View Full Version : AR - Home invasion by Police imposters, woman shot.(VIDEO)
I think this will lead to some interesting discussion, try to stay on topic. In no way is this a thread to slander, bash, insult or denegrate LEOs or private citizens for their actions, except the bad guys. ;) This is a place for us to learn from other's experiences and what works, what doesn't and how we can become better prepared to deal with a situation if we're ever confronted with a similar scenario. http://www.fox16.com/news/local/story/Police-imposters-shoot-woman/qTKAUs79DkOzMbGvTUZfew.cspx?rss=315
Police are looking for three men who posed as police officers and forced their way into a Little Rock home. They came in demanding cash and shot the homeowner, Rachel Woods, in the leg.
"Two were masked and grabbed her by the hair, the alarm went off and they were going to shoot her in the face," says neighbor Julena Keddie.
Just after 10 Monday night, neighbor Julena Keddie rushed to help her neighbor. Woods was in her house with her two children when three men started banging on the door and yelling Little Rock police.
"These three men were impatient. They kicked this door in, but police say the best thing Rachel did was set her alarm. When it went off, it scared them away."
"She was hysterical. She was just more worried about her kids," says Keddie.
Before they ran off, one of them shot Rachel in the leg. Then asked her ''Where's the money?" She told them she didn't have any.
"We had just gone to bed when we heard gunshots. We came outside and heard Rachel yelling, 'help me, help me I've been shot.'"
Two of the men were wearing T-shirts with "POLICE." The third had on a fake badge.
"It's very disturbing when a criminal uses the word police, especially Little Rock police, to commit a crime," says Lieutenant Terry Hastings.
When police catch the men, they will be charged with several crimes including aggravated robbery and impersonating a police officer. All three are described as 20 to 30 years old. The men took off in a green SUV. If you have any information you are asked to contact the police.
ThirdWatcher
04-23-10, 03:46
I'd like to see mandatory sentencing enhancements (similar to firearms enhancements) for crimes committed by criminals masquerading as police. ;)
Humpty_Dumpty
04-23-10, 04:43
It's a sad reality of living in South Africa, but here there's a good chance that if someone wearing a shirt reading "POLICE' and displaying a Police badge comes into your home and shoots and robs you that they are actually the real Police. :(
QuietShootr
04-23-10, 06:25
This one won't last long.
This would be an interesting discussion, as long as it doesn't get out of hand. I'm curious about this as well. Outside of them having the wrong house, I'm absolutely sure that legitimate, actual LE would have no reason to do a no-knock raid on my house. So I can be 99.999999% sure that someone knocking down my front door and yelling police isn't the real deal. Would I still hesitate to act? I hope not.
Pseudo cops are a problem down this way as well...no one knocks our real leo because of it. The problem for both civi's and leo is the confusion of 'knowing' 100% who is bashing in your door.
I can say 95% of the time (in this area), the bad guys usually prey on other thugs who have dope and or $$$$ in the home....at least that is the perception of the news coverage.
Littlelebowski
04-23-10, 10:02
This would be an interesting discussion, as long as it doesn't get out of hand. I'm curious about this as well. Outside of them having the wrong house, I'm absolutely sure that legitimate, actual LE would have no reason to do a no-knock raid on my house. So I can be 99.999999% sure that someone knocking down my front door and yelling police isn't the real deal. Would I still hesitate to act? I hope not.
Sadly, there's numerous cases of plain clothes no-knock warrants on the wrong houses and private citizens suffering as a result.
CarlosDJackal
04-23-10, 10:30
Sadly, there's numerous cases of plain clothes no-knock warrants on the wrong houses and private citizens suffering as a result.
Yup. It's up to the Police to make sure that (a) They act on information that they at least verify as plausible; (b) They cross-reference the name on the warrant with the name on the residence and that they try to reconcile any differences; and (c) They double-check that the residence they are about to storm is the correct residence in the first place.
IMHO, if ALL the LE Departments were to use proper procedure before executing a no-knock warrant; the chances of these mistakes will be minimized or eliminated.
One of the things I have often thought about is what happens if something like this (no-knock warrant mistakenly executed at my home) were to happen to me? Knowing that I have not committed a crime that would warrant such an action, there is a good chance I would not believe that those executing it were not legitimate LEOs (unless I happen to recognize one or more of them) and would probably defend myself and my home.
Littlelebowski
04-23-10, 10:34
And that's the problem I worry about as well, Carlos, particularly with my dogs. Sadly, with a mistaken plain clothes no-knock warrant, yours odds of either shooting a plain clothes officer or being shot by one and having your dogs killed are extremely high.
Plain clothes no-knock warrants are bad for the most part but it does give our paramilitary cops a chance to play tactical and justify their own existence.
At my agency, we utilize the swat team for search warrants, specifically because we knock and announce and there is no mistaking the shear presence on the street of agency vehicles and personnel. From an officer safety standpoint I feel it's far safer to knock and announce. The potential loss of life from a no knock going bad FAR outweighs any potential loss of evidence. JMHO :cool:
Littlelebowski
04-23-10, 10:53
Are you guys in uniform, DeltaG21?
This happens quite a bit in Phoenix, but it is usually the Mexicans extorting or kidnapping other Mexicans.
That's a a scary thought though, when you don't know who is coming through the door and almost puts us in the same position as soldiers in Iraq. Namely, is the person I am looking at actually a threat and do I shoot and risk the possibility of prison/death sentence down the road or a death sentence right here, right now if I don't act?
It wouldn't be fun, but I would think that I could deal with a few thugs trying to kick in the door. But the popo don't bring just a couple of guys with them. Fire on the first one through the door and chances are the other 12 won't let you walk out of there.
There's quite a few cases of wrong house, wrong person with citizens either in jail or dead after botched no-knock raids. I might not be doing anything illegal, but the house next door (or 1234 West something when I live at 1234 East something) might not be so upstanding.
NCPatrolAR
04-23-10, 10:58
Plain clothes no-knock warrants are bad for the most part but it does give our paramilitary cops a chance to play tactical and justify their own existence.
Can it right now. This type of comment is whats going to lead this thread down the path to getting locked.
NCPatrolAR
04-23-10, 11:04
This happens quite a bit in Phoenix, but it is usually the Mexicans extorting or kidnapping other Mexicans.
That's a a scary thought though, when you don't know who is coming through the door and almost puts us in the same position as soldiers in Iraq. Namely, is the person I am looking at actually a threat and do I shoot and risk the possibility of prison/death sentence down the road or a death sentence right here, right now if I don't act?
It wouldn't be fun, but I would think that I could deal with a few thugs trying to kick in the door. But the popo don't bring just a couple of guys with them. Fire on the first one through the door and chances are the other 12 won't let you walk out of there.
There's quite a few cases of wrong house, wrong person with citizens either in jail or dead after botched no-knock raids. I might not be doing anything illegal, but the house next door (or 1234 West something when I live at 1234 East something) might not be so upstanding.
Here's a hint. If the people kicking in your door are are yelling "where's the money", "wheres the drugs", or similar phrases there is a very good chance they arent the police.
If you look at most of these fake police home invasions, they are targeted toward dope dealers, criminals, and sometimes towards illegals (at least in this area). The people doing them are typically not dressed remotely alike (most officers will appear somewhat the same), are few in number (most agencies I know arent going to hit a house with less than 8-10 officers), make odd demands (see above), etc.
Here's a hint...
Of the few explosive situations I've been in, I could hardly tell you what was said or exactly what happened when it started. My own fear of confusion is that two seconds when the door is kicked in and the first guy is coming through. I haven't had a home invasion or a warrant executed, but I would think that by the time the demands came out it would be well past instinctual reaction time.
Wonder what would happen if I was mistakenly no-knocked(wrong house) and I killed several officers without being killed myself? Would I go to jail? Not looking for a definite yes/no. Just thoughts.
Wonder what would happen if I was mistakenly no-knocked(wrong house) and I killed several officers without being killed myself? Would I go to jail? Not looking for a definite yes/no. Just thoughts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye
This guy wasn't mistakenly raided even though whether or not they should've been there in the first place was questioned. His case basically came down to the belief that they did announce themselves as police so his actions were not justified.
NCPatrolAR
04-23-10, 11:46
but I would think that by the time the demands came out it would be well past instinctual reaction time.
From what I've seen; those demands are being said as they enter the house and try to gain control of all of the victims.
pilotguyo540
04-23-10, 12:01
Here is where the bad guys can get a serious psycological advantage. Regular people wont shoot a cop.
Imagine you are at home doing what ever. Its a peaceful day and you are just a regular joe. Your door gets kicked in and you hear "POLICE!" A normal person should put their hands up or get on the floor. Imagine for a second that this was not actually the police. Good people suffer home invasions every now and then too. You hesitate because you think it is the police, and by the time you learn otherwise, it is way too late.
I think BG's using the cop bit is crossing a line. Shit like that will end up getting cops killed. I agree with the enhanced sentencing for this way more than for having a gun in offence of another crime.
Here's a hint. If the people kicking in your door are are yelling "where's the money", "wheres the drugs", or similar phrases there is a very good chance they arent the police.
What if they're yelling police? After they've got "control" of the situation in their "dynamic entry" it would be too late for you to defend yourself. I believe due to the initial confusion and the oh shit factor that you've lost your opportunity to defend yourself.
What if the real police don't announce themselves?I know that there are many cases where the real police have made mistakes on innocent people's houses and people have been shot and killed resulting in a tragic loss of life. I also know there are many recorded cases where police imposters have conducted their own "raids" and people have been seriously injured or killed. How do you distinguish between the 2 as a law abiding citizen in your house?
Most of the regulars on this board are armed the vast majority of the time or have easy access to weapons in their home or wherever they're at. I'm sure in a lot of situations where a no knock raid occurs and a mistaken residence is entered there would be a gun fight and the resident would be on the losing end. The problem being is the mindset of the police and the person of the residence when the door frame is splintering. I believe we all have similar mindsets in the fact that we'll defend not only ourselves, our loved ones and in the case of the police their fellow officers.
Again, let's try to keep this civil and no cop bashing. I'm hoping we can make it past one page without this being shut down as there is valuable information that can be learned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye
This guy wasn't mistakenly raided even though whether or not they should've been there in the first place was questioned. His case basically came down to the belief that they did announce themselves as police so his actions were not justified.
Please try to refrain from posting articles about botched raids. We all know it happens and people can do their own research if they're inclined to learn more. The only thing that will come from posting articles such as this is people's blood getting heated on both sides of the aisle which will result in this thread getting closed. Thanks.
NCPatrolAR
04-23-10, 13:00
What if they're yelling police? After they've got "control" of the situation in their "dynamic entry" it would be too late for you to defend yourself. I believe due to the initial confusion and the oh shit factor that you've lost your opportunity to defend yourself.
I wouldnt say you've lost the opportunity to defend yourself. You may be playing deeper behind the power-curve, but honestly you are behind it the minute your doors flies open and you arent already doing something.
What if the real police don't announce themselves?I know that there are many cases where the real police have made mistakes on innocent people's houses and people have been shot and killed resulting in a tragic loss of life. I also know there are many recorded cases where police imposters have conducted their own "raids" and people have been seriously injured or killed. How do you distinguish between the 2 as a law abiding citizen in your house?
If you become familiar with the way the police conduct operations such as dynamic warrant services, hopefully it will give you an edge. Typically, it isnt going to take the police multiple kicks (since we dont kick external doors) to conduct the breach. If a breach is made, it is ultimately up to you to decide if you need to shoot or not.
If you want to limit the chances of this happening you can do things such as:
know your neighbors
dont be involved in criminal activity or associate with criminals
harden the entry points to your residence
have good lighting around your home
have your address clearing marked on the outside of the home
Ultimately it boils down to the usual things when it comes to using lethal force. Be able to clearly articulate why you did what you did and why you used what you used to do it.
Littlelebowski
04-23-10, 13:08
This talk of the very real threat of mistaken addresses has pushed me over to actually getting on with my home video camera setup. That seems to be the best way of getting a fair shake if something happens whether it be thugs or a mistaken police raid.
Please try to refrain from posting articles about botched raids.
Sure thing, but I must point out that I posted it because it was not a botched raid and was legally obtained and executed on the correct house. The case's hinging point was whether or not he was justified in shooting out of fear for his life and if the jury believed that an announcement was made.
Point taken, subject dropped.
A couple kids I went to school with did some home invasion robberies on drug dealers in 1997 where they identified themselves as cops during the robberies.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/wa-supreme-court/1145564.html
There was also a shooting in Pierce County I think in 95, Pierce County deputies served a warrant on a drug dealer named Brian Eggleston. A deputy named John Bananola was killed during the raid and there were some allegations by the defense that they were not properly dressed/identifiable as deputies at the time of the shooting during the subsequent murder trial.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/wa-court-of-appeals/1298301.html
The things these two incidents have in common is the guy being robbed/raided is a drug dealer and the badguys/police might not have looked much like police. The more incidents like this happen the more I think the cops change their procedures to be more readily identifiable as the police. I guess in the unlikely event this ever happens to you when you aren't a drug dealer you just have to use your best judgement as to whether or not criminals could realistically be doing what is being done (in terms of number of people, equipment, skills, etc.) like a previous poster stated.
If you want to limit the chances of this happening you can do things such as:
1. know your neighbors
2. dont be involved in criminal activity or associate with criminals
3. harden the entry points to your residence
4. have good lighting around your home
5. have your address clearing marked on the outside of the home
Ultimately it boils down to the usual things when it comes to using lethal force. Be able to clearly articulate why you did what you did and why you used what you used to do it.
I think this may be an oversimplification although I do understand where you're coming from. I've numbered them to help address them and make more sense of what I'm writing in response.
1. Knowing your neighbors doesn't always mean anything. I'm sure there's a plethora of criminals who live next door to people who wave hi to them on a consistent basis and have no idea about their activites.
2. Being involved with criminal activity is off topic due to the fact that we're talking about criminals invading your home or police mistakently raiding your house. If you're a criminal than they should be there in most instances.
3. I would agree with this for any law abiding citizen. There's a reason castles had moats and other things to keep bad guys out. I firmly believe an alarm system along with a good dog does a lot to keep a family safe and provide early warning.
4. The good lighting is a good deterrance for the common criminal. I'm not sure how it would play in the given scenarios of this thread.
5. The address being marked is good not only for police but also firefighters and paramedics in the event you need them. Not to mention the pizza delivery guy. :D
Being able to articulate why you used lethal force when a criminal is entering your residence is very different than if police entered your house by mistake. If they are mistakenly entering your house and they see a gun you're dead or full of holes. If you survive you will be charged and face prosecution.
I agree with the majority of what you've said and I do think the chances are very slim that this will ever happen to anyone of us. With that being said I think the chances of needing 3 magazines in our chest rig, a BUG and battle belt to go with our pistol and AR should the SHTF and zombies invade are pretty slim for most of us as well.
I do think this is an interesting topic but now I need to board a plane. My work's done in PHX and it's time to get home to the wifey. Stay safe!
as Gary mentioned this is happening more and more in phoenix
and yes it is mostly criminal against criminal but to me its a matter of time till its not !!
a friend from my girls school had her home broken into ! their was a string of home invasions happening and her neighbor got wacked on the head and stuffed in the closet with her kids !
a matter of time I say till its the norm ! the scary thing is quite a few hear have found to have bullet proof vests on etc...
as far as the real police on my door ? I doubt it and busting in my front door wont be easy might give me a few extra moments to think and prepare ?
QuietShootr
04-23-10, 15:26
This talk of the very real threat of mistaken addresses has pushed me over to actually getting on with my home video camera setup. That seems to be the best way of getting a fair shake if something happens whether it be thugs or a mistaken police raid.
Supercircuits.com - and make sure you're streaming to an offsite server. Won't do you a lot of good if your stored video is 'inaccessible' to you for whatever reason.
Seen a recent surge in this tactic by rival dope dealers. It is happening more often (often under-reported because the "victims" happen to be engaged in illegal activities and don't want to report it to LE).
"Hi, I want to report my dope and narcotics proceeds stolen." :D :p ;)
It IS unfortunate when the victims aren't dope dealers. Especially when the bad guys go around impersonating LE to raid the homes of law abiding folks to commit B&Es. Those bad guys are praying on the citizens' "trust" of LE.
Sucks that Joe Dirtbag can order up a plethora of "police" patches/shirts/hats on the web or visit certain brick/mortar stores and equip themselves with pseudo-LE gear to conduct these raids and rob people. :(
NCPatrolAR offered up some good advice on how to avoid being the "wrong target." Generally speaking, a fully marked patrol car will often be utilized as well during a legitimate raid (not always the case, but often a good idea to avoid confusion and liability, YMMV).
Not gonna touch the topic of no-knock warrants with a 10 ft pole. :D
bubabootie
04-24-10, 06:10
I'd like to see mandatory sentencing enhancements (similar to firearms enhancements) for crimes committed by criminals masquerading as police. ;)
I'm with ya! I mean, you're violating a sacred trust by impersonating a peace officer, just like you'd be violating the sacred trust of being a (legal) firearm owner.
Are you guys in uniform, DeltaG21?
Yes, for search warrants, the entry team is in uniform, though others on scene are not.
A similar incident in New Jersey popped up in the news. http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2010/05/men_dressed_as_sheriffs_office.html
NORTH BERGEN -- Two men posing as sheriff's officers robbed a home in the township early this morning, police said.
When the two suspects knocked on the door of an apartment at a multi-dwelling house on the 6200 block of Meadowview Avenue at around 1 a.m., they identified themselves as sheriff's officers, flashed gold-colored badges, and were let into the apartment by a 56-year-old male resident, reports said.
The robbers put the man into plastic handcuffs and moved him, his wife, and another relative into a bedroom while they searched the house, reports said.
The robbers, who never showed a weapon, left with a wedding band and a laptop computer, reports said.
Cops responded to the scene at 1:24 a.m. and are investigating the incident.
This is a scenario I have thought about before, because there really is no way to completely avoid it. I hope and pray it never happens, but I have analyzed it to "battle drill" the situation and determine my response prior to a real situation. This avoids indecision.
This could happen to any one of us, whether law abiding or not, real police or not. I have no reason for police to raid my house, so if someone comes through the door in the middle of the night, I'd have to assume their bad guys, no matter what they say or what they are wearing. Anyone that comes up the stairs to the bedroom level is going to have to be treated as a threat, because I believe any delay in action could jeopardize my family. I honestly doubt I would be able to react quickly enough to a well executed entry team (most likely a sign of a legitimate team), but there is always a possibility.
The occupant (me) is already at a time disadvantage because the entry is unexpected and I am sleeping/not expecting the situation. By the time I get my handgun from the gunvault next to the bed, very little reaction time would remain to successfully protect my family. In the low light scenario, especially considering anyone coming up the stairs would most likely be using a flashlight of some type, identifying friend or foe would not be successful until after that person had more than sufficient time to fire first.
To me, this is a worst case scenario that I hope I never encounter. I do believe that instances of this type of tactic will continue with the bad guys even starting to dress more like actual LEO because the recent increase in our shooting sports has increased the available of this type of tactical gear and the Army's change in uniform provided a lot of inexpensive BDU colored gear in the surplus stores.
Just my .02, and like I already mentioned, I hope I never face this situation for real.
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