View Full Version : The S&W M&P problem thread
Littlelebowski
04-28-10, 11:44
After hearing reports of extraction and failure to reset issues, I am opening a thread for rational discussion from experience on the S&W M&P. Focus is on known widespread or repeatable problems.
Please speak from experience and check all emotions at the door.
I have a mailing label at the house to send back my wife's M&PJG for a slide release that requires far too much effort to use and my PT.com M&P for no less than 7 failures to reset the striker in the last 1k rounds. Also the tritium insert in the front sight of the PT.com gun is now gone. Sending them out next week.
After hearing reports of extraction and failure to reset issues, I am opening a thread for rational discussion from experience on the S&W M&P. Focus is on known widespread or repeatable problems.
Please speak from experience and check all emotions at the door.
*Notification: we are a S&W LE Dealer, fan of the M&P and certified factory amorer.*
Failure to Extract (9mm)
M&P's in 9mm have issues with shallow rimmed 9mm casings (Winchester White Box) and has been an issue since the early days of the M&P. About a year ago, S&W changed the extractor on them to resolve this issue. The way you can tell if you have an old extractor or not is by the roll pin holding the extractor in. The hollow roll pin tells you that you have the old extractor. A solid roll pin means that you have a new extractor.
Why haven't we heard more about this issue? Several reasons for this. First, most people don't shoot enough to find it or don't shoot WWB ammo. Second, extractors can vary in spec. So some will be worse than others. Third, the tightness of the chamber plays a roll in this as well.
Personally, I own an early M&P with the "bad" extractor. I have never had any issues with any types of ammo. So this problem is hard to nail down as it shows itself randomly.
Failure to reset (trigger)
This problem can occur when using the S&W performance center sear or/can happen as well with the APEX sear (only one case reported so far to APEX). Two possible reasons for it happen. The dog ear on the trigger bar is not open enough (reset too far to the rear) or the trigger bar is not angled enough to properly trip the sear.
Why haven't you heard about this more issue? Very few people run a PC or APEX sear. Every trigger bar is different (to include the angle in which it interfaces with the sear and the opening of the dog ear). It is a vary sporadic thing and most M&P users will never encounter this issue.
I am running an APEX sear in my gun and have no reset issues.
The above description of the problems and fixes are to the best of my knowledge.
C4
I have a mailing label at the house to send back my wife's M&PJG for a slide release that requires far too much effort to use and my PT.com M&P for no less than 7 failures to reset the striker in the last 1k rounds. Also the tritium insert in the front sight of the PT.com gun is now gone. Sending them out next week.
The tritium issue has nothing to do with S&W. Trijicon is the problem child with that one.
C4
I had failure to extract issues with a new extractor and 9mm Winchester NATO ammo. It was only shot during the first 400 rounds of the gun's life, and hasn't reappeared in the 2500 rounds since.
Since we are talking about issues with the M&P, there is another one. It is called auto forwarding and S&W is aware of it (and has lost contracts because of it).
Some (this would include me) have no issues with auto forwarding. All M&P's do it, but how hard you have to insert the mag to get it to happen will vary from gun to gun.
We worked up a new slide catch for the M&P and gave it to S&W at Shot Show. It made it much harder for the gun to auto forward, but was still easy to release (hard thing to do). They are currently T&Eing it.
For those that don't know, most all handguns can be made to auto forward. Some are just harder to do than others.
C4
javentre just sent me a pic of a scratched up breech face. S&W is like any other manufacturer and puts out bad ones. Make them pay for it! Call them up request a return authorization number and ask them to issue a call slip so you don't have to pay for shipping.
C4
About a year ago, S&W changed the extractor on them to resolve this issue. The way you can tell if you have an old extractor or not is by the roll pin holding the extractor in. The hollow roll pin tells you that you have the old extractor. A solid roll pin means that you have a new extractor.
Isn't it the other way around? I thought early guns had a solid pin that S&W replaced on the line, as the solid pins got mushroomed by ham-fisted armorers. I seem to recall a conversation about this subject at my armorers class, but that was a few years ago.
Perhaps the roll pin was the replacement for the early solid pins, now they've gone back to solid pins as the newest thing?
For me the most vexing issue for the M&P has been striker breakage. When I get home, I'll post a pic of my first gen striker that went kablammo after many thousands of dry fires (and a few thousand live fires as well). I ASSume it's a first gen striker, because I ASSume I have a first gen gun. If someone has pics of all of the generations of strikers (I saw Gen 5 on grtactical.com today!) I'd love to see them. Especially if anyone knows if/how S&W has changed the manufacturing process for that particular part. AFAIK, it started out as a MIM component without any sort of coating, but a black finish. The newest pics I've seen are either coated with a glossier finish or are made of a different material.
The other big issue I have with box-stock M&Ps is the weird bump I get when dry firing them. It takes significant effort with a new gun to hold the front sight steady. Admittedly my sample size is small (4 guns) but every one, including a NIB Pro, has a bump when the striker lets go. Not being the most savvy person in the world, I want to put it on overtravel, but I'm not 100% sure that's what's doing it. This has sorted itself out on my most used gun, so I'm fairly certain it's a gun thing and not a me thing.
I have a regular M&P9 purchased in January 2009. I have a solid pin, so according to Grant's post, I have the new extractor. Still have problems with WWB, which I now avoid or save for other guns. No other problems to report.
Isn't it the other way around? I thought early guns had a solid pin that S&W replaced on the line, as the solid pins got mushroomed by ham-fisted armorers. I seem to recall a conversation about this subject at my armorers class, but that was a few years ago.
No. I have current production M&P's (9mm and 40) and they have a solid pin. Current 45 M&P's have a coil pin.
Perhaps the roll pin was the replacement for the early solid pins, now they've gone back to solid pins as the newest thing?
S&W says that they will eventually put coil roll pins in everything. For right now though, they are not.
For me the most vexing issue for the M&P has been striker breakage. When I get home, I'll post a pic of my first gen striker that went kablammo after many thousands of dry fires (and a few thousand live fires as well). I ASSume it's a first gen striker, because I ASSume I have a first gen gun. If someone has pics of all of the generations of strikers (I saw Gen 5 on grtactical.com today!) I'd love to see them. Especially if anyone knows if/how S&W has changed the manufacturing process for that particular part. AFAIK, it started out as a MIM component without any sort of coating, but a black finish. The newest pics I've seen are either coated with a glossier finish or are made of a different material.
Look at you scopin out my website for M&P parts! :D Just for that, I am going post a pic of the new GEN 5 strikers. S&W says that these are good for 70,000 dry fires!
The other big issue I have with box-stock M&Ps is the weird bump I get when dry firing them. It takes significant effort with a new gun to hold the front sight steady. Admittedly my sample size is small (4 guns) but every one, including a NIB Pro, has a bump when the striker lets go. Not being the most savvy person in the world, I want to put it on overtravel, but I'm not 100% sure that's what's doing it. This has sorted itself out on my most used gun, so I'm fairly certain it's a gun thing and not a me thing.
This is due to the trigger setup. Install an APEX sear and it is gone.
C4
GEN 5 Striker
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/GEN5_Striker.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/GEN5_Striker1.jpg
After reading subzero's post, my M&P9 is the same.
For the longest time, I thought I was physically unable to execute a perfect trigger press because the front sight often moved. Upon further examination, my slide shifts a bit sideways on the frame when the trigger is pulled. My M&P45 does the same thing.
I have a regular M&P9 purchased in January 2009. I have a solid pin, so according to Grant's post, I have the new extractor. Still have problems with WWB, which I now avoid or save for other guns. No other problems to report.
Correct. The other variable is the chamber. Polish it and see if you still have an issue.
If that does not help, then you most likely have a bad extractor. So I would either send it back to S&W or just buy the new APEX extractor.
C4
No. I have current production M&P's (9mm and 40) and they have a solid pin. Current 45 M&P's have a coil pin.
S&W says that they will eventually put coil roll pins in everything. For right now though, they are not.
Then I'm fuzzy on this issue. My 2006/2007 (Rev N, MPF-prefix) M&P 9 FS has a solid pin. If the hollow coil pin / roll pin is supposed to denote something, what is it, exactly? My gun runs fine (2 failures to extract, both with the same lot of AA&A reloaded FMJ out of 3400+ rounds, mostly WWB). However, the 3 Pros I've seen at local matches have all exhibited extraction issues. All guns (spanning from 2006/2007 to present) have the solid pin.
The Pros seem to be more problematic than the standard guns. I know the extraction problems are predominately in the 9mm guns, and there are no .40 Pros yet (so that can skew the stats). Has anyone else witnessed this?
(Additionally, I've been meaning to pick up a new striker. You've got the latest revision strikers on your website, but not the complete striker assemblies?)
I have a mailing label at the house to send back my wife's M&PJG for a slide release that requires far too much effort to use and my PT.com M&P for no less than 7 failures to reset the striker in the last 1k rounds. Also the tritium insert in the front sight of the PT.com gun is now gone. Sending them out next week.
Just out of curiosity, is the slide stop spring copper (coat-hanger) colored, or is it silver with blue paint?
Jay Cunningham
04-28-10, 15:34
We experienced two failures-to-reset today with our PTC gun.
One FTE with a 9mm Pro. It has the solid pin. The FTE was with WWB ammo.
Wayne Dobbs
04-28-10, 16:31
My gripe with the M&P I own is terrible accuracy. The gun has S/N prefix "MEP" and it's terrible off the bench. I became suspicious of it when I noted that during some LAV type bullseye work that it wasn't shooting to my shot "call" at 10 and 15 yards.
I tested it off the bench to eliminate as many variables as possible and Eureka!...I have an M&P that shoots consistent 8 - 10" groups with several handloads and three factory loads at 25 yards. All of those loads group within 2.5 - 3" in my Glock 17s and 19s.
Any thoughts on this issue?
Then I'm fuzzy on this issue. My 2006/2007 (Rev N, MPF-prefix) M&P 9 FS has a solid pin. If the hollow coil pin / roll pin is supposed to denote something, what is it, exactly? My gun runs fine (2 failures to extract, both with the same lot of AA&A reloaded FMJ out of 3400+ rounds, mostly WWB). However, the 3 Pros I've seen at local matches have all exhibited extraction issues. All guns (spanning from 2006/2007 to present) have the solid pin.
Good question. I called my LE Rep and asked him about the pins being used. It appears that S&W mights have used different pins throughout 2006-2008 depending on what they had available.
So if your gun runs (which it sounds like it does), don't worry about it.
The pro's you watched, are running the old extractor's and that is the problem. Remember that every gun is different. Some will have issues with the WWB ammo and others will not.
The Pros seem to be more problematic than the standard guns. I know the extraction problems are predominately in the 9mm guns, and there are no .40 Pros yet (so that can skew the stats). Has anyone else witnessed this?
The Pro models just means that they have different sights and sear. Nothing to do with the extractor.
(Additionally, I've been meaning to pick up a new striker. You've got the latest revision strikers on your website, but not the complete striker assemblies?)
We just sold out of the strikers, but have more coming and have ordered complete assemblies.
C4
My gripe with the M&P I own is terrible accuracy. The gun has S/N prefix "MEP" and it's terrible off the bench. I became suspicious of it when I noted that during some LAV type bullseye work that it wasn't shooting to my shot "call" at 10 and 15 yards.
I tested it off the bench to eliminate as many variables as possible and Eureka!...I have an M&P that shoots consistent 8 - 10" groups with several handloads and three factory loads at 25 yards. All of those loads group within 2.5 - 3" in my Glock 17s and 19s.
Any thoughts on this issue?
Is it a 45? A local customer had a bad barrel (horrible groups) with his 45. Sent it back and got a new barrel.
Remembe that M&P 9mm barrels are setup for + P ammo and typically shoot the best (accuracy wise) with hotter ammo.
I don't shoot + ammo so I switched out to a Storm Lake barrel which is geared more towards standard loads.
C4
We experienced two failures-to-reset today with our PTC gun.
This doesn't suprise me. The trigger bar needs a small amount of tweaking. If the owner is going to be at the shoot this weekend, I would like to see the gun.
C4
Wayne I read you anywhere I spot that handle. And I think I've seen you trying to crack this nut on Enos's MakuMozo place. Me too. My M&P Pro 9 is a glorious shooter and I shoot ever speed drill better than probably any gun I've handled except maybe a P7. And I've been shooting Glock 9's mostly for close to 15 years.
But it will not group slowfire of a rest for shit. I've tried a half dozen loads and haven't seen anything under 4" for 5 shots. Now I'm not loosing too much sleep over it cause for the "action" format of my gun games, it is delivering better hits than anything else but still. I'm sorta OCD about accurate pistols. I am most hopeful about the rough bores and that this can lap itself out in enough rounds.
As posted in my 2K round test report on this board, mine sailed through until the very end when I had two failure to resets at or about 2K rounds.
Cycled fine, went to fire again and the trigger was just swinging loose. Racked a new round and off it went. Both times.
Theories range from the insights attributed to G4 above about sears to gunk build up in the striker channel - which I hope to hell is my story. I can live with cleaning it every 1K rounds.
Joe
I have 2 full size M&P .45s. I have had issues with one.
MPRXXXX
- Date Code April 2007
- Approximately 600 rounds of various factory 230 grain FMJ without incident.
- Sent the pistol to S&W for the M&P package (primarily for the PC sear) and Massachusetts trigger spring in order to improve trigger pull and reset.
- Received gun back. Fired 100 rounds of factory 230 grain FMJ. 17 times the trigger failed to reset. If I press checked the gun, the trigger would reset, and I could continue to fire.
- Sent the gun back to S&W. They replaced the striker and fired 60 rounds without incident.
- Received gun back. Fired 50 rounds of factory 230 grain FMJ. 2 times the trigger failed to reset. Press checked the gun, trigger reset, and I fired the cartridge.
- Sent the gun back to S&W. They replaced all fire control components. Two individuals fired a total of 100 rounds through the gun without incident.
- Received gun back. First outing I fired 100 rounds of 230 grain factory ammo without incident. Second outing I fired 200 rounds of 230 grain factory without incident.
After reading subzero's post, my M&P9 is the same.
For the longest time, I thought I was physically unable to execute a perfect trigger press because the front sight often moved. Upon further examination, my slide shifts a bit sideways on the frame when the trigger is pulled. My M&P45 does the same thing.
That is so annoying. I've tinkered with mine for hours trying to figure out how to address this without putting in some WECSOG overtravel stop or some such BS. I can adjust the initial contact point to reduce creep, I can reduce or polish surfaces to lessen trigger weight, but I can't figure out how to make this go away.
BTW, both M&Ps I have in the house right now (MPF and MPJ) have solid pins. They are older guns. So Grant, if old guns have solid pins, and the new guns you have in your shop have solid pins, when do the one year old guns with roll pins (and new extractors) actually hit the shelves? I'm confused.
ETA: I missed the post where Grant talked to the factory rep. I guess it's about as clear as mud, eh?
This is the first striker I broke along with another 1st gen I pulled from a gun with less than 200 rds through it (I replaced it with one with a polished face). Why S&W thought the neck down behind the fat part was a good thing, I don't know.
http://i44.tinypic.com/34srpz7.jpg
I have experienced failures to extract with my M&P9 which I bought factory new in the Spring of 2009. I did not have that many, but enough to make me concerned. It typically happened around once every 200-400 rounds. It happened with several different brands of ammo, including Barnual Brass cased, Winchester +P+ 127 grain JHP, Winchester Whitebox and American Eagle.
What would typically happen is the case would remain almost completely in the chamber with only the rim sticking out. I had heard this was because S&W used the same extractor for the 9mm as they did for the 40. I had the extractor replaced with the new Apex, and as of today I have about 2200 rounds through the gun with the new Apex extractor without a single recurance of this issue.
It seems to vary from gun to gun in terms of existance and severity.
The factory triggers seem to vary with these guns. The first time I shot an M&P45 it had a horrible factory trigger so that the groups I shot with it side by side my HK USP40 (the USP shot single action) looked like the before and after from someone who had taken a Vickers course. Then I tried one with a Bowie trigger job and it was much better--so I ultimately wound up buying one.
Similar story with the M&P9. I tried a friends with the factory trigger and it was horrible. When shooting plates I did much better with his Colt series 80 1911, even thought the Colt had tiny factory sights while the S&W M&P9's sights were the standard high profile fare. After seeing the Bowie trigger job on the .45 I picked one up in 9mm.
Two weekends ago I fired a friend's M&P40. This gun had an amazing trigger right from the factory to the point that if I owned one I would not be concerned with getting a trigger job.
After hearing of people's experiences with breaking strikers during dry fire, I only dry fire my M&Ps with a snapcap present.
Good question. I called my LE Rep and asked him about the pins being used. It appears that S&W mights have used different pins throughout 2006-2008 depending on what they had available.
I see. I had up until now assumed that solid pin indicated an old extractor and a hollow pin indicated a newer extractor. This clears things up a bit.
The Pro models just means that they have different sights and sear. Nothing to do with the extractor.
You're right. I had forgotten that standard length Pros were now available. The problem guns were all 5" models. The 5" 9mms (not necessarily Pros) were what I had noticed (and heard) to be more problematic than the standard length guns. I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this.
We just sold out of the strikers, but have more coming and have ordered complete assemblies.
C4
Good to know. Plan to order a spare.
We have experienced numerous broken strikers with 9mm M&P's. None were the new "Gen 5", but each was the "newest" version at the time and were advertised as "Safe for Dry Fire" by S&W reps. Sadly none could actually do it and all broke with catastrophic results. Oddly enough the early "Gen1" version held up the longest. Hence our reservations on any claims the "Gen5" is the answer until it holds up over time and a substantial number of guns.
My experience
M&P .45 Full size
purchased shortly after they became available
MPRXXXX
Multiple FTE's in the first 300 rounds, factory loads
Sent back to S&W where they polished the ramp and replaced the extractor. This all happened years ago so its difficult to recall all of the details. And since S&W solved the problem I've put it out of my mind.
1.5K rounds later and its been flawless, eats everything I put in it
It also auto forwards. So your slide catch sparks my curiosity Grant.
I see. I had up until now assumed that solid pin indicated an old extractor and a hollow pin indicated a newer extractor. This clears things up a bit.
You're right. I had forgotten that standard length Pros were now available. The problem guns were all 5" models. The 5" 9mms (not necessarily Pros) were what I had noticed (and heard) to be more problematic than the standard length guns. I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this.
Good to know. Plan to order a spare.
I have the new Pro standard length 9mm. Aghhhh!!!!! That's what I have to say about that. I've replaced everything with the awesome Apex parts and I'm still having issues. Thank god Randy is working with me on this issue. I've had ejections/extraction problems from day one with ALL ammo brands and different grains.
If I had to do it over again with my M&Ps (the Pro 9mm and a mid-size .45 sent in to get the Performance Package). I would skip the PC stuff and go directly the Apex route with standard guns. Apex works much better in my humble opinion.
I also had horrible FTE with the .45 before it went to Smith for the PC package. Afterwards it worked but I had trouble with WWB (which of course is my agency's choice of practice rounds). It went away after about 1000 rds. Smith polished the shit out of the chamber so I suspect that helped.
I love the guns but I wouldn't recommend them to the average shooter/cop out of the box if you didn't know what you were doing.
Littlelebowski
04-28-10, 17:38
So, does S&W send out the new strikers for free if you have problems?
Got a phone call and hit the submit reply button before I finished posting.
I also had a S&W 9mm compact when they first came out. It had failures to feed with certain ammo hollowpoints, notably the Ranger Talon 147 grain JHP. One trip to the S&W factory got it feeding better but it still had problems. I wound up selling the gun rather than playing with it.
I am in the middle of loose rear sight issues on a compact and full size. The problem is with both the OEM sights as well Warren 2 dot.
Not sure if it's appropriate to link from this collected thread to my single thread, but all the details can be seen here
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=51090
From the thread above it looks like a couple of others have had the same issue.
John_Wayne777
04-28-10, 18:10
When I broke the striker on my oldest M&P S&W sent out a replacement that day. I had it in less than a week after the call. Robb beat S&W with an even faster replacement.
I've experienced most of the issues related in this thread firsthand. The only one I haven't encountered is the accuracy issue mentioned. So far I've found that my M&P's (all 7 of them that I own/have owned) are more accurate than I am. Granted I suck, but still...I don't think there is a problem with any of them off a rest.
I still carry M&P's. :p
The issues are manageable, in my view. I've had two FTX on two M&P's with a combined round count of XX,XXX, both with Winchester White Box. Not ideal, but not the end of the world either. All the other stuff from aluminum Blazer to Gold Dot ran just fine.
The reset issues seem to be confined primarily to guns with the performance center sears.
I've encountered the problems...but I've encountered a bunch of problems with a lot of other guns I own. I was on the phone with Templar yesterday and he said "Dude...I know you're like a Marine with bowling balls..." The old joke goes that if you lock a Marine in a room with two bowling balls for a few days, when you come back one will be broken and the other will be missing.
I'm...special. :D
They aren't as bulletproof as 9mm Glocks, but few machines on earth actually are.
... M&P 9mm barrels are setup for + P ammo and typically shoot the best (accuracy wise) with hotter ammo.... a Storm Lake barrel is geared more towards standard loads.Grant, what is different about the barrels that makes them more accurate with different ammo?
We have experienced numerous broken strikers with 9mm M&P's. None were the new "Gen 5", but each was the "newest" version at the time and were advertised as "Safe for Dry Fire" by S&W reps. Sadly none could actually do it and all broke with catastrophic results. Oddly enough the early "Gen1" version held up the longest. Hence our reservations on any claims the "Gen5" is the answer until it holds up over time and a substantial number of guns.
Up until these Gen5's came out I have never heard them say that they tested them to the extent that they have (70,000 dry fires).
While we are on the subject of dry firing, we all realize that dry firing is generally bad for all pistols made right??? This is why they invented snap caps.
At the last advanced pistol class with Hackathorn, he pointed out that excessive dry firing with Glocks can lead to issues. So no pistols are immune to it.
C4
I have the new Pro standard length 9mm. Aghhhh!!!!! That's what I have to say about that. I've replaced everything with the awesome Apex parts and I'm still having issues. Thank god Randy is working with me on this issue. I've had ejections/extraction problems from day one with ALL ammo brands and different grains.
If I had to do it over again with my M&Ps (the Pro 9mm and a mid-size .45 sent in to get the Performance Package). I would skip the PC stuff and go directly the Apex route with standard guns. Apex works much better in my humble opinion.
I also had horrible FTE with the .45 before it went to Smith for the PC package. Afterwards it worked but I had trouble with WWB (which of course is my agency's choice of practice rounds). It went away after about 1000 rds. Smith polished the shit out of the chamber so I suspect that helped.
I love the guns but I wouldn't recommend them to the average shooter/cop out of the box if you didn't know what you were doing.
I agree that the Apex items are nicer than the factory S&W parts.
I disagree with you about ease of operation. They are generally easy to shoot and maintain.
C4
So, does S&W send out the new strikers for free if you have problems?
They may, but are generally going to want to see the pistol.
C4
Alpha Sierra
04-28-10, 20:10
M&P9: zero issues in 1814 rounds. I love the slide drop when you slam the mag. Never a misfeed doing that.
M&P9c: zero issues in 810 rounds. Does not autofeed.
I am in the middle of loose rear sight issues on a compact and full size. The problem is with both the OEM sights as well Warren 2 dot.
Not sure if it's appropriate to link from this collected thread to my single thread, but all the details can be seen here
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=51090
From the thread above it looks like a couple of others have had the same issue.
The majority of factory sights we remove are easy to do. Warren Tactical sights tend to be oversized and hard to get in.
C4
Grant, what is different about the barrels that makes them more accurate with different ammo?
I wish that I knew more about it, but I don't.
C4
Oops, I forgot about the magazine problems I encountered with the M&P 9mm with the follower sticking in one case and rounds getting lodged next to each other in another. I had each of these occurin about 4000 rounds with two different magazines. I addressed the issue by replacing the stock mag springs with ISMI extra power springs and updated the followers to some newer followers marked with the number 9 on them.
Here is a link to the whole thread on the topic:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=51142&highlight=magazine
Oops, I forgot about the magazine problems I encountered with the M&P 9mm with the follower sticking in one case and rounds getting lodged next to each other in another. I had each of these occurin about 4000 rounds with two different magazines. I addressed the issue by replacing the stock mag springs with ISMI extra power springs and updated the followers to some newer followers marked with the number 9 on them.
Here is a link to the whole thread on the topic:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=51142&highlight=magazine
Just as an FYI, per S&W, mag springs should be changed out every 3,000rds.
C4
crowkiller
04-28-10, 20:36
Does the M&P 45s seem to have less issues or are they across the board? Thanks
I have broken a couple of mag base plates on my MP45 mags. Definitely not as durable as Glock mags.
Mag plates, however, are cheap and easy to replace. I just bought a bunch from Speed Shooter Specialties for $2 a piece.
Does the M&P 45s seem to have less issues or are they across the board? Thanks
The M&P's in 45 and 40 are probably the most reliable. Then again, I shoot a 9mm and don't have any issues that others have.
C4
Just as an FYI, per S&W, mag springs should be changed out every 3,000rds.
Understood, but these issues happened before I reached the 4000 round mark, and those 4000 rounds fired were distributed through about 10 magazines.
Understood, but these issues happened before I reached the 4000 round mark, and those 4000 rounds fired were distributed through about 10 magazines.
Roger that. Mag springs also wear out just sitting the in the mag (especially if they are kept loaded). So they have round count AND time span.
C4
Jay Cunningham
04-28-10, 21:10
It also failed to go fully into battery several times with a full mag in the first 500-600 rounds. The trigger was terrible.
I had the same issues with my M&P45. Sometimes the magazines would not drop free either, which I thought was odd.
Jay Cunningham
04-28-10, 21:12
While we are on the subject of dry firing, we all realize that dry firing is generally bad for all pistols made right??? This is why they invented snap caps.
G-Locks are designed to be dry fired - you can't field strip one unless you dry fire it.
Can anyone confirm the appx date the Revision 5 strikers were phased in?
Are they identified by the silver color?
The majority of factory sights we remove are easy to do. Warren Tactical sights tend to be oversized and hard to get in.
C4
This is what I was expecting, however on both my guns the Warren's are so loose they will slide freely through the notch. The OEM rear on the compact are just as loose, and the OEM rear on the full size came loose after a couple hundred rounds. These are the second Warren rears I have tried on these guns as I returned the first thinking I had gotten the wrong ones.
I had the same issues with my M&P45. Sometimes the magazines would drop free either, which I thought was odd.
I assume you meant "would not" drop free. I had one mag that was not dropping free either. I honestly was disappointed with this gun intitially.
The M&P 45 is truly a gun that sweetens up the more you shoot it. All mags drop free now. At this point, all the glitches seem to be worked out and everything runs perfect. I am in love with it.
This is what I was expecting, however on both my guns the Warren's are so loose they will slide freely through the notch. The OEM rear on the compact are just as loose, and the OEM rear on the full size came loose after a couple hundred rounds. These are the second Warren rears I have tried on these guns as I returned the first thinking I had gotten the wrong ones.
I have some Warrens that are on the large side. You should send me your slide and I will see if any of them are a tight fit.
C4
Jay Cunningham
04-28-10, 21:51
I assume you meant "would not" drop free.
Correct.
I sold mine.
G-Locks are designed to be dry fired - you can't field strip one unless you dry fire it.
Correct you are and is why they are the king of ND's! ;)
I won't go any farther as I don't want derail this from it's intended purpose.
C4
Jay Cunningham
04-28-10, 22:07
NDs or not, they are still designed to be dry fired. Buying snap-caps for a Glock is a waste of money.
But you're right - back to the M&P problems.
NDs or not, they are still designed to be dry fired. Buying snap-caps for a Glock is a waste of money.
But you're right - back to the M&P problems.
Incorrect. Dry firing Glocks can lead to firing pin issues (according to Ken).
JW777 was there when he said it and can add more to it than I can.
C4
Jay Cunningham
04-28-10, 22:29
I have never heard of a Glock breaking a striker due to dry-firing. Have you?
I heard Ken say something like that also in a class that I took from him. I am not sure if it was breaking the firing pin or the firing pin wear away that back of the striker face from hitting it tens of thousands of times without the resistance of a snap cap or primer on the other side. It was a few years ago, so I don't remember precisely.
I got the feeling that this was not a normal thing and only happened with an absurd number of dryfirings. Still, use a snapcap and it is not an issue.
Oops, I forgot about the magazine problems I encountered with the M&P 9mm with the follower sticking in one case and rounds getting lodged next to each other in another. I had each of these occurin about 4000 rounds with two different magazines. I addressed the issue by replacing the stock mag springs with ISMI extra power springs and updated the followers to some newer followers marked with the number 9 on them.
Here is a link to the whole thread on the topic:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=51142&highlight=magazine
I had this happen before. (In my case, it was a Sig P229 (post-ban) factory magazine.) The problem I experienced was due to manufacturing artifacts (flashing, I think it's called) on he sides of the follower.
The thread you like had a pic of the top if your follower, but not the sides. If you resolved the issue with just a stronger mag spring, you may want to (re)check the follower more closely.
While I usually don't like commenting on accuracy with handguns (the human element, especially with myself, is often the root), I must say that I'm not all that impressed with the accuracy on my M&P9 Full Size.
Groups out around the 15 yard mark and beyond are very inconsistent, and with every successive competition, range trip, etc. I'm becoming less convinced that it's me, especially when I'm testing it from a rest/supported.
This was not something that I experienced with my previous (now sold) Glock 22, and that's not a gun I ever said that I shot particularly well, at all. I have about three times the trigger time on this M&P than I did on my Glock, but the groups are not there for me for whatever reason. Groups with my 92FS or Springer 9mm are easily about half the size, even if I've just picked them up from a long hiatus (I'm trying to really become proficient with the M&P platform, so my other guns sit in the safe these days unless I'm doing comparisons and such).
Now, I don't expect it to be a target pistol. For it's intended purpose, it works superb and is my current "go-to-gun" for just about everything. However, I figured the accuracy issue was somewhat relevant to the discussion. It's something that I've experienced with various brands and with 115, 124, and 147 grain bullets, as well.
crazymoose
04-29-10, 04:21
I heard Ken say something like that also in a class that I took from him. I am not sure if it was breaking the firing pin or the firing pin wear away that back of the striker face from hitting it tens of thousands of times without the resistance of a snap cap or primer on the other side. It was a few years ago, so I don't remember precisely.
I got the feeling that this was not a normal thing and only happened with an absurd number of dryfirings. Still, use a snapcap and it is not an issue.
I've only ever seen one documented instance of this. The breach face had a circular section "punched out" fairly cleanly, presumably by the force of the striker shoulder slamming into the internal side of the breach face over the course of many, many cycles.
I've owned eight M&P's. The first one I bought in 2006 when they were $369. The newest one is a 2010 Pro 40.
On my 9mm compact the slide would lock back with one round left in the magazine. I heard they have changed to a stronger slide stop spring to correct that problem but I sold mine rather than mess with it.
Two of the pistols I bought in 2007 had horrible slide finishes. I sold one of those. I recently sent the 357 back. I'm not sure if they refinished it or replaced the slide. It did come back with the old sights and old striker.
I bought a 9mm FS in 2009. The white dot on the front sight lasted nine rounds before it blew out.
I bought a 9mm Pro in 2009. I never have had any trouble with this gun using my own ammo. I was at an IDPA match a couple of months ago and loaned my gun to a police officer for one stage. He used Fiochhi ammo in the gun. He had three failures to extract and two light primer strikes. I couldn't believe it.
At the same match one of my friends was also using a 9mm Pro. He dropped out of the match when his gun had an issue with failing to reset the sear.
I've never had an issue with broken strikers. I recently replaced all my black strikers with the silver strikers to be on the safe side though. My 12/2009 and 1/2010 guns came with silver strikers.
John_Wayne777
04-29-10, 07:40
I have never heard of a Glock breaking a striker due to dry-firing. Have you?
No...but I have seen Glocks with broken/cracked breech-faces. Granted it generally takes a LOT of dryfire to get a Glock that doesn't have some sort of manufacturing defect (like the DOE guns where Glock teniferred some pretty crappy quality steel to make the slides) to actually crack the breechface, but it can still happen.
Of all the handguns on the market, Glocks seem to tolerate dryfire the best. I dryfire my Glocks all the time.
...but I also dryfire my M&P's all the time. At first I was really nazi about using snapcaps, but since I've acquired some spare strikers and since I have multiple guns I no longer bother with snapcaps. (I'm getting as lazy as Dinger :D) I'm still running on the striker Robb gave me years ago in my main M&P and it's working just fine after a lot of rounds downrange and a lot of dryfire. I dryfire my 9C and my M&P .45 all the time with no snapcaps and they both are working on older generation black strikers with no problem.
Someone who dryfires for serious practice without decent snapcaps will eventually break just about every handgun out there. I've personally broken a number of different handguns with dryfire over the years. Snapcaps are cheap insurance for those who want to do serious dryfire practice with their guns while minimizing the chances of damage. If I had one carry gun and it was an M&P with the older strikers (and I didn't have replacements on hand) I would make darn sure to use AZooms all the time.
So far I've yet to see any credible evidence of an M&P striker going Tango Uniform under live fire.
For those wondering, that's essentially the basic gist of what Ken talked with us about too...only in Ken's usual style he was able to list the specific modifications done to different weapons to correct breakages from dryfire. The recess around the firing pin hole on the Beretta 92, for instance, is one of those modifications.
I heard Ken say something like that also in a class that I took from him. I am not sure if it was breaking the firing pin or the firing pin wear away that back of the striker face from hitting it tens of thousands of times without the resistance of a snap cap or primer on the other side. It was a few years ago, so I don't remember precisely.
I got the feeling that this was not a normal thing and only happened with an absurd number of dryfirings. Still, use a snapcap and it is not an issue.
Ken is correct here. I've seen it happen on a Glock 23 with a dude that I used to work with. He claimed to spend 10 minutes a day dry firing his weapon (he never did get any better by the way...). One day he brought the pistol in to me with a puzzled look on his face. I couldn't believe it even after I saw it...the breech face was punched forward from about the 7 o'clock position all the way around to about the 5 o'clock position. It was hanging by a proverbial thread.
I have never heard of a Glock breaking a striker due to dry-firing. Have you?
Ken never said breaking.
C4
Wayne Dobbs
04-29-10, 08:37
Grant,
I posted my accuracy issues yesterday, go away and come back to three more pages of posts!
My M&P is a 9mm and I've shot ammo from standard pressure to +P in it, all with dismal accuracy results. You said the barrels are "set up for +P". Please elaborate on what that means specifically if you would.
I don't mind if a service gun isn't a tackdriver, but when your shots can't be called reliably at very minimal midrange distances then there's something wrong.
Since we are talking about issues with the M&P, there is another one. It is called auto forwarding and S&W is aware of it (and has lost contracts because of it).
Some (this would include me) have no issues with auto forwarding. All M&P's do it, but how hard you have to insert the mag to get it to happen will vary from gun to gun.
We worked up a new slide catch for the M&P and gave it to S&W at Shot Show. It made it much harder for the gun to auto forward, but was still easy to release (hard thing to do). They are currently T&Eing it.
For those that don't know, most all handguns can be made to auto forward. Some are just harder to do than others.
C4
For a minute there I thought this was a problem and didnt know that it occured with most handguns. I hear that the angle that the mag is pushed in has the most to do with it, anyone know why?
I think it is the force of the insertion causing the slide to jump or it is catching on the slide catch.
Failure to reset (trigger)
This problem can occur when using the S&W performance center sear or/can happen as well with the APEX sear (only one case reported so far to APEX). Two possible reasons for it happen. The dog ear on the trigger bar is not open enough (reset too far to the rear) or the trigger bar is not angled enough to properly trip the sear.
Why haven't you heard about this more issue? Very few people run a PC or APEX sear. Every trigger bar is different (to include the angle in which it interfaces with the sear and the opening of the dog ear). It is a vary sporadic thing and most M&P users will never encounter this issue.
I am running an APEX sear in my gun and have no reset issues.
C4
I have a couple of further questions as it relates to the lack of trigger reset.
1. Has anybody experienced this with the stock sear?
2. Does anybody have a PC sear that did not exhibit reset issues early on but then developed them down the road, say after at least a couple thousand rounds or more?
Thanks,
Steve
I have a couple of further questions as it relates to the lack of trigger reset.
1. Has anybody experienced this with the stock sear?
2. Does anybody have a PC sear that did not exhibit reset issues early on but then developed them down the road, say after at least a couple thousand rounds or more?
Thanks,
Steve
1. Don't think so.
2. I think it happens (if at all) from day one.
C4
Grant,
I posted my accuracy issues yesterday, go away and come back to three more pages of posts!
My M&P is a 9mm and I've shot ammo from standard pressure to +P in it, all with dismal accuracy results. You said the barrels are "set up for +P". Please elaborate on what that means specifically if you would.
I don't mind if a service gun isn't a tackdriver, but when your shots can't be called reliably at very minimal midrange distances then there's something wrong.
According to my discussions with S&W, their guns are more accurate with higher pressure ammo.
That is about all I know. If you have a bad barrel (won't group), send it back to them for testing.
C4
I have a couple of further questions as it relates to the lack of trigger reset.
2. Does anybody have a PC sear that did not exhibit reset issues early on but then developed them down the road, say after at least a couple thousand rounds or more?
Thanks,
Steve
My two (Pro 9) incidents reported in the 2K test results here, occurred about 30 minutes apart between 1800 and 2100 rounds. Because of this, I'm hoping it was just crud build up and "tolerance stack" from that.
The other big issue I have with box-stock M&Ps is the weird bump I get when dry firing them. It takes significant effort with a new gun to hold the front sight steady. Admittedly my sample size is small (4 guns) but every one, including a NIB Pro, has a bump when the striker lets go. Not being the most savvy person in the world, I want to put it on overtravel, but I'm not 100% sure that's what's doing it. This has sorted itself out on my most used gun, so I'm fairly certain it's a gun thing and not a me thing.
+1 on that... makes for a nice low left push... I only get it on my MP45.. did a trigger job.. and its gone...
G34Shooter
04-29-10, 22:06
According to my discussions with S&W, their guns are more accurate with higher pressure ammo.
That is about all I know. If you have a bad barrel (won't group), send it back to them for testing.
C4
There may be some truth to this but I'm only going off my experience tonight as powder puff PMC did not shoot well for me while Lawmen did better and Ranger-T did much better.
This is only my second time ever shooting an M&P period but I hope I can consistently do this or better after some more practice and training.
This was with 124gr +P Ranger-T:
http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/57a19281.jpg
I have never heard of a Glock breaking a striker due to dry-firing. Have you?
Unfortunately I have. I personally broke the striker on a G17 and the breach face on a G34 (as described above) due to excessive dry-fire. Glock replaced my slide no questions asked.The 17 had a couple hundred thousand dry "fires" with no snap cap but after the slide on the 34 broke with far fewer...I started using a snap cap only to break the striker on the 17 a few weeks later. I'm sure it was a coincidence and due to excessive wear, but I have ditched the snap caps and instead just bump up to against the sear without actually breaking the shot for most dry-fire.
BMcDonald7
05-01-10, 01:59
The tritium issue has nothing to do with S&W. Trijicon is the problem child with that one.
C4
I just had the same problem. While shooting my M&P 9c at the range today I noticed the tritium insert on my front sight popped out. I looked around but it was lost. They are trijicon night sights that were on the gun when I bought it new from OMB Express a little over a month ago. Do I contact Trijicon or S&W since they were labeled Factory Night Sights when I bought it?
a couple hundred thousand dry "fires" with no snap cap
HOLY SMOKES! And live fire on top of that.
GLOCKMASTER
05-01-10, 07:59
I just had the same problem. While shooting my M&P 9c at the range today I noticed the tritium insert on my front sight popped out. I looked around but it was lost. They are trijicon night sights that were on the gun when I bought it new from OMB Express a little over a month ago. Do I contact Trijicon or S&W since they were labeled Factory Night Sights when I bought it?
Contact S&W.
HOLY SMOKES! And live fire on top of that.
Approximately 40k. The vast majority of that was white box, when it was cheap.
G34Shooter
05-01-10, 21:21
Anyone have experience with RWS ammo made in Switzerland and sold in Walmart? I had 2 Failures to Fire in a box of 50 while qualifying, the primers were dented.
My M&P9 has had no failures. Solid extractor pin, and records show the Winchester White Box total to be 910 rounds.
Both of my brothers have M&P9s as well. No issues with theirs that I know of (and I probably would know of any problems).
My oldest brother also picked up an M&P45. It had a couple of issues that I got sorted out. I posted about the issue and their resolution on MP-pistol.com a couple of years ago. I reckon it's germaine to this thread, so I'll post it here too (in a bit).
Anyone have experience with RWS ammo made in Switzerland and sold in Walmart? I had 2 Failures to Fire in a box of 50 while qualifying, the primers were dented.
There's an arfcom thread on it, and a couple of foks noted your issue.
I noticed that a magnet will pick up a round by its nose.
G34Shooter
05-01-10, 22:35
There's an arfcom thread on it, and a couple of foks noted your issue.
I noticed that a magnet will pick up a round by its nose.
Thanks, I will look for it :cool:
When my brother got his new M&P45, he had some FTFs.
Looking over it, there were some issues...
The firing pin block plunger seemed like it was not working properly. The firing pin could be pushed forward without depressing the plunger.
http://members.cox.net/drmark/MP45/MP45v05.JPG
The firing pin would hang forward until the plunger was pushed, at which time it would pop back rearward. When the plunger was not depressed, it didn't protrude as much as does the plunger on my M&P9.
http://members.cox.net/drmark/MP45/MP45v04.JPG
Also, I noticed that when returning the takedown lever to horizontal, it often bumped the large solid pin, which seemed to sit too far to the left in the frame.
http://members.cox.net/drmark/MP45/MP45v01.JPG
http://members.cox.net/drmark/MP45/MP45v03.JPG
Concerning the FTF, they looked like this:
http://members.cox.net/drmark/MP45/MP45v06.JPG
http://members.cox.net/drmark/MP45/MP45v07.JPG
It was doing it for me when dropping the slide using the slide release, but my brother verified that this is what they looked like while shooting. Note that the rim is against the edge of the extractor, but has not slipped under it. My brother got these FTFs with Independence 230 gr FMJ and Federal Hydra-Shok 185 gr +P, but not (that he recalls) with Blazer 230 gr FMJ.
First, a moderate tap with a punch seated the protruding pin to an appropriate depth.
http://members.cox.net/drmark/MP45/MP45v14.JPG
http://members.cox.net/drmark/MP45/MP45v15.JPG
On to the firing pin safety plunger...
I removed the back plate and the striker. In the area of the plunger visible through the striker channel, I saw something that looked like a piece of broken coil spring. Upon extracting it, it turned out to be debris from machining, or some kind of flashing (see picture below). This had been impeding the motion of the plunger. Very sloppy on S&W's part.
http://members.cox.net/drmark/MP45/MP45v08.JPG
I reassembled, and found that the plunger would now protrude out from the bottom of the slide to its full extent... sometimes. Sometimes the plunger would not fully extend, but wiggling the tail of the striker back and forth would cause the plunger to pop up the rest of the way.
I determined the plunger was catching on part of the striker, and identified where. A few strokes with a needle file (smoothing and a slight chamfering) followed by a little cold blue (because we Engineers tend to be anal-retentive), and the plunger was working as intended. In the picture below, note that the area I worked is in the faint red box. The piece already had that shape; very little metal was removed (again, smoothing and a slight chamfering). Incidentally, after working that piece, it more resembled the corresponding piece (visible in the background) from my M&P9, which has worked without issue.
http://members.cox.net/drmark/MP45/MP45v16.JPG
The black plastic sleeve looks ratty in the above picture. It's not. I guess that's just some grime and dirty Q-tip fibers in the picture.
subzero here is an M&P armorer. He said a light polish to the feed ramp and top of the chamber may help. Yeah, the ramp didn't look that smooth, actually. I should have taken a "before" picture, but it was not nearly as smooth as the ramp on my M&P9.
Anyway, I gave the feed ramp and top of the chamber a very light polish. It's not completely mirror-like, but it's much smoother, and I kept the polishing light. It can always be polished more later; going the other direction is not an option.
Feed ramp with light polishing:
http://members.cox.net/drmark/MP45/MP45v17.JPG
Range trips after this work has conformed proper function.
Since we are talking about issues with the M&P, there is another one. It is called auto forwarding and S&W is aware of it (and has lost contracts because of it).
Some (this would include me) have no issues with auto forwarding. All M&P's do it, but how hard you have to insert the mag to get it to happen will vary from gun to gun.
We worked up a new slide catch for the M&P and gave it to S&W at Shot Show. It made it much harder for the gun to auto forward, but was still easy to release (hard thing to do). They are currently T&Eing it.
For those that don't know, most all handguns can be made to auto forward. Some are just harder to do than others.
C4
I've run into auto forwarding a lot with my M&P (bought within the last 6 months or so) and to be honest...
I love this "Feature"
I think it is the force of the insertion causing the slide to jump or it is catching on the slide catch.
For me its definitely force. If I gently insert my magazine then there is no auto forward.
Anyone have experience with RWS ammo made in Switzerland and sold in Walmart? I had 2 Failures to Fire in a box of 50 while qualifying, the primers were dented.
I shot 100 of the 124gr FMJ RWS rounds picked up from Wal-Mart last week with no malfunctions in my PTC M&P9 (720 rounds with no failures to function to date). Displayed better accuracy than WWB 100 rd Value Packs. I'll buy them again.
Cheers,
Pk
Anyone have experience with RWS ammo made in Switzerland and sold in Walmart? I had 2 Failures to Fire in a box of 50 while qualifying, the primers were dented.
I have fired approximately 800 rds of it through several pistols over the last two months and have not had any problems with it.
G34Shooter
05-02-10, 11:45
I have fired approximately 800 rds of it through several pistols over the last two months and have not had any problems with it.
Maybe I just got a bad box, I didn't have a chance to do anything other than a quick look but there was a full dent in the primer.
SpookyPistolero
05-02-10, 18:01
I'm confused about the M&P and why folks here find it so impressive. I like the low bore axis/etc, I can get on board with that. But why would a group of folks who really use their weapons hard tolerate a pistol that requires a bunch of fixes and upgrades out-of-the-box? Any other platform would be laughed away if it required that.
I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just genuinely confused why such a no-BS group of people would tolerate this situation.
Tennvol12345
05-02-10, 18:05
Me too. After the XD hate thread I thought that the MP was the cats ass. BTW I carry and shoot MPs
We are getting new pistols at work in a few months. We got in an M&P .40 and a gen4 Glock22 (both brand new) for test/evaluation and had each officer shoot a qual with both pistols and pick the one they liked.
About 40 officers shot the 30 round course of fire. All in all there were 11 malfunctions with the M&P, 0 with the Glock. We had FTF malfunctions and the pin that holds the backstrap on kept falling out. Range ammo is Speer 180 grn lawman TMJ. A LOT of people said they preferred how the M&P felt and shot (me included) but we could not get over the reliability.
I'm not sure if the problem was a bad apple or what but that was Smith & Wesson's chance and they blew it. I really have not heard anything bad about the pistol and was surprised to see this happening. We did not spend any time diagnosing problems as the guns were in our possession for a limited time. Needless to say, Glock won out. We will have a carload of gen4 Glock 22s coming our way in a month or so, along with new holsters and a TLR1 for every gun. I hope they work out...
ETA: The rep from Smith/Wesson also told us that the guns would have to be shipped back to the factory for some of the armoring such as replacing the extractor which was another thing that helped Glock win.
We got in an M&P .40 and a gen4 Glock22 (both brand new) for test/evaluation and had each officer shoot a qual with both pistols and pick the one they liked.
Just to clarify, you got in (1) of each gun?
Another "Why an M&P if they have fleas?" thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=51836
I think it addresses why, even given the problems some guns have.
The question I ask myself is, what gun does it better than an M&P? A Glock? The Gen 4s are what they are, and the Gen 3s are what prompted me to check out the M&P in the first place. An XD? An SR9? A Beretta? A Sig? An HK? We can all point to friends who have good or bad experiences with each. Everything has it's own flaws, it's own pluses and minuses. I tend to think the M&P is the gun that has the best balance, some folks go a different way. Thing is, they're not wrong and neither am I.
Just to clarify, you got in (1) of each gun?
Yes, 1 Glock and 1 S&W, both in .40
Yes, 1 Glock and 1 S&W, both in .40
That sucks. You can't (properly) run a proper product evaluation with a sample size of 1.
That sucks. You can't (properly) run a proper product evaluation with a sample size of 1.
Well, maybe. But we weren't really looking to do a months long evaluation of the reliability and longevity (other than to test our range and duty ammo through it) since it has such a good reputation. We were looking to get a gun that people shoot better since we are only allowed 1 handgun, no alternatives and no choices after the agency makes the decision. This is why we were surprised at the problems. These are the only 2 guns we considered.
I'm confused about the M&P and why folks here find it so impressive. I like the low bore axis/etc, I can get on board with that. But why would a group of folks who really use their weapons hard tolerate a pistol that requires a bunch of fixes and upgrades out-of-the-box? Any other platform would be laughed away if it required that.
I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just genuinely confused why such a no-BS group of people would tolerate this situation.
I definitely wouldn't say that it "requires a bunch of fixes and upgrades out-of-the-box..."
Not that I'm a member in the "hard use/no-BS group"(maybe moderate use/BS;))....
I've been following the M&P closely for about three years.I bought my first 2+ years ago.I'm getting ready to purchase a third...
The only thing I plan to do is check and possibly replace the striker(if it's the older style) as preventative maintenance.It's a $30 part that takes minutes to install.
If I add the Apex upgrades(which I may) they would be considered luxury items in my mind.The M&P stands on it's own OTB IMO.
glockshooter
05-02-10, 19:35
Correct you are and is why they are the king of ND's! ;)
I won't go any farther as I don't want derail this from it's intended purpose.
C4
Really Grant. You are killing me. I really dont get you sometimes. You are one of the most helpful guys on this forum and I have spent money buying gear from you, but you also say some of the stupidist stuff. I am actually offended that a pro-gun person like yourself would make such a stupid statement. No Glock has ever fired without someone pulling the trigger. I really wish you would stick to the same rules you want everyone else to go by. I had had about all the editorializing I can handle. You are defending MPs for the same things you are bashing Glocks for. I just wish a guy like yourself that is respected on this forum would act worthy of the respect people give you. All we want are facts not you defending your chosen weapon.
Matt
I'm confused about the M&P and why folks here find it so impressive. I like the low bore axis/etc, I can get on board with that. But why would a group of folks who really use their weapons hard tolerate a pistol that requires a bunch of fixes and upgrades out-of-the-box? Any other platform would be laughed away if it required that.
I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just genuinely confused why such a no-BS group of people would tolerate this situation.
I am not sure if you read the first post and then my responses or not.
The point was to discuss extraction issues with the 9mm's and WWB ammo and trigger reset with the S&W PC Sear.
Keep in mind that not every pistol in 9mm has issues with WWB and not every M&P with the PC sear has a trigger reset issue.
The Apex Tactical sear and striker block is nothing more than a trigger job. Some might like the factory trigger and don't need to do anything to their guns.
So really, there is nothing to "tolerate."
C4
Really Grant. You are killing me. I really dont get you sometimes. You are one of the most helpful guys on this forum and I have spent money buying gear from you, but you also say some of the stupidist stuff. I am actually offended that a pro-gun person like yourself would make such a stupid statement. No Glock has ever fired without someone pulling the trigger. I really wish you would stick to the same rules you want everyone else to go by. I had had about all the editorializing I can handle. You are defending MPs for the same things you are bashing Glocks for. I just wish a guy like yourself that is respected on this forum would act worthy of the respect people give you. All we want are facts not you defending your chosen weapon.
Matt
I am really sorry, but I have no idea what your upset about .
The Glock IS the king of ND's SOLELY because you have to pull the trigger to break down the gun. Notice also, I said ND & NOT AD! Very important point. An AD can be a round cook off, mechanical failure or an ammunition failure. An ND is is a stupid user trick.
Yes, we all know that you check the chamber on every gun you pick up and then re-check it before you disassemble it. This of course is a perfect world and one that we don't live in. Most people have very poor gun handling skills. The Glock pistol simply showcases this issue as you have to pull the trigger to break it down.
Because of this, I consider the Glock a "flawed design" in that area. Guns that don't require one to pull the trigger to break the weapon down are a better choice for many (especially cops that think of their pen the same way they think of their gun).
If you don't like my opinion, that is just fine with me, as we all have one.
C4
My dept tested the 4th Gen G22 against the M&P 40, head to head. Most shooters liked the feel of the M&P's grip, but hated the trigger. And the M&P broke parts that tied up the gun. I believe it was the slide release and another part that came out-maybe a pin walked out.
The G22 4th Gen went 8000 rounds trouble free, the trigger felt great and everyone thought the new grip was a big improvement, especially with small handed shooters.
The M&P was a front runner due to a good trade-in deal with holsters, but even the M&P guys admitted that reliability was number one, so we stayed with Glock.
Littlelebowski
05-03-10, 11:11
My dept tested the 4th Gen G22 against the M&P 40, head to head. Most shooters liked the feel of the M&P's grip, but hated the trigger. And the M&P broke parts that tied up the gun. I believe it was the slide release and another part that came out-maybe a pin walked out.
The G22 4th Gen went 8000 rounds trouble free, the trigger felt great and everyone thought the new grip was a big improvement, especially with small handed shooters.
The M&P was a front runner due to a good trade-in deal with holsters, but even the M&P guys admitted that reliability was number one, so we stayed with Glock.
Can you tell us how many new pistols will be issued (in a Gen4 Glock thread)? We'd also sure appreciate you keeping us up to date on the Gen4 Glocks and how they pan out in the real world; of course in one of the Gen4 Glock threads.
Thank you for sharing the info.
Not to nit pick, but how many glocks do you sell Grant?
Not to nit pick, but how many glocks do you sell Grant?
How many would be enough for you?
How many Glock's would I need to have own(ed) to form my opinions.
How many rounds in training classes would I need to log to have the opinions I do?
Not, "nit picking" your question, but I know where you are trying to go.
C4
Anyone have experience with RWS ammo made in Switzerland and sold in Walmart? I had 2 Failures to Fire in a box of 50 while qualifying, the primers were dented.
Three FTF's in one box of 50. One round was a complete dud. After 13 strikes it wouldnt go off in my 5 inch pro, 4.25 9, 9c or my buddies g19.
The other two ftf's went off on the second strike.
Im thinking hard primers. I dont know if this was a bad run or what but the other 500 rounds of the swedish stuff have been just fine.
G34Shooter
05-03-10, 12:11
Three FTF's in one box of 50. One round was a complete dud. After 13 strikes it wouldnt go off in my 5 inch pro, 4.25 9, 9c or my buddies g19.
The other two ftf's went off on the second strike.
Im thinking hard primers. I dont know if this was a bad run or what but the other 500 rounds of the swedish stuff have been just fine.
This is the cheapest brass cased ammo in my area that doesn't feel like a squib going off, maybe I will try it again :o
Here's my experience with M&P9s, 2 guns, approx 5000 fired:
its a great design, extremely shootable, but with some QC flaws. Those flaws are fixable, and S&W will make it right. Still, I don't trust them out of the box, sight unseen.
M&P9 #1:
1500 rds without a hitch, super easy to shoot well, shot great, felt great, accurate, shot my best ever IDPA classifier (at the time) the first time I picked up. Then, I dropped it in the snow, brought it inside, and the slide rusted the next morning. No problem, I'd heard there was a bad run of finishes.
Sent the gun back on S&W dime - S&W was very helpful and replaced the slide and barrel for free. Got the gun back, shot great, felt great, accurate, made SSP master with it. Put about 2500 rds through it this way. But, I was getting partial extraction every 200-500 rounds. I didn't know to check if it was with white box at the time. Also, put a pro sear in, had 1 failure to reset - hasn't reoccured since.
Sent gun back for the 2nd time for extraction problems, S&W paid for everything. Got the gun back with new extractor, and apparently a new barrel. Another 2000 rds, zero function issues, the gun eats everything. But accuracy went out the window. To the point that I'm dropping 2X as many points, and can't shoot anything other than patterns, even from a bench. Went from dropping 10-20 pts on the classifier to 30-40 points.
Sent the gun back to S&W last week for accuracy issue. On their dime. S&W customer service has been excellent - they aim to please. Haven't got the gun back yet.
M&P9 #2: purchased a second M&P9 2 in March. It shoots well, reasonably accurate. In 1100 rds, 4 partial extractions - with WWB. Go figure. Also, had 1 light primer strike, the second strike ignited - maybe need to clean out the striker channel or put a heavier striker spring in - or maybe just a hard primer, I dunno.
So my take - these are easily fixable issues, and S&W will make it right. Its a solid design, if it wasn't, there's no way Todd Green's gun could have performed like it did. But I've had too many little bugs for me to enthusiastically endorse yet.
One of my IDPA buddies shoots an M&P9pro - same extraction issue every few hundred rounds.
I love the things, but just don't think the M&P9 is quite there yet.
one more thing....
It's possible that all of the partial extractions might have been from WWB. I reload in bulk, and some of my brass is WWB. I only started checking the headstamps after Grant suggested it. If it is just WWB, then the problem is a little more palatable.
Still, never had a problem shooting WWB out of a BHP or G19, so there's some room for improvement there.
Looking forward to the Apex extractor.
Here's my experience with M&P9s, 2 guns, approx 5000 fired:
its a great design, extremely shootable, but with some QC flaws. Those flaws are fixable, and S&W will make it right. Still, I don't trust them out of the box, sight unseen.
M&P9 #1:
1500 rds without a hitch, super easy to shoot well, shot great, felt great, accurate, shot my best ever IDPA classifier (at the time) the first time I picked up. Then, I dropped it in the snow, brought it inside, and the slide rusted the next morning. No problem, I'd heard there was a bad run of finishes.
Sent the gun back on S&W dime - S&W was very helpful and replaced the slide and barrel for free. Got the gun back, shot great, felt great, accurate, made SSP master with it. Put about 2500 rds through it this way. But, I was getting partial extraction every 200-500 rounds. I didn't know to check if it was with white box at the time. Also, put a pro sear in, had 1 failure to reset - hasn't reoccured since.
Sent gun back for the 2nd time for extraction problems, S&W paid for everything. Got the gun back with new extractor, and apparently a new barrel. Another 2000 rds, zero function issues, the gun eats everything. But accuracy went out the window. To the point that I'm dropping 2X as many points, and can't shoot anything other than patterns, even from a bench. Went from dropping 10-20 pts on the classifier to 30-40 points.
Sent the gun back to S&W last week for accuracy issue. On their dime. S&W customer service has been excellent - they aim to please. Haven't got the gun back yet.
M&P9 #2: purchased a second M&P9 2 in March. It shoots well, reasonably accurate. In 1100 rds, 4 partial extractions - with WWB. Go figure. Also, had 1 light primer strike, the second strike ignited - maybe need to clean out the striker channel or put a heavier striker spring in - or maybe just a hard primer, I dunno.
So my take - these are easily fixable issues, and S&W will make it right. Its a solid design, if it wasn't, there's no way Todd Green's gun could have performed like it did. But I've had too many little bugs for me to enthusiastically endorse yet.
One of my IDPA buddies shoots an M&P9pro - same extraction issue every few hundred rounds.
I love the things, but just don't think the M&P9 is quite there yet.
Good post. One thing is for certain, S&W has the best CS!
I personally think that the 9mm M&P is the least reliable of the calibers with the 40 being the best followed by the 45. This is very different from most polymer guns as their 9mm's tend to be the most reliable.
The answer to the 9mm extraction issues is to just not shoot WWB. :D That really isn't the answer though as this is typically the most shot ammo.
I think we all have to remember that the Glock has more than 20yrs on the M&P. Time and large production runs are GREAT ways to debug your weapon.
C4
TriumphRat675
05-03-10, 13:11
I consider the Glock a "flawed design" in that area. Guns that don't require one to pull the trigger to break the weapon down are a better choice for many (especially cops that think of their pen the same way they think of their gun).
This is exactly right. I get irritated when someone says something like "sounds like a hardware fix for a software problem" or something similarly stupid. Software problems happen; people get tired or lazy or they have a brain fart and bad things happen. If there is a hardware fix that will eliminate the software problem from causing problems, that is a good thing.
I have a Glock and like it OK, but IMHO pulling the trigger should do one thing and one thing only, and that is make the gun go bang. The M&P is a big improvement over the Glock in this regard.
Back on topic, I had a very early (MPA serial # range) .40 cal M&P that had about a dozen light primer strikes in the first several hundred rounds and a barrel with some cosmetic issues. Smith replaced both real quick-like, and after a trip to the factory it has had no mechanical problems since, while my M&P 9 went from out of the box to an Aim Fast Hit Fast class and never choked.
I wonder, if there was an Interwebz back when the first Glocks came out if there would have a similar thread about Glock problems...
This is exactly right. I get irritated when someone says something like "sounds like a hardware fix for a software problem" or something similarly stupid. Software problems happen; people get tired or lazy or they have a brain fart and bad things happen. If there is a hardware fix that will eliminate the software problem from causing problems, that is a good thing.
I have a Glock and like it OK, but IMHO pulling the trigger should do one thing and one thing only, and that is make the gun go bang. The M&P is a big improvement over the Glock in this regard.
Back on topic, I had a very early (MPA serial # range) .40 cal M&P that had about a dozen light primer strikes in the first several hundred rounds and a barrel with some cosmetic issues. Smith replaced both real quick-like, and after a trip to the factory it has had no mechanical problems since, while my M&P 9 went from out of the box to an Aim Fast Hit Fast class and never choked.
I wonder, if there was an Interwebz back when the first Glocks came out if there would have a similar thread about Glock problems...
Thanks for the feedback.
Glock's came out in 1982, but didn't come into this country for several more years I believe. Back then, gun forums really didn't exist like they do today. Most people just believed whatever their local gun dealer told them (which was and still is generally low quality intel).
I have to imagine that if we had the large forums and wealth of info (like we do now) back then, peoples opinions of Glock's and lots of other guns would be totally different.
Both my GEN 2 and GEN 3 G19's ran well and never gave me any issues. I just never shot them all that well. Such is life.
C4
I wonder, if there was an Interwebz back when the first Glocks came out if there would have a similar thread about Glock problems...
There sure has. If I've seen one, I've seen a hundred.
TriumphRat675
05-03-10, 15:13
There sure has. If I've seen one, I've seen a hundred.
I know - I keep forgetting sarcasm doesn't translate well in print.
I think the larger point is that the M&P has some issues...and the Glock has some issues, and the Beretta 92 has some issues, and if there were as many HK's out there as there are Glocks I bet we'd see more HK problem threads. No matter who makes the gun you choose, you've got to function check it yourself, accept the fact that any mechanism undergoing as complicated a cycle as a handgun firing/extracting/ejecting/chambering a round from a magazine is going to crap the bed once in a while - hopefully once in a great while - fix any issues if you can and move on with life.
Preach on brutha! LOL EVERY time I eye some new pistol to possibly wring out so I don't leave any important stones unturned before getting too old to rack a slide, I zero in on the forum dedicated to that brand and what do I see? Plenty of happy shooters but also plenty of folks with problems. Sigs, H&K, FN, all the neat new-ish "go fast" CZ models - all those dedicated forums have a good number of folks with problematic guns . . . and with the volume of Glocks out there vs some of these others . . . I tend to think Glock 9mms have fewer issues than almost any other but I won't argue that point if someone contests it. Why bother eh?
I just finished a 2K test with my Pro 9 and the gun is just sick for fast 'n fancy action games. I have posted before I shoot every drill faster and more accurate with it vs my Glocks or TRP. The trigger is too light for my comfort level in a carry gun but that's addressed in the stock guns I guess. The two fails to reset I saw near the end of my 2K test are of only mild concern. The gun is too sweet to give up on over that. However personally I still prefer to carry any of my G19s or 17s for SD YMMV.
...I consider the Glock a "flawed design"...
:eek:
Do the M&P9 Pro's have these same issues??
Dane
Just got new M&P .45. I noticed last night that when I insert a mag if it is not at just the right angle the top front of the magazine catches on the magazine release. Is this a common probelm? I'm thinking the easiest fix would be to remove the release and file the bottom corner slightly or just file the edge that sticks out down a hair. Any opinions or experiance with this problem? Is the mag release a readily available part? I don;'t want to send it back to S&W for something that seems this easy to fix, especially since I haven't even fired this one yet. But if I can't get another release I don't want to void the warranty on the gun if it dosen't fix the problem.
For what its worth all four of my M&P's (i own three now) have ALL ran absolutely fabulously on WWB ammo.
My main 4.25 inch M&P 9 has spit out over 31000 rounds now, about 27000 of them being wwb with nary an issue. There is visible wear on the full size 9's extractor but it still continues to work without qualm.
I have never removed the extractor for cleaning on any of my guns as i do not own the hammer of thor needed to remove the roll pin. :)
My newest gun is a 9mm pro that has 500 rounds through it. Three light primer strikes but i am attributing that to the ammo and im also running a 13 pound recoil spring.
I definitely wouldn't say that it "requires a bunch of fixes and upgrades out-of-the-box..."
That's what I was thinking, too. I don't think that most of the stuff we see folks do with their M&Ps are required fixes. They're things that enhance the shooter's ability to use the pistol as well as they can, but they're not strictly necessary.
The trigger jobs, sight swaps, Apex sears, are all more in the "like-to-have" category from a functional standpoint. Not "have-to-have." I've had the triggers on each my .45 and 9c tweaked, and while I definitely like the results, there's no way I can objectively say that it was an absolute must. Better? Hell, yes, but I could have gone on shooting either with what I had.
Same with sights; I like the Warrens on my .45 better than the originals, but I still have stock sights on the 9c and it shoots as well as I can shoot it once I had the rear drifted a tad. May change them over, may not.
If your slide sometimes closes on its own upon slamming a mag in, so long as it doesn't cause feed problems and you don't fall into the trap of thinking of it as a "feature" (it's NOT, it's a result of a certain combination of circumstances), then it's certainly difficult to objectively define it as a design flaw. Subjectively, it's damned easy.
Parts breaking before they're ideally supposed to are another thing entirely, a pretty distinct "must have." Given how popular the M&P series pistols have become (due to good design!), I don't think that the tales of such things are common enough to point to anything than the intermittent QC issues common to even the very best of mass-produced manufactured items.
I think that it boils down to the shooter remembering that -- just because they define something as a requirement as a shooter in no way indicates that it is the same as a requirement for a given platform to function in the way it was designed.
:eek:
Please make sure to NOT take what I said out of context.
I was referring to how one breaks down the weapon and nothing else.
C4
Do the M&P9 Pro's have these same issues??
Dane
Since they run the PC Sear, they can. If they are in 9mm, they can have extraction issues with WWB 9mm ammo.
C4
Please make sure to NOT take what I said out of context.
...but in context, it's no fun! :p
I was referring to how one breaks down the weapon and nothing else.
I know. You were clear. ...still gotta have fun with it. :D
Ironically, I've never used the little sear drop wire to take down an M&P. I use the trigger to drop the sear for disassembly, like I do for a Glock. The little tool has never even been out of the grip of my M&P9.
That said, I understand designing to reduce liability, and removing a step that is a part of every ND is certainly understandable.
...but in context, it's no fun! :p
I know. You were clear. ...still gotta have fun with it. :D
Ironically, I've never used the little sear drop wire to take down an M&P. I use the trigger to drop the sear for disassembly, like I do for a Glock. The little tool has never even been out of the grip of my M&P9.
That said, I understand designing to reduce liability, and removing a step that is a part of every ND is certainly understandable.
I am all for fun (at my expense). :)
C4
Keep in mind that I currently am authorized a 1911 and 9 mm Glock.
Riverine's comments above are right on. Maybe we are just lucky, but we have not seen any major problems yet with M&P's (primarily .40 & .45's). I was involved in a M&P40 trial at a large agency where four M&P40's fired 7000 rounds each in 1 week without any significant problems--despite a lack of cleaning and lube, no failures to feed or function occurred. The M&P40 may just be the best LE service pistol produced to date Without a doubt, the M&P offers the softest shooting feel and least subjective recoil of any .40 S&W I have shot--despite the larger caliber, the M&P40 feels a lot like shooting a 3rd Gen G17. The most recent M&P40's (primarily DSW SN's) I've shot had very good stock triggers that felt fine right out of the box. On the other hand, the M&P45's (mainly MPU SN's) had relatively poor triggers at first, but by 1000 or so rounds they smoothed out to an acceptable feel. 10-8 baseplates work great and seem to prevent baseplate cracking issues--I personally use them on all my M&P mags. I know a lot of folks have broken strikers, but despite a lot of dry firing (albeit with snap-caps) of multiple M&P's, I have yet to break a striker. The M&P 40's and especially the 45's have proven to be very accurate. Most importantly, I cannot recall ever personally seeing a malfunction with a full-size M&P40 or M&P45. The M&P40 w/ambi safety and possibly a Performance Center or Apex sear will be the service pistol I'll pick if I ever go back to patrol duties again; likewise, if I ever choose to migrate away from a 1911, the M&P45 is what will replace it... On the other hand, despite ToddG's great test proving the 9 mm M&P efficacy, for now I'll stick with 3rd gen 9 mm Glocks over the 9 mm M&P due to their superb history and parts availability.
Oh--someone I know who has shot a lot more 9 mm M&P's than I, have mentioned that the M&P does indeed shoot better with higher pressure rounds do to the locking sequence with the pistol.
ohiorifleman
05-05-10, 09:14
I have a couple of further questions as it relates to the lack of trigger reset.
1. Has anybody experienced this with the stock sear?
2. Does anybody have a PC sear that did not exhibit reset issues early on but then developed them down the road, say after at least a couple thousand rounds or more?
Thanks,
Steve
Just started happening to me on a box stock M&P 40 that I was using while teaching a CCW class this weekend. App. 3,000 rounds through the pistol and had it occur 3 times in 200 rounds during the course of the class.
G34Shooter
05-05-10, 12:58
Keep in mind that I currently am authorized a 1911 and 9 mm Glock.
Riverine's comments above are right on. Maybe we are just lucky, but we have not seen any major problems yet with M&P's (primarily .40 & .45's). I was involved in a M&P40 trial at a large agency where four M&P40's fired 7000 rounds each in 1 week without any significant problems--despite a lack of cleaning and lube, no failures to feed or function occurred. The M&P40 may just be the best LE service pistol produced to date Without a doubt, the M&P offers the softest shooting feel and least subjective recoil of any .40 S&W I have shot--despite the larger caliber, the M&P40 feels a lot like shooting a 3rd Gen G17. The most recent M&P40's (primarily DSW SN's) I've shot had very good stock triggers that felt fine right out of the box. On the other hand, the M&P45's (mainly MPU SN's) had relatively poor triggers at first, but by 1000 or so rounds they smoothed out to an acceptable feel. 10-8 baseplates work great and seem to prevent baseplate cracking issues--I personally use them on all my M&P mags. I know a lot of folks have broken strikers, but despite a lot of dry firing (albeit with snap-caps) of multiple M&P's, I have yet to break a striker. The M&P 40's and especially the 45's have proven to be very accurate. Most importantly, I cannot recall ever personally seeing a malfunction with a full-size M&P40 or M&P45. The M&P40 w/ambi safety and possibly a Performance Center or Apex sear will be the service pistol I'll pick if I ever go back to patrol duties again; likewise, if I ever choose to migrate away from a 1911, the M&P45 is what will replace it... On the other hand, despite ToddG's great test proving the 9 mm M&P efficacy, for now I'll stick with 3rd gen 9 mm Glocks over the 9 mm M&P due to their superb history and parts availability.
Oh--someone I know who has shot a lot more 9 mm M&P's than I, have mentioned that the M&P does indeed shoot better with higher pressure rounds do to the locking sequence with the pistol.
Interesting, I'd like to know more about this :cool:
So would I..
I reload, and I have noticed a accuracy difference with warmer loads, I don't know why, but both of my M&P's (9&45) seem to prefer a warmer load...
G34Shooter
05-05-10, 21:02
Maybe it has to do with S&W wacky 1/18ish twist? I know SL has a 1/16 and I hope that's what Bar-Sto goes with.
ohiorifleman
05-06-10, 18:05
Just started happening to me on a box stock M&P 40 that I was using while teaching a CCW class this weekend. App. 3,000 rounds through the pistol and had it occur 3 times in 200 rounds during the course of the class.
Sending mine back to S&W- CS Rep didn't sound like this was the first he'd heard of it on a stock .40. Will do a AAR when it is back in my hands.
I have a 9c and a 40FS. I absolutely love both. Only issue after 3000 rounds through each, is 1/2 a dozen or so misfires with the 9c, but only with Fiocchi ammo - each 1 had a dented primer, and when I rechambered them and fired again, they went bang; I suspect this ammo (or at least this lot) has overly hard primers.
Other than the above, both have been 100% flawless to date. I've done nothing to either one yet (I did buy the APEX Sear and Plunger, but not installed yet) other than basic field-strip cleaning and light lube every 1000 rounds or so - didn't even break 'em down for a clean and lube OTB, just went straight to the range and started firing (it appears I was fortunate here - didn't know better at the time that I was supposed to clean and lube OTB before using).
Both are SD "tools", not target or comp guns, so I don't know from poor triggers - although they are much better than my J-Frame snubbie ;) - I shoot for "minute-of-man", or combat accuracy, so I can't really tell the difference between a M&P trigger and Glock trigger (or XD, Ruger, Sig or Berretta for that matter).
Thinking of Doc's comments, I suspect the Glock 9s are so good because the Glock platform was originally designed and built from the ground up for the 9mm; the M&P 40 is so good because the M&P platform was originally designed and built from the ground up for the 40S&W. However, I've just never been able to warm up to the Glock in any size/caliber due to "fit" in my hands and on my person (I've shot at least 100 rounds in the G17, G19 and G26, and tried to carry each IWB, which is a must for me, as I am predominately in an NPE most of the day).
I have a couple of further questions as it relates to the lack of trigger reset.
1. Has anybody experienced this with the stock sear?
2. Does anybody have a PC sear that did not exhibit reset issues early on but then developed them down the road, say after at least a couple thousand rounds or more?
Thanks,
Steve
I have, twice that I can recall in my 1500-1700 rounds with my M&P9. Pulled the trigger, no joy, no click, nothing. Cycled the gun, good round flew out onto the ground and it continued to function normally. Never had a feed or extraction issue caused by the gun.
I haven't done anything to it other than clean it since I purchased it. The sear is stock AFAIK
Just started happening to me on a box stock M&P 40 that I was using while teaching a CCW class this weekend. App. 3,000 rounds through the pistol and had it occur 3 times in 200 rounds during the course of the class.
I have, twice that I can recall in my 1500-1700 rounds with my M&P9. Pulled the trigger, no joy, no click, nothing. Cycled the gun, good round flew out onto the ground and it continued to function normally. Never had a feed or extraction issue caused by the gun.
I haven't done anything to it other than clean it since I purchased it. The sear is stock AFAIK
It appears that the trigger will also fail to reset with the stock sear. We know that it can occur with the PC sear. It would be interesting to know the frequency at which this occurs with the stock sear. Any other reports out there?
Grant, any idea why this would occur with stock parts?
Thanks,
Steve
It appears that the trigger will also fail to reset with the stock sear. We know that it can occur with the PC sear. It would be interesting to know the frequency at which this occurs with the stock sear. Any other reports out there?
Grant, any idea why this would occur with stock parts?
Thanks,
Steve
No, not really. The only two times I have ever heard of it is here.
C4
Assy Mcgee
05-08-10, 02:04
i owned an m&p 40 compact that had issues. the slide stop seamed to have a mind of it's own. it would lock open the slide with rounds still in the mag, and not always lock it open on an empty mag.
......and no, i wasn't contacting it during firing.
i did some research and found posts on other forums with this same issue, even a couple PD's that had the prob with their full size mp40's.
most of the time the issue was resolved with a replacement of the slide stop, and spring.
this remedy didn't work for mine. 3 trips back to s&w, and the frequency with which it occurred was reduced, but the problem was never completely eliminated.
ended up selling it to help fund a new 1911 purchase.
It appears that the trigger will also fail to reset with the stock sear.
no.
No.
NO!
It CAN (not WILL) occur with the stock sear, and only because man is fallible and makes stuff that occasionally doesn't work.
Sentences like yours are how myths get started. That's not Grammar Nazi, either; language matters when you're talking about diagnosing stuff and trying to keep track of trends. I don't know how you would interpret "will" out of the facts as presented. The numbers don't even come close to supporting the assertion.
One of our test engineers would brain me with a keyboard if I made statements like that.
SpookyPistolero
05-08-10, 18:10
Played with an M&P at the local gunshop this morning, I gotta say I liked the feel. The grip fit me a bit better than the Glock does I believe (of course I'd need some trigger time before saying so definitely). The trigger was pretty crisp to be honest, I was surprised given all the hubbub around it. The M&P9 may be an upcoming purchase in a couple of months...
G34Shooter
05-08-10, 18:12
Played with an M&P at the local gunshop this morning, I gotta say I liked the feel. The grip fit me a bit better than the Glock does I believe (of course I'd need some trigger time before saying so definitely). The trigger was pretty crisp to be honest, I was surprised given all the hubbub around it. The M&P9 may be an upcoming purchase in a couple of months...
Out of curiousity, what other handguns do you think have a crisp trigger?
SpookyPistolero
05-08-10, 18:22
The unstated subtext I should have added is 'for a striker fired pistol', and 'after the take-up'. The Glock is a lot less so than the M&P I played with, for example. My 1911 is generally my benchmark for 'crisp'.
G34Shooter
05-08-10, 18:26
The unstated subtext I should have added is 'for a striker fired pistol', and 'after the take-up'. The Glock is a lot less so than the M&P I played with, for example. My 1911 is generally my benchmark for 'crisp'.
I've only felt a few M&P triggers including my own and they were all horrible to the dozens of Glock triggers I've owned and tried and even the XD's i shot.
I shot Glocks almost exclusively for about 10 years.When I bought my first M&P I thought the trigger compared favorably aside from the reset.Couldn't say either was "better"...Very similar actually.
If I were to give the Glock trigger a slight advantage it was only because of the more positive reset.The M&P trigger improved after break-in and I would have to rate it better in overall feel/action than either of my Glocks(or others I've fired).
My second M&P had a better out-of-the-box trigger than the first.
I've either been lucky with M&P triggers or unlucky with Glock triggers apparently.
Although,neither have ever given me any real reason to complain.
no.
No.
NO!
It CAN (not WILL) occur with the stock sear, and only because man is fallible and makes stuff that occasionally doesn't work.
Sentences like yours are how myths get started. That's not Grammar Nazi, either; language matters when you're talking about diagnosing stuff and trying to keep track of trends. I don't know how you would interpret "will" out of the facts as presented. The numbers don't even come close to supporting the assertion.
One of our test engineers would brain me with a keyboard if I made statements like that.
I should have used the word "can" instead of "will." I made a mistake in word selection - nothing more and nothing less.
It is only recently that there have been reports and discussion that the PC sear may be a factor in the M&P trigger failing to reset. I would simply like to know if shooters with stock sears in their guns have experienced this as well (two reports have been made in this thread at this time).
Question:
Any thumb safety users experiencing issues with the sear housing block?
When the slide is off of the frame on my 9c with thumb safety i can physically move the sear housing block 2mm's in its recess vertically. This issue is further exacerbated when the thumb safety is engaged.
If i push up on the ejector the whole housing block will move.
With the slide on the pistol the housing block does not appear to move as i believe it is held in place by the front locking block/guide rails.
To date the pistol has not malfunctioned and the only work done to it was an apex sear. The rear roll pin does NOT move and there is ZERO play in the rear so no, the pin was not reinstalled incorrectly. :)
The only reason why i bring this up is that the other three m&p's that ive owned without thumb safeties do not exhibit this tendency.
I bought a M&P9 Pro Series about a year ago. I've only put about 500 rounds through it, with out a hitch though. The trigger feels like it is just starting to break in. I also just got a M&P45 compact size, only put 55 rounds through that so far. I noticed the striker on the Pro is black, but like I said have not encountered any problems yet. If I do I will update. Had a dead magazine OTB, the spring had a soft spot and folded over it's self when loaded. Called S&W and they said I should have a new one in about a week, been just over a week.
Hey Magz what year was your M&P with a TS built?
Question:
Any thumb safety users experiencing issues with the sear housing block?
When the slide is off of the frame on my 9c with thumb safety i can physically move the sear housing block 2mm's in its recess vertically. This issue is further exacerbated when the thumb safety is engaged.
If i push up on the ejector the whole housing block will move.
With the slide on the pistol the housing block does not appear to move as i believe it is held in place by the front locking block/guide rails.
To date the pistol has not malfunctioned and the only work done to it was an apex sear. The rear roll pin does NOT move and there is ZERO play in the rear so no, the pin was not reinstalled incorrectly. :)
The only reason why i bring this up is that the other three m&p's that ive owned without thumb safeties do not exhibit this tendency.
Mid 09 production pistol.
I can dig up the test fire date if i have to.
Well bud my test fire date is January of this year. I have a full size 9 and I just stripped my slide and zero movement on the sear block housing. Only very slight movement of the ejector itself. They have definitely changed something recently unless it is just wear and tear. I am sure you have shot yours MUCH more than mine. Mine was only bought 10 days ago and only has 600 rounds through it.My buddy also has a 9 full size (unsure of test fire date and approx. equal # of rounds thru it as mine) and the way his ejector mounts onto the housing is different than my Smith. I know I didn't answer your question but I am very curious to know what S&W has changed with the housing in the last year or so.
Mid 09 production pistol.
I can dig up the test fire date if i have to.
Well, damn.
Just broke my M&P9's firing pin. The gun was manufactured in 2008. I have about 15,000 dry fires on the pin if my record-keeping isn't in error. I do about the same amount each session, and my sessions are pretty consistent.
I first realized it broke when the gun failed to reset. I stripped the gun down, and yep, pin is done for. I'm not too surprised, as I know it's an issue. If anything, I was waiting on the pin to go. Looks like I'll be giving Smith a call in the morning.
One more thing to what I was saying earlier about sear block housing differences. I received my DCAEK from Apex Tactical and was watching the how to videos from their website and I noticed the sear housing that Randy was working on in the video is slightly different than my own. Maybe I was seeing things but particularly where the ejector mounts seemed different than mine.
Wow, after Todd did the M&P test on his site, it seemed like the whole world thought it was better than the Glock.
I've personally handled:
2 blown up .40S&W M&P's (factory new ammo, Remington frangible).
1 blown up barrel in a M&P9 (factory new ammo, Remington UMC 115gr FMJ).
Multiple mag droppers (known problem).
I've seen a broken solid pin for the extractor in an M&P9 slide, broke in the middle inside the slide.
A broken slide stop.
A M&P9 Pro that wouldn't run on standard pressure target ammo.
Had 3 or 4 magazine related feeding problems in my personal M&P9 in about 2k rounds.
I experiences most of the above while working at a gun store/ range where customers brought them back with problems.
I was on the range for one of the .40S&W detonations, and shot the M&P9 after the barrel ruptured...it ran with a perfect grip, but nothing less. Directly forward of the chamber, at 12 o'clock, there was a small crack all the way thought. I disassembled the pistol, wiped it down/ lubed it...and re-assembed it and shot it. Still had problems, went to relube it, noticed the insane amount of residue on the barrel/ inside of slide...it was then that I saw the crack.
All of these problems I experienced/ witnessed were 12-18 months ago. I have since sold my personal M&P, and don't work at the store anymore.
Daaaaamn, I've heard nothing but bad stuff about those Remington ROUNDS :).... I'll make sure I don't use them on any of my M&P's...
I have always found it interesting when people have a problem with a product. I build street\strip turbo cars for a living.. so to speak. Have seen plenty of engine related problems where the customer swears he did nothing wrong... it should not have broken.. hear it all the time.. The truth is, there is a reason for everything, and it's not always the products fault. I've read online for years how some product failed, but have found more often than not... there is more to the story.. than is usually told. I'll leave it at that for now.. :cool:
MarshallDodge
05-15-10, 22:13
My M&P40 has given me two light primer strikes in the last 100 rounds. The gun is approaching 1500 rounds and about 300 dry fires. I started using a snap cap after the first 100 when I read about the issues with strikers.
It has the black striker and I will be giving S&W a call on Monday to discuss.
Since we are talking about issues with the M&P, there is another one. It is called auto forwarding and S&W is aware of it (and has lost contracts because of it).
Some (this would include me) have no issues with auto forwarding. All M&P's do it, but how hard you have to insert the mag to get it to happen will vary from gun to gun.
Is this issue more pronounced (as in easier to do) than with Glocks? I have handled many Glocks and seems like they all would do this pretty consistently if I gave the mag base a good pop during seating. I can also ease up just enough to make them not do it.
Do the M&Ps tend to autoforward even without an "aggressive" reload?
John_Wayne777
05-15-10, 23:26
Some guys because of their technique get their guns to auto-forward pretty consistently...especially on plastic guns because of the physics involved.
At the range yesterday, 1 mo. old M&P FS 9 Apex sear/strikerblock Approx. round # 640. My friend was taking a turn shooting it. He had a failure to fire. No click. Racked the slide, no dent on primer, round was chambered. Re-chambered round and it fired fine. Any thoughts? I'm a noob, so I don't know where to start.
He had a failure to fire. No click. Racked the slide, no dent on primer, round was chambered. Re-chambered round and it fired fine. Any thoughts?
Did he fully reset the trigger and try again, before racking the slide?
Did he fully reset the trigger and try again, before racking the slide?
He pulled the trigger 3 times, letting the trigger reset. ( to the best of his knowledge), nothing. Dropped the clip, racked slide, round ejected normally. No dent. Re-chambered, fired fine.
At the range yesterday, 1 mo. old M&P FS 9 Apex sear/strikerblock Approx. round # 640. My friend was taking a turn shooting it. He had a failure to fire. No click. Racked the slide, no dent on primer, round was chambered. Re-chambered round and it fired fine. Any thoughts? I'm a noob, so I don't know where to start.
I experienced this when the trigger job on my M&p was pushed too far. Basically the sear/striker engagement was way too minimal and wouldn't always catch the sear (resetting the striker).
I experienced this when the trigger job on my M&p was pushed too far. Basically the sear/striker engagement was way too minimal and wouldn't always catch the sear (resetting the striker).
Sounds like a dead trigger ... not unheard of.
He pulled the trigger 3 times, letting the trigger reset. ( to the best of his knowledge), nothing. Dropped the clip, racked slide, round ejected normally. No dent. Re-chambered, fired fine.
Side note, I noticed when cleaning gun after range time, the part of the trigger bar that hits the plunger?, just the tip was a little bent towards the inside. Is this normal, I can't find pics.
John_Wayne777
05-16-10, 11:19
At the range yesterday, 1 mo. old M&P FS 9 Apex sear/strikerblock Approx. round # 640. My friend was taking a turn shooting it. He had a failure to fire. No click. Racked the slide, no dent on primer, round was chambered. Re-chambered round and it fired fine. Any thoughts? I'm a noob, so I don't know where to start.
Failure to reset. Sometimes the trigger bar may need to be tweaked to work with a trigger system modification. Because of variability in the tolerances for the trigger bars it's sometimes difficult to have a drop in trigger job on some specimens of M&P. I've encountered it myself. I'm shipping my 9C off to Grant so he can take a look at it.
Sounds like a dead trigger ... not unheard of.
A dead trigger is a symptom, not the cause. But yes, a "dead trigger" is another way to describe what you are feeling.
Failure to reset. Sometimes the trigger bar may need to be tweaked to work with a trigger system modification. Because of variability in the tolerances for the trigger bars it's sometimes difficult to have a drop in trigger job on some specimens of M&P. I've encountered it myself. I'm shipping my 9C off to Grant so he can take a look at it.
John_Wayne777,
What sear are you running in your 9C?
Thanks,
Steve
I had a similar thing going on with my 9c, but would have been more accurately described as having what I called a false reset. Letting the trigger out, I'd feel a click that would produce no bang when I pressed again.
Experimented to find out that I needed to feel for a second click, THAT was the actual reset. As one might be able to imagine, I wasn't too fond of the concept. It didn't interfere with the function of the pistol, just my ability to use it.
One Apex sear and striker block with a Mass-compliant spring later, I'm much, much happier, though the current reset isn't as distinct as the work gotM4 did for my .45's trigger.
Some guys because of their technique get their guns to auto-forward pretty consistently...especially on plastic guns because of the physics involved.
Yeah I get that, I was wondering if the M&P seemed more prone to it than Glocks. I don't own an M&P and have only fired them a few times although I will soon have more experience as my dad recently purchased a M&P 9.
John_Wayne777
05-16-10, 17:41
At least in my observations, I haven't seen more of a tendency to auto forward on M&PS than on any other plastic handgun.
S500: I experienced the reset issues after installing the Apex kit on my 9C. I've talked with Randy Lee and some others about it and the general consensus is that my M&P's trigger bar probably has some issues. I was supposed tki send it to Grant a week or so ago but between work, family, and finals I haven't had time to box it up. I'm going to rectify that tomorrow.
G34Shooter
05-16-10, 19:53
My FS M&P 9mm will autoforward with about 1/4 of the pressure of my Glock 34 and I've never did it with my 19 or other Glocks that I can remember.
My FS M&P 9mm will autoforward with about 1/4 of the pressure of my Glock 34 and I've never did it with my 19 or other Glocks that I can remember.
My Pro 9 will autofwd with virtual certainty with a vigorous mag insert at a roughly 45 degree angle towards the bore. I cannot get my Gen 4 G17 to do it. None of my G19s ever would. My G34 would about 25% of the time.
RogerinTPA
05-17-10, 08:18
I broke a striker a few years ago on my first M&P, a FS M&P45, do to dry firing without using snap caps.
My other M&Ps (9, 9c, 40) have been GTG until passing the 6K rounds fired, without cleaning. I was getting quite a few FTFs on them, with light primer hits ( I also shoot thousands of rounds of Wolf through them a year). After breaking them down and inspecting the striker, I found them completely coated and clogged, with red primer residue. I cleaned the strikers, as well as the striker channel and couldn't believe the how hard this stuff was. I used plain old rubbing alcohol to clean the channels and strikers. It melted the residue off pretty quick. After a thorough cleaning, the pistols were back to normal operation.
As far as front sights are concerned, the heights are in fact, .160, and not .165, as measured by a local Smith of 3 front sights, from different manufacturers, including a stock M&P front sight, taken from one of my weapons and confirmed by S&W via phone call. A .165 will make your weapon shoot about 1 1/2 low with 115grn, unless using hotter ammo. I had to replace my Warren front night sights with S&W Night sights (.160) and they are back to shooting POA/POI.
Yep, my MP40FS pretty much will autoforward with a good hit. I like it, save me a step to get it loaded. I don't see any downside to it. Too bad Glock doesn't have that option.... :D If I just load the mag normal, like just push it in, no autoforward occurs... to be honest, it locks in place with no effort needed, so if you don't like the autoforward option, don't try to make it occur... and it won't... :cool:
The only M&P's that i cant get to reliably auto forward each and every time are my 9c's when im running the 12 round mags.
I guess there isnt enough mass being rammed home.
My buddies comment that i reload like the hulk so that probably contributes to why every single full size M&P i put my hands on auto forwards 99% of the time.
Despite reloading like im punching Nancy Pelosi in the face, i still cant reliably get glocks to auto forward, especially 19's.
The only M&P's that i cant get to reliably auto forward each and every time are my 9c's when im running the 12 round mags.
Despite reloading like im punching Nancy Pelosi in the face, i still cant reliably get glocks to auto forward, especially 19's.
Hahaha, I love it!!!!! that's great..
Yeah I get that, I was wondering if the M&P seemed more prone to it than Glocks. I don't own an M&P and have only fired them a few times although I will soon have more experience as my dad recently purchased a M&P 9.
I don't think I've ever had a Glock autoforward. My M&P does it 95% of the time - a feature I'm not exactly pleased with. I would rather it either never do it, or always do it. It's sorta like autoflush urinals:) You get used to them, then end up walking away from a regular one after use:):):) I'd prefer my weapon to do thinks when I tell to do them. In the big picture, however, it's a problem I can deal with.
jm
The only M&P's that i cant get to reliably auto forward each and every time are my 9c's when im running the 12 round mags.
I guess there isnt enough mass being rammed home.
My buddies comment that i reload like the hulk so that probably contributes to why every single full size M&P i put my hands on auto forwards 99% of the time.
Despite reloading like im punching Nancy Pelosi in the face, i still cant reliably get glocks to auto forward, especially 19's.
Hi-jack, sorry.
It is more technique than force involved, IMO. It sounds weird, but a firm positive slap at a 45 degree-ish angle works every time for me with all my Glocks.
Minimal force and no "technique" is required on my M&P.
Again, this has been debated, and it most likely is not a good habit to get into. I have done it for so long it is habit for me.
I agree I would rather have it always happen or not at all. It is interesting to see several people saying they have never gotten a Glock to do it. My experience with several Glocks (including many that are not mine) is that it will happen fairly often, particularly under stress if I don't bear in mind to ease up just a bit on seating a mag. I have also seen many others autoforward in training. I wonder if it has to do with handedness and particular reloading techniques in how the gun is angled during the reload, etc.
Reason I was asking is it was mentioned as a problem by Grant early in the thread in a way that made it sound as if it was particular to M&Ps while my experience is that it happens with Glocks as well.
I suppose if an agency finds autoforwarding unacceptable they go to metal framed guns like Sig or Beretta which have worse problems (IMO) as far as location of controls.
It is more technique than force involved, IMO. It sounds weird, but a firm positive slap at a 45 degree-ish angle works every time for me with all my Glocks.
When you talk about angle do you mean the angle of the mag well to the side toward the magazine pouch the reload is coming from?
Hi-jack, sorry.
It is more technique than force involved, IMO. It sounds weird, but a firm positive slap at a 45 degree-ish angle works every time for me with all my Glocks.
Minimal force and no "technique" is required on my M&P.
Again, this has been debated, and it most likely is not a good habit to get into. I have done it for so long it is habit for me.
I dont slap my magazines, nor do i reload differently when i go from a Glock to an M&P.
Like i said earlier i can rarely get glocks to do this whereas my M&P's all of them, except the 9c's do it 99% of the time.
I think we are all in agreement that its something any plastic pistol can "suffer" from but the M&P seems to do it alot easier than some of its competitors just like you alluded to in your post.
For me its not an issue because its not something that im going out of my way to induce. If it happens, it happens, if it doesnt i power stroke the bitch and get it back up and running.
In a perfect world i would prefer it to NOT do this but its such a small concern to me i hardly think of it as a design flaw.
When you talk about angle do you mean the angle of the mag well to the side toward the magazine pouch the reload is coming from?
No. I wish you were here so could just say "here, let me show you". :D
This is something I can not really explain. You just made me run a G23 and G22 mag through my G23 (the gun that is sitting on my counter right now) trying to figure out the exact dynamics of this. Being deliberate makes it inconsistant for me. In live fire, it always happens for me. If it does not automatically "automatic" after seating, one firm tap will send it into battery. (I am actually straying away from the secondary slap and power stroking if the gun does not automatically go into battery.)
The 23 mag went every time. The 22 mag was half and half. I've been asked by others to teach them this technique. Some get it, some don't. My 13 year old son was doing it with my well worn G17. He learned it by simply watching me. He thinks he's a hot shot.
Now my palm hurts trying to dissect this.
Hi-jack off.
Just got my M&PC yesterday, it's a DUD9XXX and the slide release is damn near impossible to work. When the slide is locked back I have to exert way more pressure than I use on my fullsize to release the slide. It's pretty much impossible for my wife to work it. Any ideas? Thanks.
Just got my M&PC yesterday, it's a DUD9XXX and the slide release is damn near impossible to work. When the slide is locked back I have to exert way more pressure than I use on my fullsize to release the slide. It's pretty much impossible for my wife to work it. Any ideas? Thanks.
One of my M&P9s had that same problem. 30 seconds with some fine grit sand paper on the slide release cut out in the slide solved that problem. Very easy fix, works perfectly now. Easy does it though, doesn't take much, and the sand paper will remove finish....but it's finish that would be removed anyway from use of the slide release.
Just got my M&PC yesterday, it's a DUD9XXX and the slide release is damn near impossible to work. When the slide is locked back I have to exert way more pressure than I use on my fullsize to release the slide. It's pretty much impossible for my wife to work it. Any ideas? Thanks.
Get her a membership to the gym?............ ok, just kidding, just went through the same thing with my wife, she's worked on technique. she's ok now. oNE THING SHE CAN TRY IS TO PULL THE RACK BACK WITH ONE HAND WHILE HOLDING THE GUN IN THE OTHER HAND AND RELEASE THE BUTTON WHILE THE PRESSURE IS OFF.. Sorry, hit the caps, not gonna type it over.. :) Also, after a few rounds, looks like it has loosened up on it's own and my wife can now release it one handed.. or she just changed her attitude toward it... I told her to get mean.. :) hope that helps, I 'll let ya know how it goes, we're going to the range tonite for Date nite, her choice.. it'll be the 3rd time shooting it ..
Seriously, just try shooting the piss out of it. Mine was the same way, and it ended up being a self-solving thing; noticeable difference within 200 rounds, significant difference by 4-600. I tend to use the release for slidelock reloads because that's what I defaulted to under stress in spite of loads time being taught to only manipulate the slide to let it go into battery, but for the first 200 rounds or so, I just went for the slide immediately. It worked itself out.
I'm beyond 1550 rounds, and while it's still stiffer than my .45 with just under 5000 rounds through it, it's no impediment to operation in any way. My litmus test is that it's okay if any of several >5'2" chick pals can work the slide release. Frighteningly unscientific...
I have yet to experience the "auto-forwarding slide" phenomenon with the 9c that I did with the .45 at the same round count, which I sorta attribute to the more positive set of the slide stop without having any real idea if I'm fulla crap or not. It could just be that having to move my weapon-hand pinky out of the way to reload changes the mechanics of the reloading motion enough that it just doesn't do it.
Anybody else having a similar experiences in that regard, with the compact models?
Yes,
My 9c rarely ever auto forwards whereas all of my full size weapons do it 99% of the time.
oNE THING SHE CAN TRY IS TO PULL THE RACK BACK WITH ONE HAND WHILE HOLDING THE GUN IN THE OTHER HAND AND RELEASE THE BUTTON WHILE THE PRESSURE IS OFF..
What specific function with the pistol are you trying to achieve?
I ask this because of your above quote.
If she is attempting to load the pistol, then there is absolutely no need for her (or you) to hold the slide stop lever down while charging the slide via the over hand "Power Stroke" method. If you insert a loaded magazine into the pistol with the slide locked back, then all she needs to do is grab over the top of the slide and aggressively pull it fully to the rear and release. *DO NOT ride the slide forward with your hand. Just RIP it fully to the rear and release. Again, using this technique, there is no need to hold down the slide stop lever.
If you are attempting to practice loading your pistol with an empty magazine, then the slide wont release forward due to the magazine follower pushing up against the slide stop lever by design. Thats just how the pistol works.
The "Power Stroke" technique is taught/used by many instructors in-place of using the slide stop lever to release the slide forward. If using the slide stop lever doesn't work for your wife, then she should use the "Power Stroke" method.
Any feedback you have fellas on what round count it will not autoforward easily. To better put it has anyone noticed that there has to be a certain number of rounds in the magazine for the slide to easily and reliably auto forward. I went to my local instructors range last Sunday and ran about 500 rounds through it. I was doing tactical reloads during drills and noticed that after I had cycled all of my mags through the gun that the slide would not go forward reliably. Of course none of the mags were full and I found out that I needed to have about 9+ rounds for the autoforward (how many times have I said that word now?!) 'Feature' to work reliably. I can still do it but much more force is needed. I think Magsz said he ghosts his hand over the slide if it does it or not. I am doing the same technique as well. Anyone have a different experience?
And to be clear about my question above, my M&P is a full size 9mm.
Jax,
Im no gunfighter or go fast dude so keep this in mind when i say this.
I will run my hand or ghost it over the slide ONLY if i believe for whatever reason that the slide did not auto forward. The gun is faster than i am so IF that slide isnt going into battery i can always pinch at the last minute and power stroke. Let me know if this makes sense.
Its not something i will automatically do every time i do a slide lock reload. Be the master of your weapon system, run it as it needs to be run, you are in control.
Also, there is no magic number in regards to a round count before your gun will auto forward 99% of the time. All of my full size weapons have done this since day one but again, as i mentioned earlier my friends make fun of me because i "hulk" my mags into the magwell on reloads.
Gotcha man and yes I do understand the description of your technique. Sorry about the misquote. My m&p is the first pistol that I have owned that does this consistently.My 1911s do it but not nearly as much and I am trying to incorporate this technique to make me faster on reloads. BUT I've got to practice at it and know when to powerstroke the gun without hesitation.
Jax,
Im no gunfighter or go fast dude so keep this in mind when i say this.
I will run my hand or ghost it over the slide ONLY if i believe for whatever reason that the slide did not auto forward. The gun is faster than i am so IF that slide isnt going into battery i can always pinch at the last minute and power stroke. Let me know if this makes sense.
Its not something i will automatically do every time i do a slide lock reload. Be the master of your weapon system, run it as it needs to be run, you are in control.
Also, there is no magic number in regards to a round count before your gun will auto forward 99% of the time. All of my full size weapons have done this since day one but again, as i mentioned earlier my friends make fun of me because i "hulk" my mags into the magwell on reloads.
Jax,
I have some cheezoid video of me reloading. If i can ever figure out a way to rotate it i will go ahead and see if i can post it here or in a separate thread to give you an idea of how much pressure im applying on my reloads and also the angle of the dangle, ie the angle of the grip upon insertion of the mags into the firearm.
No promises, im a techtard.
That'd be great Magsz. You aren't the only one who can't work a 'kompuder' very well!! Hope you figure it out. Any help would be great. When it comes to guns I am like a sponge. I soak up everything! Thanks man!
-Jax
I would advise that you first practice doing "auto-forward" reloads with not just training/ball ammo, but also with your preferred carry ammo before you consider it a "feature".
I have found that approximately 30-50% of the times that I induce a "auto-forward" during my speed reloads with hollow-point carry ammo, I also end up with a nasty stoppage which is caused by the first round getting lodged up against the bottom of the feedramp. It needs to be cleared with remedial action similar to a double-feed.
Basically what happens is that when the magazine is slammed into the magwell, the top round gets jarred loose and gets stuck under the feedramp.
I have tried out several different duty/carry loads in my two M&P9 FS pistols, and both have nearly identical stoppage results (30-50%). One is a 2007 production LE gun, and the other is a brand-new 2010 production LE gun.
The stoppage does NOT occur with any ball ammo I have tried.
I would advise that you first practice doing "auto-forward" reloads with not just training/ball ammo, but also with your preferred carry ammo before you consider it a "feature".
I have found that approximately 30-50% of the times that I induce a "auto-forward" during my speed reloads with hollow-point carry ammo, I also end up with a nasty stoppage which is caused by the first round getting lodged up against the bottom of the feedramp. It needs to be cleared with remedial action similar to a double-feed.
Basically what happens is that when the magazine is slammed into the magwell, the top round gets jarred loose and gets stuck under the feedramp.
I have tried out several different duty/carry loads in my two M&P9 FS pistols, and both have nearly identical stoppage results (30-50%). One is a 2007 production LE gun, and the other is a brand-new 2010 production LE gun.
The stoppage does NOT occur with any ball ammo I have tried.
My M&P does the same thing with Speer Gold Dots. Because of this, I try to avoid having the pistol auto release the slide stop. It doesn't work all the time anyway, even at the "correct" angle, so I don't slam the mag in and instead manipulate the slide stop to release the slide.
Yes,
My 9c rarely ever auto forwards whereas all of my full size weapons do it 99% of the time.
Eh Mags, think I figured out why the 9c rarely does it. The grip is too small to get a good grip and slam the mag in. Shot the 9c last nite and got it to auto forward everytime. Just had to take the time to get a good grip before slamming it... same goes for my brandy new 45, AF everytime when I tried to do it. Just need to slam it.. like your hitting Nancy Pelosi in the face... I stole that line.. :cool:
What specific function with the pistol are you trying to achieve?
I ask this because of your above quote.
trying to release the upper half with the mag installed and no bullets in it..
If she is attempting to load the pistol, then there is absolutely no need for her (or you) to hold the slide stop lever down while charging the slide via the over hand "Power Stroke" method. If you insert a loaded magazine into the pistol with the slide locked back, then all she needs to do is grab over the top of the slide and aggressively pull it fully to the rear and release. *DO NOT ride the slide forward with your hand. Just RIP it fully to the rear and release. Again, using this technique, there is no need to hold down the slide stop lever.
correctomondo....
If you are attempting to practice loading your pistol with an empty magazine, then the slide wont release forward due to the magazine follower pushing up against the slide stop lever by design. Thats just how the pistol works.
gots to differ there, yes it does release.... if you push the release button. But as you stated before, it won't release if you try racking the slide.. :)
The "Power Stroke" technique is taught/used by many instructors in-place of using the slide stop lever to release the slide forward. If using the slide stop lever doesn't work for your wife, then she should use the "Power Stroke" method.
You are right on here, thank you. I watched my wife when she was loading last nite and she was pushing the button. I stopped her and showed her the PS method, she likes it... thanks, she was so used to practicing with an unloaded mag, didn't realize how much easier PS is.
You are right on here, thank you. I watched my wife when she was loading last nite and she was pushing the button. I stopped her and showed her the PS method, she likes it... thanks, she was so used to practicing with an unloaded mag, didn't realize how much easier PS is.
If you don't already have them, get some snap-caps or dummy rounds to practice doing the reloads with. PM inbound with a quick video I did on pistol loading/reloading.
Well I ran a qualifications course last night at our indoor range and ran into feeding issues with my M&P 40. Just to be clear it has the action package on it as performed by S&W themselves. Out of almost 300 rounds last night, I had roughly 5 FTF. This occurred on the last round in the mag and strangely enough sometimes the second to last round in the mag. Tap, rack...
The malfs occurred at least once with my 3 magazines.
I called S&W just now and spoke to a gentleman named Jeff. He wasn't aware of any mag issues. I even asked about any updated mag followers for the 40 and he said there were none. :confused:
His reply was to clean the mags out. Although it sounds like an easy solution, my mags were spotless to begin with. And no I wasn't limp wristing. This was with 2 handed shooting with an X300 attached. Ammo was Speer Lawman FMJ.
I swore I saw revised mag followers online somewhere (pics).
What say you?
Thanks for the advice nickdrak. I'll start experimenting with different loads.
I would advise that you first practice doing "auto-forward" reloads with not just training/ball ammo, but also with your preferred carry ammo before you consider it a "feature".
I have found that approximately 30-50% of the times that I induce a "auto-forward" during my speed reloads with hollow-point carry ammo, I also end up with a nasty stoppage which is caused by the first round getting lodged up against the bottom of the feedramp. It needs to be cleared with remedial action similar to a double-feed.
Basically what happens is that when the magazine is slammed into the magwell, the top round gets jarred loose and gets stuck under the feedramp.
I have tried out several different duty/carry loads in my two M&P9 FS pistols, and both have nearly identical stoppage results (30-50%). One is a 2007 production LE gun, and the other is a brand-new 2010 production LE gun.
The stoppage does NOT occur with any ball ammo I have tried.
If I am not mistaken the current 40 m&p is on it third generation followers just like the 9. I think I read somewhere that the older followers had issues with the last round not being centered properly.
Well I ran a qualifications course last night at our indoor range and ran into feeding issues with my M&P 40. Just to be clear it has the action package on it as performed by S&W themselves. Out of almost 300 rounds last night, I had roughly 5 FTF. This occurred on the last round in the mag and strangely enough sometimes the second to last round in the mag. Tap, rack...
The malfs occurred at least once with my 3 magazines.
I called S&W just now and spoke to a gentleman named Jeff. He wasn't aware of any mag issues. I even asked about any updated mag followers for the 40 and he said there were none. :confused:
His reply was to clean the mags out. Although it sounds like an easy solution, my mags were spotless to begin with. And no I wasn't limp wristing. This was with 2 handed shooting with an X300 attached. Ammo was Speer Lawman FMJ.
I swore I saw revised mag followers online somewhere (pics).
What say you?
If you don't already have them, get some snap-caps or dummy rounds to practice doing the reloads with. PM inbound with a quick video I did on pistol loading/reloading.
O Kewl.... thanks, that'll be my first PM!!! There's my excuse to go up to S&W Retail store today...snap caps. My wife and I both need as much help as we can get. I almost had a blister last nite on my trigger finger from shooting my new M&P 45 with the 10lb trigger... after 90 rounds, I felt it coming and had to stop shooting. But I sure had fun, APEC trigger kits on order. She shot 300rds with her M&P15-22, she was having so much fun she was giddy.. then she shot about 25 with her M&P 9c I gotta get me another one of those M&P15-22's... what a great gun.!!!! it's been flawless with good ammo.
If I am not mistaken the current 40 m&p is on it third generation followers just like the 9. I think I read somewhere that the older followers had issues with the last round not being centered properly.
My M&P was purchased in Aug or Sept of 2009. I can't remember. MRM prefix and has roughly 1K rounds of various ammo. The problem reared it's ugly head for the first time last night.
They aren't as bulletproof as 9mm Glocks, but few machines on earth actually are.
I used to use an M&P .45 for bowling pins and steel. I'm a dry fire maniac and broke one striker after another. I switched to a Glock 21FS for steel because all I have to do is a minor amount of trigger work and Warren sights and I'm good to go. M&P .45 I need all the Apex parts, new sights, and still be concerned about breaking something. I have had Glock 21's for years and never had any issues of any kind. I would like to get another M&P .45 because I have never had any .45 that i could shoot as quickly and accurately but this thread is giving me pause. I was under the impression most of the issues had been worked out. Now I'm not so sure. If I wanted to mess around with a pistol I would go back to 1911's.
John_Wayne777
05-22-10, 10:39
You have to remember the intention of the thread...to document some problems seen with what is becoming a very popular handgun. The most serious systemic problem the M&P has are:
1. Strikers breaking due to dryfire
2. Potential FTX issues on the 9mm guns with brands of ammo that have smaller than usual case rims. (WWB, prominently)
Now you have experienced problem number 1....but were you using snap caps?
There seems to be the idea floating around out there that a gun should be able to sustain a lifetime of 200 dryfires a day without any problems...and that's just not true of practically any handgun on the market. In a class with Ken Hackathorn last October we spent probably 20 minutes talking about dryfire and the number of problems it causes. Ken even listed a number of details you can find on different pistols (like the recessed firing pin hole you can find on 1911's and Beretta 92's as well as other guns) to try and deal with problems resulting from dryfire. In various threads on M4C we have people who worked major LE and military contracts for gun companies who have reported the specific ways that dryfire tended to break guns from Beretta, the pre-kimber management Sig-Sauer, etc.
S&W has introduced new strikers that handle larger amounts of dryfire. The latest generation has been tested to some obscenely high number of dryfire cycles without breakage. It's also important to note that I've yet to see any credible evidence of an M&P striker that broke under live fire...meaning that it's not likely to break on you while you're actually sending rounds downrange at the range, at the match, or in the gunfight.
I view the striker thing as fairly minor because I've broken half a dozen firearms with dryfire by this point. Enough dryfire will break any gun. Glocks seem to tolerate dryfire better than most other weapons on the market, but I've seen Glocks with cracked breech-faces and even a Glock where a cookie-cutter hole was punched out of the breechface. Do enough dryfire and you can even break a Glock. The simple answer here for the guy who dryfires a lot is something I've said many times: Snapcaps are cheap insurance. If you want to be sure your guns work...no matter what type of weapon it is...use a good snapcap like the AZoom. Now the "cheap insurance" part of that isn't really mine...It's been said before by a number of dudes much smarter than me, including some M4C SME's/IPs.
Now I've experienced issue number 2...but in exactly two instances out of around 17,000 9mm rounds downrange in 9mm M&Ps. The two instances happened on different guns but with the same ammo...Winchester White Box. I've never had so much as a hiccup from any other type of ammo. Given that we know the root cause of the problem and that it's well documented...and that I've not seen similar reports with any duty ammo...it's a fairly minor issue.
The failures to reset have largely been the result of screwing around with the fire control mechanism in some way. The way the trigger bar functions on the M&P leaves it more vulnerable to reset issues than a Glock, but the overwhelming majority of reset issues I know about have happened on guns where there was some alteration to the original factory setup that was made chasing more desirable trigger characteristics...which really aren't necessary.
I've tried just about every trigger arrangement you can get on an M&P from a full-on custom job done by Dan Burwell to the drop-in Apex kit...but I could shoot my bone stock guns every bit as well as those with the customized trigger. I sometimes did the yuk face because of an indistinct reset, but on the target and on the clock there wasn't really any significant difference in performance. The nicer trigger characteristics are nice...no question. They are simply not necessary.
If we were to document all the problems Glock has had over the years it would be a long thread. (With a lot of hurt feelings) Even the 9mm Glocks, the guns that in general stand a level above everybody else in the reliability and durability department, have had some serious issues. At one point the NYPD actually put out a request for bid for new guns because of the famous phase III malfunctions they were seeing with their G19s.
The key here is to take what's been presented in this thread in context. There are people here like Beat_Trash, NCPatrolAR, JFreuler and others who work in departments where literally thousands of M&P's are on the street performing as expected. The M&P is currently a candidate in pistol trials being conducted by some large agencies and there doesn't seem to be reports of unsatisfactory performance trickling out about them like there are for some other pistols. I've never heard the phrase "they ran out of incident reports" used in conjunction with the M&P.
If you walk into a gunstore and see an M&P beside a G17 and you wonder which is going to be most likely to run flawlessly out of the box and let you do anything you can conceive of to it without much complaint, the answer will be the G17...but by how great a margin? Given what info we have about the M&P's performance in police issue numbers the margin probably wouldn't be as large as you might think.
Well. Ok. Good information as usual. No, I don't use snap caps. Never have. I'm in a gun buying mood so think I'll go pick up an M&P 45 today and order some Warrens. Shoot it for a couple months and go from there. My wife is driving me crazy anyway with painters and contractors all over the house and I need to go shoot something to clear my head.
Littlelebowski
05-22-10, 11:37
Well. Ok. Good information as usual. No, I don't use snap caps. Never have. I'm in a gun buying mood so think I'll go pick up an M&P 45 today and order some Warrens. Shoot it for a couple months and go from there. My wife is driving me crazy anyway with painters and contractors all over the house and I need to go shoot something to clear my head.
Send those G17s over so they don't rust from lack of use :D
JW777--Superb comments and exactly in concordance with what we have seen.
Send those G17s over so they don't rust from lack of use :D
Don't worry. I'm wearing them out getting ready for Todd Greens class plus Gunsite and Thunder Ranch this year. I went out to probably buy an M&P .45 this morning but decided not to after molesting one. Probably will try a Gen 4 22 for steel and pins. Just used to using a .45 for that.
Littlelebowski
05-22-10, 15:19
Got a buddy with the Gen4 G22 - 2 counting my buddy gotm4. Both are happy with them.
RogerinTPA
05-22-10, 20:02
Knocked off my right side ambi slide release on my M&P9, mid stream into the VTAC 1.5 pistol course (Lakeland, FL, which is mucho excellent by the way) this weekend during the many many shooting drills. Which turned into a minor inconvenience when doing support side only shooting and reloading, without the assistance of the strong hand. Not surprised though, when I used a different holster than the one I'm used to and given the overwhelming majority of the drills start from the holster.
JW777, good post and am sure glad I didn't say the exact same thing. ;)
C4
. The M&P is currently a candidate in pistol trials being conducted by some large agencies and there doesn't seem to be reports of unsatisfactory performance trickling out about them like there are for some other pistols.
JW777 - is it your sense that most of these LE pistols are .40s? And does the .40 exhibit the fewest issues? I'm getting that impression.
For those of you that like to dry fire your M&P (without snap caps), we just received a batch of 9mm/40/357 and 45 GEN 5 Striker Assemblies.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=39526
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/9mm_Striker_Assembly.jpg
Assy Mcgee
05-23-10, 15:15
For those of you that like to dry fire your M&P (without snap caps), we just received a batch of 9mm/40/357 and 45 GEN 5 Striker Assemblies.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=39526
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/9mm_Striker_Assembly.jpg
s&w will send you that for free. is this one polished or something?
s&w will send you that for free. is this one polished or something?
To my knowledge, they will not unless yours is broken.
It is also nice to have spares because if you gun goes down, who wants to wait 2-3 weeks (or more) to get one?
No on being polished. It is straight from the factory.
C4
G34Shooter
05-23-10, 15:35
S&W finally delivered my striker assembly yesterday, now I'm going to install it today when I strip this sucker and clean it :cool:
How hard are those strikers to install? I've got a MPA3XXX serial number 40 that I'm thinking about updating a few internal parts in.
Does G&R have a kit for doing something like that? not the APEX parts, I've got a few thousand through the gun and the trigger is nice and smooth.
MarshallDodge
05-23-10, 16:33
For those of you that like to dry fire your M&P (without snap caps), we just received a batch of 9mm/40/357 and 45 GEN 5 Striker Assemblies.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=39526
C4
Just placed an order for one.
My first and only experience with S&W customer service was not pleasant. :(
Just an update on my failure to reset issue.
Grant tweaked something at our PA/WV/OH get together on my M&P 9 PT.com pistol, and the subsequent 1200 rounds have been satisfactory. (Grant, you may want to expound, but I don't want to give out bad info)
I still am waiting for the mushy no bang trigger, but is has not returned as of yet. So far, so good.
G34Shooter
05-23-10, 17:16
How hard are those strikers to install? I've got a MPA3XXX serial number 40 that I'm thinking about updating a few internal parts in.
Does G&R have a kit for doing something like that? not the APEX parts, I've got a few thousand through the gun and the trigger is nice and smooth.
The striker is cake and I'd still recommend the Apex DCAEK over a broken in stock trigger for a positive reset and less overtravel.
How hard are those strikers to install? I've got a MPA3XXX serial number 40 that I'm thinking about updating a few internal parts in.
You could literally install it in about 30 seconds. All you need to do is:
remove the slide from the frame
I am pretty sure you need to push down on the striker block to push the sleeve forward. I don't remember if this was necessary. If the striker sleeve won't budge in the next step, this is why :p Hold it down with your right thumb if you have to do it
use the tip of a thin allen wrench or a thin rod and pull the round plastic sleeve of the striker toward the muzzle, this releases tension on the end cap at the rear of the slide so you can remove the assembly
hold the slide up side down and the cap will fall out
release tension and the striker assembly will slide out
slide in new striker
repeat the step using the allen wrench and push the sleeve toward the muzzle on the new striker
replace end cap
release tension on the striker and it will lock itself back into the end cap
You can see this guy do it with a Glock in this video after the 1:00 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VTIqAMPOco
How hard are those strikers to install? I've got a MPA3XXX serial number 40 that I'm thinking about updating a few internal parts in.
Does G&R have a kit for doing something like that? not the APEX parts, I've got a few thousand through the gun and the trigger is nice and smooth.
Easy. You push down on the Striker and pull out the back tab. Depress the Striker Block and it comes right out.
C4
Looks easy enough, I purchased a new striker assembly as I know I have several years and many shots fired on the one installed as well as quite a bit of dry firing.
Are the APEX parts really that much better? trigger pull wise? would you install them in a carry gun instead of the factory parts?
G34Shooter
05-23-10, 19:18
Looks easy enough, I purchased a new striker assembly as I know I have several years and many shots fired on the one installed as well as quite a bit of dry firing.
Are the APEX parts really that much better? trigger pull wise? would you install them in a carry gun instead of the factory parts?
Absolutely!!!
Looks easy enough, I purchased a new striker assembly as I know I have several years and many shots fired on the one installed as well as quite a bit of dry firing.
Are the APEX parts really that much better? trigger pull wise? would you install them in a carry gun instead of the factory parts?
The Apex components are fantastic and GREATLY improve the trigger pull.
C4
How are they that big of an improvement? i.e. what will improve based on their installation.
It's a "plastic gun" trigger so I wasn't expecting anything great in the first place, I'll install them if there is a real reason that I will be able to precieve.
I don't run 10's of thousands of rounds a year down range and I have what I think of as "good" triggers on my 1911's, both Kimber's tuned in their shop. Do the parts shorten the pull or what? make the break crisper? I'm very curious.
For ~$70 it's not a huge deal, how hard are they to install completely? The trigger return spring looks like the biggest pain to me to install. 30 minutes of work?
Took me about a little under an hour to do the DCAEK for mine. Guess I am a little slower than most!! The DCAEK (Duty Carry Action Enhancement Kit) includes a new trigger and sear spring,sear, and striker block. For more info go to apex tactical or visit Grant's GandR Tactical website. If you would like to know what is involved in installing this kit get on YouTube and type in Apex Tactical. There is a 2 part series on putting it in. Both are done by Randy Lee of apex and last about 9 minutes each.
How are they that big of an improvement? i.e. what will improve based on their installation.
It's a "plastic gun" trigger so I wasn't expecting anything great in the first place, I'll install them if there is a real reason that I will be able to precieve.
I don't run 10's of thousands of rounds a year down range and I have what I think of as "good" triggers on my 1911's, both Kimber's tuned in their shop. Do the parts shorten the pull or what? make the break crisper? I'm very curious.
For ~$70 it's not a huge deal, how hard are they to install completely? The trigger return spring looks like the biggest pain to me to install. 30 minutes of work?
Smoother trigger pull and a lot less overtravel and a shorter reset.
G34Shooter
05-23-10, 20:45
How are they that big of an improvement? i.e. what will improve based on their installation.
It's a "plastic gun" trigger so I wasn't expecting anything great in the first place, I'll install them if there is a real reason that I will be able to precieve.
I don't run 10's of thousands of rounds a year down range and I have what I think of as "good" triggers on my 1911's, both Kimber's tuned in their shop. Do the parts shorten the pull or what? make the break crisper? I'm very curious.
For ~$70 it's not a huge deal, how hard are they to install completely? The trigger return spring looks like the biggest pain to me to install. 30 minutes of work?
1 page back:
The striker is cake and I'd still recommend the Apex DCAEK over a broken in stock trigger for a positive reset and less overtravel.
And if that doesn't convince you, here's 37 pages for you to sort through:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=43713
and 52 here:
http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=23455
http://www.thetacticalwire.com/archived/2010-04-22_tactical.html
Editor's Notebook: Apex Tactical and the M&P Pistol
by Rich Grassi
Back in February, I was contacted about checking into a new sear for the S&W M&P pistol. The contact was made by an industry insider who knew of my affinity for the S&W pistol. Apparently, Randy Lee, an engineer and gun tinkerer, had devised a better mousetrap.
I got to speak with him once by phone and he spoke of his Hard Sear and how it improved the trigger on the M&P. What's wrong with the M&P trigger? Well, nothing if you don't train to "hit the link." The lack of a hard reset slows some of us though. Besides the trigger is long and, in some examples, not all it could be. That said, the stock M&P pistol normally has a trigger that's "good enough." The cardboard and steel shooters aren't always fond of it, but it's a protection gun by design. The M&P samples I have and those I've used, I'd trust (and have trusted) with my life.
Randy also mentioned his striker block (firing pin safety plunger) that was to help make the trigger better. He was going to wait until one was available to send before he sent anything.
Then a flurry of activity hit the old homestead and a number of things happened. Just last week, I saw that the small envelope from Apex Tactical had arrived - and apparently been here some time. The M&P manual, gun and parts were loaded up and a trip to see Mike Rafferty was undertaken.
An armorer of high reputation and years of experience, Mike took a look at the gear and then set about to get started. Then he stopped.
"We didn't measure the pull weight first," he said. The gun went back together quickly.
Our test bed wasn't the best - an older M&P40, one of the first of the production, this sample had a decent service trigger from the outset. I'd been carrying it for a few months, on and off, getting used to it again. I'd taken it on a few range excursions, the objects of which were carbines - but a range is a range. So I'd strap on the M&P40 and do fifty or a hundred rounds, just to solidify the dry practice.
I brought the Timney trigger pull gauge and the average of tries on the older M&P40 was just over six pounds. Mike said, "Six pounds with a hard spot."
He first installed the striker block, reassembled the gun and tried the trigger. "Not a significant change."
It was apparent that the striker block was designed to work along with the sear.
Made of heat treated 17-4 ph stainless steel and mirror polished to make it slick, the striker safety plunger is a high quality part. A spring was in the bag with the plunger. Mike asked if I wanted to use it.
Yep. It's a reduced power plunger spring. It's enough to ensure that the striker is locked until the trigger is pulled, but it's light enough that it reduces drag and is more easily pushed up out of the way.
The sear was designed and fabricated to allow an apparent reset and to cut over-travel. A dramatic reduction in trigger pull weight is a common phenomenon as well. The Apex Hard Sear is made from heat treated A-2 tool steel to ensure long life.
After futzing with the sear block and trying to get it all back together - I'm so glad he was doing it - the gun was back together. He tried it once and gave me "the look."
"He didn't happen to mention a price, did he," Mike asked referring to my phone conference with Randy Lee. Mike happened to have custody of an M&P45 in serious need of remediation.
"What's the weight," I asked. He handed me the gun. The pull actually felt a little light for my liking but it was a solid trigger - not spongy or abrupt. There's a long take-up followed by a "pop" (the striker going home). Holding the trigger back while running the slide, I let out the trigger slowly. At about 3/8" of travel, the trigger snaps as it resets. A little take-up and you feel the resistance. Press through and "pop."
According to the Timney Trigger Pull Gauge, the average pull is now around four pounds. It's quite a change - and this on a gun with an eminently serviceable trigger as it was!
The Apex Hard Sear fits the M&P9 (40, 357) only, not the M&P45. Randy recommends the use of a pistolsmith or armorer for the installation - he's right!
Since this project, Randy has come out with a "Duty/Carry Action Enhancement Kit" for the standard size M&P (40, etc.) and for the M&P45. This promises a pull weight of 5-5 ½ pounds that's smooth and consistent. I wish I'd have waited for that. I have an M&P9 as well as an M&P45 - the 45 could definitely use the help.
For more information, check Randy Lee's website at http://www.apextactical.com. And, if you have an M&P pistol, I can recommend his parts.
How are they that big of an improvement? i.e. what will improve based on their installation.
It's a "plastic gun" trigger so I wasn't expecting anything great in the first place, I'll install them if there is a real reason that I will be able to precieve.
I don't run 10's of thousands of rounds a year down range and I have what I think of as "good" triggers on my 1911's, both Kimber's tuned in their shop. Do the parts shorten the pull or what? make the break crisper? I'm very curious.
For ~$70 it's not a huge deal, how hard are they to install completely? The trigger return spring looks like the biggest pain to me to install. 30 minutes of work?
Did you happen to read the Apex Tactical thread yet?
If not, it will answer all your questions and concerns.
C4
Just FYI if you're looking to get new .40 mag followers for problematic magazines as a possible fix.. The followers I ordered from Midway are the newer variety marked "40".
My call to S&W said that the followers were never updated. Umm okay. This was highlighted in an earlier post on here.
John_Wayne777
05-27-10, 21:13
Failure to reset. Sometimes the trigger bar may need to be tweaked to work with a trigger system modification. Because of variability in the tolerances for the trigger bars it's sometimes difficult to have a drop in trigger job on some specimens of M&P. I've encountered it myself. I'm shipping my 9C off to Grant so he can take a look at it.
Just as an update to this situation, my 9C arrived back from Grant's today. He found that some internal parts were not set up properly, partially because of the neutered mag safety, and partially because I had a retarded moment and installed the Massachusetts trigger spring in upside down. This, folks, is why you don't attempt to re-assemble a handgun in a hurry while you are on the phone and getting yelled at by the family.
Anyhoo, he did a full on trigger job on the gun using the Apex parts and now the reset issues are g-o-n-e. The trigger pull is now relatively light, crisp, and has a distinct click reset. The massachussets spring makes for a positive and fast reset so the gun can be run extremely fast. How fast? Well...I'm going to have to hit the range tomorrow night with the timer to figure that out.
So if you're looking to buy an M&P and you want an improved trigger, my advice would be to buy the gun and the Apex kit from Grant and let him do the trigger job. I think most will like the end result.
Just as an update to this situation, my 9C arrived back from Grant's today. He found that some internal parts were not set up properly, partially because of the neutered mag safety, and partially because I had a retarded moment and installed the Massachusetts trigger spring in upside down. This, folks, is why you don't attempt to re-assemble a handgun in a hurry while you are on the phone and getting yelled at by the family.
Anyhoo, he did a full on trigger job on the gun using the Apex parts and now the reset issues are g-o-n-e. The trigger pull is now relatively light, crisp, and has a distinct click reset. The massachussets spring makes for a positive and fast reset so the gun can be run extremely fast. How fast? Well...I'm going to have to hit the range tomorrow night with the timer to figure that out.
So if you're looking to buy an M&P and you want an improved trigger, my advice would be to buy the gun and the Apex kit from Grant and let him do the trigger job. I think most will like the end result.
Cool, glad you got it back ok.
Your compact runs like a screen door in a hurricane. I was shocked at how fast I could drive it with full sized mags.
Enjoy.
C4
S&W finally delivered my striker assembly yesterday, now I'm going to install it today when I strip this sucker and clean it :cool:
Was it the new assembly shown above?
G34Shooter
05-28-10, 22:05
yes :D
I have an issue with my M&P 9 and am looking for some advice. My gun is failing to go into battery with 2 different types of defense ammo (the nose of the round sticks on the feed ramp). The first time I noticed it was when I bought a box of 147gr Winchester T-Series. Many times they would not chamber while using the slide release or while manually racking the slide. I put some Hydra-Shocks back in it and it worked fine for a while (I just thought something about the T Series bullet didn't mesh well) but now it is doing the same thing with the Hydra-Shocks. It does have a DPM guide rod but nothing changes when I put the factory spring back in it or use the stronger DPM spring. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
thopkins22
06-03-10, 10:58
I have an issue with my M&P 9 and am looking for some advice.
Call S&W.;)
I have an issue with my M&P 9 and am looking for some advice. My gun is failing to go into battery with 2 different types of defense ammo (the nose of the round sticks on the feed ramp). The first time I noticed it was when I bought a box of 147gr Winchester T-Series. Many times they would not chamber while using the slide release or while manually racking the slide. I put some Hydra-Shocks back in it and it worked fine for a while (I just thought something about the T Series bullet didn't mesh well) but now it is doing the same thing with the Hydra-Shocks. It does have a DPM guide rod but nothing changes when I put the factory spring back in it or use the stronger DPM spring. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Remember that a lot of defensive ammo has a longer OAL than typical ball ammo. One thing you might want to check is the magazine followers; what color are they?
I have an issue with my M&P 9 and am looking for some advice. My gun is failing to go into battery with 2 different types of defense ammo (the nose of the round sticks on the feed ramp). The first time I noticed it was when I bought a box of 147gr Winchester T-Series.
I had the same thing happen when I had an M&P compact. Sent it back to the factory and they polished the feedramp. It worked better but still not 100%, so I wound up selling the gun. If that happened now I wound send it to David Bowie or someone who works on these guns, or send it back to the factory again or change ammo.
Remember that a lot of defensive ammo has a longer OAL than typical ball ammo. One thing you might want to check is the magazine followers; what color are they?
The magazine followers are a dark grey. Best I remember they were a lighter grey/off white when they were new. The test fire date was 12/1/06 if that makes a difference or the followers were changed at some point. The mag springs are also factory and have never been changed.
I had the same thing happen when I had an M&P compact. Sent it back to the factory and they polished the feedramp. It worked better but still not 100%, so I wound up selling the gun. If that happened now I wound send it to David Bowie or someone who works on these guns, or send it back to the factory again or change ammo.
I have wondered if polishing the feed ramp would be a possible solution. The ramp on my G17 was polished when the trigger job was done and it eats everything (of course it seemed to do that before the polishing). Does polishing the feed ramp and possibly new mag springs and followers sound like a possible solution?
Call S&W.;)
I might just end up resorting to that. :D
I'm curious about your sig line. Does that individual happen to own a large school or is that someone else?
I might just end up resorting to that. :D
I'm curious about your sig line. Does that individual happen to own a large school or is that someone else?
Thopkins22's sig line is from a jack ass internet commando claiming to be 173rd Airborne. Guess you had to be there.
Back on topic. How many rounds does your M&P 9 have through it?
It has approximately 3,000 rounds through it.
John_Wayne777
06-04-10, 08:02
Definitely call up S&W and have them look at it. The weapon should have no trouble feeding JHP ammo.
Thank you to everyone who responded. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. It seems that a call to S&W is in order.
keysersoze
06-08-10, 02:44
I also had an M&P that had a problem. It was the fullsized 9mm variant, and it would only cycle with Cor-Bon DPX and other like ammo. Comparison to Loner's M&P showed that my barrel was waaaay tighter than his; more material had to be cleared out to make it reliable. I tried to get my gunsmith to do it, but he couldn't due to lack of tools for the job. Eventually sold it at a loss (and the buyer knew all about its issues) and went back to using a Glock 34.
TheSmiter1
06-08-10, 17:28
I also had an M&P that had a problem. It was the fullsized 9mm variant, and it would only cycle with Cor-Bon DPX and other like ammo. Comparison to Loner's M&P showed that my barrel was waaaay tighter than his; more material had to be cleared out to make it reliable. I tried to get my gunsmith to do it, but he couldn't due to lack of tools for the job. Eventually sold it at a loss (and the buyer knew all about its issues) and went back to using a Glock 34.
A two week trip to the factory and back would have had your weapon running well again. Selling it at a loss seems a little rash to me. Next time try working it out with S&W. You wouldn't even have had to pay them, like you would have had to pay your gunsmith. You can't beat free quality repairs, which is one thing that S&W does very well.
Is there an easy way to discern if you have a gen 5 or not?
Is it the sights?
Is there an easy way to discern if you have a gen 5 or not?
Is it the sights?
Gen 5 refers to the striker... they're all silver, so they're easy to distinguish. As for the sights, the latest version is a stepped rear sight as pictured here:
G34Shooter
06-10-10, 22:48
Is there an easy way to discern if you have a gen 5 or not?
Is it the sights?
Gen 5 striker has an NP3 like coating compared to the old black ones.
Hardchrome
06-14-10, 20:45
Anyone have any rust issues with their M&P? I am having issues with the grip groves on the slide rusting.
Anyone have any rust issues with their M&P? I am having issues with the grip groves on the slide rusting.
In our humid weather when I touch the gun with nasty sweaty hands, yes... I need to wipe it down more often, thats all.
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