cost, in addition to optics, grips, etc., and you'll see it just doesn't make sense.
Get a quality weapon and save yourself money, time, and the embarrassment of finding out just how bad DPMS rifles can be.
For a $2000 budget, you can get a top of the line rifle with optic.
infidelprodigy
04-19-10, 17:16
Not promoting any "hearsay" about DPMS, simply stating my experiences from working retail sales, range duty, instruction, and working in purchasing for a major retailor fo firearms. DPMS has at best spotty quality, garnered from the amount of rifles I have had to send back, or have seen break during usage.
2-3 years ago, at least you could talk to a real person that could rectify your situation immediately when you called them. Lately, their CS has gone way down. I had orders that I cancelled still shipped even when I had "confirmation" from them it was cancelled. Then they wanted to charge us for return shipping due to their mistake. Don't get me started on the non-returned phone calls or e-mails eiether....
Oppose that with companies like LMT and DD, whose CS is of the charts and the reps are always willing to go the extra mile for the customer and reatailors alike. Plus their products are head and shoulders above companies like DPMS.
syclone170
04-19-10, 17:35
I am one of the very satisfied owner of DPMS rifles and have been for many years. I don't intend to spend thousands of dollars for any AR since mine and others in my family work just great. Mine is a SS bull barrel 20" and is my coyote and prairie dog rifle and it works just great..
Surefire22
04-19-10, 17:51
I appreciate all the replies everyone. So basically stay away from the DPMS as a base rifle is the consensus. As far as the surefire rail, i've seen great reviews and it looks really good. I'm not mounting optics or anything on it so it it doesn't allow repeat zero I don't really care. What about putting the accessories from the agency or some others mentioned on a Bushmaster M4A3. People seem to not like the Bushies either for some reason.
Our agency has some DPMS's in our inventory, we are in MN about 1 hour away from the plant (if you can call it that) so the local rep won over our previous admin. We also have some surplus Colt A1s that were converted to carbines. Out of all of our rifles we have only had problems with the DPMS's. We have had broken gas rings with in about 1000 rounds, uppers so tight you needed a pin and punch, and some broken parts in the lower.
When we sent the rifles back that you were not able to field strip in the field, tight fiting, I mean really tight they told me, "well you want them tight for accuracy." I replied that I wanted to be able to field strip it in the field to lube, clean, etc. He tried to take them apart and had to go in back to use tools. They had the gunsmith fix them by mearly grinding the hole in the upper receiving for the take down pin, mmm I guess thats one way.
Stay far, far away from anything DPMS, my first rifle is a DPMS which I will kep more so for sentimental reasons as it was the first rifle I built, it runs fine but probably due to the fact my mentor taught me to assemble it properly with better parts. Their "plant" is just a large hanger with a bunch of assemblers. I did not see much manufacturing of any parts etc, I'm guessing they do but probably out source it or import crap parts. I am trying to get our PD away from them but in the mean time we are stuck with them. :( Dave
Your experience is common.
A number of agencies proximate to DPMS either don't use them, or can't wait to get rid of them. You would think there'd be more enthusiasm for a local business, and better support from it for the home team.
Some agencies have declined FREE guns from them. That's really something. The only thing cheaper than a cop is two cops.
I am one of the very satisfied owner of DPMS rifles and have been for many years. I don't intend to spend thousands of dollars for any AR since mine and others in my family work just great. Mine is a SS bull barrel 20" and is my coyote and prairie dog rifle and it works just great..
Your example is helpful in illustrating the point. The DPMS is a hobby/rec gun, and will mostly meet the expectations of those in those pursuits. It's when you ask more of them that you'll have issues.
What about putting the accessories from the agency or some others mentioned on a Bushmaster M4A3. People seem to not like the Bushies either for some reason.
There are better weapons available than Bushmaster or DPMS. It might be worth saving a little while longer to get a higher quality firearm. That way, you aren't paying extra to go through and upgrade everything down the road.
Another option is to buy your AR15 in parts. Go with a lower, then an upper down the road. You can buy the best components you can afford, as you can afford them.
Dont Purchase My S#!t. :D
All kidding aside, as stated by everyone else above, there are better options at lower prices.
From my personal experience, rushing into accessories like optics and rails and even base guns can be a painfully expensive experience. Read up, research and then decide. Once you have your base gun, shoot - find your style, if you will. read - to find what complements your particular shooting style. research - dig for reviews, options, best models etc.
leopard hound
04-19-10, 19:18
as far as bushmaster goes they are a step above a DPMS. what you need to do is take the advise given by the good fellows on this forum... you can buy a high quality rifle in pieces and put it together at home. IF the thought of putting a rifle together yourself scares you what you need to do is send a PM to C4IGrant. He will put a rifle together for you.It will be a MUCH, MUCH higher quality firearm than both a DPMS or BUSHY and he will probably still make budget........
PrivateCitizen
04-19-10, 19:31
Just to give you an idea of how easy it is to replicate the DPMS in terms of features with a solid quality option.
I just threw this together all off of Grant's site (http://www.gandrtactical.com)
BCM Complete Lower with Magpul CTR: $440
BCM Complete Upper w/DD Omega 9.0, A2, and BCM BCG: $859
Aimpoint ML3 with American Defense Aimpoint Cantilever Mount $540
SureFire G2 Package Deal w Vltor G Series mount: $66
2 PMAGs: $28.40
Magpul MBUS rear: $0 (j/k, they are Out of Stock) … ($58 bucks anywhere)
This goes together easy as legos and is a setup you can bet your life on.
Total: $1991.14 + probably $50 in FFL/Shipping fees
I think half the forum could come up with an individual parts list that totals less than the DPMS, and completely blows it out of the water on performance and quality.
Get a lower separately, build it up with quality parts.
Decide the barrel and contour you want, then add the handguard of your choice.
Complete the build with high end components (BCM/GTS SD Bolt Carrier Groups, GFH Charging Handle), TROY, DD, or MBUS backup sights, and an optic with an LT, ADM, or Bobro mount.
I would say you could build this $1800 or less...
http://i44.tinypic.com/qzojm1.jpg
I built this for $1300 and it has a Military M4 barrel and lots of other quality parts. I used all brand new parts. You just have to shop around and find the best deals. I would never buy a built rifle.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z198/merlebrooks/001-2.jpg
Oh dude, you can do soo much better than a DPMS for that kinda dough...A friend bought a DPMS during the O-Scare and it gave him fits from day#1. I was away and could not talk him out of buying a DPMS 16" carbine. I think we changed everything in that lower and had to put lapping compound on the take down pins because they were tight, waaaay too tight. When the bubble burst he bought a Colt 6920 and will get a LWRC M6A2 soon. He is gonna keep the DPMS and "franken gun" it completely but he said he would nevber buy a DPMS again and would not ever sell his POS because he does not want to lay that turd on any one! nuff said... :eek:
I am one of the very satisfied owner of DPMS rifles and have been for many years. I don't intend to spend thousands of dollars for any AR since mine and others in my family work just great. Mine is a SS bull barrel 20" and is my coyote and prairie dog rifle and it works just great..
In a varmint rifle configuration, I wouldn't have any issues with owning a DPMS, BM or RRA. Why? Because it is not a defensive tool that will be hard used. start shooting your DPMS in carbine schools and you will see what we are talking about.
C4
I appreciate all the replies everyone. So basically stay away from the DPMS as a base rifle is the consensus. As far as the surefire rail, i've seen great reviews and it looks really good. I'm not mounting optics or anything on it so it it doesn't allow repeat zero I don't really care. What about putting the accessories from the agency or some others mentioned on a Bushmaster M4A3. People seem to not like the Bushies either for some reason.
As a SF dealer, I am advising you to stay away from the SF rail as there are better options for less money out there.
The BM rifle is another "avoid."
Stick with:
BCM
LMT
Daniel Defense
Colt
Noveske
C4
syclone170
04-20-10, 10:35
In a varmint rifle configuration, I wouldn't have any issues with owning a DPMS, BM or RRA. Why? Because it is not a defensive tool that will be hard used. start shooting your DPMS in carbine schools and you will see what we are talking about.
C4Well, since I see no reason to go to a carbine school and use mine to hunt or target shoot with, and to believe that it could not be used for self defense is just plain stupid. Mine has lasted a long time and I am sure it will last for a long time yet.
Well, since I see no reason to go to a carbine school and use mine to hunt or target shoot with, and to believe that it could not be used for self defense is just plain stupid. Mine has lasted a long time and I am sure it will last for a long time yet.
Two completely different applications.
I'm sure your varmint rifle will "last" for as long as the steel and aluminum components will.
However, what your using your rifle for is just as specialized as what a defensive carbine's use is.
There are multiple examples of people with first hand experience to how badly the DPMS brand is when subjected to hard use. Popping prairie dogs and coyotes is completely different game.
Let's keep the discussion civil Grant and syclone.
and we have seen the Ergo grips break (so pass on that as well)[/b]
C4
Ok total thread drift but can you expand on this statement? I've been thinking about an ergo grip for the next build as I kinda like the feel and wanted to try something different from the MIAD (no problems with the miad, just wanted to experiment).
Ok total thread drift but can you expand on this statement? I've been thinking about an ergo grip for the next build as I kinda like the feel and wanted to try something different from the MIAD (no problems with the miad, just wanted to experiment).
We have seen them break in half.
C4
According to the LEO and military trainers on the 10-8 forum, they DO NOT stand up to HARD use.
Thanks guys, guess I'll rule that one out. Guess I'll just wait for the moe+ or whatever with the cushy grip.
We now return you to your DMPS thread already in progress :)
syclone170
04-20-10, 12:39
No need for further (or any) carbine training huh. Sounds like a good idea!
Yes, you CAN use a DPMS as a defensive tool. The point though was that if you ARE going to use your DPMS as a defensive weapon to go take training with it. Once you start to go to carbine schools, you would quickly figure out what the rest of us already know about the DPMS. ;)
Or you can continue to live in wonderful, ignorant bliss and keep on shooting your DPMS.
Just for fun, how long have your owned your DPMS and how many rounds total have your fired through it?
C4It's been a pretty long time, don't remember when I bought it probably close to 8-9 years now, no problems whatsoever. Coyote hunting..5 years... prairie dog hunting.. about the same.. thousands of rounds through it... usually run about 4-5 mags through it at the range trying new handloads..
It's been a pretty long time, don't remember when I bought it probably close to 8-9 years now, no problems whatsoever. Coyote hunting..5 years... prairie dog hunting.. about the same.. thousands of rounds through it... usually run about 4-5 mags through it at the range trying new handloads..
The round count you are shooting is normal for hunting. On the tactical side, it is EXTEMELY low. One 3 day carbine school would be at least 1200rds.
As a hunting weapon, your DPMS will most likely serve you well. This however is not a varmint hunting discussion thread. This is why we are stating that the DPMS will not be the best choice as a defensive carbine.
So when you come into a thread like this stating that your DPMS is great, you are going to get some push back as we are talking about different applications.
C4
joshua79109
04-20-10, 13:01
I appreciate all the replies everyone. So basically stay away from the DPMS as a base rifle is the consensus. As far as the surefire rail, i've seen great reviews and it looks really good. I'm not mounting optics or anything on it so it it doesn't allow repeat zero I don't really care. What about putting the accessories from the agency or some others mentioned on a Bushmaster M4A3. People seem to not like the Bushies either for some reason.
Hello and welcome.
I'm new here too, but one thing I've learned is that this is the right place to get good info. I still find a bs post from time to time, but there is not nearly as much bs here as there are on other sites.
Take your time and look through the good info that is provided here and you'll come out fine.
Here's a few good reads to start off.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376
Good luck and use this site for all of the good info it provides.
I've owned a couple of DPMS rifles and they are what they are, a plinker. If all you're going to do is punch holes in paper targets on a sunny afternoon while hanging out with your buddies then it will likely serve you well. However if you anticipate subjecting your rifle to more abuse than that you would be well served to spend the money and get into a better rifle like a S&W, Charles Daley or Armamlite. The value of these rifles is well worth the extra $$$.
I've owned a couple of DPMS rifles and they are what they are, a plinker. If all you're going to do is punch holes in paper targets on a sunny afternoon while hanging out with your buddies then it will likely serve you well. However if you anticipate subjecting your rifle to more abuse than that you would be well served to spend the money and get into a better rifle like a BCM, DD, Noveske. The value of these rifles is well worth the extra $$$.
Fixed it for you :)
EDIT: On second thought I don't have the experience with all the different brands to just change your statement like that and I don't want to just be part of group think without the firsthand data to back it up. I can only speak firsthand that my DDM4 has been 100% reliable. That being said I still think I fixed your statement correctly :) Could have also put LMT, Colt, KAC in there.
Surefire22
04-20-10, 20:48
So basically the RRA isn't a good tactical rifle either? Not to be that guy saying "well the DEA uses them" but from what I have read they went through some pretty extensive testing and held up very well. I'm sure price was a huge deciding factor but can anyone argue with the testing? I don't know, just asking those that do.
William B.
04-20-10, 21:11
So basically the RRA isn't a good tactical rifle either? Not to be that guy saying "well the DEA uses them" but from what I have read they went through some pretty extensive testing and held up very well. I'm sure price was a huge deciding factor but can anyone argue with the testing? I don't know, just asking those that do.
I owned a RRA upper on my first AR. While it wasn't the "DEA" model, it was a sub-par weapon. It had an out-of-spec chamber and constantly cut my range sessions short. I will never go back to an RRA after having that experience.
So basically the RRA isn't a good tactical rifle either? Not to be that guy saying "well the DEA uses them" but from what I have read they went through some pretty extensive testing and held up very well. I'm sure price was a huge deciding factor but can anyone argue with the testing? I don't know, just asking those that do.
No, RRA isn't good either.
There is more to the story than you know. They (RRA) custom built the guns for the test. They did do well. The main reason why they were selected though is because of the cost. They basically gave them the rifles. Good marketing strategy for RRA's.
I am told that the DEA has been having issues with their choice.
As a general rule, don't follow what PD's, State and Federal LE buy for guns.
C4
What I posted below is pretty damn close to a fully decked out military issue M4. It will be superior to the DPMS as a hard use gun, and cost less. Grant (member here and proprieter of G&R) may even cut you a good deal on a package like this.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DCOLT
About as close to a DoD M4as you will get in civilian form.
https://secure.longmountain.com/product_info.php?products_id=746&osCsid=12b1ad42f5663c852fa2cb9121b373ed
These are brand new in the package, if you want an M952.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=APC3AD68
Argualby better than the Eotech 552.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=RAS-BLEM&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dblem%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html
Mil Issue rail package.
I really think that for a lot of shooters, DPMS, BM, Armalite, RRA type rifles really are adequate. .223 chambers, slightly cheaper alloys used, less stringent QC are complete non-issues when the weapon goes to the range and back, usually with an NC Star optic and UTG handguards. It's not all that bad, but most AR owners aren't aware of how 'inferior' their rifles are, they just use them.
Not everybody is going to run the weapon system long enough to get heat in the barrel, or put enough rounds downrange to even notice deficiencies in the BCG or trigger, or even feed them adequate magazines and ammunition to run in the first place. For hitting steel or varmints, $600 ARs can get the job done.
Anybody who spends enough time around here is going to notice that there's a general trend in rifle specs that lend themselves to hard use. Correct 4150/4145CMV steel, properly specced chambers, HPT/MPI barrels and bolts, correctly assembled and staked bolt carriers/keys, QC on LPKs, and so on.
I'm not the biggest fan of the infamous chart, but understanding why certain components are chosen, and what those differences are really makes sense when paired with reading AARs from courses on what worked, and what crapped out in the middle of strings of fire. The same applies to optics and weaponlights.
Defensive carbines really are their own animal, and to a degree their own mindset. When you start looking at magazines, bolts, gas rings, extractor springs, as expendables, the minor cost savings on a DPMS is at best a wash; and if you start looking at lifetime cost of the weapon system (magazines, ammunition cost you expect to run through the weapon) there's a reason the more experienced guys just avoid and move on.
CaptainDooley
04-21-10, 07:43
I really think that for a lot of shooters, DPMS, BM, Armalite, RRA type rifles really are adequate. .223 chambers, slightly cheaper alloys used, less stringent QC are complete non-issues when the weapon goes to the range and back, usually with an NC Star optic and UTG handguards. It's not all that bad, but most AR owners aren't aware of how 'inferior' their rifles are, they just use them.
Not everybody is going to run the weapon system long enough to get heat in the barrel, or put enough rounds downrange to even notice deficiencies in the BCG or trigger, or even feed them adequate magazines and ammunition to run in the first place. For hitting steel or varmints, $600 ARs can get the job done.
Anybody who spends enough time around here is going to notice that there's a general trend in rifle specs that lend themselves to hard use. Correct 4150/4145CMV steel, properly specced chambers, HPT/MPI barrels and bolts, correctly assembled and staked bolt carriers/keys, QC on LPKs, and so on.
I'm not the biggest fan of the infamous chart, but understanding why certain components are chosen, and what those differences are really makes sense when paired with reading AARs from courses on what worked, and what crapped out in the middle of strings of fire. The same applies to optics and weaponlights.
Defensive carbines really are their own animal, and to a degree their own mindset. When you start looking at magazines, bolts, gas rings, extractor springs, as expendables, the minor cost savings on a DPMS is at best a wash; and if you start looking at lifetime cost of the weapon system (magazines, ammunition cost you expect to run through the weapon) there's a reason the more experienced guys just avoid and move on.
While all this is true - this particular rifle "The Agency" is expensive enough that the OP could get a really great quality rifle and optic... it doesn't make sense to piss away the money on an inferior product.
I really think that for a lot of shooters, DPMS, BM, Armalite, RRA type rifles really are adequate. .223 chambers, slightly cheaper alloys used, less stringent QC are complete non-issues when the weapon goes to the range and back, usually with an NC Star optic and UTG handguards. It's not all that bad, but most AR owners aren't aware of how 'inferior' their rifles are, they just use them.
Not everybody is going to run the weapon system long enough to get heat in the barrel, or put enough rounds downrange to even notice deficiencies in the BCG or trigger, or even feed them adequate magazines and ammunition to run in the first place. For hitting steel or varmints, $600 ARs can get the job done.
Anybody who spends enough time around here is going to notice that there's a general trend in rifle specs that lend themselves to hard use. Correct 4150/4145CMV steel, properly specced chambers, HPT/MPI barrels and bolts, correctly assembled and staked bolt carriers/keys, QC on LPKs, and so on.
I'm not the biggest fan of the infamous chart, but understanding why certain components are chosen, and what those differences are really makes sense when paired with reading AARs from courses on what worked, and what crapped out in the middle of strings of fire. The same applies to optics and weaponlights.
Defensive carbines really are their own animal, and to a degree their own mindset. When you start looking at magazines, bolts, gas rings, extractor springs, as expendables, the minor cost savings on a DPMS is at best a wash; and if you start looking at lifetime cost of the weapon system (magazines, ammunition cost you expect to run through the weapon) there's a reason the more experienced guys just avoid and move on.
This is actually the problem. Meaning that guys shoot 100rds every other month (slow fire from a bench) and believe that their gun is as good as anything else on the market.
Then one of their friends talks them into taking a high round count carbine course and they learn (at their own expense) that what they bought was not the best choice.
For me, I look at every weapon I own as a defensive tool that I may have to bet my life on. Because of this, all handguns and rifles are top quality and reliable.
I do understand the point you are trying to make though and if the guy just wants to go and shoot dirt, then ANY AR will be just fine.
C4
Fixed it for you :)
EDIT: On second thought I don't have the experience with all the different brands to just change your statement like that and I don't want to just be part of group think without the firsthand data to back it up. I can only speak firsthand that my DDM4 has been 100% reliable. That being said I still think I fixed your statement correctly :) Could have also put LMT, Colt, KAC in there.
Those will do too. The ones I listed I would consider a bare minimum. The LMT, Colt, etc. are a step or two above those.
PrivateCitizen
04-21-10, 09:31
While all this is true - this particular rifle "The Agency" is expensive enough that the OP could get a really great quality rifle and optic... it doesn't make sense to piss away the money on an inferior product.
Precisely.
"The Agency" is asking the premium and pretending to be something it is not.
justin_247
04-21-10, 11:46
I've found that most of the rifles with fancy names like "The Agency," "Elite Comp," "Pro-Series Government," "Operator," "Urban Interdiction Rifle," "Perimeter Security Rifle," "Eliminator," "NATO Oracle," "RAPTR," etc. all tend to come from manufacturers who spent more time thinking of what to call their rifle than they did actually doing any quality control on the product.
So my rule is as follows: if the rifle has a fancy name, it'll probably be pretty lame.
Am I okay with a brand new DPMS stripped receiver that I built with Grant's LPK, and a Geissele SSA trigger? I have a Bravo Company M4 style stock set on it as well and will be using a complete BCM mid length upper.
Am I okay with a brand new DPMS stripped receiver that I built with Grant's LPK, and a Geissele SSA trigger? I have a Bravo Company M4 style stock set on it as well and will be using a complete BCM mid length upper.
Most likely so. The 10K question though is, wouldn't you rather have a BCM lower to go along with your BCM upper???
C4
Most likely so. The 10K question though is, wouldn't you rather have a BCM lower to go along with your BCM upper???
C4
Actually its only like a mid $300 question :p
I've found that most of the rifles with fancy names like "The Agency," "Elite Comp," "Pro-Series Government," "Operator," "Urban Interdiction Rifle," "Perimeter Security Rifle," "Eliminator," "NATO Oracle," "RAPTR," etc. all tend to come from manufacturers who spent more time thinking of what to call their rifle than they did actually doing any quality control on the product.
So my rule is as follows: if the rifle has a fancy name, it'll probably be pretty lame.
Then there's the "Diplomat", "CQB", "Infidel", and "Crusader", all Noveskes. :D
Cool names, great guns.
Your statement is still largely true, though.
leopard hound
04-21-10, 17:23
i would suggest you read "THE CHART" in the technical discussion forums.every question about why we suggest alternatives will be answered...........
boggyboy72
04-21-10, 18:42
This is actually the problem. Meaning that guys shoot 100rds every other month (slow fire from a bench) and believe that their gun is as good as anything else on the market.
Then one of their friends talks them into taking a high round count carbine course and they learn (at their own expense) that what they bought was not the best choice.
For me, I look at every weapon I own as a defensive tool that I may have to bet my life on. Because of this, all handguns and rifles are top quality and reliable.
I do understand the point you are trying to make though and if the guy just wants to go and shoot dirt, then ANY AR will be just fine.
C4
There it is.
I have done a lot of reading here at M4C and have seen good and bad things said about DPMS,BM,RRA,and others.
I saved My money and got a BCM,Because if anyone ever said that a BCM let them down I missed that post.
I build mine but I do use some RRA lowers, uppers, LPK's and a couple barrels. No problems with those aside for the tight fit. But I always use a good quality BCG. That and the LPK are what will usually fail in a carbine course.
RootBeer makes a solid point - there's not much downside in a company making a 'flagship' model with a catchy name, and attaching a price point that will make most buyers overly quick to defend its flaws. The only certain indicator is time - and as seen above, there are better, cheaper options, so the 'agency rifle' will go the way of the dodo, to be replaced by something similar.
I haven't been keeping count, but there's at least 6 options listed above that are all around better, so for the OP, this thread has all that's needed.
This is actually the problem...
Then one of their friends talks them into taking a high round count carbine course and they learn (at their own expense) that what they bought was not the best choice.
Well, I consider that a built-in cost of going to a carbine or other course - as certain as having to spend money for ammo, transportation, and food involved; sending all my less effective gear (previously unbeknownst to me) to the trash heap or EE is something I'd consider as just part of the natural progression.
A higher percentage of folks here grasp this, hence why I bum around this forum so much.
syclone170
04-22-10, 10:17
Then of course, there is that old feeling about when are you ever going to shoot that many rounds in a self defense mode?... I have 8-30 rounders, 5-20 rounders, and 1-10 rounder for my AR... 6-20 rounders for my mini-14... that's 470 rounds in my mags... of course, my M1 Garand has 35 enbloc clips in an ammo can for 280 rounds, I doubt very seriously if I will be able to shoot that many rounds in a self defense situation and be alive at the same time... all that talk about carbine classes is kind of foolishness to me since I am not carrying a rifle in my truck only my 45ACP which will have to do until I get home for rifles and shotguns...
Don Robison
04-22-10, 10:36
Then of course, there is that old feeling about when are you ever going to shoot that many rounds in a self defense mode?
Then there is the line of thinking that says why would a person buy a weapon that isn't capable of doing it when there are many for the same price or less are capable.;)
Littlelebowski
04-22-10, 10:52
Then there is the line of thinking that says why would a person buy a weapon that isn't capable of doing it when there are many for the same price or less are capable.;)
Could it be that they didn't know any better and didn't spend their free time reading internet forums and researching things? Maybe?
boggyboy72
04-22-10, 11:07
Then of course, there is that old feeling about when are you ever going to shoot that many rounds in a self defense mode?... I have 8-30 rounders, 5-20 rounders, and 1-10 rounder for my AR... 6-20 rounders for my mini-14... that's 470 rounds in my mags... of course, my M1 Garand has 35 enbloc clips in an ammo can for 280 rounds, I doubt very seriously if I will be able to shoot that many rounds in a self defense situation and be alive at the same time... all that talk about carbine classes is kind of foolishness to me since I am not carrying a rifle in my truck only my 45ACP which will have to do until I get home for rifles and shotguns...
First let Me say that I know very little about anything,But with the help and advice of the Masters here I'm trying change that.
I can't see how taking a carbine class would be foolish,You never know when that SHTF(see I'm already using the lingo;)) moment will happen.Look at what happened after Katrina,It was the Law of the Jungle down there.Or during the L.A. riots,Just about the only stores not burned and looted were the ones that the owners protected with weapons.I don't think they killed anyone,But people knew to stay away.
That's just My opinion and You know what They say about opinions.
Don Robison
04-22-10, 11:09
Could it be that they didn't know any better and didn't spend their free time reading internet forums and researching things? Maybe?
I agree that it's usually because they don't know any better and then usually do their research after a purchase. I'll never understand researching to see if you spent your money wisely after you already spent it.
No need to spend a ton of time. Combine the 55 pages on google after a search of "dpms junk" with the warning on their website and that would be a clue that took less than three minutes to get.
Any manufacturer that posts this warning on their website would give a reasonable person a clue as to the confidence in their product. They void the warranty if you shoot anything of than commercial domestically produced brass cased ammo.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/support/warning.aspx
The only other AR manufacturer I've seen put this warning out on their website was Olympic; another stellar product.
Then of course, there is that old feeling about when are you ever going to shoot that many rounds in a self defense mode?... I have 8-30 rounders, 5-20 rounders, and 1-10 rounder for my AR... 6-20 rounders for my mini-14... that's 470 rounds in my mags... of course, my M1 Garand has 35 enbloc clips in an ammo can for 280 rounds, I doubt very seriously if I will be able to shoot that many rounds in a self defense situation and be alive at the same time... all that talk about carbine classes is kind of foolishness to me since I am not carrying a rifle in my truck only my 45ACP which will have to do until I get home for rifles and shotguns...
You seem to not fully grasp what training is about. You are not sitting on a bench just pulling the trigger 1200-1500 times.
During a 3 day carbine school, you will spend your time learning how to do such tasks as (short list):
1. Sight(s) zero
2. POA/POI understanding (at various distances)
3. Shooting in different positions (kneeling, prone, under vehicles, around barricades, etc)
4. Malfunction clearance
5. Mag changes (tactical and emergency)
6. Moving and shooting
7. Transitioning to a pistol
8. Low Light
The point of shooting that many rounds is to create muscle memory for the correct way to do things and remove your bad habits (which YOU have, but don't realize).
You may only fire ONE round in a defensive situation. But that one round might be fired in the dark, while clearing a room, manipulating a flashlight and utilizing your undstanding of the offset between your boreline and sighting system to make a head shot.
You will then look back at your training and think, THANK GOD I shot all those rounds just so I could shoot one. ;)
We understand that you are most likely going to have a pistol on you (instead of a long gun). It is a good idea to get into pistol training as well.
Remember though that the purpose of a handgun is to fight your way to a long gun.
Here is some lite reading for you and things to ponder:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=42342
C4
Reading a few of the replies here makes me want to smash my head with a 5lb. sledgehammer.
Let's remove emotion and think about it logically. Why would you purchase a firearm, from a company that has a spotty record just because they "top it off" with some cool guy stuff?
There has been enough info given to the OP on what he can and should do.
I have a DPMS as my duty rifle. When I got it, I went through and checked and re-staked everything. It's a 16" carbine length with a chrome lined barrel that says 5.56NATO 1:9 on it. The BCG is chromed. Now here is my next problem, I have fired 1,000 round through it including 300 rounds rapid fire and I still cannot get it to fail. What can I do, without cheating to make this rifle fail at the range? What type of drills can I do to push it to it's breaking point? We use federal .223 55gr fmj for training and federal .223 55gr sp for duty. When our rifle fails, they change it out to a used military Colt M-16, so the sooner this thing junks, the better. Looking back on it, I should not have gone through it, should have just used it as it came, dirty and poorly staked.:confused:
justin_247
04-22-10, 15:56
Then there's the "Diplomat", "CQB", "Infidel", and "Crusader", all Noveskes. :D
Cool names, great guns.
Your statement is still largely true, though.
If there is anybody who would be the exception to the rule, it's Noveske.
I have a DPMS as my duty rifle. When I got it, I went through and checked and re-staked everything. It's a 16" carbine length with a chrome lined barrel that says 5.56NATO 1:9 on it. The BCG is chromed. Now here is my next problem, I have fired 1,000 round through it including 300 rounds rapid fire and I still cannot get it to fail. What can I do, without cheating to make this rifle fail at the range? What type of drills can I do to push it to it's breaking point? We use federal .223 55gr fmj for training and federal .223 55gr sp for duty. When our rifle fails, they change it out to a used military Colt M-16, so the sooner this thing junks, the better. Looking back on it, I should not have gone through it, should have just used it as it came, dirty and poorly staked.:confused:
Take some carbine courses and shoot Mil-Spec Ball (like M855). If there is a problem, you will see it in this environment.
You also might NEVER have a single issue.
C4
justin_247
04-22-10, 16:10
I haven't been keeping count, but there's at least 6 options listed above that are all around better, so for the OP, this thread has all that's needed.
Let's see here:
Colt (LE 6920 / LE 6940)
BCM (design your own)
Daniel Defense (XV / M4 / M4v2 / XVM / M4v3)
Noveske (Light Carbine / Light Recce)
LMT (STD16)
If you absolutely, positively, do not want to get any of those, at least get something from S&W or Spike's Tactical. Otherwise, you're selling yourself short.
GermanSynergy
04-23-10, 06:41
Then of course, there is that old feeling about when are you ever going to shoot that many rounds in a self defense mode?... I have 8-30 rounders, 5-20 rounders, and 1-10 rounder for my AR... 6-20 rounders for my mini-14... that's 470 rounds in my mags... of course, my M1 Garand has 35 enbloc clips in an ammo can for 280 rounds, I doubt very seriously if I will be able to shoot that many rounds in a self defense situation and be alive at the same time... all that talk about carbine classes is kind of foolishness to me since I am not carrying a rifle in my truck only my 45ACP which will have to do until I get home for rifles and shotguns...
The benefit of professional training is being able to effectively and efficiently manipulate your weapons while learning reloads, transitions, shooting on the move, etc.
Taking even one carbine/pistol course from a reputable instructor will tell you alot about your weapons, your kit, and your ability to run those guns under a degree of stress.
a lot of my department friends around here that i shoot with have out down there run of the mill ar's and picked up noveskes, bcm, knights and spikes and been very very happy with them personaly i would look very closly at noveske get a Light LO-PRO i even think they have one in stock get a good sling and a surefire g2 and your good to go i always shoot my guns abot 2000 rounds with irons before i get a sight to get to know the rifle then i get a sight but ive timed it time and time again im just as fast with quality irons as i am with a eotech and noveskes come with great irons
we were seeing how far we could shoot the other day and my bestfriend was hitting tannerite targets at 400 yards with my noveske no problem with irons on it
or do what you want i always did learn from your mistakes but i never wanted to put my life on the line with a rifle or pistol that wasnt up to the task i have quite a few ar rifles but i have only 2 that i would grab in an hostile engagement my noveske or my knights
It's a logical point that in a defensive situation a small number of rounds is going to be spent.
This also implies a short engagement, likely one where a single malfunction or stoppage of fire will take a weapon out of the fight entirely, much to the peril of it's owner.
Add the assumption that this is probably going to be happening in poor light, under stress, and in a movement intense situation.
It doesn't matter how good your training is, a stoppage is going to put you at a disadvantage for seconds when fractions of a second are what counts.
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