223/5.56 Ammo. dryiny up quickly

[flanker]

Seems the 223/5.56 Ammo. is drying up quickly at stores. Was told today Ammo. Mfg.s just can't get the bullets. Seems the price of materials is forcing bullet Mfg. to stop production.:(

[C4IGrant]

Seems the 223/5.56 Ammo. is drying up quickly at stores. Was told today Ammo. Mfg.s just can't get the bullets. Seems the price of materials is forcing bullet Mfg. to stop production.:(

This is true. I have about 10K worth of M193 on order that is supposed to be coming soon (cross fingers).



C4

[invisible man]

m193 is hard to find right now! I assume its due to the war and not politics but it makes me wonder!

[Rock-N-Ruin]

Yep! there seems to be a little shortage of 5.56mm/.223 in this area also.. For the reloaders though, the prices of projectiles seem to be about the same.. I just need to find time to sit down at the bench a little more often.. J.

[docsprague]

I have still not got to the reloading point but it is getting close. It seems like everytime I get ammo I am half afraid to shoot it but like I said only half.

[tinman44]

boxes of 20 went from 6 to 8 bucks. i have decided to get into reloading but of course i have loads of questions <-pun ;) anyways are there any reloaders here that want provide info?

[Submariner]

Seems the 223/5.56 Ammo. is drying up quickly at stores. Was told today Ammo. Mfg.s just can't get the bullets. Seems the price of materials is forcing bullet Mfg. to stop production.:(

Has someone heard this from a real person with a name who works for one of the big three (Federal, Winchester or Remington)? Or Hornady? Or Black Hills? If this is true, why don't they raise the price on loaded ammunition even higher to compensate for the higher cost of materials (bullets)? Or can the bullet manufacturers simply not get the materials (copper and lead) at any price?:confused:

I have not had problems locating new WW (Cabelas) or Hornady (Midway) 55 gr. FMJBT w/c bullets in 6,000 lots other than having to pay a higher price than a year ago. But that's just me.

[jmart]

boxes of 20 went from 6 to 8 bucks. i have decided to get into reloading but of course i have loads of questions <-pun ;) anyways are there any reloaders here that want provide info?

Recommend you do a search, there's been a few reloading threads that cover the basics. After that, fire away with questions.

[Snake RAH]

I should have bought stock in the ammo companies, especially ATK.

[snake_eyes]

Having some trouble here as well (CA) but a buddy of mine was able to buy a few boxes of 20's for a little over $6 at wally world - I'm sure they're all gone by now.

Hopefully things will change soon...

[Paulinski]

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2007/05/iraq-buying-up-to-508m-in-fuel-ammo/index.php

[flanker]

Having some trouble here as well (CA) but a buddy of mine was able to buy a few boxes of 20's for a little over $6 at wally world - I'm sure they're all gone by now.

Hopefully things will change soon...
===
Rem.UMC 223 box of 40rds $17.90 My local firearm store has the last batch of Fiocchi 223 he will be getting for $14 box of 50rds. I bought 10 boxs in last two days. wish I could afford more.:rolleyes:

[NeilsonTactical]

Has someone heard this from a real person with a name who works for one of the big three (Federal, Winchester or Remington)? Or Hornady? Or Black Hills? If this is true, why don't they raise the price on loaded ammunition even higher to compensate for the higher cost of materials (bullets)? Or can the bullet manufacturers simply not get the materials (copper and lead) at any price?:confused:

I have not had problems locating new WW (Cabelas) or Hornady (Midway) 55 gr. FMJBT w/c bullets in 6,000 lots other than having to pay a higher price than a year ago. But that's just me.

I also heard that the "3 majors" are all shifting production away from the civilian market.

At Knob Creek I spoke with several ammo companies and the price is going to keep increasing.... Sucks.

[Bison]

I just bought 5 20rd boxes of .223 Remington UMC 55gr MC at my local big box sporting goods store. Cost was $5.99 per box and that is the best price around these parts. They seemed to have a good bit on the shelves and also had some other boxes in 50 grain hollow points or 45 grain varmint loads. Didn't see any Winchester or Federal. Hopefully, I'll get back next week and pick up some more.

[UVvis]

I'm planning on getting a .22lr upper or two. The issue isn't just price, but availability. I can actually shoot .22lr and get a few thousand rounds any day I plan to go shooting compared to months of waiting for .223 ammo.

As a reloader as well, prices of components are rising as well. Compared to last year at about this time, price per 1000 rounds of components have gone up 20-40 dollars, depending on what you are doing.

My 10/22's are getting a lot more use now as well.

[ffhounddog]

Why does Iraq not buy their ammo from ADCOM right there in the UAE. I know they are willing to sell.

I need to get into the contract ammo loading business. That is alot of ammo.

[Dport]

Why does Iraq not buy their ammo from ADCOM right there in the UAE. I know they are willing to sell.

I need to get into the contract ammo loading business. That is alot of ammo.

Maybe they want good ammo?

[Submariner]

Maybe they want good ammo?

Notice of Possible Foreign Military Sale (http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2007/Iraq_07-20.pdf)

Blow all Saddam's 7.62mmX39, arm new security forces with Colts (to be made in Turkey, instead of Hartford) and sell them 226,000,000 rounds of 5.56mm: domestic ammunition control. Machiavelli could not have done better!:eek:

[Obiwan]

Didn't I read where our military is too politically correct to use IMI ammo in the GWOT:confused:

Then send it my way baby;)

[losbronces]

Lets see, copper is over $3.70/lb right now compared to $0.80/lb in 2003. Thats an increase of over 460%. That effects brass and bullet prices. I guess we are fortunate that ammo prices haven't increased even more dramatically.

All metal prices are up significantly in the last 2-3 years due primarily to increased demand in Asia.

[tinman44]

what do they need blanks for? (i know training) but seriously why cant they just get it from somewhere else, GET OUT OF OUR STOCK!!

edit: you would think in today's society someone would decide producing ammo would be a great business venture and start making money. i mean seriously how many ammo companies are there and why dont they just increase production?

[Armati]

My suspicion is that the war is increasing the demand. I know even most USGI training ammo is coming in commercial packed.

All of the real deal military ammo (on stripper clips, in boxes, in bandoleers, in a steel can, in a wire bound wooden crate) is going to the war. Everything CONUS for training is commercial packed.

Most of the head stamps I have seen are WCC (Winchester) or LC (Federal - Lake City).

Just think of the demand right now. Every unit going to the box is going to shoot a lot of training ammo. Then they will fire more training ammo in country as training sustainment. There will be some fired in actual combat. As NATO expands, our new allies and allies in waiting (can't quite join NATO - yet) are going to 5.56mm and in many cases we supply this ammo until they can get their national armories up to speed. Also, most armies have abandoned 7.62 MBRs for 5.56 assault rifles.

Then you have the US market. The death of the AWB and the war have taken The Black Rifle to a new level for the civilian and LEO shooter. The M16 platform is the undisputed winner for non .mil users too. The demand for 5.56 is higher than it has ever been.

[flanker]

http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2007/Iraq_07-20.pdf

Looks like OUR new Iraq army is needing to buy Ammo. And guess whos money they will use to buy it?:rolleyes: Answer ours:mad:

[AMMOTECH]

Notice of Possible Foreign Military Sale (http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2007/Iraq_07-20.pdf)

Blow all Saddam's 7.62mmX39, arm new security forces with Colts (to be made in Turkey, instead of Hartford) and sell them 226,000,000 rounds of 5.56mm: domestic ammunition control. Machiavelli could not have done better!:eek:


They already have the new rifles. (I think these are made by FN).

http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/IRAQ-6.sff_BAG211_20070513121042.jpg
http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/IRAQ-6.sff_BAG210_20070513121102.jpg

Iraqi Army receives M-16 and M-4 rifles
Blackanthem Military News ^ | May 11, 2007 | Sgt. 1st Class Nicholas Conner, 13th SC(E), LSA ANACONDA PAO


Posted on 05/11/2007 6:44:12 PM PDT by mdittmar


CAMP TAJI, Iraq – At the start of May, Iraqi Army recruits at the Regional Training Center here began receiving new M-16 and M-4 rifles.


The Iraqi government made the decision to crossover from standard AK-47 assault rifles to the American rifles as part of the reshaping of their military and security forces.


Under the program, Coalition Military Assistance Training Teams issue enlisted IA troops the M-16A4, while officers receive the M-4. With 200 basic training recruits per rotation, CMATT officials estimate that 1600 IA soldiers will receive the new weapons by the end of May.


According to Lt. Col. Walter Easter, Military Transition Team commander and senior advisor to the RTC, the exchange is as much a symbol of the new IA as it is an upgrade to the individual soldier’s capabilities.


“The M-16 has long been considered the world’s best rifle,” Easter said. “There’s a high percentage of [Iraqi Army recruits] who can shoot more accurately than we expected just because of the better weapon system that they have.”


The weapon exchange is just the first step in a five-day program of instruction for the Iraqis. However, new rifles are not handed out in a one-for-one swap. Coalition Forces assign each IA recruit a weapon using a high-tech, biometric issue system.


Verified against a master list and having tuned in his old rifle, the IA soldier and his new M-16 continue on to one of ten biometric stations, where he is finger printed, undergoes a digital retinal scan and is photographed with the M16’s serial number. Officials then transfer the information to a database in Baghdad, to ensure accountability and to prevent the weapon from ending up in the wrong hands.


“We are very excited about it,” said a 9th Iraqi Army Division second lieutenant, whose name is withheld to protect his identity. “We have been hearing about getting the new weapons for some time and finally they are here.”


U.S. Department of Defense civilian contractors provide hands-on instruction modeled after the same training American troops receive. Familiar box drills, sight picture training and live-fire weapon zeroing provide consistent and effective basic marksmanship skills.


It does a number of things for the basic IA soldier, said George Conrad, an assistant team leader providing the primary marksmanship instruction. The better weapon system puts the IA forces in sync with coalition troops and it builds their confidence.


Conrad said they have all seen change and new equipment at the higher echelons, but now, the soldier in the dirt has something new, something tangible, in his hands.


“It’s a sign of hope that things are changing,” he said. “It’s something that needed to be done.”


Easter said that training at the Taji RTC would continue at the company-size level, with program augmentation at Besimaya Range later this summer for IA battalions.

[ffhounddog]

I wish uncle suger would give me free ammo and a free M-16.

[AMMOTECH]

I wish uncle suger would give me free ammo and a free M-16.

:D
http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp

[ffhounddog]

Air Force Right now until Sept then I get out. Do not need the Army gig yet maybe go Guard but Active I am done at least my wife wants me to be done.

[ar-15 fanatic]

its because of the war

[Heavy Metal]

dup post

[Heavy Metal]

Lets see, copper is over $3.70/lb right now compared to $0.80/lb in 2003. Thats an increase of over 460%. That effects brass and bullet prices. I guess we are fortunate that ammo prices haven't increased even more dramatically.


No we are not, this cannot account for the majority of the cost increase.


The raw materials cost does not even approach 50% of the cost of a case of 5.56. There may be 10 pounds of copper at most in a 100k case of 5.56. That makes $37 of copper in a case. The other 20 or so pounds are lead and powder. Copper is by far the most espensive raw material in the price.

[losbronces]

Fair enough, but rising materials cost increases are always a good excuse to raise prices. Also, its not just 5.56 that has increased in price. There is no doubt that current deployments (and training) are consuming a lot of 5.56 ammo. But prices are also up substantially on nonmillitary rounds like 40 S&W.

[Submariner]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/DasBoot56/chart_us_dollar.gif

The dollar is down by over 30% since 2002. Our .gov prints them to pay for stuff and they become worth less.

China has over 1 trillion of these depreciating dollars in reserves as well. When they enter the market place to buy raw materials, it bids up the price, just as Iraq.gov buying 5.56mm with newly printed dollars bids up the price.

Anyone get a 30% raise lately? Thought so.:(

[tinman44]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/DasBoot56/chart_us_dollar.gif

The dollar is down by over 30% since 2002. Our .gov prints them to pay for stuff and they become worth less.

China has over 1 trillion of these depreciating dollars in reserves as well. When they enter the market place to buy raw materials, it bids up the price, just as Iraq.gov buying 5.56mm with newly printed dollars bids up the price.

Anyone get a 30% raise lately? Thought so.:(

what you just said is so true it made me cringe

[flanker]

Lets face it we are in a mess.:(

[gunny]

I guess I'm lucky. I rarely pay for ammo, but I just stocked up on two 500 round cases of AE .223 55 grain FMJBT from sportsmanguide.com for $160 each to train with off duty. Better buy now before it gets worse folks.

[Cold Zero]

submariner and his graph are correct. the dollar is in the toilet bowl. i feel this is mainly due to the u.s. being a consumer nation and not a producer nation. as such, the trade defecit is overwhelmingly huge and is affecting everything.

no change in site and i hear the sucking sound of going down the drain. buy gold, not dollars...

[rhino]

submariner and his graph are correct. the dollar is in the toilet bowl. i feel this is mainly due to the u.s. being a consumer nation and not a producer nation. as such, the trade defecit is overwhelmingly huge and is affecting everything.

I'm curious ... and I'm no international economics scholar ... but is the EU overall a producer, or haven't they also shifted to consuming and providing services for the most part? If that's the case, they should be in a similar boat to us, and I don't understand why the Euro dollar would be doing well vs the USD for the reason of our trade deficit.

I wonder how much the currency markets are actually manipulated with malevolent intent (toward America) by the other big players.

[Submariner]

https://www.kisermunitions.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=186


Originally Posted By JKiser:

Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:
I'm confused how is this a group buy? It looks more like a sale to me. Not trying to stir shit I'm honestly confused and interested. Thanks.

The ammo sells for $439 usually...I price it at $399 to move it...the group buy is $329. There have been "problems" with group buys (involving ammo) in the past. So, they were hesitant to approve the group buy.

I have done at least 120 hours worth of work to make this project happen. It took Black Hills 13 months to deliver this ammo. I fronted all of the money and received all of the ammo ahead of time...just for this group buy. The result: pay money and get ammo. What could be simpler?

Or..in other words: This is the best thought-out, properly executed Group Buy to have ever occured on [TOS]! [:D]

Hope this helps someone with cash.:(

[Voodoochild]

https://www.kisermunitions.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=186

FYI he is having a group buy with that ammo on TOS. $329/1000

[Cesiumsponge]

The dollar is falling because we just arbitrarily print more to pay off debts. Money is no longer based with a sound fiscal foundation (ie gold). It's become a promissory note...more of an IOU. That might be fine and dandy in practice until you abuse it severely because now we have WAY MORE paper dollars than we have actual worth to back up that promise. When you arbitrarily print more money without the financial backing, then you devalue the worth of a dollar across the board.

Ron Paul calls it the sinister "inflation tax" because everything you own is devalued because it's all based on the US dollar. The government printing trillions of dollars to pay for its own bills is much easier than paying it with trillions of dollars of goods.

[Cold Zero]

rhino;

i am no economics prof'. but, like was said above i feel that the dollar is devalueing due to $1 used to be backed by $1 worth of gold, now the ratio is much greater and coupled with the trade defecit you have the graph posted above.

historically, not too many years ago the u.s. dollar for many decades bought about $1.50 canadian, today $1.20-1.30 canadian.

i feel that 10-20 years from now china will be a super power and we may no longer will be...

[Txs]

Ammo is of course being diverted to the war, but that doesn't account for all calibers increasing. The fact is that our ammo prices are going up due to the price of copper slowly but surely going through the roof.

It's true that Asia's demand is growing, but they are known to have vast copper resources, particularly in Mongolia.

Ever wonder who owns those large copper mines in Chile that supply the vast majority of the US market? Drum roll.....your old buddy Exxon!







.-

[cpekz]

i feel that 10-20 years from now china will be a super power and we may no longer will be...

Hopefully we won't allow that to happen.

[Submariner]

Ron Paul calls it the sinister "inflation tax" because everything you own is devalued because it's all based on the US dollar. The government printing trillions of dollars to pay for its own bills is much easier than paying it with trillions of dollars of goods extracted from productive taxpayers.

Governments create no wealth. Government sells assets previously seized, taxes, borrows, or "prints" money to pay its ever-increasing bills for war and welfare. "Printing" means that bonds which cannot be sold are "monetized" by the central bank, i.e. that bank "buys" them with a check made good by crediting money (magic) to their own checking account.

If you or I did this, it would be counterfeiting, fraud or both.

Think of an auction (free market) for ammo. Then imagine one bidder (.gov) can manufacture its own money and bid; other bidders must work, be taxed and save for their bids. Who will get the ammo? Will the money the other bidders slaved and saved for be worth more or less than at the beginning of the auction?

Now, ATK has contracts to produce ammo for the .mil and is paid with the "printed" money. [Note: We may get access some of the sweepings off the floor.] ATK uses the money to bid up the price for components which all ammo manufacturers must buy. The federales of .gov also get some of the printed money and compete for ammo produced outside of Lake City, bidding up component prices and bidding up the actual cost of ammo as well. Homeland Security grants (more of the "printed" money) get used by local.gov to enter the ammo market, as well as local tax money.

The supply of ammo is pretty inelastic (fixed); the demand for the ammo due to available money is elastic (and, in this case, increasing due to more .gov money and more slaving and saving AR owners). The law of supply and demand (which congress cannot repeal, despite its best efforts) dictates both component and ammo prices rise.

rhino- About all I can say regarding the euro is this: If folks perceive that the euro is being inflated less rapidly than the dollar and it is a better store of wealth, it is therefore prudent for them to buy and sell in euros. Then sellers will sell things like copper, lead and zinc for euros instead of dollars. Dollar holders must then add more dollars to the bid to make the purchase.

[Obiwan]

Some good stuff here

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/printthread.php?t=57479

[losbronces]

[
Ever wonder who owns those large copper mines in Chile that supply the vast majority of the US market? Drum roll.....your old buddy Exxon!
.-[/QUOTE]

Actually, Exxon bailed out of the copper business (returns were too low for them) right before the price run-up. The big producers in Chile are Codelco (consisting of the Chilean nationalized operations with the Chuquicamata, Radomiro Tomich, Andina, El Salvador and El Teniente mines), which is also the world's largest copper producer, and BHP Billiton (an Australian company which has the Escondida, Spence and Cerro Colorado mines). There is still some U.S. copper production in Utah, Arizona and New Mexico mainly from RTZ and Freeport owned mines, but U.S. consumption of copper exceeds production just as it does for oil.

The U.S. strategic metal stockpiles were sold off in the 1980s at low prices, so there is no help there either. New mines and expansion projects should take the copper price down no later than 2008.

[ffhounddog]

I still remember in 2006 when Wolf and Barnuel 7.62x39 went to $200 per 1000 or $300 per 1000 rounds because no one had any and when the contract was up it is now almost everywhere I go. Not at $2.75 a box but at $3.60-$4.00 a box unless you go to Academy. Then it is more.

You can now get 7.62x39 for 150-189 per 1000. Not bad wish I still had my SKS.

[Zip06]

The price on ammo seems to keep creeping up. No one anticipates any relief. Oh! the good old days.

[AMMOTECH]

I found some UMC green box at Wal-mart the other night for $6.35; the last time I checked there it was $ 7+. I picked up 5 boxes.

[C4IGrant]

I have AE 55gr in stock and Federal XM193 on the way if anyone is interested.


C4

[rhino]

For what it's worth . . .

www.ammoman.com has (or had) some Swiss M193-spec 55gr FMJ for $425 per 1000 rounds. That price is ridiculous, but if you need the ammo and you have the money, there you go.

[Voodoochild]

I have AE 55gr in stock and Federal XM193 on the way if anyone is interested.


C4

Might be what is the word on the TAP practice rounds? I look at my ammo stash and shake my head cause I cant afford to shoot at the prices now adays.

[Jay Cunningham]

I bought AE 55 gr. fmj at a local Sportsman's Warehouse last week for $332/1000.

This is the last 5.56mm I'll be buying for the year - I'll shoot 5.45mm after June.

[RogerinTPA]

If there is such a increase in materials and the war, why isn't ALL ammo going up at the same rate??? Ammo makers noticed the increase in 5.56mm ammo purchases and jacked up the price. Now panic buying is on going and guess what? They keep jacking it up! Its ALL BULLSHIT!:mad: F--k em and get a 22lr conversion.

[CarlosDJackal]

If there is such a increase in materials and the war, why isn't ALL ammo going up at the same rate??? Ammo makers noticed the increase in 5.56mm ammo purchases and jacked up the price. Now panic buying is on going and guess what? They keep jacking it up! Its ALL BULLSHIT!:mad: F--k em and get a 22lr conversion.

It's called "FREE ENTERPRISE" for a reason. Prices can be jacked up whenever demand is high and even more when supply is limited. This is what has helped such manufacturers as Harley-Davidson stay in business. As long as people are willing to pay jacked-up prices, then there really isn't much of a chance for the trend to reverse itself.

As much as this sucks, it sure as hell beats the alternative: SOCIALISM. Jm2cw.

[CarlosDJackal]

rhino;

i am no economics prof'. but, like was said above i feel that the dollar is devalueing due to $1 used to be backed by $1 worth of gold...

This practice ended a long time ago. Nowadays, how much a particular currency is worth is based on the general confidence that the country who has issued thaat currency can back up its worth.

Even if you were able to back-up a unit of currency issued by a particular country with real gold; that currency is not going to be worth diddly if it cannot provide the world market the confidence that their currency is going to maintain its worth over a period of time. For example, if Somalia were to issue a currency that was backed by a thousand dollar's worth of actual gold, would you be willing to exchange One Thousand Dollars for it? Especially if that gold can easily be pilfered by the current regime. JM2CW.

[ffhounddog]

I just wish that these courses that I go to it didnt need to be factory fresh ammo. I reload so I get good practice from that. I just cancelled another course because the instructor did not allow Wolf either.

[Cold Zero]

c.d.j.;

other factors affecting the devalue of the u.s. dollar are the huge trade defecit. importing several times more than you are exporting, while simultaneously over leveraging your currency is not a good formula for econmic strength.

bottom line, the politicans are spending more than they are receiving in tax dollars. they just print more money and it is backed by increasing higher ratios of dollars to gold.

[Submariner]

c.d.j.;

other factors affecting the devalue of the u.s. dollar are the huge trade defecit. importing several times more than you are exporting, while simultaneously over leveraging your currency is not a good formula for econmic strength.

bottom line, the politicans are spending more than they are receiving in tax dollars. they just print more money and it is backed by increasing higher ratios of dollars to gold.

Nixon closed the "gold window" on August 15, 1971 abrogating the Bretton Woods agreement whereby nations could redeem their excess dollar reserves for gold. (Pretty smart, those Phrench!) Gold was then valued at $42.22/ ounce. If you were to divide the total sovereign debt of the US(Treasury obligations and cash) of about $9 trillion by our alleged reserves of gold, 261 million ounces, gold would be about $34,400/ounce.

Otherwise, you statement is spot on. There is a thread on TOS regarding the historical price of ammo in dollars and gold. Interesting stuff.

See The US Dollar: An Agonizing Reappraisal (http://www.safehaven.com/article-7657.htm)

[mmike87]

Sort of related ... perhpas, anyway. But my Dad works at a stainless steel manufacturing facility and he says that the raw materials that they alloy with the steel have gone way up in price over the last year or two. So the prices of various raw metals does indeed seem to be increasing everywhere.

[Nathan_Bell]

Sort of related ... perhpas, anyway. But my Dad works at a stainless steel manufacturing facility and he says that the raw materials that they alloy with the steel have gone way up in price over the last year or two. So the prices of various raw metals does indeed seem to be increasing everywhere.

A bunch of reasons that ammo is climbing, and 223 5.56 is leading the way. Copper is up, zinc is up, put those together and you get brass being up. Lead and tin are up and down, so they mfgs have to watch it.

Now, beyond the raw material outlook, we have manufacturing capacity. Due to the brilliance of our government, we have one facility to make military small arms ammunition. This is a bottleneck, which is being relieved by .gov contracting with other ammuntion mfg's to take up the slack. They are, but if it is going to .gov, it ain't going to us. Ask Grant about how many mfg's wanted distributors at SHOT.

Now beyond the fact we are in a shooting war, you have most large police organizations getting rid of the shotgun as a long arm and going to the AR platform, so yet another hole for the ammunition to go into that is not the open market.

An answer for this would be for one of the mfg's to open a new plant just to roll 5.56, but they are not going to do this when there are so many political dangers that could kill the demand for this.
1. We puss out of IRaq and A-stan and the extra mil contracts dry up.
2. Congress passes another, more draconian AWB, ban AR 15 market is no longer growing.
3. HIllary gets to be president and gets to appoint a Supreme Court Justice and the law that protects firearms industry against frivolous lawsuits ais challenged and overturned. Now they get sued 365 times a year.
4. Police administrators love to cut training ammunition budgets, so all of a sudden the folks are shooting 10 rounds 2 times a year to qualify on the AR like they do the shotty now, instead of really training on it and burning up thousands of rounds.


list could go on, but I am too tired.

The price sucks, but it is not a huge conspriracy

[losbronces]

The price sucks, but it is not a huge conspriracy

I agree

[losbronces]

The price sucks, but it is not a huge conspriracy

I agree. Good analysis as well.

[TheDutchman]

I thought the Gov was opening another Ammo plant in Florida sometime in the next 2 years.

[LSP972]

[QUOTE=Nathan_Bell;56099]
4. Police administrators love to cut training ammunition budgets, so all of a sudden the folks are shooting 10 rounds 2 times a year to qualify on the AR like they do the shotty now...QUOTE]


Uh... try 10 rounds ONCE a year.

And you're right about the swing away from shotguns. We're doing the Patrol Rifle thing with the street guys, 20 rifles at a time.

And now that The Word is out that those among the rest of the "real" deputies (the ones who do police, as opposed to civil, work... narcs, etc.) who don't WANT a shotgun can turn them in, we suddenly find ourselves with a growing stock of idle 870s. Don't blame them; I never liked shooting the damned things either.

.

[Buckaroo]

[QUOTE=Nathan_Bell;56099]
4. Police administrators love to cut training ammunition budgets, so all of a sudden the folks are shooting 10 rounds 2 times a year to qualify on the AR like they do the shotty now...QUOTE]


Uh... try 10 rounds ONCE a year.

And you're right about the swing away from shotguns. We're doing the Patrol Rifle thing with the street guys, 20 rifles at a time.

And now that The Word is out that those among the rest of the "real" deputies (the ones who do police, as opposed to civil, work... narcs, etc.) who don't WANT a shotgun can turn them in, we suddenly find ourselves with a growing stock of idle 870s. Don't blame them; I never liked shooting the damned things either.

. So where are all the police surplus shottys going?

[LSP972]

I cannot speak for any other agency. We are converting some of ours into bean-bag guns (complete with freakin' ORANGE furniture); the rest are simply sitting in racks.

If you're wondering about surplus sales, etc.... trust me; you do NOT want any of these guns.

You can buy a NIB plain-vanilla 870P or Mossberg for around $300 if you look. That gets you a new weapon, as opposed to a used and abused weapon.

.

[PALADIN-hgwt]

xxxxx

[Shihan]

Do you have a link to the ammo I couldnt find it on their site?

Thanks

[PALADIN-hgwt]

xxxxx

[BarryP]

It is amazing that $350 for that is cheap. It really is considering it is real Winchester made stuff and not some tarnished import surplus. What are people shooting at carbine classes (where they arent supplied ammo by their employer)?

I just ordered up new components to load up 75gr OTM Hornady. It will cost $240/1000, but I am not looking forward to loading up 5000 rounds. Trimming brass sucks. Hopefully this new Guat brass doesnt require that but it probably does.

[AR15barrels]

I just ordered up new components to load up 75gr OTM Hornady. It will cost $240/1000, but I am not looking forward to loading up 5000 rounds. Trimming brass sucks. Hopefully this new Guat brass doesnt require that but it probably does.

I am now loading M193 clone ammo for $125/1000.
This is getting outrageous.
It used to be $75/1000 rounds...

As for brass trimming, Dillon 650 with a casefeeder and Dillon trimmer.
500 rounds trimmed per hour is pretty easy.
Then load on the 1050 and you don't have to worry about primer pockets because it swages them for you.

[ffhounddog]

I use my reloads when I can. I canceld two classes that told me I could not get my brass back or I had to use new factory fresh ammo. I asked about Wolf or Barnuel and they said NO. Sorry I am a cheap.



It is amazing that $350 for that is cheap. It really is considering it is real Winchester made stuff and not some tarnished import surplus. What are people shooting at carbine classes (where they arent supplied ammo by their employer)?

I just ordered up new components to load up 75gr OTM Hornady. It will cost $240/1000, but I am not looking forward to loading up 5000 rounds. Trimming brass sucks. Hopefully this new Guat brass doesnt require that but it probably does.

[PALADIN-hgwt]

xxxxx

[BarryP]

As for brass trimming, Dillon 650 with a casefeeder and Dillon trimmer.

Does the 650 trim automatically? How does that work? I only have a measly 550B.


Does anyone have a favorite vendor for bulk match bullets, such as Sierra/Norma 75/77's?

Here is a great price on 600 of the 75gr Hornadys. The Sierras seem to cost almost twice as much anywhere I have seen and the Noslers arent far behind. I am not sure why those cost almost twice as much as the Hornadys.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000322796

EDIT: Actually in bulk the Sierras are not double, I mispoke, but they are 50% more:

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000079377

11 cents for Hornady vs 17 cents for the Sierra

[AR15barrels]

Does the 650 trim automatically? How does that work? I only have a measly 550B.

If you mount a dillon trimmer on your 550 or in a 650, you can trim on the press.
You can't do this while loading though.
It will take two trips through the press until you can shoot it again.

With the casefeeder, this is really not an issue.

[PALADIN-hgwt]

xxxxx

[USMC223]

I bought some SS109 in loose packaging about six months ago for $225.00.
I should have bought three more cases. I went to a show this past weekend and some Croation mystery ammo was $355 per 1000. It was Privi something.
That was was about all that was available in bulk. There was about seven different types of US made ammo but 20 rounds were about $22 a box!!!!
I agree about the mil surplus shortage and the Police agencies converting to .223. The major factor as stated is the huge level of uncertanty of our beloved "evil Black rifles". Buy your relaoding materials now! It can't get any better unless we pull out of the Middle Eastern conflicts. Which I can not see happening any time soon.

As with real estate, muscle cars and stocks. I wish I had known I would have bougt more when it was cheap:rolleyes: !

[LSP972]

As with real estate, muscle cars and stocks. I wish I had known I would have bougt more when it was cheap:rolleyes: !


No kidding. Here we are, discussing quality (US-made) .223 at over $400 for a thousand rounds... and happy to get it.

Unbelievable.....:eek:

.

[twodollarbill]

Looked at the ammo rack this am......I get concerned when
it is down to a couple of thousand rounds of 5.56mm.
I had picked up some of that Prvi Partisan last year....
not the best, but I had no problems....Hey it was less than $200 shipped.
I just looked on Gunbroker and it's up to $309 plus shipping!
The Winchester at $349 looks to be a bargain.

[C4IGrant]

I have some Ultramax re-manufacturered 223 in 55gr FMJ in stock, but that is about all I could find at a fair price.

Ammo is so bad that red box BH's is starting to look good. :(



C4

[TheDutchman]

Paladin how was the Winchester Q3269 ammo package? Loose or on stripper clips?

[twodollarbill]

Paladin how was the Winchester Q3269 ammo package? Loose or on stripper clips?

Mine arrived today....ordered on 6/7....4 days with the weekend

20 round white boxes marked M855 penetrator

[Rock-N-Ruin]

I will not buy any factory ammo at all.. I can't justify paying the ridicoulous prices when I reload anyway.. I have stocked up on reloading components and have been buying guns instead of factory ammo! Hopefully ammo will go down in the future, but who knows? Until then it's boycott for this boy!!!!:D Happily reloading:D

[Nathan_Bell]

I have some Ultramax re-manufacturered 223 in 55gr FMJ in stock, but that is about all I could find at a fair price.

Ammo is so bad that red box BH's is starting to look good. :(



C4


One guy ran RH Red at the Vickers class :eek: