View Full Version : Gas Piston Manufacturers...
Razorhunter
05-06-07, 16:40
Guys,
Do we have a thread on this forum, (or ANY other forum?), which has good comparitive info on the different gas piston rifles from all the current manufacturers???
I know it's still early, and we probably can't say which company (for sure) has the BEST gas piston system out there, and maybe only time will tell, but I sure would love to see a thread with at least some info on the subject.
Has anyone got experience with all of the different companies rifles, or has anyone done any comparison testing?
OR, can anyone comment on the design similarities and differences, of the different gas piston designs?
Better yet, has ANYONE here owned ANY of the current gas piston systems, and possibly found any flaws or weak points in the gas piston system????? I'm just looking for some INFO on this subject guys.
AFAIK, the various makers are LWRC, Hk, and POF. Possibly Colt will drop something on us one day, and then there's the Ares piston upgrade system, which I have actually read about, and seen, and I know how it works, thanks to Seth on this forum.
Anyhow, I would love to hear from anyone who can comment on the various systems, and maybe even comment on the various strengths, weaknesses, and/or design similarities/differences of the different gas piston systems...
Thanks for ANY help guys...
The piston systems probably need to be chopped into two different sections. One being for those that are factory weapons, and one that is for conversions.
I have used the LW, POF and HK. The HK seems to me the most refined to me (maybe most durable)?
C4
Razorhunter
05-06-07, 21:56
The piston systems probably need to be chopped into two different sections. One being for those that are factory weapons, and one that is for conversions.
Yes, I agree Stick,
I just mentioned the ARES conversion for the hell of it. Not really looking for info on it, as you can see.
Too bad Hk won't wake up and smell the coffee. They could LITERALLY DOMINATE the gas piston (and the entire AR industry), IF they would make their rifles affordable to all, just as every other manufacturer has.
$4K for an upper alone is BS. I can get a complete LWRC for half that....
Too bad, I'd really like to see Hk climb to the top and dominate em all....
Guys,
Do we have a thread on this forum, (or ANY other forum?), which has good comparitive info on the different gas piston rifles from all the current manufacturers???
We have had gas piston AR threads before:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4265
As a matter of fact you took part in the discussion.
FYI - HK416's are not $4000. Some dealers charge that price because of the demand and the fact that the U.S. government has banned importation of the uppers with the ATF's new interpretation of the "Barrel Ban".
Hopefully that will change in the next 12 months.
K.L. Davis explained the various designs rather well:
1. LWRC and Ares use an AR18 design, it is often called a "cup and spigot" design. If you think of it this way, the spigot (piston) is attached to the gas block and the cup (cylinder) sets over it... the cup (cylinder) is actually what moves. The cylinder has vent holes that open to the atmosphere once it moves so far... and vent the gas off from these holes. BTW: During firing, the cup never is completely "aft and clear" of the spigot.
2. The HK416 design (despite what you read all over the internet) is different from the AR18 design, enough so that it is patented and HK owns the rights to use it. It is a very sharp design in which the cylinder is part of the gas block and the piston sets inside of it -- the piston is the part that moves, very traditional. What is unique is that on the front of the piston, there is a small nipple that plugs a hole in the bottom of the cylinder... as the piston moves back, it unplugs this hole and the gases are vented out the front of the gas block. The design regulates well.
3. POF is not that much different from the FAL, one distinct advantage is the front loaded piston can be removed and cleaned without having to remove semi-permanent handguards.
Razorhunter
05-07-07, 06:36
Yes, of course I remember that thread, and I did post in it.
I was looking for something a little more in depth, and possibly with comparison pics. I know it's early, but I figured by now, someone would have more than just brief comments on the subject.
Maybe comparison pics, test results, something.
I DO appreciate the explanation posted in that previous thread, as right now, it's all I've got to refer to, regarding the different designs...
I believe the best-known piston system you can compare the HK416 to is that of the U.S. M1/M2 Carbine.
I've owned or do own all of the piston systems except the HK. My breakdown?
POF---well made, works fine, just a little front-heavy for an M4 sized weapon and a bit pricey.
LWRC---well made, works fine, a bit more pricey. (just ordered another upper though!)
Ares---moveable from one gun to another, drop-in conversion, works well (mine anyways), and is the least expensive of the bunch. Only thing is that accuracy may suffer if the piston is rubbing on the handguard/rail system, but that would apply to any of them of course.
I think an Ares-type setup may be the best if perfected. However, "perfecting" something that is theorectically able to be used on ANY carbine AR platform is a tall order indeed. There are so many variables from one manufacturer to another it may be a pipe dream to work with EVERYTHING. But if the military is ever to buy into a "conversion" system then something like the Ares is the route they will probably go.
Rail systems are made that will fit piston guns without modification. The LWRC (formerly Grenadier Precision) ARM-R is made for this setup, as well as the Predator that POF's wear. Any others require EXTENSIVE modification.
Bottom line? In one fashion or another I personally believe that SOME sort of piston system is the future of the AR platform. Not that DI will be cast aside but we'll see more, not less, of pistons.
Just an observation on my part:
POF seem to have the most product in the marketplace and have a relationship with Bushmaster.
LW appear to still be a low volume manufacturer although they seem to be gaining traction - some minor QA and CS issues have been reported if you read the boards.
Ares appear to have their customers doing the T&E stage of product development, I would suggest that they have too few units out there to form an honest opinion about their system at this stage.
H&K 416 is not available to civilian buyers - yet (excluding the few overpriced uppers that have appeared on various internet sites). This one seems to be the benchmark.
Colt LE1020 or M5, once again rumor and speculation.
As I said, just an observation on my part.
POF has turned out some some uppers that didn't work. Customer service was reported as not that good.
When they upper was replaced with an LWRC, the owner was happy.
POF - 0 and 2
LWRC - 1 and 1 = happy owner
I'm going to get an LWRC myself when my SBR paperwork comes in.
GunLovinTexan
05-12-07, 20:12
The uppers that didnt work from POF work Rock Creek Barrels fault for supplying faulty barrels.
I personally have 2 POF uppers that work perfectly and am considering buying a 3rd.
I have a LWR upper coming in the next few months, a few co-workers just ordered Bushmaster/POF rifles and another friend has an original POF upper. When they all get in. I wll try to field test all of them and see if these gas piston system are worth the $$$.
GunLovinTexan
05-12-07, 22:04
Depends on your version of worth the money.
My Colts will do everything my POF will up too 5 k rounds without cleaning the POF went to just over 6k.
Rob
Razorhunter
05-13-07, 22:12
I have a LWR upper coming in the next few months, a few co-workers just ordered Bushmaster/POF rifles and another friend has an original POF upper. When they all get in. I wll try to field test all of them and see if these gas piston system are worth the $$$.
Thanks bro, Sounds real good, and I look forward to reading any and all info you have to share...
Razorhunter
05-13-07, 22:13
Depends on your version of worth the money.
My Colts will do everything my POF will up too 5 k rounds without cleaning the POF went to just over 6k.
Rob
Wow, you are running your DI Colts up to 5K rounds WITHOUT cleaning??? I didn't think that was reasonably possible.. Learn something new every day...
GunLovinTexan
05-13-07, 22:53
nothings reasonable about not cleaning a gun, to keep it functioning i used alot of lube. This happend over a period of 2 weeks (for the Colt).
Ill i beilive it was around 4700 rounds that i started having seriouse issues.
and my first jam happend around 2300
Edited to add: during this period of time i would wipe down parts and relube alot so in technically there was some cleaning. But now i have a new idea, how long will DI last without lube and without cleaning, hmmm.
the POF is a non issue the damn thing runs dry and doesnt seem to wanna jam, i only cleaned it because i felt bad for it.
Rob
Razorhunter
05-13-07, 23:01
i only cleaned it because i felt bad for it.
Rob
Dude! That's funny as hell!!!
Anyhow, I would like to ask you WHERE exactly is the dirtiest spot on a DI gun, after that many (4K) rounds??? I mean, in which areas, does the carbon build up the MOST, after this many rounds?? I suspect it's just mostly the BCG area, and bolt itself, but is there anywhere else?? (aside from the bore itself of course)....
Thanks...
GunLovinTexan
05-13-07, 23:14
well the BCG was definatly one of the dirtyiest parts, the gas tube was filthy as well. These i would have to say were the dirtyiest parts but my rifle in paticular got so bad that i cleaned the reciver extension (the tube that holds the stock i forgot the correct name) anyways the spring was changing colors and the buffer was black.
The BCG's dirtyiest spots were behing the gas rings on the bolt, the gas key and the Bolt face.
The inside of the gas Tube exspecially near the gas port.
the cleanist parts seemed to be the Magwell and FCG.
I usally clean my guns after every range session but me and 3 friends had to dispose of ammo so i wasnt in a hurry to clean my rifles.
My POF's have run and run well. That being said im buying a third. When i knew i had to clean the upper was when my shiny silver piston rods were black and plated nicely with burnt powerder.The rifle looked better with black rods though.
Ive considerd a LWRC wich maybe my next upper but i dont like the fact that it shoots that cloud of burnt powder in the air. POF's system is alot like the FAL's and it seems to contain it well.
Where i see gas pistons having majore advantages over DI is heat. I seem to be of the opinon that all the burning hot poweders being sent into the BCG is heating it up very quickly and causing the tempures of the metals to change and weaken causing breakages. Granted the DI is a very good and well thought out system and it WORKS it can be improved upon. Granted changing the BCG routinly on a maintence basis is no issue i dont see a problem with the DI system, I just see room for improvement.
Sorry for spelling errors and all but its late here in texas.
Rob
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