View Full Version : New S&W "Self Defense" pistols?
shooter521
04-22-10, 10:54
Hey all!
While browsing a distributor's website looking for something unrelated, I noticed a couple items from S&W that I didn't recognize.
S&W Self Defense
Polymer frame. 4" barrel. Stainless steel slide w/ Melonite finish. Steel fixed rear sight/front tritium night sight. Industry standard equipment rail. Ergonomic design.
Part numbers appear to be 220400 for the .40 (14-round) and 220900 for the 9mm (16-round). Also shows part numbers for models with 10-round mags for restricted states. MSRP is $520.
These are listed and described separately from the Sigma and M&P lines, so I ass-u-me it's a completely new design. S&W's website doesn't list anything. Anyone got any intel?
TheSmiter1
04-22-10, 14:14
I think it's a Sigma. Sigma's have 4-inch barrels and capacities exactly like the ones you mentioned.
I do hope they make a mid size M&P 9/40 soon, though. The Glock 19 is Glock's most popular model, and it's a mid size. Hell, even Baretta made a mid size (compact) PX4. If they can do it, S&W can do it.
shooter521
04-22-10, 18:53
I think it's a Sigma. Sigma's have 4-inch barrels and capacities exactly like the ones you mentioned.
I thought they might be a distributor exclusive version of the Sigma, too (those part numbers don't appear on S&W's website or any other distributor's site that I have access to), until I read "industry standard rail". That would require a new frame mold and would be a fairly big change. I'd also think they would retain the SW9/40 nomenclature, but these were simply listed as "Self Defense".
:confused:
TheSmiter1
04-23-10, 00:37
I thought they might be a distributor exclusive version of the Sigma, too (those part numbers don't appear on S&W's website or any other distributor's site that I have access to), until I read "industry standard rail". That would require a new frame mold and would be a fairly big change. I'd also think they would retain the SW9/40 nomenclature, but these were simply listed as "Self Defense".
:confused:
That's strange. We'll see what comes of it, I suppose. But I haven't heard anything yet. Yet...
shooter521
05-06-10, 11:30
And here they are!
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs309.snc3/29049_394808968959_97239338959_3938706_1196953_n.jpg
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs309.snc3/29049_394808973959_97239338959_3938707_2663678_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs338.ash1/29049_394808978959_97239338959_3938708_6694075_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs338.ash1/29049_394806173959_97239338959_3938683_5866319_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-sjc1/hs309.snc3/29049_394806178959_97239338959_3938684_7716691_n.jpg
S&W SD40, SKU: 220400
Action: Striker Fired Action
Barrel Length: 4” (10.2 cm)
Front Sight: Tritium Night Sight
Rear Sight: Steel Fixed 2-Dot
Overall Length: 7.2” (18.3 cm)
Width: 1.29” (3.3 cm)
Weight: 22.7 oz. (643.0 g)
Grip: Textured Polymer
Frame Material: Polymer
Slide Material: Stainless Steel
Barrel Material: Stainless Steel
Finish: Black Melonite®
Looks like a downgrade from the M&P. Seems a little redundant for the market place.
Interesting.
I am surprised this is the first we have heard of it.
Like others have said it looks like a cross between a Sigma and an M&P.
I do hope they make a mid size M&P 9/40 soon, though. The Glock 19 is Glock's most popular model, and it's a mid size. Hell, even Baretta made a mid size (compact) PX4. If they can do it, S&W can do it.
This has been discussed on the board before.
The M&P fullsize is only about 1/4" of an inch longer in slide and gripframe length than a G19.
SpookyPistolero
05-06-10, 11:59
Definitely agree with the above. Did they raise the bore axis vs. the M&P?
PrivateCitizen
05-06-10, 12:13
Face lifted Sigma with "Tactical-bits"?
(read: M&P design language)
I think so …
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs338.ash1/29049_394806173959_97239338959_3938683_5866319_n.jpg
http://www.dragonfly-media.com/_img/misc/sigma9v.jpg
shooter521
05-06-10, 12:28
Face lifted Sigma with "Tactical-bits"?
(read: M&P design language)
I think so …
Could be a happy medium for lots of folks. Looks like they made some good changes (front night sight, standard accessory rail, better grip texture); hopefully they dropped the M&P trigger pack into this bad boy, rather than continuing to burden their customers with that godawful Sigma trigger...
John_Wayne777
05-06-10, 14:55
That appears to be a Sigma with some M&P-ish styling cues. One wonders about the reasons for making such a pistol but perhaps the explanation is more parts/component commonality between the two, allowing for economized production of the Sigma line....which for some reason still seems to sell.
SmokeJumper
05-06-10, 14:57
Updated Sigma.....
which for some reason still seems to sell.
Cheap ass idiots, mouthbreathers (I got this Sigma for $250 and it's better than a Glock that costs twice as much!) and bulk purchases by armed security companies...
Interesting to note the stippling above the trigger guard. Feedback from MD perhaps?
TheSmiter1
05-06-10, 15:54
Well, it looks less ugly than the original Sigma, at least. I'll reserve judgment until reports on function and reliability are officially in. If they make it reliable and cheap, then it might just do alright.
jdavis6576
05-06-10, 16:20
I just called S&W, the rep said it is more Sigma than M&P. No changeable backstraps, it has the Sigma trigger but it has lighter pull...8 pounds. I asked him for the height but he said he didn't have that information. He did say they would most likely have one or two at the NRA Convention in Charlotte, NC next week. I'm going so I'll check it out but based on what I know at this point I'm glad I picked up another G19 (RTF2 with straight serrations) last week.
Jay Cunningham
05-06-10, 16:25
This seems bizarre... why not just stick with the M&P line??
Dragon Slayer
05-06-10, 16:32
This seems bizarre... why not just stick with the M&P line??
Because it probably will sell for a lot less then the M&P.;)
jdavis6576
05-06-10, 16:32
The word Labradoodle comes to mind...
RogerinTPA
05-06-10, 18:33
Agreed...updated Sigma...Another lesser option for the bubba crowd.
Dragon Slayer
05-06-10, 18:47
Agreed...updated Sigma...Another lesser option for the bubba crowd.
I would still buy that over that other Arab made gun (the Caracal).:rolleyes:
I never understood all the hate on the Sigma other than the nonstandard rail. My friend had one before it was stolen, I didn't think the trigger was that bad, unless his was well broken in or he did something to it and never mentioned it, he had it for 5 or 6 years though. Are they unreliable?
shooter521
05-06-10, 19:57
Because it probably will sell for a lot less then the M&P.;)
Yep. Wholesale price is only about $20 more than the SW9/40VE. Would not be surprised to see the Sigma line go away entirely if these things sell well.
I just called S&W, the rep said it is more Sigma than M&P...it has the Sigma trigger but it has lighter pull...8 pounds.
That inspires no confidence whatsoever.
GermanSynergy
05-06-10, 20:43
I'll pass.....
You think they'd come ask here first...before doing something like this!
usaffarmer
05-06-10, 23:22
Buy an M&P get a free SD. I seem to recall that with the rifles and the sigma. :rolleyes:
I'm going to risk being branded for life as a Bubba by using my first post here to say that I'm very interested in the gun. S&W said on the phone that it's a new product and not an enhanced Sigma; hopefully that is the case. I don't know much about the Sigmas - only what I've read on message boards. From what little shooting and handling I've done I found them to have fine ergonomics and a bad trigger. They're acceptably sized and weighted for carry. I *hear* that they're a dog of a gun when it comes to reliability and durability and that the early models were the worst. No one that I know of has done any sort of an endurance test on one to see how it would hold up to extended shooting sessions and abuse.
Everyone has in their mind what would be the ideal gun for them. To me, ideal would be an M&P9 with simplified internals (to make it as monkey proof as the Glock), no beavertail, a 4" barrel, 15-round magazine and a more aggressively textured grip (to the point of Glock's RTF would be fine to me). If S&W took the ergonomics and size of the Sigma and redesigned the internals, slide and frame to have the M&P's reliability then I think this is going to be a fine gun.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I'm not planning on parting with my G19 any time soon but might be willing to take a shot at one of these, trusting in S&W's customer support to correct any problems. I did the same thing with the M&P and my gun ended up having to go back to S&W three times (mag drops, poor slide finish and poor barrel finish). Their service is top-notch and I have an essentially new gun with an extra magazine to prove it. ;-)
This COULD be an amazing gun but i dont understand why they're doing this.
They're spending all of this money on tooling costs when they could be flogging the ever loving hell out of their flagship product and (arguably) one of the best semi auto handguns released in the last five to ten years.
M&P's are not terribly expensive as is. They can still be found for under 500 bucks resulting in a ~500 dollar out the door price tag after transfer.
Are these new pistols going to come in at the 350 dollar price range? If so, i would still rather spend that money on a case and a half of 9mm to train with using my existing M&P's.
The gun appeals to me but only in an "i dont have a budget and its a perfect world" kind of way.
At the end of the day if this doesnt dilute the market and end up taking money AWAY from S&W i really dont care. The more money S&W makes the happier i am so good luck to them with this design.
John_Wayne777
05-07-10, 11:41
I'm guessing that this Sigma update isn't really aimed at the M4C market. I'm guessing it's aimed at the people who would otherwise be buying a Taurus.
I'm guessing that this Sigma update isn't really aimed at the M4C market. I'm guessing it's aimed at the people who would otherwise be buying a Taurus.
Yeesh, comments like that remind me just how ignorant i am when it comes to the firearms market.
I still, to this day dont understand why anyone would buy a 350 dollar firearm with a questionable track record when they can wait, save up 150 dollars more and buy something that has a winning pedigree.
At the end of the day like i said before i hope that S&W makes oodles of money off of this. If they do, we all stand to win whether we like the SD line of pistols or we are tried and true M&P shooters.
I'm guessing that this Sigma update isn't really aimed at the M4C market. I'm guessing it's aimed at the people who would otherwise be buying a Taurus.
When I bought my M&P9 in 2007 everyone was calling it a revised Sigma. The guy that took my transfer order from BudsGunshop took 15 minutes to tell me how bad the Sigma was. Heck some people today still say that the M&P is a revised Sigma. Hopefully the newer S&W management has learned the needed lessons from the Sigma and has incorporated the durability and reliability of the M&P into this gun. Time will tell...
Areas of potential interest in this gun for me:
- Lack of beavertail means no sharp stabs into the stomach when bending over for those who carry up front.
- Grip similar to Sigma, which was a perfect fit in my hands. No need for additional backstraps.
- Angled/bobtailed base that should reduce printing. The gun might be just big enough but no bigger.
- Potentially reduced number of parts and easier detail strip (i.e. no need to hammer out rear sight to access FP safety)?
Neutral/potential drawbacks:
- Busy rear sight (same as M&P) needs to be replaced or blacked out.
- No left-handed controls. I've learned to run my G19 at an acceptable level so this is a wash.
- No track-record and is already suffering from Stigmatization. :p
- Uses different magazines from the Sigma, according to S&W.
- 8lb trigger...same as a trigger-jobbed Sigma or does it have a shorter reset?
I wonder if the dovetails will be the same as the M&P line?
It certainly would be nice if that were the case so we could use existing sights. They should work on these pistols correct?
The barrels appear to be 4 inches long? I wonder if this was misconstrued as the midsized M&P that granted alluded to in some other threads?
PdxMotoxer
05-07-10, 14:06
This looks like the single stack that many have been asking for.
(Kinda like the PPS vs P99)
I like it.
Front serrations my M&P doesn't have and a few odds and ends.
But I will never know till i get to hold it and see how it feels.
**Edit 16 + 1 in the 9mm, there goes my single stack theory, I only seen the 10 + 1**
firecop019
05-07-10, 14:06
I think it's going to snub out the Sigma and take over for it. The Sigmas seem to be selling to the home defense crowd who want a cheap gun from a quality manufacturer. The Sigma was a good gun until the glock lawsuit. It's still decent, but nowhere what it was when it was first designed.
Oh well, I check one out when they hit the shelves.
TheSmiter1
05-07-10, 14:21
This has been discussed on the board before.
The M&P fullsize is only about 1/4" of an inch longer in slide and gripframe length than a G19.
Yet they'll make this? It would make more sense to me to make a 1/2'' smaller grip M&P without a beavertail than to make a new Sigma. The Glock 19 isn't a whole lot smaller than the G17, come to think of it. And yet it's Glock's most popular model. But hey, whatever. I'd be happy with a full size M&P.
You need to consider the length from the muzzle to the tip of the tang/beavertail if you carry AIWB. It is a much bigger deal then and the M&P9 ends up easily being over an inch longer. While I can comfortably carry my G19 this way I find that the M&P sometimes (painfully) stabs me in the stomach when I bend over. Of course, if I'm aware of this and am careful this isn't as much of a problem but that's not always the case. I haven't tested it yet but I'm betting that having to roll around on the ground with someone while carrying the M&P up front might be pretty painful.
Jay Cunningham
05-07-10, 16:45
I read everyone's opinions on S&W's reasoning... and I *still* don't get it.
:confused:
Beat Trash
05-07-10, 17:03
My bets are that this new gun will be phasing out the Sigma. They will attempt to aggressively go after the "Sigma type buyers" who were shying away from the Sigma and going towards other guns in the same market, such as some of the Taurus', and the Ruger P95.
While this gun most likely will not appeal to those who already own the M&P or the Glock, we tend to forget there is a large segment of the gun buying market who buy guns for various reasons, but aren't really interested in shooting them all that much. These are guns that would be luck to see a couple hundred rounds fired through them per year.
Many thousands of pistols are sold each year to people concerned about protecting themselves at home. Many of these individuals took a lot to talk themselves into buying their first, and maybe their last gun. They may shoot a box or two of ammunition through it after the purchase, or they may not even see the need to fire the thing.
These types of individuals are what I feel the new SD pistols are after. Notice on their literature, they list it as "Homeowner's insurance"?
While most here would find this type of mindset hard to comprehend, it would be foolish for a gun company not to go after that market share.
Son of a bitch.. I've been waiting excitedly since shot show for this new gun, expecting it to be a G19/m&p45c size version of the 9mm. This is what they came out with to compete in the ccw market???
I guess my next purchase will be a gen4 glock 19.. booo smith and wesson, bad call..
Personally I think this dilutes the brand and will confuse less knowledgeable consumers.
I would much much rather have a single stack 9mm M&P instead.:mad:
variablebinary
05-07-10, 21:16
The Difference between the SD and M&P
Drumroll....PRICE!!
SD comes with front night sight standard and has a dealer price of $355. That is damn cheap
The MP is $479 for dealers without night sights.
Personally, I dont think it is a bad strategy. The Sigma line was due for an update anyway.
I don't know, I still think companies spread themselves a bit thin when it comes to having many different platforms.
I'd be more interested in seeing S&W direct these efforts into the M&P line, further refining and giving shooters options by evolving that platform (much like Glock has done).
The past few years have seen a influx of new firearms to the market, and many of them have just been "meh" to me. Seems like instead of having a few guns at 95-99% we're getting a lot of guns around the 70-80% level, if my metaphor makes any sense.
Just my thoughts...
Assy Mcgee
05-08-10, 02:58
they look very similar to sigmas......:eek:
TheSmiter1
05-08-10, 03:32
I don't know, I still think companies spread themselves a bit thin when it comes to having many different platforms.
I'd be more interested in seeing S&W direct these efforts into the M&P line, further refining and giving shooters options by evolving that platform (much like Glock has done).
The past few years have seen a influx of new firearms to the market, and many of them have just been "meh" to me. Seems like instead of having a few guns at 95-99% we're getting a lot of guns around the 70-80% level, if my metaphor makes any sense.
Just my thoughts...
Hell, I'd rather have S&W release a full-size M&P with no beavertail as an option, and maybe the option to add a front night sight only. That's what you have right here, except not the quality of an M&P. Oh well, whatever...
variablebinary
05-08-10, 03:40
...except not the quality of an M&P. Oh well, whatever...
You're basing this off what exactly? Trigger time? Range report from a reputable source?
Hell, I'd rather have S&W release a full-size M&P with no beavertail as an option, and maybe the option to add a front night sight only. That's what you have right here, except not the quality of an M&P. Oh well, whatever...
Fortunately thats not necessarily true. I believe they are re using tooling from the Sigma line which could be the reason why the price is significantly lower.
These guns could turn out to be marvelous for the price point.
Still, my prior statements about my confusion over why this pistol is necessary or even a good thing still stand.
Also, VB, its OK to let product lines die when newer, better designs come out. With the release of the m&p, in my eyes, the sigma should have been put to rest.
If S&W didn't rework the internals on this gun, it is unlikely to be any better than other variants. I distinctly remember the promises of the "Enhanced" line that wasn't. I also distinctly remember a lot of "click" instead of "bang." They made the trigger lighter? Unless it was reworked, that makes me even less enthused.
Few of manufacturer's new offerings meet real needs in the marketplace. They are mostly intended to satisfy consumer's compulsions to buy something different every so often. This appears to be one.
The Sigma remains PNG for any meaningful duty.
My first impression is that they facelifted the Sigmas.
TheSmiter1
05-09-10, 01:58
You're basing this off what exactly? Trigger time? Range report from a reputable source?
My crystal ball. Call it a hunch.
Oh, and the fact that it's so much cheaper than the M&P. You get what you pay for, most of the time...
toasterlocker
05-09-10, 03:56
I'm guessing that this Sigma update isn't really aimed at the M4C market. I'm guessing it's aimed at the people who would otherwise be buying a Taurus.
I think what a lot of us on M4C don't realize is those type of buyers are huge in the civilian commercial market, and we are the minority. All you have to do is go to a gun show and see the ridiculous prices dealers will charge for a Sigma and other lesser guns, and all the people who will gladly pay it.
I think a lot of people are afraid of buying guns online, and don't do any quality research online either. Quality being the operative word, as there is plenty of advice on the web, but most of it isn't as good as what would be found here, and this isn't where MOST people are going to get it.
Here is some basic info on the new S&W SD9/40.
C4
http://gunnuts.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/sdpistols.jpg
http://gunnuts.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/sd-features.jpg
Up graded Sigmas or is there more to the design? Either way if well executed . . . could be a good thing. Especially if the trigger rocks.
Suggested retail of $530 suggests Sigma roots.
•SDT™ - Self Defense Trigger for Optimal, Consistent Pull First Round to Last - - - what this turns out to mean will be the secret sauce.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=764001&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15702&isFirearm=Y
Up graded Sigmas or is there more to the design? Either way if well executed . . . could be a good thing. Especially if the trigger rocks.
My sentiment exactly. I just hope that it's just not a cosmetically altered sigma.
Littlelebowski
05-11-10, 08:48
Do they take M&P mags?
jdavis6576
05-11-10, 09:04
There is already a thread on this topic which has some additional information and tons of speculation:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=52334
There is already a thread on this topic which has some additional information and tons of speculation:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=52334
Sorry, missed that thread.
It had very little factual info in it so I will keep this one going and get better facts on the gun.
C4
Got the 411.
This gun is closer to the Sigma than the M&P. The trigger is closer to the M&P than the Sigma though.
It uses the Sigma magazine, is melonited (like the M&P) and has the Tritium front sight.
So for serious use, the M&P will still be the better choice, but this gun will actually be available to LE Dealers where as the Sigma wasn't. This means that S&W DOES believe that it is a improvement to the Sigma. Take that for what its worth.
I am guestimating that I will sell this gun for between $380-$399.
Look for it in the July-August time frame.
C4
Thank you for the info Grant!
Thank you for the info Grant!
You are welcome and glad I could assist.
C4
jdavis6576
05-11-10, 09:42
According to a S&W rep I spoke with last week, some samples should be at the NRA show this weekend in Charlotte. I plan to attend and will try to lay hands on them and take some pics.
It's probably too early to tell, but what do you think makes the SD9 $100 cheaper than the M&P? It's not just the backstraps. I'm wondering if the SD lineup will have fewer parts (some of which will be shared with the M&P) and will lack the reinforced frame that the M&P has. That would make it handle more like a 3rd gen Glock but it may also make it simpler.
I'm really hoping it turns out to be a great gun. I found the Sigmas to have ideal ergonomics for me. If this shares those ergonomics but incorporates the M&P's reliability and durability (and perhaps a better trigger) then it will rock. I'm sure S&W is targeting the large portion of gun-owners who want a good defensive gun yet may not shoot much. I hope that the didn't build this gun to *just* meet their needs (i.e. not durable).
We'll see...
EDIT: Just saw Grant's latest post. Interestingly enough when I called S&W they told me this new gun would not accept Sigma mags. I wonder how this one will turn out then...
It's probably too early to tell, but what do you think makes the SD9 $100 cheaper than the M&P? It's not just the backstraps. I'm wondering if the SD lineup will have fewer parts (some of which will be shared with the M&P) and will lack the reinforced frame that the M&P has. That would make it handle more like a 3rd gen Glock but it may also make it simpler.
Until I look the gun over, I really cannot say. Could be the barrel, sear housing, the amount of MIM parts, back straps, frame material, etc.
I plan on shooting one (to see if I can break it) so I will keep folks up to date on what I find (good and bad).
I'm really hoping it turns out to be a great gun. I found the Sigmas to have ideal ergonomics for me. If this shares those ergonomics but incorporates the M&P's reliability and durability (and perhaps a better trigger) then it will rock. I'm sure S&W is targeting the large portion of gun-owners who want a good defensive gun yet may not shoot much. I hope that the didn't build this gun to *just* meet their needs (i.e. not durable).
We'll see...
Well I don't think we will ever be able to use the word "great gun", but it should be a good option for folks that are on a tight budget or just want a back up to their M&P.
You hit the nail on the head. This gun is meant to be a good option for people that want a HD gun, but aren't going to shoot 5,000rds a year.
C4
MarshallDodge
05-11-10, 10:00
I plan on shooting one (to see if I can break it) so I will keep folks up to date on what I find (good and bad).
Well I don't think we will ever be able to use the word "great gun", but it should be a good option for folks that are on a tight budget or just want a back up to their M&P.
You hit the nail on the head. This gun is meant to be a good option for people that want a HD gun, but aren't going to shoot 5,000rds a year.
C4
That is what I was thinking, a decent gun for a decent price. Unfortunately, most folks don't shoot more than 500 rounds a year but still need a reliable gun to carry.
The SD series looks like a nicely optioned pistol without any frills for a very reasonable price.
Looking forward to your review on how it runs.
That is what I was thinking, a decent gun for a decent price. Unfortunately, most folks don't shoot more than 500 rounds a year but still need a reliable gun to carry.
The SD series looks like a nicely optioned pistol without any frills for a very reasonable price.
Looking forward to your review on how it runs.
Right.
I teach Defensive pistol once a month to about 26 shooters (97% say that they have their CCW). I am constantly amazed at the number of them that view shooting 50-100rds a month as "a lot."
C4
For what it's worth, I found the grip profile of the sigma more comfortable than the g-lock, although I believe the angle is very similar if not identical. I can live with the grip if the gun shoots reliably, accurately and the trigger is at least similar to the M&P. The price isn't bad.
I am guestimating that I will sell this gun for between $380-$399.
Look for it in the July-August time frame.
C4
For that price I think it is worth picking one up to have in the safe. Of course I'll have to see how close these come out to the VTAC but I wouldn't mind grabbing one when their available.
Sorry if this question has already been answered but when are we expecting them to be released?
I see an alarming number of Hi-Points at the range. This would be a better option for the casual/price conscious shooter in need of a self defense handgun.
Sorry if this question has already been answered but when are we expecting them to be released?
July-August is what was posted.
Thanks for the recap m4, sorry for the repeat question.
Thanks for the recap m4, sorry for the repeat question.
No worries man, no worries at all.
S&W has the right train of thought so I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it actually does seem like an interesting concept given all the features and amenities.
Defensive cut sights, textured grip(could use more texturing though), textured thumb and index finger indentations etc.
I owned a Sigma for quite awhile and had no other complaints other than the absolute horrendous trigger. In terms of accuracy it sucked not because it lacked mechanical accuracy but because of the fundamental problems that the trigger presented.
If I knew of a surefire way to remove some material from the sides of the trigger as well as take away the grit and lighten the pull I'd definitely be inclined to purchase one. (Granted that these two guns are similiar)
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