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Iraq Ninja
04-23-10, 14:42
This week I got fitted with a knee brace after falling on my patella during our fitness test run last month (full kit, weapon, boots, helmet, etc). My knee is structurally sound, with just some fluid behind and knee and some weakened ligaments. I got up and finished the test in time, and I am sure it didn't help my injury...

Well, I am amazed how well the knee brace works, and it got me thinking about using them in high risk situations. I know that football players have used them before, but I don't know what the current research is showing.

We have boots with ankle support, so why not knee support?

I thought it might be interesting if someone came up with a knee brace and knee pad that can be used as a prophylactic to injury in a tactical environment. Of course, it will have to be in multicam :).

BTW, I was unable to have an MRI done due to some shrapnel in my legs. What is the risk of having metal during an MRI?

arbninftry
04-23-10, 15:13
Theoretically on a closed MRI it will pull it out. I have pins in my knees and ALL cadaver ligaments. You can go with an Open MRI and you will be good. Don Joy or Bregg make a couple of athletic knee braces, but you are really better looking around, finding what suits you then get someone to fit you with what will work. You might even end up with 5 or 6 different ones for whatever your doing. Obviously, standing in a turret on a M2 is going to require something different than sitting in a front seat of a uparmored vehicle. keep in mind they all slip down, you will end up wearing it on the outside of your pants like I did in Iraq. Just so you can constantly adjust them.

QuietShootr
04-23-10, 18:43
BTW, I was unable to have an MRI done due to some shrapnel in my legs. What is the risk of having metal during an MRI?


Screening for intra-orbital metallic foreign bodies prior to MRI: Review of the evidence
Purchase the full-text article



References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.

William Baileya and Leslie Robinsonb, Corresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author

aMRI, Leighton Hospital, Middlewich Road, Cheshire CW1 4QJ, UK

bRadiography Department, University of Salford, Frederick Road, Salford, Greater Manchester M6 6PU, UK
Received 12 April 2005;
accepted 7 September 2005.
Available online 1 December 2005.

Abstract

Magnetic resonance imaging of patients with a metallic Intra-Orbital Foreign Body (IOFB) may be hazardous.

Much controversy exists with regard to the optimum initial screening protocol to be undertaken which will ensure patients with metallic IOFBs do not enter the MR controlled area.

Once a patient has been screened as ‘at risk’, further variations in practice exist with regard to optimum imaging modality and radiographic technique to rule out the FB. This is due to a paucity of empirical research which is diverse in approach and conclusion.

MR radiographers are developing their role and, as advanced practitioners, will find themselves increasingly involved in decision-making with regard to patient safety. Although it may feel a comfortable option to request a radiograph on all patients who pose a dilemma, MR radiographers need to be able to defend such a course of action through a thorough understanding of the financial and dose implications as discussed in the literature.

This review will highlight some of the arguments both for and against screening patients for metallic IOFB and consider the radiographic screening options for ‘at risk’ patients.

Keywords: Metallic IOFB; MRI safety; Orbital FB


This one made me LOL:
http://mrimetaldetector.com/media/downloads/MAUDE-Knife.pdf

This one might not buff out:
http://mrimetaldetector.com/media/downloads/MAUDE-Scissors.pdf

Ow:
http://mrimetaldetector.com/blog/2010/01/gurney-crashes-mri-patient-injured-hospital-fined-50k/#more-739

And my personal favorite:
Spontaneous Discharge of a Firearm in an MRI Environment (http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/full/178/5/1092)

Translation: Big Scary Magnet in Operation. Don't Come In Here With ****ing Ferromagnetic Metal Anywhere On Or In Your Body!

bkb0000
04-23-10, 19:08
my understanding that the only metal that's effected by MRI is magnetic metal- steel, iron. lead and copper shouldn't effect it at all, but i don't know what kind of shrapnel you have. i'm also not a doctor, but it was an MRI technician that told me that.

i would imagine that the consequences would be PAIN, but not much else, in your leg.

Iraq Ninja
04-23-10, 19:57
my understanding that the only metal that's effected by MRI is magnetic metal- steel, iron. lead and copper shouldn't effect it at all, but i don't know what kind of shrapnel you have.

It was a PKM round that broke partially apart when it went thru my vehicle before it smacked me. I assume it would mostly be lead.

The Doc said I really didn't have to do the MRI since the xray was good.

I will look around and see what other types are for sale here, maybe one specific to sports?

QuietShootr
04-23-10, 20:02
It was a PKM round that broke partially apart when it went thru my vehicle before it smacked me. I assume it would mostly be lead.

The Doc said I really didn't have to do the MRI since the xray was good.

I will look around and see what other types are for sale here, maybe one specific to sports?

Could be a steel jacket or a fragment of mild steel core? I imagine having it yanked OUT probably wouldn't hurt more than the putting it in, it would just be a concern that it get pulled through something important on its way out.

Anyway - sorry for the hijack. I'm not sure why I find big scary magnets funny, but there it is :D

bkb0000
04-23-10, 20:04
Could be a steel jacket or a fragment of mild steel core? I imagine having it yanked OUT probably wouldn't hurt more than the putting it in, it would just be a concern that it get pulled through something important on its way out.

Anyway - sorry for the hijack. I'm not sure why I find big scary magnets funny, but there it is :D

would it seriously come OUT? i just figured it'd shift and hurt and possibly do some minor local damage..

QuietShootr
04-23-10, 20:47
would it seriously come OUT? i just figured it'd shift and hurt and possibly do some minor local damage..


Read some of those links I posted. An MRI yanked a Colt Officer's out of a man's grip and fired it without dropping the hammer. Another one had a pair of scissors pulled out of a tech's pocket and buried it in his head deep enough to require surgery...just because he was dumb enough to be in the same room with a ferromagnetic object and unfortunate enough to be between it and the magnet.

There is a concern that steel dust/filings embedded in an eye could be pulled out with enough force to avulse a cornea. A steel 7.62 jacket is plenty large enough for that thing to grab and pull out.

Iraq Ninja
04-26-10, 23:46
Looks like someone already designed what I was thinking about...


http://www.betterbraces.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/d/o/donjoy-impact-guard-knee-and-shin-protector_1_1.jpg

I think this may be of use to folks with bad knees, humping big loads, in bad lands...

I am not sure if my knee will ever be the same, especially at my age.

R.D.
04-28-10, 09:14
Looks like someone already designed what I was thinking about...


http://www.betterbraces.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/d/o/donjoy-impact-guard-knee-and-shin-protector_1_1.jpg

I think this may be of use to folks with bad knees, humping big loads, in bad lands...

I am not sure if my knee will ever be the same, especially at my age.

Thanks for the follow up on your search for a " tactical prophylactic" knee brace. I am sorry to hear about your fall and impressed with your resilience and tenacity in being able to finish your run.

Could you please provide a link to the source of the brace you found above? I recently had a work related fall from about 10' and have some hairline fractures as well as sprains ,strains and contusions to my knee and elbow and could use something like that brace( I already have a brace but without the knee protection) to get back into the training /practice game without as much fear of re injury. Of course this would be after I am cleared by my physical therapist to do so. I have tried my arcterx knee caps in conjunction with my brace but it is an imperfect solution as far as I can tell with my limited range of motion I am currently experiencing.

Iraq Ninja
04-28-10, 09:27
Robert,

The brace shown is a DonJoy. You can go to donjoy.com (donjoy.com)or here...

http://www.betterbraces.com/knee-braces/rigid-hinged-braces

As for me, my motivation was mostly monetary. If you fail the run, you loose your job lol. More than a few folks have gotten hurt on it for various reasons.

120mm
04-28-10, 12:14
Robert,

The brace shown is a DonJoy. You can go to donjoy.com (donjoy.com)or here...

http://www.betterbraces.com/knee-braces/rigid-hinged-braces

As for me, my motivation was mostly monetary. If you fail the run, you loose your job lol. More than a few folks have gotten hurt on it for various reasons.

That's a chain of command that needs beaten until dead. WTF would you do that to folks?

I never got those "fully armored physical agility/destroy your body" tests.

R.D.
04-28-10, 16:19
Robert,

The brace shown is a DonJoy. You can go to donjoy.com (donjoy.com)or here...

http://www.betterbraces.com/knee-braces/rigid-hinged-braces

As for me, my motivation was mostly monetary. If you fail the run, you loose your job lol. More than a few folks have gotten hurt on it for various reasons.

Thanks for the links. Do you think that the brace might be a liability in a operational environment? Snagging on things without a breakaway feature for instance.

I understand about doing things that you don't necessarily want to do but have to in order to keep your job. It is still quite a feat to finish a run in full kit after an injury in training/testing. I suppose it could be a good thing to do in your line of work in training, i.e. fight through the pain to complete the task.

I had a ladder slip out from under me as I was stepping on to it from a height of aprox. 10' (gutter line of a 1 story attached garage). In my case the MRI I had done of my knee showed a hairline fracture and microfractures of the tibial plateau that didn't show up in the Xrays.

Can you provide any insight into the reasoning behind PT tests in full kit. It seems, as 120mm pointed out, to be likely to cause injuries that could otherwise be prevented. Is it confidence building as in you know all of your teammates can all do it as well as yourself or something to be used to make clients more confident in your teams ability? It seems , from reading your posts on your kit, that your team has some latitude in choosing the 1st and 2nd line that works for them so could it be to proof your gear or is individual kit choice more "big boy rules"? Just curious.

Iraq Ninja
04-28-10, 17:15
I don't see much of an issue with knee braces in my work environment. Mine is thin enough that I can wear it under my flightsuit.

Our fitness test is based on something the SAS does in their selection, but with a more generous time requirement. Actually, this test makes more sense than the standard US Army test since pushups, situps, and a run have little bearing on combat fitness.

Running with your kit tells you a lot about how well it is set up. Currently the big trend I see with PSD folks is to take as much kit off the vest and put it on the belt. This transfers more weight off of the shoulders and onto the hips. This setup works well on the test too.

BTW, motocross is another sport that uses knee braces and they are a bit more affordable...

R.D.
04-28-10, 19:57
Thanks Iraq Ninja for the info. 10-4 on your brace being low profile(I was picturing mine) and the fitness test being more practical than US Military testing standards. I am tracking with you about running in full kit. I have seen lots of people loose stuff in training, myself included from a med. Maxpedition dump pouch, when running between firing positions and took it as an lesson on how important it is to run as part of proofing my kit from loss.

I have been trying to move as much of my kit on my 1st line as possible. It seems to be a trend in civy circles as well. It was kinda difficult to set up as I am cross dominant, left eye dominant right handed, my rifle mostly is shot lefty, with a pistol I shoot right handed. It works very well now that I sorted it out. It helps that I have a 38" waist :).

Rated21R
04-28-10, 20:34
One of the guys I ski with has some braces he wears (he snowboards and is on older guy) they had pads built in I believe. I need to see if I can find them.

Six Feet Under
04-28-10, 23:47
Would they have the same thing for elbows as knees? I may end up needing an elbow brace after getting shot last year as it totally screwed my elbow/humerus up, but I can't let that stop me from doing PT and rejoining the police academy.

El Mac
04-28-10, 23:57
Robert,

The brace shown is a DonJoy. You can go to donjoy.com (donjoy.com)or here...

http://www.betterbraces.com/knee-braces/rigid-hinged-braces

As for me, my motivation was mostly monetary. If you fail the run, you loose your job lol. More than a few folks have gotten hurt on it for various reasons.

Are your knee/shin pads part of the brace itself or did you add that somehow?

Iraq Ninja
04-29-10, 00:11
Are your knee/shin pads part of the brace itself or did you add that somehow?

That is not my brace, but DonJoy sells the pad to go with it.