View Full Version : will Quick Detach Accessories will leave marks on the Rails?
There are many companies out there makes Accessories for you rails.
My favorites are LaRue Tactical, Tango down.
My question is, will their mounts with Quick release leave damage/mark the rails on the gun?
not too sure about the tangodown/adm levers but the larue will rub and leave a shiny mark where the lever rubs against the rail
Dos Cylindros
04-24-10, 23:45
My LaRue M4 mount leaves a mark on the rail. I do wonder after repeated removal and mounting if it would wear down the rail and cause it to be loose. I guess you could just tighten it up to compensate for the wear.
Shooter101
04-25-10, 00:32
Some do and some dont. If you have a mount that screws on more than likely not, If you have one with the LaRue or A.R.M.S. throw levers, YES thedy do.
thopkins22
04-25-10, 00:40
Damage? No. Mark? Yes...but not nearly as much as the metal slider on the VCAS will scratch the left side of your magwell.
ADM mounts wont leave marks on the rail
Mounts that have any type of sliding action against the rail WILL remove anodizing and therefore mar your rail. To the poster that said it was cosmetic only: it's not.
Companies like Nightforce specifically suggest avoiding the use of friction-based mounts (namely Larue), as the rail becomes permanently deformed (if only microscopically) and the mount must be re-adjusted over time.
I'm sure some of the hardcore Larue fans, as well as the function-first types will say it's BS and that it doesn't matter. A quick review of basic engineering will prove this is not only 100% correct, but it's expected from mounts of this design. In regards to it not mattering, that's subjective. If you safe queen your rifles or have precision rigs, then it matters just as much as the ammo that you buy for your guns. If you're a carbine-course regular who will shoot out their barrel in just a few years, then you won't notice. Either way, it does happen and it is a factor to some people.
If you disagree, call every high-end optics manufacturer (Nightforce, US Optics, S&B, etc). They will all say the exact same thing: They don't advise using the Larue-type QD mounts. I called Nightforce three weeks ago and got the exact same explanation from their tech-support guy (forgot his name).
Conversely, spring-based mounts do not mar the rails or leave such marks. Bobro and ADM are examples of mounts that utilize springs to keep tension on the rails. The downside to this design is the potential for the springs to wear down over time. Of course, as in the case with Larue mounts, this is greatly over-exaggerated, as it would take hundreds of on/off operations to weaken them. Note that this is not an issue with the Bobro mounts, as they continually self-adjust.
So why don't more people use spring-based mounts? Simple: more parts = more points of failure. That said, I've never seen ONE example of a spring-based mount failing in combat. Take it for what it's worth to you.
Companies like Nightforce specifically suggest avoiding the use of friction-based mounts (namely Larue), as the rail becomes permanently deformed (if only microscopically) and the mount must be re-adjusted over time.
This is why I don't (or anyone I know who shoots precision rifle) use QD rings or bases on my precision rifle; these can make a slight difference on the accuracy of your rifle.
While I agree, I think using a friction mount on a carbine is less of a problem, especially if you rarely detach the accessories.
QuietShootr
04-25-10, 10:17
There are many companies out there makes Accessories for you rails.
My favorites are LaRue Tactical, Tango down.
My question is, will their mounts with Quick release leave damage/mark the rails on the gun?
If they're your favorites, wouldn't you already know whether they leave marks on a rail or not?
What the hell is going on with this site lately?
Who cares if they leave a mark on your rail? It's a firearm, it's not meant to look pretty, it's a tool nothing more and nothing less. Do you care if your hammer has a mark on it from driving nails?
If a mount locks solid to my rail and holds zero, thats what I care about. If the mount leaves a mark I couldn't care less.
For the love of all thing holy this shit has got to stop.
For the record, LT mounts that are tightened properly WILL leave a mark. You know why? Because they are doing their job.
militarymoron
04-25-10, 11:46
Bobro and ADM are examples of mounts that utilize springs to keep tension on the rails.
that's not true. the springs (on the ADM) are in compression, not tension. they're there to push against the clamp portion and keep it open so it's easy to remove and install the mount to the rail. the mount would still function if you removed those springs. it's the crossbolt that provides the tension keeping the mount on the rail (applies to ADM).
bobro and adm mounts are also friction mounts (as are all mounts that clamp to a rail). they rely on the friction between the clamp and the rail to keep the mount from moving within the travel of the rail slot. the reason they won't mar the finish as much has nothing to do with the springs, it's just because of the larger surface area of the clamp, and the fact that it's not camming/rubbing against the rail as tension is being applied.
that's not true. the springs are in compression, not tension. they're there to push against the clamp portion and keep it open so it's easy to remove and install the mount to the rail. the mount would still function if you removed those springs. it's the crossbolt that provides the tension keeping the mount on the rail.
bobro and adm mounts are also friction mounts (as are all mounts that clamp to a rail). they rely on the friction between the clamp and the rail to keep the mount from moving within the travel of the rail slot. the reason they won't mar the finish as much has nothing to do with the springs, it's just because of the larger surface area of the clamp, and the fact that it's not camming/rubbing against the rail as tension is being applied.
The Bobro mount has no cross bolt, and will not work without the springs. The lever compresses the two springs which then transfer that force to the block that engages the rail. That is how the mount self adjusts for different rails.
See the pic for details.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk58/kwrangln/bobro/bobro06.jpg
As for one type of QR mount being a friction mount and other not, sorry, but they are all using friction to retain the mount to the rail in some form or another. The difference is wether they are using a sliding force to compress the rail or strictly compression.
militarymoron
04-25-10, 12:11
thanks for the correction - about the bobro springs/lack of crossbolt. post corrected above.
Robb Jensen
04-25-10, 12:15
Many mounts leave marks.
These are firearms and get scratched just like a carpenters hammers or mechanics wrenches do.
A well-worn rifle is a well-tested rifle. The scope-mount marks should be the least of the "character" on a trustworthy weapon.
I like to say the same about my handguns. A pistol without holster-wear hasn't earned its keep yet.
If you have a need for such extreme accuracy (and the ability to shoot well enough to use it) that rail marks from a LaRue mount are a concern, then you're most likely talking about a weapon that either does not have a QD mount in the first place or one where you're not going to be moving the optic much.
Is anyone seriously suggesting that LaRue QD mounts are not proven performers?
QuietShootr
04-25-10, 20:39
If you have a need for such extreme accuracy (and the ability to shoot well enough to use it) that rail marks from a LaRue mount are a concern, then you're most likely talking about a weapon that either does not have a QD mount in the first place or one where you're not going to be moving the optic much.
Is anyone seriously suggesting that LaRue QD mounts are not proven performers?
Yes, a ****ing airsofter...which we seem to be asshole-deep in lately.
Skunkworks
04-26-10, 00:40
Just bought a LaRue LT-110 for my new M&P15R and saw the mark on the rail and didnt care or give it a second thought about it.Its doing its job being secure is why the mark is there.Jmho
Yes, a ****ing airsofter...which we seem to be asshole-deep in lately.
I'll relay your comment to the tech guys at Schmidt & Bender. Apparently their expertise designing and then mounting $3,000+ optics to rails is no better than a, quote, "effing airsofter."
Gee, six years of formal German engineering training and another four of apprenticeship and all that was actually needed was a keyboard and an opinion.
that's not true.
bobro and adm mounts are also friction mounts (as are all mounts that clamp to a rail). they rely on the friction between the clamp and the rail to keep the mount from moving within the travel of the rail slot. the reason they won't mar the finish as much has nothing to do with the springs, it's just because of the larger surface area of the clamp, and the fact that it's not camming/rubbing against the rail as tension is being applied.
The Bobro does not rely on friction - the bar underneath has a flexing appendage that compresses when it fits between the picatinny slots and maintains compression until removed.
Your assertions about the ADM are correct. I meant to correct that after I posted it, but forgot to.
There are many companies out there makes Accessories for you rails.
My favorites are LaRue Tactical, Tango down.
My question is, will their mounts with Quick release leave damage/mark the rails on the gun?
Typically speaking, the smaller the contact area on the lever, the more likely it will be to leave a mark on your rail.
C4
Mounts that have any type of sliding action against the rail WILL remove anodizing and therefore mar your rail. To the poster that said it was cosmetic only: it's not.
Companies like Nightforce specifically suggest avoiding the use of friction-based mounts (namely Larue), as the rail becomes permanently deformed (if only microscopically) and the mount must be re-adjusted over time.
I'm sure some of the hardcore Larue fans, as well as the function-first types will say it's BS and that it doesn't matter. A quick review of basic engineering will prove this is not only 100% correct, but it's expected from mounts of this design. In regards to it not mattering, that's subjective. If you safe queen your rifles or have precision rigs, then it matters just as much as the ammo that you buy for your guns. If you're a carbine-course regular who will shoot out their barrel in just a few years, then you won't notice. Either way, it does happen and it is a factor to some people.
If you disagree, call every high-end optics manufacturer (Nightforce, US Optics, S&B, etc). They will all say the exact same thing: They don't advise using the Larue-type QD mounts. I called Nightforce three weeks ago and got the exact same explanation from their tech-support guy (forgot his name).
Conversely, spring-based mounts do not mar the rails or leave such marks. Bobro and ADM are examples of mounts that utilize springs to keep tension on the rails. The downside to this design is the potential for the springs to wear down over time. Of course, as in the case with Larue mounts, this is greatly over-exaggerated, as it would take hundreds of on/off operations to weaken them. Note that this is not an issue with the Bobro mounts, as they continually self-adjust.
So why don't more people use spring-based mounts? Simple: more parts = more points of failure. That said, I've never seen ONE example of a spring-based mount failing in combat. Take it for what it's worth to you.
Interesting post (especially about the mount recommendation from optics manufacturers).
C4
What the hell is going on with this site lately?
Who cares if they leave a mark on your rail? It's a firearm, it's not meant to look pretty, it's a tool nothing more and nothing less. Do you care if your hammer has a mark on it from driving nails?
If a mount locks solid to my rail and holds zero, thats what I care about. If the mount leaves a mark I couldn't care less.
For the love of all thing holy this shit has got to stop.
For the record, LT mounts that are tightened properly WILL leave a mark. You know why? Because they are doing their job.
Marks are just fine. Where the problem happens is if a pocket/dent is formed. As the weapon recoils, that pocket will continue to become deeper. Over time, the mount can become loose on the rail.
I have access to some high speed video of guns being fired. What goes on with mounts during recoil is shocking.
C4
Marks are just fine. Where the problem happens is if a pocket/dent is formed. As the weapon recoils, that pocket will continue to become deeper. Over time, the mount can become loose on the rail.
I have access to some high speed video of guns being fired. What goes on with mounts during recoil is shocking.
C4
LOVE to see those videos of that recoil if you have the chance to link it pal:)
Robb Jensen
04-26-10, 21:30
QD and you actually remove the mount from time to time. Expect a zero shift.
QD and non-QD and you don't EVER remove the mount. No shift.
That's life, some don't like the truth but that's simply it.
LOVE to see those videos of that recoil if you have the chance to link it pal:)
Maybe some day, but for now I will keep it to myself.
C4
I take off my AR optics all the time, most of which are mounted in Larue mounts. Quite honest with you I never cared how much of a shiney spot it leaves ....thats how I know which slot it goes in. Much easier than remembering the T mark.
The fact that it leaves a mark should not be an issue from a practical standpoint
I think the "high end optic " manufacturer statements must be taken with a grain of salt. A NSX 1-4 or a S&B short dot , any microscopic misalignment wouldn't make much difference for its intended use. Lots of these scopes in Larue SPR mounts
For a higher power scope on precision rifle why the hell would you use a quick detatch mount anyways ? Not like you have a iron BUIS
This is why most serious bolt gun shooter uses Badger / Seekings / Nighforce / Near rings and has a 65in lb torque wrench in their kit. Far more repeatable than any QD mount. Doesn't take as long as you think to remove optic
Keep in mind a bit of misalignment due to worn anodizing wouldn't make much difference on a AR with a 1-4 scope, but would make a difference shooting out to 1000yrds with a .5 MOA rifle
Most people who are using QD for AR are using Red Dots etc where the freaking dot is 2 to 4 MOA !
If you really really don't want any shiney spots then run a ADM . I have been happy with mine
Lastly back to the "high end" manufacturers . If you did speak to S&B you would know that they typically need 28MOA to 30MOA ( or 45 MOA for some models ) of slope in 34mm and non cantilever design. Have fun finding a QD mount that meets this requirement
As far as NSX, they don't really need the slope for 1000yds for 308 but most guys will use 20MOA. Nighforce makes this sloped unitized mount and obviously recommends it.
Marks are just fine. Where the problem happens is if a pocket/dent is formed. As the weapon recoils, that pocket will continue to become deeper. Over time, the mount can become loose on the rail.
I have access to some high speed video of guns being fired. What goes on with mounts during recoil is shocking.
C4
What is the solution in todays mount market? I make no bones about preferring LT mounts and have never seen anything more than a light mark on the underside of the rail. They have always been great for my usage and have worked perfectly... Wouldn't the galling occur due to over tightening of the mount?
What are your thoughts on the new KAC micro mount, other than the sell your first born price?
What is the solution in todays mount market? I make no bones about preferring LT mounts and have never seen anything more than a light mark on the underside of the rail. They have always been great for my usage and have worked perfectly... Wouldn't the galling occur due to over tightening of the mount?
What are your thoughts on the new KAC micro mount, other than the sell your first born price?
My suggestion is to select the mount that best fits your needs. So if you are happy with your LT mounts, DO NOT SWITCH.
C4
What are your thoughts on the new KAC micro mount, other than the sell your first born price?
I think for an AR, the LaRue T1 mount is hard to beat. I bought a KAC T1 mount for the adaptability on different weapons, intending it to be the last mount I ever buy for that T1. The increased cost was, to my mind, offset by the decreased (eliminated) future cost for additional mounts if I move it to an AK, shotgun, etc.
If I knew this T1 was going to live on an AR indefinitely, I'd buy the LaRue mount.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.