View Full Version : NM - New Mexico will no longer recognize Utah CC permits. (Video)
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=10533777
SALT LAKE CITY -- New Mexico will no longer accept Utah's gun permits because officials there think Utah's training is inadequate.
State Public Safety Secretary John Denko says Utah licenses require significantly less training than New Mexico's. But Clark Aposhian with the Utah Shooting Sports Council says Utah has the best training in the country.
"I'll put up our training and our stats to show that it is as good if not better than any other state," he says.
Aposhian also says Utah made close to $1 million in gun sales revenue last year. He thinks New Mexico wants to cash in on that.
"It is a component in the balance sheet of a state's budget," he says. "It's all basically an excuse by saying that Utah's training is not as good."
Aposhian notes that Utah gun permits are very popular and are accepted in 35 states as opposed to about 21 for New Mexico gun permits.
He says there were reports that New Mexico gun trainers were urging gun owners to get Utah gun permits because they're cheaper. Utah charges $35 for gun licenses while New Mexico charges $100. Still, none of this justifies banning Utah gun permits, according to Aposhian.
"Utah has the best background checks. We check backgrounds every 24 hours and New Mexico has background checks every four years," he says.
The move to ban Utah gun permits is a bad move, says Aposhian, but he also believes gun owners should support the second amendment by buying gun permits from their own states.
Right now, New Mexico is working with 18 other states to ensure their gun permit requirements meet its strict state guidelines.
I see a trend starting.
Official DPS release: http://www.dps.nm.org/lawEnforcement/ccw/index.php
DPS Press Release
New Mexico No Longer Recognizes Utah Concealed Carry License
April 23, 2010
Contact: Peter Olson
(505) 827-3361
Santa Fe—Effective immediately New Mexico will no longer recognize concealed carry licenses issued by the State of Utah for the purposes of reciprocity in New Mexico, as the requirements for licensure in Utah do not meet the standards required in New Mexico statute. Rules governing the concealed carrying of weapons and issuance of licenses require that training and other provisions be as stringent or substantially similar to New Mexico requirements.
Questions concerning licenses obtained from Utah by New Mexico residents have made it necessary to reevaluate which states will be recognized as valid in New Mexico.
“We’ve had situations where certain concealed carry instructors in New Mexico solicit clients with the promise that if they train here and obtain a Utah license, which entails significantly less training than does a New Mexico license, it will qualify here,” said Department of Public Safety Secretary John Denko. “This is incorrect, and is nothing less than an effort to circumvent New Mexico concealed carry requirements which are designed to protect the public safety while honoring individual rights under the Second Amendment of the constitution.”
The state will also review the status of eighteen other states currently recognized on an informal basis, with the intent of entering into written agreements with these states to ensure compliance with New Mexico law. These states are: Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and Wyoming.
New Mexico currently has a written reciprocity agreement in place with Texas; the status of this agreement will remain unchanged.
That sucks. I am scheduled to move to NM next year. I have often questioned NM resolve as far as carry rights.:mad:
I live and work in the state and can tell you that very few of our lib. pols. are 2nd friendly. I took my ccw class in Feb. and it will be longer than 6 mos. before I will receive my permit. And it has not been all that many years ago that you could not carry concealed, but could carry openly almost anywhere. The cc laws have so damn many places that if you get caught carrying you will be going to jail that it's almost not worth the trouble. No carry in liquor est. no carry in state parks, schools, anywhere that owners of property want to ban etc. it's a bit rediculous.
I live and work in the state and can tell you that very few of our lib. pols. are 2nd friendly. I took my ccw class in Feb. and it will be longer than 6 mos. before I will receive my permit. And it has not been all that many years ago that you could not carry concealed, but could carry openly almost anywhere. The cc laws have so damn many places that if you get caught carrying you will be going to jail that it's almost not worth the trouble. No carry in liquor est. no carry in state parks, schools, anywhere that owners of property want to ban etc. it's a bit rediculous.
Hell you've got to wait 6 months for a permit! That is ridiculous. Also you still cannot carry into your local stop and rob due to the fact they sell alcohol. Correct? It took a long time to get carry laws in NM. But it seems there is a long way to go. All that crap really makes me not to want to make the move. Beautiful country though.
i see the trend starting too. dang it.
The trend isn't anti-CCW, it's more about getting the dollars for the permit back in state. Utah has made a shit ton of money (taxes and fees) because of their wide reaching CC permits reciprocity. These states just want a piece of the pie, and the only way they can ensure that people get the permit in their home state, and keep the money in state, is to not recognized other states permits. Don't get all "antsy in the pantsy" just yet.
John_Wayne777
04-27-10, 08:23
...yet another reason why I loathe the concept of a training requirement for CCW.
GermanSynergy
04-27-10, 09:03
Can't wait till my out of state Utah CCW permit arrives. :D
It's the closest any mortal Marylander will get to having a "real" CCW permit...... :rolleyes:
Correct, this is a potential source of income for New Mexico state government (the state's broke -- not California broke, but a half billion in the hole).
The more demanding training requirement? I believe it's 15 rounds at 7 or 10 yards.:rolleyes:
Yup, I live here in Albuquerque. Its easy to say the least. I carry no matter where I go, legal or not. And it can take six months but thats not NM deal, its FBI background. Same as getting an NFA weapon....
"Effective immediately" That blows ass right there. What you were doing yesterday is now illegal today with no effective warning of any kind.
Yup, I live here in Albuquerque. Its easy to say the least. I carry no matter where I go, legal or not. And it can take six months but thats not NM deal, its FBI background. Same as getting an NFA weapon....
If it's the FBI background as you state than why in NV can you get approved sometimes in less than 2 weeks? UT has a legal requirement that you have your paperwork processed and permit issued within 60 days as long as you have no "issues". UT also charges 1/2 the price of a lot of states at only $65.25 for 5 years and a $10 renewal fee without having to "retest" or go through another class.
The trend isn't anti-CCW, it's more about getting the dollars for the permit back in state. Utah has made a shit ton of money (taxes and fees) because of their wide reaching CC permits reciprocity. These states just want a piece of the pie, and the only way they can ensure that people get the permit in their home state, and keep the money in state, is to not recognized other states permits. Don't get all "antsy in the pantsy" just yet.
Why not?!?!? I travel to NM all the time and this is a huge pain in the ass. I neither have time or inclination to obtain ANOTHER CC permit in another state and my UT permit made it possible to defend myself and my family prior to this BS. When is the time to get all "antsy in the pantsy"? When they've taken away all our rights and guns?!?! Rarely do I walk that road but give me a ****in' break! Now is the time to get pissed and stand up and say something. Maybe I'll just join the Open Carry crowd, no fees, no permission and less bullshit.
Why not?!?!? I travel to NM all the time and this is a huge pain in the ass. I neither have time or inclination to obtain ANOTHER CC permit in another state and my UT permit made it possible to defend myself and my family prior to this BS. When is the time to get all "antsy in the pantsy"? When they've taken away all our rights and guns?!?! Rarely do I walk that road but give me a ****in' break! Now is the time to get pissed and stand up and say something. Maybe I'll just join the Open Carry crowd, no fees, no permission and less bullshit.
Whoa whoa whoaaaa! I'm not saying it's a good thing, just that I thought people were getting worried about Anti-CC rather than realizing it's a money issue. The CC movement is growing, and they want in on it, that's all I was getting at.
A smarter piece of legislation would be that a person is required to have their home states permit, while still allowing other states to maintain their reciprocity.
Whoa whoa whoaaaa! I'm not saying it's a good thing, just that I thought people were getting worried about Anti-CC rather than realizing it's a money issue. The CC movement is growing, and they want in on it, that's all I was getting at.
A smarter piece of legislation would be that a person is required to have their home states permit, while still allowing other states to maintain their reciprocity.
Sorry, maybe I was jumping the gun. I have lots of family in NM and go there a lot for work as well. After NV dropped FL & UT this past year it seems like more states will be headed that way. Again, sorry for the rant but I'm pissed.
FYI - NM isn't very 2nd Amendment friendly. Look at their alcohol laws VS concealed or open carry, they suck.
I remember a few years ago when they were trying to get the CCW laws passed in NM, I got into a debate with a man by the name of Steve Akin from down Carlsbad way. Steven was heavily involved in the push to get CCW through he legislature and on to the Gov's desk.
My position at the time was that the bill as proposed, No carry where they *sold* booze (read: grocery store), qualifying with every gun you planned to carry; was very close to no CCW at all. Steve made a point to say that it was a foot in the door and his strategy was incrimentalism. Get it on the books and then change the law.
I have to give it to Steve, they have done a lot with this strategy, and it's still working. they're getting restaurant carry in July. But the point is, this stuff changes all the time. Yes we have to keep up on it, but I think they're making more positive progress than not. and I'm not just saying that cause I lost a bet with Steve. But I'd bet he's back there trying to get DPS to change it again.
Having never had to rely on UT permits, I feel for you guys that need them and I agree, it sucks. I'm just happy that VA's permit is getting better everyday because it means I get to carry every time I'm back in home in NM.
Having never had to rely on UT permits, I feel for you guys that need them and I agree, it sucks. I'm just happy that VA's permit is getting better everyday because it means I get to carry every time I'm back in home in NM.
Florida's will cover it for now. However, I don't know how long that will be in effect and NM does not have a non-resident permit. This was taken off of the official NM site linked to above.
The state will also review the status of eighteen other states currently recognized on an informal basis, with the intent of entering into written agreements with these states to ensure compliance with New Mexico law. These states are: Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and Wyoming.
...yet another reason why I loathe the concept of a training requirement for CCW.
How would you feel about NM resident student drivers getting a Mexican drivers license that costs 1/3 of what a NM DL would cost, and requires no written or driving proficiency test? Do you think that letting 16 year olds loose in a car on the interstate with one 4 hour class and no testing is a good idea?
The fact is that the Utah CHL training requirements are a joke and if NM doesn't want to honor the Utah license then they are right to make that decision. It's the State of NM's right to make whatever decision they want.
When states bring their training and proficiency requirements up high enough to convince other states that their CHL holders are safe, then reciprocity works, just like with drivers licenses.
Now before I get a lot of replies about God given rights and the 2nd Amendment, let me say that I and the law agree that anyone can drive, or carry concealed, ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY, without a license. But once you set out amongst the public, you need to show that you are safe, knowledgeable and mature enough to carry your gun, or drive your car.
After years of carrying, competing and training with firearms, I'm as sick of unsafe, immature and ignorant folks carrying firearms as I am of crappy drivers.
Gringop
How would you feel about NM resident student drivers getting a Mexican drivers license that costs 1/3 of what a NM DL would cost, and requires no written or driving proficiency test? Do you think that letting 16 year olds loose in a car on the interstate with one 4 hour class and no testing is a good idea?
The 2 don't work very well as a comparison.
The fact is that the Utah CHL training requirements are a joke and if NM doesn't want to honor the Utah license then they are right to make that decision. It's the State of NM's right to make whatever decision they want.
When states bring their training and proficiency requirements up high enough to convince other states that their CHL holders are safe, then reciprocity works, just like with drivers licenses.
Now before I get a lot of replies about God given rights and the 2nd Amendment, let me say that I and the law agree that anyone can drive, or carry concealed, ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY, without a license. But once you set out amongst the public, you need to show that you are safe, knowledgeable and mature enough to carry your gun, or drive your car.
Reading books, putting on make up, texting, stuffing a burger down your throat etc. really shows how well that needing a drivers license has worked out. Look at Vermont, Alaska and soon to be Arizona and show me proof that training requirements help anything.
After years of carrying, competing and training with firearms, I'm as sick of unsafe, immature and ignorant folks carrying firearms as I am of crappy drivers.
Vermont and Alaska, again.
Gringop
Quick replies in red... hungry and it's lunch time.
Quick question, do you teach CC courses? Do you have a vested monetary interest in someone obtaining a permit?
John_Wayne777
04-27-10, 14:43
How would you feel about NM resident student drivers getting a Mexican drivers license that costs 1/3 of what a NM DL would cost, and requires no written or driving proficiency test? Do you think that letting 16 year olds loose in a car on the interstate with one 4 hour class and no testing is a good idea?
When CCW holders demonstrate that they are as much of a problem in everyday life as the 16 year olds are on the road, that might be a valid comparison.
Oh, and if that whole 2nd amendment thing was done away with too.
When states bring their training and proficiency requirements up high enough to convince other states that their CHL holders are safe, then reciprocity works, just like with drivers licenses.
Training and proficiency requirements are baloney.
Now before I get a lot of replies about God given rights and the 2nd Amendment, let me say that I and the law agree that anyone can drive, or carry concealed, ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY, without a license. But once you set out amongst the public, you need to show that you are safe, knowledgeable and mature enough to carry your gun, or drive your car.
My view on God given rights is that someone doesn't lose their god-given right to self defense because they happen to step off the boundaries of their property.
After years of carrying, competing and training with firearms, I'm as sick of unsafe, immature and ignorant folks carrying firearms as I am of crappy drivers.
Nobody likes morons who improperly handle firearms...but you know what? CCW holders in general seem to do a pretty good job of not doing anything to stupid with their guns. Yes, there are some incidents folks can point to of "that guy" with a CCW license...but I can point to probably an equal or greater number of "that guy" incidents among law enforcement and military personnel.
It's a fact of life that people will occasionally do dumb shit with firearms no matter how many hours of training they have or what they shot on the last Q course.
Of far greater concern is the propensity of governments to use any and all means at their disposal...including bureaucratic regulation and process...to keep decent people from having ready access to a useful means of self defense. A woman who just had the living shit beaten out of her by her boyfriend and who is in fear for her life shouldn't have to sit through a waiting period to get a gun or have to spend the kind of money I've spent on training for the grand privilege of waiting for the king's approval just to be able to defend herself because somebody gets the yuk face over the thought of "just anyone" being able to actually carry an effective means of self defense.
That's. Bogus.
All the Bubba-in-Walmart stories a body can recite do not change that basic reality.
The federal flight deck officer's program is a perfect example. It's been run by an organization that has resisted it at any and all turns, making it difficult for anybody to meet the regs. So we can shoot down a plane taken over by terrorists with a clear conscience, but God forbid that the pilot has a handgun in the cockpit! SOMEBODY MIGHT GET HURT!!!!
Histrionic predictions of doom and gloom have accompanied every attempt to liberalize carry laws and have never come true. Contrary to the predictions of the hysterical ninnies, there aren't gunfights breaking out over fender benders, small children aren't being gunned down in Wal-Mart because two CCW holders are exchanging gunfire over the last box of ho-hos...no blood running in the streets. In fact, it's been rather serene and the people who end up being shot by CCW holders generally tend to be people who deserve a bullet.
The bottom line is this:
NM getting pissy about the Utah training requirements will do precisely ZERO to improve the safety or competency of people carrying guns in NM. Upping the training requirement will do absolutely NOTHING to guarantee that people will be safer or more competent in handling firearms. Those of us who have real training with a firearm know better than to believe this action will have any positive impact.
It will, however, complicate life for people who are just trying to defend themselves on a daily basis....and as such it's unacceptable.
The more discretion left to government bureaucrats surrounding concealed carry, the more opportunity there will be for them to use that discretion to deny people what is a basic and fundamental right. That's why shall-issue laws had to be passed in the first place, because governments took the attitude that you had better give them a damn good reason to want to have a gun....either that or be politically connected...or if you are in New York, be a cokehead celebrity DJ. This is another splendid example of why training requirements are baloney and why giving government any discretion in regulating concealed carry is a bad idea.
thinking more about this, I am becoming more suspicious of the idea that DPS is doing this to make money for anyone. and I say this knowing the state, and quiet a few people in state government. I have two lines of logic here.
1) It's New Mexico, and quite frankly, anyone that's creative enough to come up with this as a money maker is probably not in state government. There are many things I love about NM. but I've never known them to be this pro-active or creative at the state level.
2) It's DPS. Every time someone wants to get a promotion they have to show they're Making A Difference. Someone's probably looking to get a promotion, or keep a promotion so they started the review process. Sometimes they need a hobby in Santa Fe, and re-arranging standing policy happens.
whether or not NM has higher standards than UT, or UT isn't a good program, or what ever, I don't know. but this smells more like a busy body than an old boys favor. Typically graft and corruption in Santa Fe is no where near this sophisticated.
Finally, a thread that I can contribute to...
I took my ccw class in Feb. and it will be longer than 6 mos. before I will receive my permit.
Hell you've got to wait 6 months for a permit! That is ridiculous.
I took a course in Albuquerque in December 2009, had my paperwork filled out and notorized just after the new year, and turned in my paperwork at the DPS office on January 14th. The woman at the front counter quoted me "90 to 120 days" until I would receive my permit in the mail, and by all accounts from the local gun store jocks, this woman knows her shit... Color me surprised when I found a letter from DPS in my mailbox on February 6th with my permit inside. Probably just luck on my part, but most folks seem to be waiting around 60 days.
Also you still cannot carry into your local stop and rob due to the fact they sell alcohol. Correct?
Concealed carry is allowed anywhere where alcohol is sold for off-site consumption... So no bars, no restaurants, no diners, et cetera, as those locations sell alcohol for on-site consumption. As it was noted above by another poster above, we'll have restaurant carry as of July 1st, but I think SB40 only covers restaurants that serve beer and wine and garner at least 60% of their revenue from food sales, so places like Applebee's and Chili's are still off-limits because they sell liquor.
:rolleyes: ... Babysteps, I guess.
The more demanding training requirement? I believe it's 15 rounds at 7 or 10 yards, fired with the biggest caliber you intend to carry (i.e., qualify with a .45 automatic, or a .45 Auto Rim or Single Action Army in revolvers and you can carry anything with a smaller bore diameter).
Yup, I live here in Albuquerque. Its easy to say the least.
They must have upped the requirement at some point to 25 total rounds fired, but otherwise spot-on to what I did in December: 15 rounds at 3-yards, 10 rounds at 7-yards. After some digging, it's outlined in 10.8.2.15 Section B (http://www.dps.nm.org/lawEnforcement/ccw/docs/10.8.2NMAC_17Nov05.pdf), so maybe it's a late 2005 revision? The target is 12" wide by 18" tall and each round landed within the target is worth four points. A score of 72% (18 rounds) must be achieved to meet the qualifications. I've heard it referred to as the "Stevie Wonder" test... Can't imagine why, though.
But once you set out amongst the public, you need to show that you are safe, knowledgeable and mature enough to carry your gun, or drive your car.
I think that this would be a good compromise for something like national CCW reciprocity... Realistically, we'd need the prissy states like California and New York to be on board, so reasonable concessions would probably have to be made to their support, since most states aren't ready to remove permitting entirely. I don't think something like a $35 fee and 30-day background check are too unreasonable, but that's my subjective opinion.
No intention of dragging this thread off-track, so perhaps that's best discussed in the other thread.
The 2 don't work very well as a comparison.
Why not? Both activities are legal without permits on private property, both are regulated by the state as to age limits, training proficiency, both require users to be responsible, judicious and skilled to be safe.
Reading books, putting on make up, texting, stuffing a burger down your throat etc. really shows how well that needing a drivers license has worked out. Look at Vermont, Alaska and soon to be Arizona and show me proof that training requirements help anything.
Vermont and Alaska, again.
Sorry, I thought that this thread was about state to state reciprocity. Lets look at what other states honor Vermont, Alaska and Arizona non-permit CHL carry.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/
What other states honor Vermont? Not a single one.
What other states honor Alaska without the Alaskan CHL that requires testing? Not a one. Alaska specifically provides a State CHL to folks wanting one for reciprocity with other states.
What other states will honor AZ's permitless concealed carry? It's too soon to know but I suspect the same number as for Vermont and Alaska.
If you live in a state that requires little or no testing for CHL, good for you. Carry and defend yourself to your heart's content. But don't get butthurt when other states don't give CHL reciprocity to your state or a third state with lower proficiency standards.
Quick replies in red... hungry and it's lunch time.
Quick question, do you teach CC courses? Do you have a vested monetary interest in someone obtaining a permit?
I have no vested monetary interest in folks getting CHL permits. I don't teach the Texas State CHL class.
Gringop
Where did the "6 months" come from? My last NM renewal came through in 6 or 7 weeks. NM's CCW law is fairly new and slowly improving, and considerably better than no CCW about 6+ years ago.
Legal carry in restaurants, etc., where beer and wine is served (but not hard liquor) starts July 1.
steveaikens
04-30-10, 08:43
I remember a few years ago when they were trying to get the CCW laws passed in NM, I got into a debate with a man by the name of Steve Akin from down Carlsbad way. Steven was heavily involved in the push to get CCW through he legislature and on to the Gov's desk.
My position at the time was that the bill as proposed, No carry where they *sold* booze (read: grocery store), qualifying with every gun you planned to carry; was very close to no CCW at all. Steve made a point to say that it was a foot in the door and his strategy was incrimentalism. Get it on the books and then change the law.
I have to give it to Steve, they have done a lot with this strategy, and it's still working. they're getting restaurant carry in July. But the point is, this stuff changes all the time. Yes we have to keep up on it, but I think they're making more positive progress than not. and I'm not just saying that cause I lost a bet with Steve. But I'd bet he's back there trying to get DPS to change it again.
NM continues to recognize the same states it did before Friday, 4/23, except UT. Reciprocity is being reviewed with other states and may actually improve. At this time, other than TX, NM does not have a reciprocal agreement with any other state but is in the process of converting states currently honored, to agreements.
For the record, there is significant rhetoric on numerous forums claiming this is about the money, about NM instructors whining about losing business to UT instructors and all kinds of crap. Crap is exactly what that is. It's not about money. The DPS CCU spends $81 per original license and $67 per renewal for the clearances and other associated fees to print and mail the licenses - hardly a moneymaker. Comments that NM wants to "sell non-resident permits" are also crap. NM does not offer non-resident permits now, and it is HIGHLY unlikely that NM ever will. I have never heard one word from any NM instructor that UT certified instructors were undercutting them.
This is about the NM Statute. If a state does not meet the requirements of our Statute, it does not qualify for honors. Utah does not now, nor have they ever had a handgun proficiency/competence requirement in their training. Some have claimed that their instructor required them to shoot a live fire exercise - good for them, they did what they should have. However it is not a requirement in the UT Statutes.
I am the person that compiled the original list of states for DPS, that met our Statute of "substantially similar" in the requirement for reciprocity. Utah was NEVER on that list - it was added to the list by someone at DPS IN ERROR. DPS has corrected that error. DPS has requested an up-to-date list. That list has been compiled and they now have it - I have re-verified that data. It includes recent changes to other states Statutes [NE and KS] that now qualify them for honors/reciprocity with NM. Whether DPS secures agreements with those states is up to DPS and that state, but they do have the data and the authority to make those agreements, they are re-visiting those honors/agreements.
The bottom line here is pretty simple. The statute is crystal clear in it's requirements. Meet them, you're on the list - don't meet them, you're off the list.
Lastly, firearms laws are very difficult to pass in NM. Changes are slowly being made, one small step at a time. four, you are correct that I told you some time back that incrementalism works here. The latest change - SB40, the alcohol bill allowing concealed carry licensees to now carry in 640 restaurants that sell beer and wine - is a perfect example of that. Go here (http://www.nm-ccw.com/Beer&Wine.html) to find out how to know where you will be able to carry after July 1. We were able to convince Gov. Richardson to send a message to the Senate to make SB 40 germane to the short - fiscal only - session in 2010. We got that bill passed and signed into law through significant negotiation, which forced me to kill another bill I was pushing that also improved our Statute. It's a slow, careful balancing act folks - but incrementalism works.
I hope this helps you all to better understand why NM DPS took the action they did - and puts the crap to rest.
Shootest - the *6 mos* comes from the worst case scenerio when clearences are slow to be returned to the CCU for original licenses, a new clerk not having correct information regarding renewals, and due to backlogs at the FBI or other unforseen problems that come up with original licenses. Four to six weeks is the real world average. However, some have taken longer to process.
Steve Aikens
Founder, www.handgunlaw.us
Clovis, NM
baffle Stack
04-30-10, 21:07
Mine took about a month.
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