View Full Version : flash hider/brake choice for indoor HD?
As a civilian shooter, one of my main priorities is training and equipping for a a run-of-the-mill home defense scenario. This would seem to focus on shots taken indoors and/or on the homestead, probably in low light conditions. I live in Los Angeles County, CA. Shooting suppressed will never be an option for me. This will factor in later on.
I shoot regularly and try to train realistically (and with good folks like Dean Caputo or similar) but to be honest, I have modest real-world experience compared to many of you guys. I am wondering if I know enough about what I don't know, so to speak.
I am looking for a sanity check. I think that for my HD situation, one would want to try to mitigate flash, noise, and muzzle rise, pretty much in that order. Does that sound reasonable? With that in mind (assuming I am correct- any input is appreciated) and given my limitations wrt to access to a can, what options should I be considering for my rifle?
My HD rifle is equipped with a Vortex right now. It seems to do a good job dealing with flash. As noted above, I *think* that flash would be my main concern, but noise and muzzle/recoil control might also be factors. I am not aware of a CA-legal option that would help with noise. I think a brake might be useful but I don't have enough experience to know if there are good brakes that also do a good job minimizing flash. Is there such a thing? What about noise? I would guess that a brake would make noise worse, but I'd consider it if flash AND muzzle rise could be dealt with effectively.
Bottom line= looking to minimize flash, noise, and muzzle rise and a can is not an option. Should I stick with the Vortex, go with another flash hider, or is there a brake that will also help with the flash problem?
Thanks.
i would stick with the A2 flash hider. firing a brake inside an enclosed space is NOT enjoyable. whatever you choose try some quality ammo @ night and see what gives you the lowest flash.
i would stick with the A2 flash hider. firing a brake inside an enclosed space is NOT enjoyable. whatever you choose try some quality ammo @ night and see what gives you the lowest flash.
The A2 is better than the Vortex? The Vortex ranks pretty high up on the flash reduction scale.
The best flash hider for flash reduction is the AAC Blackout. Well, as far as I know, anyway. I'm pretty sure 87GN did a video review comparing the A2 to the Vortex, then the Vortex to the Blackout. The Blackout had the least amount of flash.
The like rychencop said, you do not want a muzzle brake for indoor use, unless you want to loose your hearing.
I would stick with the Vortex, and maybe upgrade later on to AAC when you get a can.
-Vic
The like rychencop said, you do not want a muzzle brake for indoor use, unless you want to loose your hearing.
-Vic
Haha! Probably true. Although I'd expect almost any discharge indoors w/o hearing protection (I doubt I'd have it in an emergency HD shooting) would be pretty bad for the ears.
The A2 is better than the Vortex? The Vortex ranks pretty high up on the flash reduction scale.
The best flash hider for flash reduction is the AAC Blackout. Well, as far as I know, anyway. I'm pretty sure 87GN did a video review comparing the A2 to the Vortex, then the Vortex to the Blackout. The Blackout had the least amount of flash.
The like rychencop said, you do not want a muzzle brake for indoor use, unless you want to loose your hearing.
I would stick with the Vortex, and maybe upgrade later on to AAC when you get a can.
-Vic
no...there are better FH's out there than the A2. i was just thinking about keeping it simple. i think that the blackout did the best in 87's tests.
Not familiar with CA. No cans, but are SBR's allowed?
I've been thinking about this for my up and coming HD gun setup. In my limited experience with muzzle devices, you have three features: flash suppression, recoil control, and sound mitigation. As best as I can tell, you can pick any two of the above three.
HomelessRDP
04-28-10, 19:04
I'd go with a kx3 everything goes away from, no chance of getting blinded in low light situations.
Belmont31R
04-28-10, 19:12
The only brake/comp I would consider firing indoors is the KAC Triple Tap but they are pretty spendy.
Anything else is going to rock your world inside. Even the PWS a lot of people are fond of has a pretty narly concussion even outdoors. The brake/flash hider combos still put out a big blast and flash.
I don't know why you would need a brake indoors anyways. The dot at room distances can't move more than a few inches per shot.
The only brake/comp I would consider firing indoors is the KAC Triple Tap but they are pretty spendy.
Anything else is going to rock your world inside. Even the PWS a lot of people are fond of has a pretty narly concussion even outdoors. The brake/flash hider combos still put out a big blast and flash.
I don't know why you would need a brake indoors anyways. The dot at room distances can't move more than a few inches per shot.
Given the size of my house (it's tiny) I don't know if I'd even be hard on the dot before pressing the trigger! I see your point and agree, but as a previous response noted, one might hope for covering 2 bases out of 3 with a judicious gear choice. :D
The KX3 thing seems intriguing. Does it work to direct sound downrange? Does it do a good job with flash?
Cagemonkey
04-28-10, 21:25
Troy's new claymore muzzle brake directs all blast forward and isn't as expensive and heavy as the KX3. I wouldn't expect it to have any flash suppressing performance.
RetreatHell
04-28-10, 22:37
Sound mitigation is a non-issue. It doesn't matter how loud it is, you ain't gonna hear shit if your adrenaline is pumping like crazy, which it will be if you're about to kill some ****er who just broke into your home. Trust me on this. It's the least important thing.
Flash can be a serious issue depending on how bad it is. When I shoot my triple tap brake using hotter ammo in the dark, every shot is so bright that it screws up my eyes... kind of like when you're standing in a dark rpom for several minutes, allowing your eyes to fully adjust, and then suddenly turning the light on for a split second and turning it back off. Pretty much the same effect.
However, you might want to try using the PWS FSC556 brake. Go out and do some shooting at night with whatever brake or FH you're interested in using for your HD carbine, and try all of your HD ammo as well as other ammo and see how bright they all are with whatever muzzle device you're using. That would be the best thing for you to do (if you can do it).
Anytime you can reduce your recoil it's a very good thing. But it's possible that no matter what ammo you try through whatever muzzle brake(s) you try out, the flash might be too unacceptable for you and your eyes at night/dark environments. So you might have to sacrifice the awesome recoil reductions brakes offer in order to not compromise your vision, which might possibly already be worse than usual if you've just woken up startled from a deep sleep. But not having the extra recoil reduction is definitely not a huge factor.
Like I said, I'd mainly be worried about a big, bright flash going off right in front of your face every time you pull the trigger.
BTW, the KX3 is designed for SBRs and it has horrible flash suppression (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrdojpFUp4c), although certain ammo is probably better than others. I would not recommend the KX3 for a 16" carbine.
Just my $.02 worth, YMMV.
The A2 is better than the Vortex? The Vortex ranks pretty high up on the flash reduction scale.
A2 is plenty good for HD. A wiser variable to attack is getting a good low flash home D round like Speer Gold Dot .223.
I run an 11.5" barrel with an A2 FH and Gold dots. But even when I've fired XM193 in low light, the A2 only kicked up a baseball sized flash.
Sound mitigation is a non-issue. It doesn't matter how loud it is, you ain't gonna hear shit if your adrenaline is pumping like crazy, which it will be if you're about to kill some ****er who just broke into your home. Trust me on this. It's the least important thing.
Amen. I get so tired of reading about people setting up their guns to minimize hearing damage. It's a totally goofed up prioritization mess.
May I ask why are you worried about flash indoors? Its not like its so bright that it would momentarily blind you, and you are obviously not hiding 100 yards away in a bush hoping the other guy wont see you. May be I missed something in training? I dunno, care to explain to me any advantage to decreasing the flash given by a standard A2 on an HD situation? And like said before, unless you care about waiking up your neighbors, yo dont have to worry about the noise you wont hear a thing, you may actually just hear very low pops.
ChicagoTex
04-29-10, 04:04
Amen. I get so tired of reading about people setting up their guns to minimize hearing damage. It's a totally goofed up prioritization mess.
It's a good tertiary goal, as auditory exclusion doesn't mitigate actual hearing damage, only the perception of noise.
Note that I said tertiary however; first and secondary priorities should be more immediate-function based (flash, recoil, snagging, whatever's applicable to your specific use).
It's a good tertiary goal, as auditory exclusion doesn't mitigate actual hearing damage, only the perception of noise.
Note that I said tertiary however; first and secondary priorities should be more immediate-function based (flash, recoil, snagging, whatever's applicable to your specific use).
This is pretty much where I am at. Flash is my #1, I think. I just want to know if I am missing out on gear that might do double duty wrt recoil and/or sound.
As to the value of noise reduction in a real-life situation- I admit I don't know what I don't know. See above. Still, I'd like to have that benefit if it's practical since it might be good to preserve some of my ability to hear my family members in such an unlikely scenario as an HD shooting. It might also be good if they could hear my commands as well. (note- it is my assumption, though, that short of shooting with a can, there is almost no way to avoid serious noise when shooting in a confined space)
May I ask why are you worried about flash indoors? Its not like its so bright that it would momentarily blind you...
That is comforting, I guess. I've done low-light shooting, and some night shooting outdoors. Never indoors, though, so I can't say that I _know_ that I might not have my vision effected in any way.
May be I missed something in training? I dunno, care to explain to me any advantage to decreasing the flash given by a standard A2 on an HD situation?
No, I can't say that I care to, since I am not sure that there is much of an advantage. I've shot with A2, Vortex, and plain crowned barrels. I was able to notice a difference in signature, but I guess it's moot if said flash is not going to effect my vision indoors at night..?
And like said before, unless you care about waiking up your neighbors, yo dont have to worry about the noise you wont hear a thing, you may actually just hear very low pops.
<response too short...>
Brakes suck indoors, especially in a team movement.
With or with out the brake carbines are loud.
The time I banged off two rounds from my M4 at work I never heard the gun go off.
I'm going to ask a question, and see if this doesn't address another issue.
I haven't shot in the dark alot... or at all now that I think about it, some hazy/dim indoor ranges, I wouldn't consider to count, or turning off the light in the range bay of a bay that's lit where the shooters are doesn't count, IMHO.
I would think the best thing you could do, to keep you eyes from getting all screwed up by adjusting and not adjusting, is put a light on the gun.
Now obviously you want to use some light discipline and not just go around the house with the light on, but I think if you've already illuminated the target (which isn't a bad idea by principle anyway, you're pointing a loaded gun around your house with possible family members there, you probably want to know just who you're pointing at, anyway)
With the light on, wouldn't the muzzle flash "flash effect" be greatly diminished? As there's already light on the target, it gives you a clear image/area of where to keep your vision focused after getting maybe disoriented by the muzzle blast, it'll help you focus, as well as not waiting for your night vision to readjust to see, no matter how bad it has adjusted, I think you'd be able to keep your sights on the target.
I mean even if you were using iron sights, it would allow you to see the outline of your sites, and if you have a red dot optic, you'll hopefully have the dot on bright enough to see them anyway.
I think ideally you'd squeeze a pressure switch, see the target, and blast away as they are illuminated by the light, and then release the light switch once the threat is gone.
Is my logic off here?
Ideally.
But I think taking shots at someone in the dark is just... Well... I can see being forced to do it (ETA: without a light), but, a flash light is a great idea on a home defense gun anyway.
I also think a Sound Suppressor would address a few of your issues, I'm of the persuasion I'm on the fence on whether or not I believe a lot of rifle sound suppressors are at consistently hearing safe DB Reduction numbers, but, they will bring it down dramatically, in doors, it might be above hearing safe. I've fired enough examples to have doubts.
I think a Light and Sound Suppressor would be the best for your home, probably an SBR too.
But, that's... $2-300 for the light, $700-1400 for the suppressor (Factoring in ATF Transfer taxes, different suppressor models and mounts) and probably $400-500 for an SBR (Taxes, different barrel, possibly smith work, etc.)
I'd try an light and a good flash hider first, IMHO.
The A2 is better than the Vortex? The Vortex ranks pretty high up on the flash reduction scale.
The best flash hider for flash reduction is the AAC Blackout. Well, as far as I know, anyway. I'm pretty sure 87GN did a video review comparing the A2 to the Vortex, then the Vortex to the Blackout. The Blackout had the least amount of flash.
The like rychencop said, you do not want a muzzle brake for indoor use, unless you want to loose your hearing.
I would stick with the Vortex, and maybe upgrade later on to AAC when you get a can.
-Vic
No it isn't. The Vortex is one of the best at killing flash.
C4
It's a good tertiary goal, as auditory exclusion doesn't mitigate actual hearing damage, only the perception of noise.
Grossman offers evidence to the contrary.
Jay Cunningham
04-29-10, 18:20
It's a good tertiary goal, as auditory exclusion doesn't mitigate actual hearing damage, only the perception of noise.
You would be mistaken.
May I ask why are you worried about flash indoors? Its not like its so bright that it would momentarily blind you, and you are obviously not hiding 100 yards away in a bush hoping the other guy wont see you. May be I missed something in training? I dunno, care to explain to me any advantage to decreasing the flash given by a standard A2 on an HD situation? And like said before, unless you care about waiking up your neighbors, yo dont have to worry about the noise you wont hear a thing, you may actually just hear very low pops.
You ever fired an AR with no flash hider in low light? Yeah an A2 will work fine in most cases, but you certainly need something that works.
I'd rather be a little deaf than tempoararily blinded in the situation the op is referring too.
ChicagoTex
04-29-10, 21:43
Grossman offers evidence to the contrary.
You would be mistaken.
Could either of you gentlemen please expound on this for me? I don't understand how adrenaline-based auditory exclusion can make your eardrums stronger.
The greater problem I see is that to use a FH, any FH, you will have to have either a registered AW or a bullet button and a 10rnd magazine. With a brake, you can have a featureless build and use detachable magazines and even your pre-ban high capacity mags. This really handicaps you if you are using an AR for HD. Well, unless you have a registered AW.
Robb Jensen
04-29-10, 22:00
I'd use my AAC Brakeout with a AAC M4-2000 mounted on it indoors, call me crazy.....
Jay Cunningham
04-29-10, 22:14
Could either of you gentlemen please expound on this for me? I don't understand how adrenaline-based auditory exclusion can make your eardrums stronger.
If you actually read the research, auditory exclusion is a physiological phenomenon.
RetreatHell
04-29-10, 22:42
I'd use my AAC Brakeout with a AAC M4-2000 mounted on it indoors, call me crazy.....
Well hell yeah, man, if ya got it!:p But the OP lives in Cali, so it's a no-go for him. But yeah, after shooting my BCM 11.5" with my new Surefire can mounted, I'd prefer that over anything else while shooting in my house (just because I have it, so why not?).
But if I didn't have a can, as most don't, I'd just go with a FH and a high quality weapon light and not worry about any loud bangs. JMHO.
ChicagoTex
04-29-10, 22:44
If you actually read the research, auditory exclusion is a physiological phenomenon.
I'm more than willing to read "the research" if I can find it, all my google-fu turned up was excerpts and synopses where Grossman acknowledges that auditory exclusion happens. I have been unable to find anything specifically highlighting the physiology OF auditory exclusion.
Otherwise everything I've found pretty much concurs with my understanding that auditory exclusion is a brain-filtering response. I did encounter one person's writing that claimed that physiological response in a fight-or-flight situation does relax the eardrum muscles some to make it more tolerant of extremely loud noises, but real hearing damage is still very much a possibility.
Don't get me wrong, I believe firing a few .223s indoors once or twice in your life without ear pro will do little if any noticeable damage, but it is theoretically possible and would therefore be wise to limit report as much as is conveniently doable.
Jay Cunningham
04-29-10, 22:55
I'm more than willing to read "the research" if I can find it, all my google-fu turned up was excerpts and synopses where Grossman acknowledges that auditory exclusion happens. I have been unable to find anything specifically highlighting the physiology OF auditory exclusion.
Otherwise everything I've found pretty much concurs with my understanding that auditory exclusion is a brain-filtering response. I did encounter one person's writing that claimed that physiological response in a fight-or-flight situation does relax the eardrum muscles some to make it more tolerant of extremely loud noises, but real hearing damage is still very much a possibility.
Don't get me wrong, I believe firing a few .223s indoors once or twice in your life without ear pro will do little if any noticeable damage, but it is theoretically possible and would therefore be wise to limit report as much as is conveniently doable.
If you PM me your addy and are willing to pay for shipping, I'll send you two books on the topic.
The greater problem I see is that to use a FH, any FH, you will have to have either a registered AW or a bullet button and a 10rnd magazine. With a brake, you can have a featureless build and use detachable magazines and even your pre-ban high capacity mags. This really handicaps you if you are using an AR for HD. Well, unless you have a registered AW.
I do.
You ever fired an AR with no flash hider in low light? Yeah an A2 will work fine in most cases, but you certainly need something that works.
Only the M16, which of course had an A2 flash hider, dint light up the whole room or anything, sure it was noticeable, but my light pretty much overpowered the flash.
Jay Cunningham
04-30-10, 08:10
It's been my experience that the A2 flash hider actually works quite well - especially since it's either free or about $8.00 brand new.
I'm with Katar on this. The A2 is continually underrated as a flash hider when it does a GREAT job especially given it's price point.
Some of the A2-style brakes suck though. The old Cav Arms comp looked almost exactly like an A2 but it threw hellacious flash since the end was closed in and it only had 3 ports, one of which went straight up through your sight picture.
I can't believe some people are recommending a Krink brake or the Triple Tap. Those damn things throw flash in the daylight!
Markm offers a very good point about selecting an ammunition with flash retardant. You'll go from a bright yellow flash to a dull red, which won't mess your eyes up nearly as badly.
BWT: your hypothesis that having a light on will minimize effects of muzzle flash is correct, but it's a bad idea. To get this affect, you basically have to run with your light on all the time. That is less than preferable in an environment (the dark) where stealth is always a factor. It's almost like yelling at the top of your lungs as you check out your house so the sound of the gunshot doesn't scare you into having a trigger snatch.
I'm in a ban state also and my carbines have perm attached surefire brakes. I cannot have a flash hider unless my lower is pre-ban (stupid, I know). Am I just screwed or will the flash from the Surefire not be that bad if my 6P is lighting up an the area the intruder is in? Hypothetical ofcourse. I don't have a chance to shoot in the dark to test this out myself.
I'm in a ban state also and my carbines have perm attached surefire brakes. I cannot have a flash hider unless my lower is pre-ban (stupid, I know). Am I just screwed or will the flash from the Surefire not be that bad if my 6P is lighting up an the area the intruder is in? Hypothetical ofcourse. I don't have a chance to shoot in the dark to test this out myself.
Another good twist on the original question, since I also have "post ban" lowers.
I'm in a ban state also and my carbines have perm attached surefire brakes. I cannot have a flash hider unless my lower is pre-ban (stupid, I know). Am I just screwed or will the flash from the Surefire not be that bad if my 6P is lighting up an the area the intruder is in? Hypothetical ofcourse. I don't have a chance to shoot in the dark to test this out myself.
I know I'm quoting my own question here but noone answered and I'd really like to know as other ban staters would too. This thread was sliding down the charts.
How about a set of Supreme Pros and a Vortex?
Can't exactly throw on some ear protection in a hurry. Has nothing to do with flash and I can't have a flash hider in NY without a pre-ban lower...which I don't.
RetreatHell
05-02-10, 10:08
Can't exactly throw on some ear protection in a hurry. Has nothing to do with flash and I can't have a flash hider in NY without a pre-ban lower...which I don't.
I think you will likely be good to go, man. You REALLY should go out to a range somewhere that allows you to shoot at night, well after the sun goes completely down, and test out your primary HD carbine. Shoot it without the light activated, and with the light activated. Also definitely try different types of ammo, as ammo DOES make a huge difference in muzzle blast and flash.
If it's ALL really bright, and if your light isn't enough in your judgement to nullify* the brightness of the muzzle flash, then you might want to get an actual weaponlight, such as a Surefire X200, X300, M300 Mini-Scout, etc... basically one that's a lot brighter (I have no experience with what you're running right now, I'm just making the assumption that the weaponlights I listed would be brighter).
* Not sure if I used the word "nullify" in the right context here, LOL:p
You should WATCH THIS VIDEO I MADE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIZCKy4ZZSE) recently of my Surefire MB556K brake being used on my BCM 14.5" mid-length at night outside in the dark. Ammo being used was PMC 55gr FMJs, and the flash isn't all that bad. The second half of the video is me firing my Surefire suppressor to see the difference between unsuppressed and suppressed fire at night or in low light situations, which is actually the point of the video.
Hope this helps. If not, let me know if I can explain something else in better detail for you.
Thanks a lot RH! Exactly what I needed to hear. Doesn't seem to be too much flash there. I shoot Prvi 62 gr M855 clone ammo for the most part. I have some 75gr too. I'll have to search out a range I can use at night. Guess I'm buying a couple lights. As if I'm not spending enough already. Aaaggghhhh!
Thanks again brother.
Rich
I think you will likely be good to go, man. You REALLY should go out to a range somewhere that allows you to shoot at night, well after the sun goes completely down, and test out your primary HD carbine. Shoot it without the light activated, and with the light activated. Also definitely try different types of ammo, as ammo DOES make a huge difference in muzzle blast and flash.
If it's ALL really bright, and if your light isn't enough in your judgement to nullify* the brightness of the muzzle flash, then you might want to get an actual weaponlight, such as a Surefire X200, X300, M300 Mini-Scout, etc... basically one that's a lot brighter (I have no experience with what you're running right now, I'm just making the assumption that the weaponlights I listed would be brighter).
* Not sure if I used the word "nullify" in the right context here, LOL:p
You should WATCH THIS VIDEO I MADE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIZCKy4ZZSE) recently of my Surefire MB556K brake being used on my BCM 14.5" mid-length at night outside in the dark. Ammo being used was PMC 55gr FMJs, and the flash isn't all that bad. The second half of the video is me firing my Surefire suppressor to see the difference between unsuppressed and suppressed fire at night or in low light situations, which is actually the point of the video.
Hope this helps. If not, let me know if I can explain something else in better detail for you.
Nice post, dude. Good lookin' out.:)
RetreatHell
05-02-10, 12:14
Thanks a lot RH! Exactly what I needed to hear. Doesn't seem to be too much flash there. I shoot Prvi 62 gr M855 clone ammo for the most part. I have some 75gr too. I'll have to search out a range I can use at night. Guess I'm buying a couple lights. As if I'm not spending enough already. Aaaggghhhh!
Thanks again brother.
Rich
No problem, man.;)
Hey I forgot to add that in the video I linked, I know the muzzle flash doesn't look too bad, and it wasn't with that PMC 55gr, but that was just to demo what some ammo does when show out of a 14.5" bbl with a SF brake mounted on the end. Your hotter loads will definitely be brighter.
Anyhoo, you'll just have to see what ammo works best for your personal application.
As an aside, the ammo with the loudest bang and concussion, and the brightest and biggest flash to come out of my BCM 11.5" SBR with the Triple Tap brake was Hornady 40gr V-max, believe it or not. Good God that shit was like a flashbang going off right in front of my face every time I pulled the trigger on the night I fired off a half mag of it!:eek: I was confused at first, because I assumed that the much smaller grain, used for varmint hunting, would be weaker altogether. But after doing some thinking about it, I realized that there's a lot more powder in those rounds than the Wolf ammo I was mainly shooting that night. Since it's a 40gr bullet, they can fit more powder in there because of that, and more powder is also added so that the small projectile can reach very high velocities which helps kill the smaller varmints that round's designed for. At least that was my understanding of it and seemed to make sense to me and my friend anyways.:p
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