Illegal Castoffs [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

Mac5.56

04-26-10, 23:10

rickrock305

04-26-10, 23:29

Someone smeared a swastika on a window with refried beans...

its messed up, but thats pretty funny. just the ridiculousness of it.

Belmont31R

04-26-10, 23:29

There wouldn't be illegal immigration in this country if there weren't corrupt citizens of this nation that are willing to break the law by hiring illegals for the purpose of making a profit. Until this is addressed illegal immigration wont go away.

I find it hard to discriminate against a nationality especially considering that in all honesty if I had to pick between a mexican immigrant and an average college kid to go out on a labor call to say, re-build a basement to a house (something I have done) I would pick the mexican every time based purely on work ethic. The hardest working people I have ever met are usually immigrants.

This is a very pro-capitalist forum, and pro free market. I don't understand the contradiction that comes up when looking at the simple fact that capitalism encourages the hiring of individuals who can do the most amount of work for the least amount of pay. That is the free market! Even if we made a law that got rid of ALL illegal immigrants in the country, and only allowed legal immigrants to work jobs, and even if it was strictly enforced 100% in some idealistic wonderland, you would still see immigrants taking up most of the lower tier jobs in this country and they would continue to workmore productively then the typical US citizen for the minimum amount of pay!

Am I a proponent of illegal immigration? Nope. Do I think the movement against it and current immigration laws are basically racist at their core? Yep I do. They refuse to address the problem at its core, and focus on blaming the individual trying to make a buck, rather then the system that encourages it. But that's my opinion and I will allow you to now go crazy on me about how I am a some kind of insane leftist for seeing the complexity of the situation for what it is.

Also getting rid of illegal immigrants wont get rid of crime, or gang violence. Pipe dreams are just that and nothing more.

Yeah capitalism and all that but the situation gets mighty foggy when you have 3rd world nationals working under the table for Joe contractor at five bucks an hour. What American could work for 5 bucks an hour, and even feed themselves, keep themselves clothed, a solid roof over their head, reliable transportaion (if they dont have that Joe fires them).

If you want to pay 3rd world wages then you'll never see 99.999% of Americans wanting to do the work because you can live in 1st world standards at the pay you want to give out.

See this is how unions got started, and all this organized labor bullshit. The factory owners came up with the idea of paying their employees slave wages, and then wondered why no one wanted to show up for work. Why little kids were slaving away in factories instead of going to school, and being a kid. That BS gave rise to the other BS of unions because people didn't do the right thing in the 1st place, and then people wonder why so many today have the entitlement mentality. At my point in life I wouldn't even accept a job at anything less than 15-20 hour because at much less Im paying the babysitter more than Im making to go to work in the 1st place. But you can go pay the Mexicans less than minimum wage to do the work, and then they cram themselves 20 to a house or apartment, and become leeches on society soaking up tax dollars. You wouldn't have to be taxed as much if illegals were not costing the states tens/hundreds of billions a year.

I think businesses that hire illegals should be fined 100k per illegal they hire if they have over 50 employees total. Less than 50 they get 25k a pop. 2nd offense loss of business license for 1 year. 3rd offense permanent.

Just think if we didn't have illegals here there would be a job out there for every unemployed American right now, and new houses wouldn't be built like shit thrown up in a week.

Mac5.56

04-26-10, 23:39

Yeah capitalism and all that but the situation gets mighty foggy when you have 3rd world nationals working under the table for Joe contractor at five bucks an hour. What American could work for 5 bucks an hour, and even feed themselves, keep themselves clothed, a solid roof over their head, reliable transportaion (if they dont have that Joe fires them).

I hear what your saying, but I also have to say it isn't true. When ICE started doing their raids on farming communities, several orchards out East, and out West (my fiance's father has a cherry farm in Oregon, I live in Apple country. The pickers on his farm are my future in laws and no-one else so don't go there) had a really hard time finding pickers. There were three orchards here that half way into the season couldn't get a work force of pickers at 10 dollars an hour cash. In an area full of college kids.

Why? Because Americans think they're too good for jobs like that.

If I had an offer for a ten dollar an hour job ON THE BOOKS in college that consisted of working outside all day, I would have jumped on it in a heart beat.

It's not that American's aren't willing to do it for the pay, it's that most Americans feel they are entitled to not have to do shit when it comes to making money.

To solve the problem that your talking about, you would also have to have massive government regulation of wages in order to insure that people like yourself are capable of both paying for a babysitter, and doing the job that was vacated when the illegals were kicked out. And, government regulation is something that is an absolute NO NO, right??? It's Socialism right???

Belmont31R

04-27-10, 00:03

I hear what your saying, but I also have to say it isn't true. When ICE started doing their raids on farming communities, several orchards out East, and out West (my fiance's father has a cherry farm in Oregon, I live in Apple country. The pickers on his farm are my future in laws and no-one else so don't go there) had a really hard time finding pickers. There were three orchards here that half way into the season couldn't get a work force of pickers at 10 dollars an hour cash. In an area full of college kids.

Why? Because Americans think they're too good for jobs like that.

If I had an offer for a ten dollar an hour job ON THE BOOKS in college that consisted of working outside all day, I would have jumped on it in a heart beat.

It's not that American's aren't willing to do it for the pay, it's that most Americans feel they are entitled to not have to do shit when it comes to making money.

To solve the problem that your talking about, you would also have to have massive government regulation of wages in order to insure that people like yourself are capable of both paying for a babysitter, and doing the job that was vacated when the illegals were kicked out. And, government regulation is something that is an absolute NO NO, right??? It's Socialism right???

No its that I have enough education, work experience, and am past the point of minimum wage jobs.

By your own admission you could not find legal workers to work for $10 an hour. That means you were not paying enough by current standards.

When you introduce illegals to the mix it throws the entire capitalist balance off because you are hiring people at 3rd world rates when you're operating in a 1st world country. By the standards we have advanced in society its nearly impossible to live off a minimum wage job. The way people in your situation have gotten around this is to hire illegals at cut rate prices, and putting the burden of caring for these people onto the tax payer. Your half-wage illegals don't have enough money to take care of themselves so they show up in the ER so we get to pay their medical care because you arent paying them enough to do it on their own. They take their kids to the county medical clinics to get shots and WIC. So in essence its you, the employer, cheating the system and passing the buck off to the tax payer to care for your employees.

And no I dont think we need massive regulations to make sure someone like me can get ANY job, and take care of my family. I simply didn't take on the responsibility until I was in a position to pay for it. However at this point I couldn't go back to 10/hr because it wouldn't even pay to put my kids in day care. There is no going back for me having a family.

Go back to when unions started up, and employers abusing their workers is what led way to the welfare state where people want guarenteed this and that because employers wont do it. Instead we get to pay outrageous taxes so employers can maximize their profits shoving the well being of their workers onto the gov tit.

FromMyColdDeadHand

04-27-10, 00:38

I heard that the protests at the state capitol were a bit on the violent side...and there will be some vandalism charges. Someone smeared a swastika on a window with refried beans...

Uhhmm, that's not refried beans. Recycled beans maybe.

The one and only time you can legitimately use the term "beaner". (come'on that's funny). God love Carlos Mencina.

I think it all goes to the problem of the interpretation of the 14th Amendment that if you are born here you are a citizen. Something originally designed to make sure that slaves were considered citizens is making us all slaves to whoever can whelp a baby on our soil. Liberals like to point to the enlightened Europeans as the model we should emulate. How many of them would allow the offspring of illegals to be granted full citizenship? The most valuable thing that we possess is our citizenship in the US. Not since the Roman Empire has citizenship been so valuable, and we hand it out like cracker jack prizes.

I read somewhere (CNN?) that the US government could refuse to take illegals caught under this law. Can you imagine the uproar if DOJ makes AZ release these guys when they catch them, or takes them and lets them go (after getting them a lawyer to sue the state, of course).

Belmont31R

04-27-10, 00:42

Uhhmm, that's not refried beans. Recycled beans maybe.

The one and only time you can legitimately use the term "beaner". (come'on that's funny). God love Carlos Mencina.

I think it all goes to the problem of the interpretation of the 14th Amendment that if you are born here you are a citizen. Something originally designed to make sure that slaves were considered citizens is making us all slaves to whoever can whelp a baby on our soil. Liberals like to point to the enlightened Europeans as the model we should emulate. How many of them would allow the offspring of illegals to be granted full citizenship? The most valuable thing that we possess is our citizenship in the US. Not since the Roman Empire has citizenship been so valuable, and we hand it out like cracker jack prizes.

I read somewhere (CNN?) that the US government could refuse to take illegals caught under this law. Can you imagine the uproar if DOJ makes AZ release these guys when they catch them, or takes them and lets them go (after getting them a lawyer to sue the state, of course).

Back a truck up to the border, and when they jump out they are in Mexico.

Grayling14

04-27-10, 00:49

The real issue here is the enforcement of the rule of law. We are a country of laws, laws that everyone inside of our borders are expected to comply with. As the law stands now it is illegal to be in this country without legal documentation. By definition, engaging in illegal activities makes one a criminal. I fail to see how the objective enforcement of our laws makes us racist, fascist or immoral. To the contrary, not enforcing our laws equally is immoral.

Mac5.56

04-27-10, 00:51

No its that I have enough education, work experience, and am past the point of minimum wage jobs.

By your own admission you could not find legal workers to work for $10 an hour. That means you were not paying enough by current standards.

First let me clarify something: You keep saying "YOU" as if I am somehow responsible for this. I told you that I live in Apple Country. I am not the owner, or an employee on an apple farm. Nor have I ever worked on one. I mentioned my future in-laws own a cherry farm in the middle of cherry country in Oregon. I also stated that it is only family that works on this farm. So to clarify, when you as in YOU Belmont31R, are referring to ME you are wrong, and should be using "they".

Second. Your telling me that $10 an hour offered under the table to hire seasonal legal employees isn't enough money? Your point may be valid. But if it is, it doesn't change the reality of capitalism. Those farm owners determined that in order to stay competitive on a global market that was the maximum they were capable of paying their pickers in order to stay competitive. If they paid more to hire legal workers they wouldn't have been able to sell their products and stay in business. This is the entire dichotomy I am talking about, and the realities of free market capitalism.

You keep speaking about "paying 3rd world wages", well, open your eyes. The large majority of consumer products produced and sold in this country are done so by corporations paying 3rd world wages. If they don't do it here in the US with illegal immigrants, they do it abroad. This is because, like I said before capitalism will seek to get the most amount of work for the least amount of pay.

When you introduce illegals to the mix it throws the entire capitalist balance off because you are hiring people at 3rd world rates when you're operating in a 1st world country. By the standards we have advanced in society its nearly impossible to live off a minimum wage job. The way people in your situation have gotten around this is to hire illegals at cut rate prices, and putting the burden of caring for these people onto the tax payer. Your half-wage illegals don't have enough money to take care of themselves so they show up in the ER so we get to pay their medical care because you arent paying them enough to do it on their own. They take their kids to the county medical clinics to get shots and WIC. So in essence its you, the employer, cheating the system and passing the buck off to the tax payer to care for your employees.

Yes that is exactly what is happening the employer is cheating the system and we all suffer. But what exactly is your proposal to change this? You gripe about it, you blame the illegals as if they are some how the cause, and then to top it off you have the audacity to then go further and blame unions that originated as a way to counter this reality prior to fair labor laws. So what exactly do you suggest happens? If you boot the illegals you have several in country industries that are no longer capable of making a profit because their wages can't support a legal US worker. These companies close down, or move abroad. Thus, there are no jobs created in this country. It's a Catch 22.

And no I dont think we need massive regulations to make sure someone like me can get ANY job, and take care of my family. I simply didn't take on the responsibility until I was in a position to pay for it. However at this point I couldn't go back to 10/hr because it wouldn't even pay to put my kids in day care. There is no going back for me having a family.

The only reason you were ever capable of having the life that you have today was because of government regulated capitalism. If you don't believe this, or refuse to accept it, you are honestly ignorant of your own nations history.

In regards to you and your family. Really? No going back? So if you lost your job today, and the only job available was a 10 dollar an hour apple picking job you wouldn't take it? If you did have to take it, and you couldn't make ends meat what would you do? What if your kid got sick?

Go back to when unions started up, and employers abusing their workers is what led way to the welfare state where people want guarenteed this and that because employers wont do it. Instead we get to pay outrageous taxes so employers can maximize their profits shoving the well being of their workers onto the gov tit.

No offense but this is such a twisted and convoluted version of history it barely even deserves a response. The only reason you have the 1st World standards you talk about is because of the labor movement. It sure as hell wasn't because of the bosses. Did the labor movement eventually fall into problems and become less about the workers? Yea in some situations it did. In others it did not. But you have completely failed to address the reality of the questions your complaining about, and have also failed completely to offer a valid solution given the realities of World Trade.

If you want to close the US borders completely, and only have an internal economy that trades only amongst the 50 states, then say so. Also suggest to us how to accomplish it and make it sustainable.

FromMyColdDeadHand

04-27-10, 01:03

Second. Your telling me that $10 dollars offered under the table to hire seasonal legal employees isn't enough money? Your point may be valid. But if it is, it doesn't change the reality of capitalism. Those farm owners determined that in order to stay competitive they that was the maximum they were capable of paying in order to stay competitive. If they paid more to hire legal workers they wouldn't have been able to sell their products and stay in business. This is the entire dichotomy I am talking about.

You keep speaking about "paying 3rd world wages", well open your eyes. Well over the majority of consumer products produced and sold in this country are done so by corporations paying 3rd world wages. If they don't do it here in the US with illegal immigrants, they do it abroad. This is because, like I said before capitalism will seek to get the most amount of work for the least amount of pay.

Competitive against whom? If all the growers have to use legal labor, all their costs will be similar. Yes, prices would be higher, but a lot of goods would be cheaper if we allowed manufacturers to cut corners and do illegal things, like dump waste.

As to if they don't do it here, they'll do it overseas. All those jobs are already shipped out, it is the jobs that can't move that the issue. Instead of exporting the factory, they have imported the labor. This has effectively weaved a third world country into the fabric of our nation.

People say that they do jobs that Americans won't do. If this is true, why in the heck give them amnesty and make them citizens. If we do that, they'll just grab a sofa and quit doing the jobs and we'll have to ship in some new third world country disporia.

One last thing, if all these illegals are here in the US, they are contributing to global warming at a far greater rate than if they were in their mother countries. Stop Global Warming at the border! Save the world and send an illegal home! Just wait till cap and tax comes, and these illegals coming over the border make it harder for us to hit our carbon caps. Guess what happens when people are forced to either run their houses at 60F in the winter/85F in the summer or send illegals home. Let me help you pack.

Mac5.56

04-27-10, 01:36

Competitive against whom? If all the growers have to use legal labor, all their costs will be similar. Yes, prices would be higher, but a lot of goods would be cheaper if we allowed manufacturers to cut corners and do illegal things, like dump waste.

As to if they don't do it here, they'll do it overseas. All those jobs are already shipped out, it is the jobs that can't move that the issue. Instead of exporting the factory, they have imported the labor. This has effectively weaved a third world country into the fabric of our nation.

I am in no way disagreeing with you about that. But go to the super market and pick up an apple and look at the stamp on it for its country of origin. You'll see that there is plenty of competition for food production abroad.

And also, dumping waste is an example of government regulation.

People say that they do jobs that Americans won't do. If this is true, why in the heck give them amnesty and make them citizens. If we do that, they'll just grab a sofa and quit doing the jobs and we'll have to ship in some new third world country disporia.

I agree

One last thing, if all these illegals are here in the US, they are contributing to global warming at a far greater rate than if they were in their mother countries. Stop Global Warming at the border! Save the world and send an illegal home! Just wait till cap and tax comes, and these illegals coming over the border make it harder for us to hit our carbon caps. Guess what happens when people are forced to either run their houses at 60F in the winter/85F in the summer or send illegals home. Let me help you pack.

Ha ha, I get it. Another reference about how I must be a an idiot because I think logically. Funny. Did Glen Beck put that in his latest book as a foot note?

Why is it on this forum, and I ask this as an honest question, that very few people that respond in these subjects can go for more then two paragraphs without blaming someone that they are arguing against of being some evil secret "liberal"?

Such reactions do so much to discredit finding a real solution to these issues. I've said it before in this thread, I'll say it again. I want this issue solved as much as the next person. I want the economy to start kicking ass again. I want Bin Laden's head on a plate just like you do. I want to be able to speak my mind, be an atheist, own a gun, not have the government come into my home, ext. But all I see on both the left and the right are sound board soap box politics with hollow results. I see politicians that focus on divisive issues in order to get us to argue amongst ourselves while they sit back getting fat and happy. It saddens me when I see so many awesome humans (on both the left and the right) give into it and start drinking the kool aid of their particular party. It basically means we're f'ing doomed cause we can't even sit down an talk without inserting these little quips about the "evil other" every chance we get.

Honu

04-27-10, 02:17

Honu

04-27-10, 02:24

I do think they should have a very good guest worker program !

but how ? no clue but should be something where they can get a competitive wage they are happy with and proper housing supplied and for a short term then they have to go back for at least 2x the amount of time or something like that ? that they are in the country to make sure they do not end up living here on a guest program

permanent card that they get after background check and other things that the employer pays for to get cheap labor

taxes collected etc.. medical covered by the employer

I do think anyone breaking the law to get into the country should be tattooed in a noticeable spot :) so its easy to check when coming back over and deny them

Mac5.56

04-27-10, 02:54

well not sure ?
since many are here just to do crimes and sell drugs or bring drugs in etc...
so criminal activity is still a huge problem since they can come over do their crimes and then go back or many times when they get caught they just get deported back ?

I hate to do this, but let me use an argument you should be familiar with: A criminal is a criminal and they will break the law no matter what level of government legislation is put into place in an attempt to stop this.

Is this forum not home to this exact same defense in regards to gun control laws?

Hell, it is the argument I use with my anti gun friends when they ask why I am against gun control. I argue that illegal gun violence happens no matter if there is gun legislation or not. I actually use Mexico as an example, and Brazil, and Chicago, and DC. I point out how even with strong anti gun laws there is still a thriving black market trade in firearms, and extreme examples of gun violence.

So, how exactly, will creating hollow legislation help get rid of these evil doers that you are talking about? Will it prevent them from coming here to commit crimes? Will it prevent them from using immigration laws a free pass back to their country? Will it honestly stop anything your talking about? Or will the criminals just get better at committing the same crimes?

My answer is that just like gun control it wont effect any of the people it was actually designed to effect, and that you are falling victim to the same urges you bemoan and rip your hair out about when you scream about the idiocy of liberal fanatics and their gun control laws.

after living in Honduras I am amazed at how insanely racist Mexicans are against Hondurans and Guatemalans !
and people think our borders are bad the way we treat people
then those people should take a trip way far south and see how Mexico takes care of its southern borders !!!! and how it treats people down their !!!!

I've seen South American racism, but I've never been to Central America. I lived in South America for a time. It amazed me how open the racism was there. I also have friends from both South and Central America so I know about the issue as a whole, but two wrongs don't make a right. I've also worked in Europe and seen how open racism is there. My father works in Asia now, and was in Africa before, and he comments about the same thing on these continents. From my travels and his stories I think The United States of America is an amazing place considering. I think most people aren't racist at all when compared to the rest of the world, we have our extremist assholes, and plenty of bigots, but it is not as culturally acceptable as other places I have visited. Their actions shouldn't justify my acceptance of ignorance within my boarders though, this is The United States of America, this is my country, this is your country, it's all of our ours, and I love it, so I hold both my nation and all of us to a higher standard then I do the rest of the world! My ancestors came over on a boat, and to tell you the 100% honest truth I don't know if it was legal in every families case! My grandmother was adopted. Do you know your families history? Do you even know your races history in this country? I doubt that very few of the people bashing their chests right now do, so they are casting stones without even knowing who to judge! I'm not saying this to excuse anyones behavior, I am saying it to try and humble myself, and others so that we can start to address the realities of what is going on. I know for a fact from my travels, and my life that i can't look anyone in the eye and tell them: "You don't have a right to feed your family." I also know that I am secure enough in my own ability to survive that "the big bad boogie man" doesn't really scare me, as I've met him before, and he exists in every society no matter the laws or legislation in place trying to prevent his existence.

FromMyColdDeadHand

04-27-10, 07:24

One last thing, if all these illegals are here in the US, they are contributing to global warming at a far greater rate than if they were in their mother countries. Stop Global Warming at the border! Save the world and send an illegal home! Just wait till cap and tax comes, and these illegals coming over the border make it harder for us to hit our carbon caps. Guess what happens when people are forced to either run their houses at 60F in the winter/85F in the summer or send illegals home. Let me help you pack.

Ha ha, I get it. Another reference about how I must be a an idiot because I think logically. Funny. Did Glen Beck put that in his latest book as a foot note?

Why is it on this forum, and I ask this as an honest question, that very few people that respond in these subjects can go for more then two paragraphs without blaming someone that they are arguing against of being some evil secret "liberal"?

I'm not accusing you of being logical, or even of being a liberal - I'm not that mean. :D

The comment wasn't even aimed at you and is not so Glenn Beck as it is Freakanomics. Cheap labor to build big houses, cheap labor to clean them and take care of the yards has contributed to the McMansion and overbuilding of housing over the past two decades. This is just another symptom of our consumerism and short term thinking. Illegal immigration has warped our country and our culture in many ways that I think aren't readily apparent. Since global warming is the deadly sin 1-7 in the church of the left, I was offering the comment as a general way smack the ball back into the borderless crowds court.

Spiffums

04-27-10, 09:21

It's not that American's aren't willing to do it for the pay, it's that most Americans feel they are entitled to not have to do shit when it comes to making money.

They go to college to get a big job in a high rise and drive BMWs and land rovers.................... and it is just a pipe dream like everything else. I wonder how many kids are sitting in college today that wont ever work in what they studied for. I know I never have because of all the state hiring freezes and other assorted happenstance.

Belmont31R

04-27-10, 12:21

First let me clarify something: You keep saying "YOU" as if I am somehow responsible for this. I told you that I live in Apple Country. I am not the owner, or an employee on an apple farm. Nor have I ever worked on one. I mentioned my future in-laws own a cherry farm in the middle of cherry country in Oregon. I also stated that it is only family that works on this farm. So to clarify, when you as in YOU Belmont31R, are referring to ME you are wrong, and should be using "they".

Second. Your telling me that $10 an hour offered under the table to hire seasonal legal employees isn't enough money? Your point may be valid. But if it is, it doesn't change the reality of capitalism. Those farm owners determined that in order to stay competitive on a global market that was the maximum they were capable of paying their pickers in order to stay competitive. If they paid more to hire legal workers they wouldn't have been able to sell their products and stay in business. This is the entire dichotomy I am talking about, and the realities of free market capitalism.

You keep speaking about "paying 3rd world wages", well, open your eyes. The large majority of consumer products produced and sold in this country are done so by corporations paying 3rd world wages. If they don't do it here in the US with illegal immigrants, they do it abroad. This is because, like I said before capitalism will seek to get the most amount of work for the least amount of pay.

Yes that is exactly what is happening the employer is cheating the system and we all suffer. But what exactly is your proposal to change this? You gripe about it, you blame the illegals as if they are some how the cause, and then to top it off you have the audacity to then go further and blame unions that originated as a way to counter this reality prior to fair labor laws. So what exactly do you suggest happens? If you boot the illegals you have several in country industries that are no longer capable of making a profit because their wages can't support a legal US worker. These companies close down, or move abroad. Thus, there are no jobs created in this country. It's a Catch 22.

The only reason you were ever capable of having the life that you have today was because of government regulated capitalism. If you don't believe this, or refuse to accept it, you are honestly ignorant of your own nations history.

In regards to you and your family. Really? No going back? So if you lost your job today, and the only job available was a 10 dollar an hour apple picking job you wouldn't take it? If you did have to take it, and you couldn't make ends meat what would you do? What if your kid got sick?

No offense but this is such a twisted and convoluted version of history it barely even deserves a response. The only reason you have the 1st World standards you talk about is because of the labor movement. It sure as hell wasn't because of the bosses. Did the labor movement eventually fall into problems and become less about the workers? Yea in some situations it did. In others it did not. But you have completely failed to address the reality of the questions your complaining about, and have also failed completely to offer a valid solution given the realities of World Trade.

If you want to close the US borders completely, and only have an internal economy that trades only amongst the 50 states, then say so. Also suggest to us how to accomplish it and make it sustainable.

You being a hypothetical crop owner.

It simply costs me money to work for $10 an hour in my current situation since I have 2 young kids at home. My 1st job out of the Army was around $12/hr before taxes, and I ended up losing money.

I never said any regulation is bad. Our system is setup to be as close to capitalism as you can get while not being anarchy. Now its closer to socialism than capitalism but thats another thread.

If you (or anyone else) wants to hire legal American workers then you need to offer enough pay to get applicants in the door. $10/hr is not that much for what is probably pretty hard work, and its barely enough for a single person living in a cheap apartment to get by on working it full time. A college student may not even be able to put in the time to even make it worth it. My wife goes to school, and works at night because she can't work during the day, and go to school. For every hour she is in class she has 1-3 hours at home studying.

Yes crappy employers are what gave way to unions. Not all of them. But plenty of them. I think most unions should have gone away with modern labor laws as they no longer serve a purpose other than to pad the wallets of the union bosses, and stay relevant. Some offer job training programs which is nice, keeps certain skill sets alive in the US. But then you get UAW type operations which force the employer into bankruptcy. State workers unions driving their states into bankruptcy.

For food products I see lots of advertisements, and I try to buy local as much as I can. I don't think we should even be importing food from 3rd world countries, and I wouldn't even care if produce prices doubled as long as I knew I was buying American made produce, and picked by legal Americans. We are paying that now its just the cost is shifted off the price I pay at the super market to taxes to take care of the illegals.

Belmont31R

04-27-10, 12:24

They go to college to get a big job in a high rise and drive BMWs and land rovers.................... and it is just a pipe dream like everything else. I wonder how many kids are sitting in college today that wont ever work in what they studied for. I know I never have because of all the state hiring freezes and other assorted happenstance.

Colleges sell plenty of worthless degrees. One of my friends from HS for instance got a bachelors from UCLA in.....philosophy. Now he works at a bank making 15 bucks an hour with around 100k in school loans to pay back.

Buck

04-27-10, 12:36

Colleges sell plenty of worthless degrees. One of my friends from HS for instance got a bachelors from UCLA in.....philosophy. Now he works at a bank making 15 bucks an hour with around 100k in school loans to pay back.

This is why there is OCS...

B

Irish

04-27-10, 12:39

Just makes me want to move to AZ even more.

Mac5.56

04-27-10, 12:43

The comment wasn't even aimed at you and is not so Glenn Beck as it is Freakanomics. Cheap labor to build big houses, cheap labor to clean them and take care of the yards has contributed to the McMansion and overbuilding of housing over the past two decades. This is just another symptom of our consumerism and short term thinking. Illegal immigration has warped our country and our culture in many ways that I think aren't readily apparent. Since global warming is the deadly sin 1-7 in the church of the left, I was offering the comment as a general way smack the ball back into the borderless crowds court.

Very awesome points. This is why I tell most people I meet that we all know there is a problem with the path this society is taking, and we all know that it is insanely complex, we just can't figure out how the hell to move forward. Your points are contributing factors I hadn't looked at in that way before.

I was really just joking about the Glen Beck stuff. Glad you took my response well.

I think the reality is that we over consume, and capitalism has stepped up to the plate to provide. I personally try really hard to limit my consumption. In fact guns are my only hobby that I purchase things for (and that is mostly ammo for the guns I already own). Because we limit our consumption, we are able to live a middle class life style with a lower middle class income. People should try it, it's actually pretty liberating.

Mac5.56

04-27-10, 12:53

You being a hypothetical crop owner.

It simply costs me money to work for $10 an hour in my current situation since I have 2 young kids at home. My 1st job out of the Army was around $12/hr before taxes, and I ended up losing money.

I never said any regulation is bad. Our system is setup to be as close to capitalism as you can get while not being anarchy. Now its closer to socialism than capitalism but thats another thread.

If you (or anyone else) wants to hire legal American workers then you need to offer enough pay to get applicants in the door. $10/hr is not that much for what is probably pretty hard work, and its barely enough for a single person living in a cheap apartment to get by on working it full time. A college student may not even be able to put in the time to even make it worth it. My wife goes to school, and works at night because she can't work during the day, and go to school. For every hour she is in class she has 1-3 hours at home studying.

Yes crappy employers are what gave way to unions. Not all of them. But plenty of them. I think most unions should have gone away with modern labor laws as they no longer serve a purpose other than to pad the wallets of the union bosses, and stay relevant. Some offer job training programs which is nice, keeps certain skill sets alive in the US. But then you get UAW type operations which force the employer into bankruptcy. State workers unions driving their states into bankruptcy.

For food products I see lots of advertisements, and I try to buy local as much as I can. I don't think we should even be importing food from 3rd world countries, and I wouldn't even care if produce prices doubled as long as I knew I was buying American made produce, and picked by legal Americans. We are paying that now its just the cost is shifted off the price I pay at the super market to taxes to take care of the illegals.

I agree with everything that you said in this post! But I still don't know if we can accomplish all of it as a nation. I'm not saying I don't think we should try, I'm just saying I don't think we can.

Especially when it comes to food production.

I don't think that either Dem or Rep would be capable of revising our tariff laws in such a way as to place emphasis on American's working for a fair wage.

Trust me I would love to see it happen. I have a terminal degree, I "work" in my field daily, but since the market collapsed in other areas, so to did the art market. My art is no longer selling even though it's been in some of the top gallery locations in the world (very little art is selling). I no longer teach because of lay offs due to bankrupt state governments. I make a living wage at a bar, never see my fiance, and spend my work day with some of the lower examples of human decency on the planet.

I realize that we all like to talk about changing the entire system, but one thing that I have been trying really hard to do is like you said, support local farmers. I realize it is kind of "hippie trendy" at the moment, but my fiance and I purchase a share of Community Supported Agriculture every year. We always pick a farm that officers meat too, in order to insure that they're not super hippies. To tell you the truth it really does insure that your produce is coming from within your state (and sometimes county) border. Plus if your into canning and preserving, well, you get plenty of food and you know exactly where it is coming from!

Eddiesketti

04-27-10, 14:19

Incentives for illegals hurt the US. One thing that hurts immigrants is NAFTA. When Clinton passed NAFTA, crop growers in Mexico couldn't afford to sell corn and other produce to make a profit because the US produce sold for less. The mom and pop grocery cart he used to feed his 3 or 4 kids with now makes nothing. It would be a logical choice to go where the money is being made.

I do not want illegals here siphoning the money from each state with anchor kids holding them here. In my short stint working for the State, i noticed a lot of this type who already knew the system and all the benefits they are entitled to.

There are alot of other illegal immigrants here than that of the hispanic culture. Students with expired visas, visitors from abroad who never left, etc...

It should be stiffer penalties for those who broke the law. Individuals, companies, everything.

ForTehNguyen

04-27-10, 14:31

the funny thing is the AZ bill is basically a copy paste of federal immigration laws and procedures into the state level so the state can enforce it. So if people had a problem with AZ's bill then they have to have a problem with the federal level

but lets be honest, the only reason they are mad because someone is actually chasing them now, unlike the feds who were asleep at the wheel.

Heres the bill, a whopping 19 pages!
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf

excerpts:

A. NO OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR
17 OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY LIMIT OR RESTRICT THE
18 ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL EXTENT
19 PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW.

A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS
35 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW
36 ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
37 1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
38 2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
39 3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL
40 IDENTIFICATION.
41 4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES
42 BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT
43 ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.

K. THIS SECTION SHALL BE IMPLEMENTED IN A MANNER CONSISTENT WITH
17 FEDERAL LAWS REGULATING IMMIGRATION, PROTECTING THE CIVIL RIGHTS OF ALL
18 PERSONS AND RESPECTING THE PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF UNITED STATES
19 CITIZENS.

B. The terms of this act regarding immigration shall be construed to
41 have the meanings given to them under federal immigration law.
42 C. This act shall be implemented in a manner consistent with federal
43 laws regulating immigration, protecting the civil rights of all persons and
44 respecting the privileges and immunities of United States citizens.

arbninftry

04-27-10, 20:42

Just makes me want to move to AZ even more.

I am visiting this weekend. I want to give them some good old tourist greenbacks!

Honu

04-27-10, 21:32

I hate to do this, but let me use an argument you should be familiar with: A criminal is a criminal and they will break the law no matter what level of government legislation is put into place in an attempt to stop this.

So, how exactly, will creating hollow legislation help get rid of these evil doers that you are talking about?

so you are saying have no laws ? just let them all come here and do what they want ??

yes a criminal is a criminal and every single one here without going through proper steps is a criminal !!!

so we need to send them back I dont buy the OH most of them are just honest people !!!!
they are NOT honest people they broke the law and chances are have stolen ID and documents to work here and they dont give back so they are a billion + dollar drain on AZ
you can justify it all you want but the fact is every one of them is a criminal just dif levels of criminals and most of them are identity thieves as well !

it sounds like you are a open borders person ?

also my wife is not from this country and we had to do all the steps to get her here LEGALLY
I dont like to see people cheat the system and not do what is the correct thing to do !!!!! or I could say BREAK THE LAW !!!

CyberM4

04-27-10, 21:38

The come here with backpacks and bedrolls. which no one checks. So who knows what they bring into our Country.

Oscar 319

04-27-10, 21:47

Dunderway

04-27-10, 22:06

This is why there is OCS...

B

Or even a well planned enlistment. I finished my BS using Tuition Assistance without paying a dime, and still have an untouched GI Bill for future use.

This country still offers a way for people that want to get ahead.

Dunderway

04-27-10, 22:13

Little will ever change until our borders are completely locked down. The Marines should be deployed along the border and lethal force should be used to protect it.

If that does not happen, we will continue the on going game of cat and mouse. The drug cartels will continue to rule the region.

Right on! Let's deploy our armed forces to shoot women and children who are searching for a better life. Getting bloody with the MS-13 types is one thing, but I always find these types of outlandish statements especially ridiculous.

Oscar 319

04-27-10, 22:50

Right on! Let's deploy our armed forces to shoot women and children who are searching for a better life. Getting bloody with the MS-13 types is one thing, but I always find these types of outlandish statements especially ridiculous. :confused:

I have no problem with those in search of a better life. In fact, over the years I have come to appreciate them. They learn english, pay taxes, follow the rules and many of them pursue citizenship.

I would hope that women, children and even men looking for work or a better life would come through and check in, so to speak, and not risk the consequences of crossing illegally.

What I do have a problem with is, as you stated "MS13 types", coyotes that smuggle these poor people, the cartels slaughtering the Mexican police (who also have a strong foothold in numerous cities in the United States) and the hundreds of pounds of dope brought into this country daily.

Sorry if my post sounded like "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out". It was not.

glocktogo

04-27-10, 23:20

There wouldn't be illegal immigration in this country if there weren't corrupt citizens of this nation that are willing to break the law by hiring illegals for the purpose of making a profit. Until this is addressed illegal immigration wont go away.

I find it hard to discriminate against a nationality especially considering that in all honesty if I had to pick between a mexican immigrant and an average college kid to go out on a labor call to say, re-build a basement to a house (something I have done) I would pick the mexican every time based purely on work ethic. The hardest working people I have ever met are usually immigrants.

This is a very pro-capitalist forum, and pro free market. I don't understand the contradiction that comes up when looking at the simple fact that capitalism encourages the hiring of individuals who can do the most amount of work for the least amount of pay. That is the free market! Even if we made a law that got rid of ALL illegal immigrants in the country, and only allowed legal immigrants to work jobs, and even if it was strictly enforced 100% in some idealistic wonderland, you would still see immigrants taking up most of the lower tier jobs in this country and they would continue to workmore productively then the typical US citizen for the minimum amount of pay!

Am I a proponent of illegal immigration? Nope. Do I think the movement against it and current immigration laws are basically racist at their core? Yep I do. They refuse to address the problem at its core, and focus on blaming the individual trying to make a buck, rather then the system that encourages it. But that's my opinion and I will allow you to now go crazy on me about how I am a some kind of insane leftist for seeing the complexity of the situation for what it is.

Also getting rid of illegal immigrants wont get rid of crime, or gang violence. Pipe dreams are just that and nothing more.

This is wrong. The reason there is illegal immigration is because of the American dream. Illegal immigrants don't come from Mexico alone. They come from Canada, Europe, Eastern Europe, Asia, the Middle East, etc. When our country has more and another country has less, they will try to come regardless of the law.

Everyone focuses on the Hispanic issue, when in fact it's a Mexico issue. Not Mexicans, Mexico. It's a cesspool of a country that's awash in corruption, graft and illegal activity. They actively encourage their citizens to flee to America so they can send back their earnings. Earnings that support the corrupt regimes all across Mexico.

They do everything in their power to thumb their noses at us while breaking our laws, then call us racist when we try to do something about it. Americans are not nearly as racist as Mexico. The whole "American racism against Hispanics" is a red herring. They do not want legal immigration or to cooperate with our country. They need illegal immigration to continue. It props up their corrupt system. It's not even a system, it's a way of life.

What's laughable is the national pride immigrants display for the country they fled. It's one thing to be proud of who you are. It's another to be proud of a place that's so bad you can't live there anymore.

American greed is not responsible for illegal immigration, Mexico's greed is. The sooner we all stop feeling guilty for doing well in life, the sooner we can figure out how to solve the problem.

My first step would be to cut all diplomatic ties with Mexico and eject every Mexican diplomat from the country. Cut off all funding to Mexico and impose a trade embargo. I would continue to enforce the border with CBP, but they would be backed by military forces with the means to destroy sources of drug violence, to include cross border attacks if warranted.

Only when Mexico was on their knees begging for salvation would I explain that help requires concessions and full access to their system. As far as I'm concerned, they're one step away from Somalia right now. That's too great a threat to have on our border. It's well past time to stop bowing to them and start telling them how it's going to be.

We don't need to dumb down our country. We need to smarten theirs up.

Honu

04-28-10, 00:03

Right on! Let's deploy our armed forces to shoot women and children who are searching for a better life. Getting bloody with the MS-13 types is one thing, but I always find these types of outlandish statements especially ridiculous.

do you feel the same way about the coyotes that rape the little girls to smuggle them in or hold the dads hostage and torture them looking for a better life ?

if the borders were shut down with maximum punishment then chances are the crossing would dry up quite a bit ! only hardened criminals would try it !

most try it now cause all that happens is they get some water food and sent back home where they just turn around and do it again

when I lived in Honduras their were large signs at the airports and such that said
if you get caught with drugs you get 25 years in prison no questions asked you go straight to jail !

its simple the amount of drugs smuggled out of honduras was quite low cause of that
only the hardened ones would do it !

if the laws for anything are steep enough MOST people will not do it SOME will always try though

Honu

04-28-10, 00:08

VERY WELL SAID !!!!!

so true

I also laugh and think if you love your country so much to wave the Mexican flag in these marches and call us racist when you are here illegally go back home then !!!!!

This is wrong. The reason there is illegal immigration is because of the American dream. Illegal immigrants don't come from Mexico alone. They come from Canada, Europe, Eastern Europe, Asia, the Middle East, etc. When our country has more and another country has less, they will try to come regardless of the law.

Everyone focuses on the Hispanic issue, when in fact it's a Mexico issue. Not Mexicans, Mexico. It's a cesspool of a country that's awash in corruption, graft and illegal activity. They actively encourage their citizens to flee to America so they can send back their earnings. Earnings that support the corrupt regimes all across Mexico.

They do everything in their power to thumb their noses at us while breaking our laws, then call us racist when we try to do something about it. Americans are not nearly as racist as Mexico. The whole "American racism against Hispanics" is a red herring. They do not want legal immigration or to cooperate with our country. They need illegal immigration to continue. It props up their corrupt system. It's not even a system, it's a way of life.

What's laughable is the national pride immigrants display for the country they fled. It's one thing to be proud of who you are. It's another to be proud of a place that's so bad you can't live there anymore.

American greed is not responsible for illegal immigration, Mexico's greed is. The sooner we all stop feeling guilty for doing well in life, the sooner we can figure out how to solve the problem.

My first step would be to cut all diplomatic ties with Mexico and eject every Mexican diplomat from the country. Cut off all funding to Mexico and impose a trade embargo. I would continue to enforce the border with CBP, but they would be backed by military forces with the means to destroy sources of drug violence, to include cross border attacks if warranted.

Only when Mexico was on their knees begging for salvation would I explain that help requires concessions and full access to their system. As far as I'm concerned, they're one step away from Somalia right now. That's too great a threat to have on our border. It's well past time to stop bowing to them and start telling them how it's going to be.

We don't need to dumb down our country. We need to smarten theirs up.

C-grunt

04-29-10, 01:22

What they dont talk about here in Az is how many illegals already left within the last few years. We passed a law a while back making all businesses ensure citizenship through the feds.

We had approximately 100k people leave the state. They even say this has had a huge negative impact on our economy here. Thats 100k less people buying food, cars and other taxed items.

They do like to spout off the dramatic decline in murders though. But then again they arent telling the whole story. It was the decline in the found executed Mexican national that was killed by the coyotes.

The drug runners are still killing and kidnapping each other here and this imigration bill isnt going to stop that.

Im all for protecting our borders and believe thats where it needs to be enforced. Not 200 miles inland.

Cascades236

04-29-10, 01:34

CNN ran a story on a couple of businesses in Arizona that cater to Hispanics. The owners stated that the roads are empty and business is down because Hispanics are afraid to drive in the streets.

Who created this fear? The lefties.. Their knee jerk cry baby "this is going to be Nazi America! This is racism!" remarks have put the fear into the ignorant.

Fact of the matter is that police in AZ have been questioning people for years with no qualms or issues. This law doesn't allow for a violation of the 4th amendment, it doesn't allow the police to spot a brown man and detain him on the color of his skin as the big D's are trying to rally. This law allows me to investigate a possible immigration violation when my DUI arrestee hands me a bogus social security card.

While I'm posting,
Does anyone have a list of Arizona based business handy? While cities such as LA, SF and maybe even Seattle want to boycott Arizona to show their lack of support, I'd like to patronize an AZ based business if applicable to show my support.

Dunderway

04-29-10, 22:36

:confused:

I have no problem with those in search of a better life. In fact, over the years I have come to appreciate them. They learn english, pay taxes, follow the rules and many of them pursue citizenship.

I would hope that women, children and even men looking for work or a better life would come through and check in, so to speak, and not risk the consequences of crossing illegally.

What I do have a problem with is, as you stated "MS13 types", coyotes that smuggle these poor people, the cartels slaughtering the Mexican police (who also have a strong foothold in numerous cities in the United States) and the hundreds of pounds of dope brought into this country daily.

Sorry if my post sounded like "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out". It was not.

I worked in illegal immigrant interdiction for quite a while, and have an emotional tie to the issue because of it. You would be surprized at the nice honest people who risk dying of exposure/being consumed by sharks to come here and pick our fruit. I apologize for attacking you like that without clarification on what you actually meant. We seem to be in agreement.

Dunderway

04-29-10, 22:45

do you feel the same way about the coyotes that rape the little girls to smuggle them in or hold the dads hostage and torture them looking for a better life ?

if the borders were shut down with maximum punishment then chances are the crossing would dry up quite a bit ! only hardened criminals would try it !

most try it now cause all that happens is they get some water food and sent back home where they just turn around and do it again

when I lived in Honduras their were large signs at the airports and such that said
if you get caught with drugs you get 25 years in prison no questions asked you go straight to jail !

its simple the amount of drugs smuggled out of honduras was quite low cause of that
only the hardened ones would do it !

if the laws for anything are steep enough MOST people will not do it SOME will always try though

I think that I differentiated between that scum, and migrant workers in the very post that you quoted.

As mentioned in my previous post, women and children regularly face death to come here daily. I have images of the consequences of them failing to get here burned into my mind forever. At least those were caused by mother nature and not a U.S. citizen.

I love spending time in Latin America, but I hold MY country to a higher standard than that of Honduras, and I think you should too.

Mac5.56

04-30-10, 03:06

I worked in illegal immigrant interdiction for quite a while, and have an emotional tie to the issue because of it. You would be surprized at the nice honest people who risk dying of exposure/being consumed by sharks to come here and pick our fruit. I apologize for attacking you like that without clarification on what you actually meant. We seem to be in agreement.

How dare you be a human about this! Jesus didn't say "let he without sin cast the first stone." He said "Cast the First Stone!"

You just summed up what makes me f@cking sick about this argument.

Oscar 319

04-30-10, 05:37

I worked in illegal immigrant interdiction for quite a while, and have an emotional tie to the issue because of it. You would be surprized at the nice honest people who risk dying of exposure/being consumed by sharks to come here and pick our fruit. I apologize for attacking you like that without clarification on what you actually meant. We seem to be in agreement.

Yup. It is a human tragedy in so many different ways. Working with it daily is exausting and frustrating.

I guess I'll put you back on my list for a Christmas card. :p

glocktogo

04-30-10, 07:30

How dare you be a human about this! Jesus didn't say "let he without sin cast the first stone." He said "Cast the First Stone!"

You just summed up what makes me f@cking sick about this argument.

So you're really upset about Mexico's treatment of it's citizens too? Isn't it terrible that they refuse to clean up their own country enough to keep their citizens from fleeing?

ZDL

04-30-10, 10:49

*******

Abraxas

04-30-10, 10:56

The drug runners are still killing and kidnapping each other here and this imigration bill isnt going to stop that.

Im all for protecting our borders and believe thats where it needs to be enforced. Not 200 miles inland.

It needs to be enforced everywhere.

Oscar 319

04-30-10, 13:39

This is what I have a problem with. This makes my stomach turn. This is what our Border Patrol Agents (CBP) face daily along our borders.

Teen gets 40 years for killing Calif. border agent
Robert Rosas was shot eight times in the head, neck, and torso

By Elliot Spagat
Associated Press

Related Articles:

Teen pleads guilty in Calif. border agent's death
Border Patrol agent slain while responding to incursion

SAN DIEGO — A 17-year-old Mexican was sentenced to 40 years in prison Thursday for murdering a U.S. Border Patrol agent who was lured from his vehicle during an attempted robbery and shot repeatedly in the head.

Defendant Christian Daniel Castro Alvarez, described as a one-time smuggler of illegal immigrants, sat with his head down throughout the hearing, as the wife and sisters of 30-year-old Robert Rosas emotionally described how his execution shattered their lives.

Castro wrote a letter, read in court by the judge, saying he was "extremely sorry" and wished he could turn back the clock.

The sentencing came as a tough, new law in Arizona thrust illegal immigration back into the national spotlight. The law requires local and state law enforcement officers to question people about their immigration status if there's reason to suspect they're in the country illegally.

U.S. District Judge M. James Lorenz said the "cold-blooded killing" of Rosas changed the dynamics along the U.S.-Mexico border by making agents more fearful for their safety.

"Agents now have to question if they will be ambushed," he said.

Alluding to the robbery attempt, Lorenz said Border Patrol agents must now worry about being attacked "over night-vision goggles or some other ridiculous thing."

Uniformed Border Patrol agents and family members of Rosas in the packed courtroom burst into applause after the judge announced the sentence.

The circumstances of the killing were not entirely clear.

Rosas was shot eight times in the head, neck and torso while on solo patrol the night of July 23, 2009 in a rugged, remote mountainous area near Campo, about 60 miles east of San Diego. He was shot repeatedly from behind.

His body was found with his wallet less than 100 yards from the border. His vehicle was nearby with the engine running and headlights on.

Britt Craig, a civilian who monitors the border for illegal activity and calls the Border Patrol with anything suspicious, told reporters he spoke with Rosas about 15 minutes before the execution.

The agent said he was tracking four people seen walking along the Mexican side of the border fence, apparently preparing to enter the United States illegally.

"He said, 'Yeah, we're going to catch those guys. I'll come back and tell you about it,'" Craig said.

Castro told authorities he and his collaborators lured Rosas out of his vehicle by leaving footprints on a dirt road, shaking bushes and making noise. Castro said he was holding Rosas at gunpoint when the agent reached for Castro's firearm.

Castro, then 16, said he shot once and shouted to his collaborators for help as they walked toward Rosas' vehicle. They turned and opened fire.

Castro said one of his collaborators shot him in the hand, leaving a trail of blood back to Mexico. Castro's DNA matched the blood.

Authorities believe the suspects fled back to Mexico through a small crevice under a border fence made of corrugated metal

Castro surrendered to authorities at a San Diego border crossing in August, less than a month after Rosas died, but the arrest was not announced until Castro pleaded guilty three months later after being charged as an adult.

His attorney Ezekiel Cortez said Castro had two collaborators who are now in Mexico. No other arrests have been announced.

"There are two people somewhere in Mexico that should be hearing this," Cortez said. "These are the two that brutally committed this murder."

Debra Hartman, a spokeswoman for the U.S. attorney's office, declined to comment on any other possible suspects.

The judge said Castro told authorities he was threatened with death if he didn't participate in the robbery or if he didn't leave Tijuana, Mexico, after Rosas was killed. The judge didn't say who may have threatened the teenager.

Castro was raised in a one-room shack and abandoned by his parents by the time he was 12. At one point, he smuggled illegal immigrants, the judge said.

Rosas was the first Border Patrol agent killed by gunfire since 1998, according to The Officer Down Memorial Page, a website that tracks death of law enforcement officers.

Like many people raised in California's Imperial Valley, Rosas found a career in law enforcement. He was a state prison guard for six years before joining the Border Patrol in 2006.

He is survived his wife, Rosalie, and two young children. Prosecutors wrote the judge last week that the children still run to the front door calling "Papa" when a car pulls up to the house.

His widow's voice trembled as she told the judge how much her husband loved his job and cherished his children. A baseball fanatic, he had looked forward to taking his son to his first professional baseball game.

http://www.policeone.com/border-patrol/articles/2055951-Teen-gets-40-years-for-killing-Calif-border-agent/

Mac5.56

04-30-10, 14:37

So you're really upset about Mexico's treatment of it's citizens too? Isn't it terrible that they refuse to clean up their own country enough to keep their citizens from fleeing?

Never said I wasn't. But the easiest way to attempt to win an argument is to put words, and generalizations in the mouth of the person your arguing against... Nice try.

Mac5.56

04-30-10, 14:41

Simple solution. Make the requirements and process of becoming a citizen stringent but quick. We should be recruiting people from other countries who have the skills we need and desire to become an American.

I agree 100% with this statement. I wonder too how "easy" it was when my grandparents got off the boat three generations ago. I would encourage all of us to look up the steps it took our ancestors to become citizens, then ask yourself if they could accomplish the same thing today.

[QUOTE=]People have this view that to become an American is to "get" something by plugging into our expansive social programs. No one says "I want to come to America to support her, start a business, supply jobs to other Americans and pay taxes".
/QUOTE]

I don't agree with that at all. Almost 80% of the convenient stores in my area are owned by immigrants. OWNED. So they pay taxes, own a business, and do everything you say they aren't interested in. All of the immigrants I know work their asses off, and as a result contribute quite a bit to this society.

ZDL

04-30-10, 15:08

*******

Abraxas

04-30-10, 15:27

People have this view that to become an American is to "get" something by plugging into our expansive social programs. No one says "I want to come to America to support her, start a business, supply jobs to other Americans and pay taxes".

I don't agree with that at all. Almost 80% of the convenient stores in my area are owned by immigrants. OWNED. So they pay taxes, own a business, and do everything you say they aren't interested in. All of the immigrants I know work their asses off, and as a result contribute quite a bit to this society.
I dont think that the American people as a whole have a problem with those immigrants that are legal. It is the illegal ones that people are upset with. And before someone starts with the fact that many illegals work keep in mind that only 13% of illegals work. That leaves the vast majority that do not, that are draining our social programs and straining our our infrastructure.

downbad

04-30-10, 16:12

How are they applying for these welfare programs? Do they not know that that are illegals? I would think there is a process to getting these funds, like providing proof of citizenship. Well... now that i think about it, you dont even have to provide proof of citizenship to be president.

That last statement was being cute, but seriously, how are criminals getting our tax dollars?

Oscar 319

04-30-10, 17:29

I dont think that the American people as a whole have a problem with those immigrants that are legal. It is the illegal ones that people are upset with. And before someone starts with the fact that many illegals work keep in mind that only 13% of illegals work. That leaves the vast majority that do not, that are draining our social programs and straining our our infrastructure.

At this point, I don't mind immigrants that are here illegally, so long as they are here to intigrate into our society and be a part of our country. This would mean learning english, paying taxes, obtaining a form of United States identification, obtaining a legitimate job and obeying the laws.

I work in a very culturally diverse city with an extremely high immigrant population.

I have encoutered families that are completely Americanized, are totally legitimate in every aspect of their lives with the exception of their immigration status.

On the other hand, I regularly encounter folks who flat out refuse to learn english or "join" this country in any other way simply because they know they will be accommodated.

I have been bluntly told that is MY JOB to know spanish by people I am trying to help.

I have encoutered entire families illegally living here that have went south of the border for vacation, and returned with out issue?

I have been told it is OK to beat the wife because "that is how we do it in our country" (from Mexico and from Pakistan).

How are they applying for these welfare programs? Do they not know that that are illegals?

They apply for it and they get it. The immigration status does not matter. They will be accommodated.

Honu

04-30-10, 18:44

I think that I differentiated between that scum, and migrant workers in the very post that you quoted.

As mentioned in my previous post, women and children regularly face death to come here daily. I have images of the consequences of them failing to get here burned into my mind forever. At least those were caused by mother nature and not a U.S. citizen.

I love spending time in Latin America, but I hold MY country to a higher standard than that of Honduras, and I think you should too.

I never said I held Honduras higher ???
I am saying they have a sign and it clearly helps with such steep consequences ? so dont say I hold Honduras higher ? this sounds like a lefty move to me !

those images you have in your mind were not caused by mother nature !!!!
they were caused by the parents !!!!!!
mother nature did not make them do this
THEY CHOSE to put their kids in danger and on top of it breaking the law of the country they were trying to get into

I dont want criminals like this in our country !!

there are plenty of good honest people doing the proper steps to get here legally

Abraxas

04-30-10, 19:05

At this point, I don't mind immigrants that are here illegally, so long as they are here to intigrate into our society and be a part of our country. This would mean learning english, paying taxes, obtaining a form of United States identification, obtaining a legitimate job and obeying the laws.

I work in a very culturally diverse city with an extremely high immigrant population.

I have encountered families that are completely Americanized, are totally legitimate in every aspect of their lives with the exception of their immigration status.

On the other hand, I regularly encounter folks who flat out refuse to learn english or "join" this country in any other way simply because they know they will be accommodated.

I have been bluntly told that is MY JOB to know spanish by people I am trying to help.

I totally agree with your sentiment but we have have to enforce the law. I have always said that they should conform to us, not us conform to them. It is bullshit that they don't like their own country enough to stay, but come here and want to make this like their shit hole. In years past immigrants were not coddled, they were forced to learn enough and they made sure that their children learned english, and the American culture. They still kept small parts of their own but they still had to wholly adopt ours. But these days since we coddle them they dont have to learn or even respect our culture, the one that built all of this that they seem to want. The monetary cost alone is great, I read that New York spends several million dollars extra just to have the books that they have in english translated into 80 different languages. That is just one example of thousands

Mac5.56

04-30-10, 20:21

You do realize there is a world outside your own, right?

Do you? Seriously? Your statements are as broad and wide sweeping as anything I have ever said on this forum. Just because you have experience in one area doesn't mean your the g*d damn authority on all things involving the law, people who break the law, and all things political that involve the law. I'm pretty sick of your personal attacks that are nothing more then simple indications that you can't actually argue against my position with anything more then self proclaimed authority, and forum status.

If you actually took the time to calm down, you would be able to see that we agree quite more then you may actually think.

glocktogo

04-30-10, 20:59

Never said I wasn't. But the easiest way to attempt to win an argument is to put words, and generalizations in the mouth of the person your arguing against... Nice try.

Hardly generalizations, they're quite specific. I'm sick and tired of the white guilt, "everyone who opposes ILLEGAL immigration is an uncaring racist" bullshit! These same people who turn on their own countrymen like rabid pack animals routinely fail to place 80% of the blame exactly where it belongs, the shithole that is Mexico. We coddle their corrupt officials, send them hundreds of millions of dollars and get very little cooperation in return. Meanwhile, they openly and actively support illegal immigration into our country, all while they severely attack it in theirs.

This issue is not caused by American greed and it isn't caused by illegal immigrant greed. It's root is Mexican greed. Not the ones who come here trying to make a living, but the ones who stay behind and perpetuate corruption. The ones who smuggle humans and drugs to America. The ones who steal from the estimated 7 BILLION U.S. dollars sent back to Mexico by immigrants in America. The ones who kidnap their own people for ransom. It's THEIR greed that is to blame.

We all know that everyone exploits the illegal immigrants. The Chamber Republicans exploit them for cheap labor. The Democrats exploit them for votes. The Catholic church exploits them for tithe. The smugglers and kidnappers exploit them for services and cash. The Mexican government exploits them for Gross National Product.

Until you spend at least as much time assigning the bulk of the blame where it's due as you do placing it on Americans, your whiny protestations will fall on deaf ears. The focus of illegal immigration is overwhelmingly disproportionate. It's perpetuated by guilty parties from a myriad of sources. We will NEVER solve the illegal immigration problem on this side of the border. The lure of the American Dream and American dollar is too great. The only place that illegal immigration can be fixed is at the source, Mexico.

P.S. Mexican is a nationality, not a race. Anyone who claims that combating illegal immigration is racist is a lying, lowlife con artist. :mad:

Dunderway

04-30-10, 21:22

I never said I held Honduras higher ???
I am saying they have a sign and it clearly helps with such steep consequences ? so dont say I hold Honduras higher ? this sounds like a lefty move to me !

those images you have in your mind were not caused by mother nature !!!!
they were caused by the parents !!!!!!
mother nature did not make them do this
THEY CHOSE to put their kids in danger and on top of it breaking the law of the country they were trying to get into

I dont want criminals like this in our country !!

there are plenty of good honest people doing the proper steps to get here legally

It's not that much of a choice when your children are starving.

I don't want criminals in our country either. Your statement read as if you believed the harsh policies of Honduras were something that should be adopted here. I don't think I'm a lefty for believing that is what your post meant. It's common to shoot illegals in Mexico, maybe we should try to be just like Mexico!

Have you ever checked into our immigration system backlogs?

Here is an example of how things go down for someone who wishes to come here legally:

I am a verteran with a well paying job. I have a girlfriend that does not live in the U.S. and is not a citizen. If we want to get married it will take:

- At least one year (likely two) for her to even set foot in the U.S. legally.

-After she is here she would not be able to leave (mother gets sick, funeral, etc.) for about the same amount of time, and expect re-entry.

-This doesn't even factor the countless interrogations regarding our personal lifes, lawyer fees, gov fees, and hundreds of hours of paperwork.

All of this for someone that will be fully supported by a U.S. citizen that is also her spouse.

Does that sound like a reasonable way to enter the country? My grandmother signed a log in NY, and went about her business for 70 years.

I don't have an answer, but we need a better system. This system should not involve shooting to kill upon attempted entry.

ZDL

04-30-10, 21:26

*******

Dunderway

04-30-10, 21:41

P.S. Mexican is a nationality, not a race. Anyone who claims that combating illegal immigration is racist is a lying, lowlife con artist. :mad:

Not all of our illegals are from Mexico. I do not believe combatting it is racist, but people do have a problem with the process of combating it because it will come down to racial profiling (good or bad it will just be that way) in order to enforce the laws.

Example: There are ten random people in front of you, and I tell you that one is an illegal. I will give you $1000 if you can pick them out. What would your first visual process be for narowing your search for the illegal? Their race possibly?

I don't have a dog in that fight, but this is why people are getting upset and using the term racist. Nomatter what someone's opinion is on the issue, I am baffled that this is not painfully obvious to everyone.

Abraxas

04-30-10, 21:58

P.S. Mexican is a nationality, not a race. Anyone who claims that combating illegal immigration is racist is a lying, lowlife con artist. :mad:

Side note most people misuse the term raciest. Generally when most use it they really mean bigoted. Yes semantics are important, proper use of language is how we communicate with the fewest amount of misunderstandings.

Irish

04-30-10, 22:03

Not all of our illegals are from Mexico. I do not believe combatting it is racist, but people do have a problem with the process of combating it because it will come down to racial profiling (good or bad it will just be that way) in order to enforce the laws.

Example: There are ten random people in front of you, and I tell you that one is an illegal. I will give you $1000 if you can pick them out. What would your first visual process be for narowing your search for the illegal? Their race possibly?

I don't have a dog in that fight, but this is why people are getting upset and using the term racist. Nomatter what someone's opinion is on the issue, I am baffled that this is not painfully obvious to everyone.

15 million illegal Mexicans, or something close to it, and how many illegals do you think percentage wise come from other countries? Probably pretty frickin' low. Either way it's pretty easy for me to spot who the illegal is driving around every day. Look in front of Home Depot to start, typically in a hoodie, ballcap and shifting around being bored trying to flag you down to get some work.

Also, their mode of dress is still Mexican and not American of Mexican descent and if people don't agree they haven't spent enough time in Mexico, or around illegals and regular old brown Americans, there's a big difference. I'm not trying to be racist, just pointing out the obvious. Try living in Mexico for a while, I have for months at a time, and you'll see a truly classist, sexist and racist culture.

Have a good evening gents. I'm taking the wife to buy ice cream and settle down to watch the new Sherlock Holmes, go Netflix!

glocktogo

04-30-10, 22:34

Not all of our illegals are from Mexico. I do not believe combatting it is racist, but people do have a problem with the process of combating it because it will come down to racial profiling (good or bad it will just be that way) in order to enforce the laws.

Example: There are ten random people in front of you, and I tell you that one is an illegal. I will give you $1000 if you can pick them out. What would your first visual process be for narowing your search for the illegal? Their race possibly?

I don't have a dog in that fight, but this is why people are getting upset and using the term racist. Nomatter what someone's opinion is on the issue, I am baffled that this is not painfully obvious to everyone.

I previous posts I've mentioned that they come from all over the world for the American Dream. When our country has more than other countries, it will always be this way. But these laws as they have routinely been applied are only targeting illegal immigrants already in custody for another alleged crime. There are no lineups. When an illegal immigrant reports a crime, they are not targeted for removal.

Also, dont confuse percentages with racism. If a white officer's arrests are 95% black people, it isn't racism if 95% of his patrol beat is populated by blacks. If you have 500,000 illegal Hispanic immigrants in Arizona and 5,000 illegal immigrants of all other ethnicities, it stands to reason that the majority of those arrested under the new law will be Hispanics.

That's not racism, it's mathematics. ;)

Dunderway

04-30-10, 22:38

15 million illegal Mexicans, or something close to it, and how many illegals do you think percentage wise come from other countries? Probably pretty frickin' low. Either way it's pretty easy for me to spot who the illegal is driving around every day. Look in front of Home Depot to start, typically in a hoodie, ballcap and shifting around being bored trying to flag you down to get some work.

Also, their mode of dress is still Mexican and not American of Mexican descent and if people don't agree they haven't spent enough time in Mexico, or around illegals and regular old brown Americans, there's a big difference. I'm not trying to be racist, just pointing out the obvious. Try living in Mexico for a while, I have for months at a time, and you'll see a truly classist, sexist and racist culture.

Have a good evening gents. I'm taking the wife to buy ice cream and settle down to watch the new Sherlock Holmes, go Netflix!

Like I said, I'm not condoning or condeming it. There just will be some profiling that will have to take place to enforce things on a serious level.

I thought Sherlock Holmes was pretty darn entertaining, and was surprised that so many people disliked it so much.

Dunderway

04-30-10, 23:55

I previous posts I've mentioned that they come from all over the world for the American Dream. When our country has more than other countries, it will always be this way. But these laws as they have routinely been applied are only targeting illegal immigrants already in custody for another alleged crime. There are no lineups. When an illegal immigrant reports a crime, they are not targeted for removal.

Also, dont confuse percentages with racism. If a white officer's arrests are 95% black people, it isn't racism if 95% of his patrol beat is populated by blacks. If you have 500,000 illegal Hispanic immigrants in Arizona and 5,000 illegal immigrants of all other ethnicities, it stands to reason that the majority of those arrested under the new law will be Hispanics.

That's not racism, it's mathematics. ;)

Don't mistake what I'm saying. I'm not talking about the arrests, but what leads to it. A black person is statistically more likely to be a crack dealer than a white person, but if cops shake down random black people (without probable cause) in hopes that they find one that is a crack dealer it IS profiling. This is the same thing that will have to happen with people of Latin descent in order to arrest illegals. Legal U.S. citizens, minding their own business WILL be "harassed" because of their race.

I'm not being a bleeding heart over this, or even saying that it might not be necessary, I'm just telling it the way it is.

glocktogo

05-01-10, 00:27

Don't mistake what I'm saying. I'm not talking about the arrests, but what leads to it. A black person is statistically more likely to be a crack dealer than a white person, but if cops shake down random black people (without probable cause) in hopes that they find one that is a crack dealer it IS profiling. This is the same thing that will have to happen with people of Latin descent in order to arrest illegals. Legal U.S. citizens, minding their own business WILL be "harassed" because of their race.

I'm not being a bleeding heart over this, or even saying that it might not be necessary, I'm just telling it the way it is.

As a LEO, I disagree with this. You're essentially saying that LE has to break the law in order to enforce the law. Keep in mind that a sizable percentage of LEO's in areas with high ethnic populations are ethnic themselves. I'm just not buying it. :(

ZDL

05-01-10, 00:33

*******

downbad

05-01-10, 01:20

I think we make the immigration process much harder than it needs to be. Or maybe not harder than it needs to be but not what it should be. We are a country built on immigrants. We should "recruit" good imigrants. By that i mean a people that believe in the real Amercan dream and American soveriegnty. No free loaders and no one here to make money and bring it back to their country of origin. Inforce the laws on the books while not infringing on anyones rights. Thats all.

glocktogo

05-01-10, 01:47

Honu

05-01-10, 01:58

Have you ever checked into our immigration system backlogs?
Here is an example of how things go down for someone who wishes to come here legally:
I am a verteran with a well paying job. I have a girlfriend that does not live in the U.S. and is not a citizen. If we want to get married it will take:
- At least one year (likely two) for her to even set foot in the U.S. legally.
-After she is here she would not be able to leave (mother gets sick, funeral, et.) for about the same amount of time, and expect re-entry.
-This doesn't even factor the countless interrogations regarding our personal lifes, lawyer fees, gov fees, and hundreds of hours of paperwork.
All of this for someone that will be fully supported by a U.S. citizen that is also her spouse.
Does that sound like a reasonable way to enter the country? My grandmother signed a log in NY, and went about her business for 70 years.
I don't have an answer, but we need a better system. This system should not involve shooting to kill upon attempted entry.

I guess its clear you are not reading my posts !!!!! I HAVE GONE THROUGH IT !!!!!

have I ever checked into what it takes ??? YES my wife is not a US citizen she is going to go for that once her green card runs out in 3 years though
so I do know what it takes and my friend with his wife from Chile know !!
as many of my other friends !!!

I guess to you cause its tough people should just be able to skip it ?

do I think the system is perfect ? no not even close it sucks and they treat you like criminals ? but we did it my friends do it !!! WHY cause its the correct thing to do !

Dunderway

05-02-10, 00:01

As a LEO, I disagree with this. You're essentially saying that LE has to break the law in order to enforce the law. Keep in mind that a sizable percentage of LEO's in areas with high ethnic populations are ethnic themselves. I'm just not buying it. :(

I think you're taking my post the wrong way, and I don't think that the LEOs will have racist intentions. I just think that some proposed laws for fighting illegals will entail "racial profiling", whether it is right or wrong.

Example: Your department gets a call from DHS that they suspect a Taliban suicide bomber might attack your station in the next two days but they don't have a suspect. Who would you be watching for? What physical description would you have in your mind? You don't have to answer but be honest with yourself.

Now apply this to a major crackdown on illegal immigrants. I have blonde hair and blue eyes. Would you question me about my citizen status? What type of person might you look at and think, "hey, I wonder if they are here legally."?

I'm not blaming any of this on racism, but just pointing out why some people will obviously be upset about some of these laws.

Dunderway

05-02-10, 00:22

I guess its clear you are not reading my posts !!!!! I HAVE GONE THROUGH IT !!!!!

have I ever checked into what it takes ??? YES my wife is not a US citizen she is going to go for that once her green card runs out in 3 years though
so I do know what it takes and my friend with his wife from Chile know !!
as many of my other friends !!!

I guess to you cause its tough people should just be able to skip it ?

do I think the system is perfect ? no not even close it sucks and they treat you like criminals ? but we did it my friends do it !!! WHY cause its the correct thing to do !

Calm down and stop shouting. Sorry, but I did just notice the end of your one post on page 2. Until I looked back I wrongfully assumed that you were one of the thousands that shout "just come here legally", when they have no clue how ridiculous the process is.

If you don't mind saying, how long ago did your wife immigrate here and how long did the process take? It would be nice to have an idea of how much these thing are perpetuating.

I do not think that people should circumvent the law, but was only mentioning how ridiculous the laws are for people that want to follow them. It's no different than the gun laws in CA: Want a legal handgun now? Fill out all of these pages of forms, pay fees and wait. Want an illegal handgun now? Go to this corner with some cash. I'm not willing to do the latter so I just have to suffer through the former.

Illegal shit only backlogs the entire process more and more for people that want to get here legally. LIke I said, it's broken and needs to be fixed.

Honu

05-02-10, 14:16

I capatlize so you could see it ;)

it was about ten years ago we started
our first thing was to get a lawyer for a few hundred bucks just to make sure we would not miss anything
it took about a month to get a work permit once we filed and about two years to go from legal alien to resident alien

my buddy whos wife is from Chile had to go back for some paperwork that was not proper and theirs got delayed
the reason we were told get a lawyer for a few hundred bucks to double check everything was from many of our friends who had gone through the process
the hiccup he had did not effect the status just the time to get her resident card but the problem can come in if the legal alien runs out before your resident alien status ! its also important to make sure you know when things come up to get to the next step

also to say again you can work during the legal alien part which again took about a month or so ? cant remember exactly

I agree its a stupid setup and it needs fixing but at this point its the law ?
like California ! sorry but I would never live in California due to the laws and other idiocy they seem to do ?? so I have the choice to live somewhere else
Hawaii is really stupid with its gun laws but its home to me and I would trade that with the other things it offered in return and why I would still live their if I could (had to move cause the volcanic air destroyed my lungs which happens to a lot of people their)

while I feel for people wanting a better life
its again a matter of everyone in the world wants a better life
many I knew in Honduras would love to have the lives that many of the Mexican people had ?

but again I just think people in general want it NOW not to wait and they feel entitled to it

the HGTV show house hunters is a prime example couples wanting a first home always bitch
OH it doesnt have granite oh their is no stainless
OH we would have to totally redo this whole place
whine whine whine

and this is or seems to be world wide where everyone wants it now they are entitled and laws dont apply to me

thats my thoughts :)