View Full Version : So My Wife Wants an M4
She has made it clear that this is what she wants as her firearm. She is familiar, experienced and comfortable with it. And it's the right size for her small frame.
I disagree with her on it for a lot of reasons, but I want her to have access to her own weapon and this is what she wants.
So, to sort of compromise on this, who makes a .30 Cal M4?
MarshallDodge
04-28-10, 23:21
What is wrong with a 5.56 "M4"?
My recommendation would be a BCM with the midlength gas system. I bought one last year on the advice of others on this forum and it has been a great carbine.
???
5.56 w/ 62g loads is working OK for our armed forces in extremely violent urban combat...75g TAP would be a lot better and easy to get for civilian use. Or...get her a 6.8. I'd be really psyched if my wife wanted an M4, I want her to want one...and will probably build her one whether she wants it or not!
Because neither of us considers it to be a plinking gun. It will not be treated as any kind of toy. We're not looking to make it look cool and show it off or do any kind of special tricks with it.
If it gets used for anything other than basic range practice it needs real knockdown because lives are on the line. 5.56 don't do it.
I tried to point her toward weapons I think are better for that job; she likes this one. So I want to put together the best one I can for her.
This seems to be the place to get the information most easily so I can do just that.
???
5.56 w/ 62g loads is working OK for our armed forces in extremely violent urban combat...
She and I are both members of said forces. It's why we don't like the 5.56 or the 9mm
She and I are both members of said forces. It's why we don't like the 5.56 or the 9mm
Wow...
I agree with you on the 9mm, I opted for .357SIG to carry on duty. Now, as far as the 5.56 goes, yes there are better calibers out there suited for home defense. Thats not to say that the right ammo in 5.56 wont do the job just as good though. If I had a choice I would carry 6.8 on duty, but my dept only allows 5.56. I trust my life to this ammo and feel confident it will do the job. Plus availability is another thing you need to consider. Remember its round placement that counts and to keep proficient you should visit the range at least once a month, this can get expencive with higher cals.
thopkins22
04-29-10, 00:00
So...you should probably read all the stickies provided here. http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91
Then realize that the amount and quality of your wife's training will have a bazillion times more impact on her ability to survive a gunfight than a few fractions of an inch of bullet diameter.
We're not looking to make it look cool and show it off or do any kind of special tricks with it.
What constitutes making it cool for showing off and special tricks? If you mean you don't want to add a rail or fancy stock, fine...rock on.
So, I'll give you a great quote for the road.
...just recommend BCM carbines and Glock pistols, regardless of anything...Always the right call.
When it comes to the guy in our house despite the dogs and the alarm system, I want a round that will put him down regardless where it hits. In a high-stress situation, shot placement suffers. That and I'm worried about said person being a drug user (lots of meth in my area). It has to overpower his high and drop him anyway. Which is why I spend the extra money for a .45 for my duty pistol for my Constable duties.
Well, that and neither of us is a real good shot, anyway. We need a forgiving round even before the other considerations kick in.
Edit: I'm working through them Thopkins. There's a lot of info there.
Because neither of us considers it to be a plinking gun. It will not be treated as any kind of toy. We're not looking to make it look cool and show it off or do any kind of special tricks with it.
If it gets used for anything other than basic range practice it needs real knockdown because lives are on the line. 5.56 don't do it.
I tried to point her toward weapons I think are better for that job; she likes this one. So I want to put together the best one I can for her.
This seems to be the place to get the information most easily so I can do just that.
She and I are both members of said forces. It's why we don't like the 5.56 or the 9mm
Comparing what a Civilian can use for 5.56N and 9mm to what a person in the military can use is like comparing apples and oranges, right? Given that the military is limited to FMJ's given the Geneva Convention ban against Hollow Point type ammo, a civilian is not limited to that.
If she feels comfortable shooting it, shoots it well, and is accurate you should let her get it. Remember Larry Vickers motto "Speed is Fine. Accuracy is Final."
Having all the best SD weapon, with the best SD loads means squat if you can't hit the target you are aiming at.
Not trying to tell you otherwise, but look at what DocGKR had to say about the .30 Cal round (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956). Remember, this is ballistic info and if you have questions about ballistics, he is the man to see, just pointing you to the right area.
His write up on 5.56N Duty Loads (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956)loads is here.
Great luck in your search.
Also, since you say that neither of you are great shots, hit the range and do both of you a favor and take some classes.
Hate to be the one to break it to you but .45/.308 isn't going to do anything magical that a .9mm/5.56mm won't do. The .45/.308 isn't guaranteed to drop anyone, any differently either :rolleyes:
Hate to be the one to break it to you but .45/.308 isn't going to do anything magical that a .9mm/5.56mm won't do. The .45/.308 isn't guaranteed to drop anyone, any differently either :rolleyes:
Every time I hear or read that, I think about 1908. But whatever. History could be wrong.
Magic_Salad0892
04-29-10, 00:22
To quote another user.
''I've never seen somebody survive a shot from a 9mm that a .45, or .40 would have killed them. On the other hand, I've also never seen somebody die from a .45 or .40 where a 9mm wouldn't have gotten the job done either.''
Also, since you say that neither of you are great shots, hit the range and do both of you a favor and take some classes.
Yeah, I've been working on that. After 20 years of shooting, I can Finally, officially, hit the broad side of a barn at 100 yards.
She's already at that point after 4 years. It's a little annoying.
This thread makes my head hurt.
Daniel Defense, Bravo Company, Noveske, Colt LE6920. Pick one. Aimpoint, light, PMAGs. Training, training, training. Then more training.
Every time I hear or read that, I think about 1908. But whatever. History could be wrong.
You're referring to the one thing armchair commandos always point to "The US adopted the .45 to replace weak .38 revolvers after experience in the Philippines yada yada yada"
1) The .38 cartridges used back then were rather anemic. 9mm ammunition today is quite a bit different.
2) That was over a hundred years ago. Much has changed since.
3) We have hollowpoints. And good ones at that.
Well, that and neither of us is a real good shot, anyway. We need a forgiving round even before the other considerations kick in.
This is the problem. If you can't hit them with a 9mm a .45 isn't going to save you. In fact carrying less ammunition in the .45, typically, would be a problem due to not having the additional rounds to attempt to put into the bad guy. Just some food for thought.
This thread makes my head hurt.
I could mail you some aspirin...:D
Daniel Defense, Bravo Company, Noveske, Colt LE6920. Pick one. Aimpoint, light, PMAGs.
Much thanks.
Training, training, training. Then more training.
Yes. I know. God, I know. One benefit of having our own weapons is being Able to train. I already shoot my .45 better than my M16. In another few months, I'll have put more shots through my .45 than through every M16 I've ever held combined. I expect that to hold true when I get my own rifle, too.
You're referring to the one thing armchair commandos always point to "The US adopted the .45 to replace weak .38 revolvers after experience in the Philippines yada yada yada"
1) The .38 cartridges used back then were rather anemic. 9mm ammunition today is quite a bit different.
2) That was over a hundred years ago. Much has changed since.
3) We have hollowpoints. And good ones at that.
1) and 2) send me back to the links provided above for DocGKRs posts where he seems to disagree with you. .45, especially in a 1911 is what he considers ideal; and 5.56 is far from ideal in his opinion, but I haven't figured out what he likes best in a rifle.
Of course, that could just be how I'm reading it...
3) Hollow points, ftw. When you absolutely, positively have to make the kill ASAP. Right now I'm trying to figure out my duty ammo and like Remington Gold Sabres best. So far. But I haven't even seen the ones DocGKR recommends, let alone fired them. Not sure I could afford them.
Anyway, thank you again for the info up top. Now I need to look at them specifically.
Magic_Salad0892
04-29-10, 01:10
The only reason I even own a 6.8 rifle, is because while I like the bonus of being more effective out of an SBR (which all my rifles are) it has the option for subsonic loads.
If I was going non SBR it would be all 5.56.
Sorry? "SBR?"
Short Barrel Rifle - Less than 16" barrel. Requires ATF tax stamp for Joe Citizens.
Short Barrel Rifle - Less than 16" barrel. Requires ATF tax stamp for Joe Citizens.
Thank you.
SBR= short barrel rifle. You pay Uncle Sam $200 for the privilege of being able to own a rifle with a barrel shorter than 16" (rifle) or 18" (shotgun)
Training, training, training. Then more training.
Yes. I know. God, I know. One benefit of having our own weapons is being Able to train. I already shoot my .45 better than my M16. In another few months, I'll have put more shots through my .45 than through every M16 I've ever held combined. I expect that to hold true when I get my own rifle, too.
No, I meant you need to go seek out training with a suitably qualified instructor. If you can train with people like Larry Vickers or Pat Rogers, so much the better.
The instructor will bring out your weaknesses and help you work on them. Then, you go back to your regular practice sessions and use the drills and skills to continue your training.
I invite you to step in front of my 5.56 rifle at 100 yds. You won't survive....
But since you insist on a bigger round, just buy this upper :p
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/26/tactilite-t-2-magazine-fed-50-bmg-ar-15-upper/
But since you insist on a bigger round, just buy this upper :p
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/26/tactilite-t-2-magazine-fed-50-bmg-ar-15-upper/
I might use it, but it's just plain too much for my wife.
That's just made of awesome, though.:D
In regards to the whole 9mm vs. .45 ACP Doc sums it up best:
As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .
and then ends with:
Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.
(bold was his emphasis on this paragraph, not mine)
As far as what is ideal, at the end he actually said, given his life experience, he would prefer the the AR. It was in his Home Defense Long Gun (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869) thread (never read it before, but because of this find found this little gem).
Also one thing one needs to remember is where you are shooting. One thing I have to factor in is my neighbors and stray shots going through. Given the weapons, the 5.56N is better suited to my needs since even though I have a CCW, live in a stand your ground state, I am still legally, and also feel morally, responsible for every round I send down range.
The only person I ever saw in combat survive a good COM shot with a rifle round was hit with a 7.62x51 out of an Abrams coax. The round entered the bottom of his right shoulder blade (scapula?) and exited his left nipple. We found him 30 minutes after he was shot and he survived.
I dont use this story to say the 7.62 isnt any good, I love the round. I use it to show that no round is the "magic bullet". Some people are just plain hard to kill.
Dont expect the 7.62 to make up for the lack of good shot placement, I can tell you from experience it wont.
When it comes to the guy in our house despite the dogs and the alarm system, I want a round that will put him down regardless where it hits.
Here you go:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/DavyCrockettBomb.jpg/750px-DavyCrockettBomb.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device)
The absolutely ONLY weapon that will put him down regardless where it hits.
If I were you, I'd question each and every one of your assumptions, vis-a-vis self defense weapons. Seriously.
I want a round that will put him down regardless where it hits....
...Well, that and neither of us is a real good shot, anyway. We need a forgiving round even before the other considerations kick in.
There's no such thing... you have no idea what you're talking about.
You mentioned you both being in the military as your reason for not liking the 5.56 or 9mm. What is your MOS, and how has it demonstrated the inadequacy of the 5.56 or 9mm?
Sounds to me like you are too lazy to train harder and want a magic bullet to, somehow, make up for that failure on your part.
The closest practical round to what you are describing is 00 Buck , and even then training is required.
To quote another user.
''I've never seen somebody survive a shot from a 9mm that a .45, or .40 would have killed them. On the other hand, I've also never seen somebody die from a .45 or .40 where a 9mm wouldn't have gotten the job done either.''
Just read that the other night for the first time myself. Good article.
My wife and I both served as well. She is VERY happy with her BCM lightweight midlength upper. Yours would be as well. 5.56 isn't a end-all be-all cartridge, but it works well. We used that over seas, I currently run it now as a duty weapon, and she trusts it to protect our home.
Having all the best SD weapon, with the best SD loads means squat if you can't hit the target you are aiming at.
...under an elevated heart rate while someone is trying to kill you...
I agree. No matter the caliber, I don't want to be on the business end of any weapon if someone is a good shot under these conditions. On this same note research what round most people are put to death with in self defense situations than any other round in the United States.
Scott
RogerinTPA
04-29-10, 07:44
As a former 11B for several years, and with years of competitive shooting under my belt, I can attest to the fact that we were not trained adequately enough to be thoroughly familiar with the M16 platforms or how to employ them. We all had to figure it out for ourselves, or from senior NCOs ,until we got a little seasoning. In my first Carbine course from a top tier 1 instructor, he demanded damn near surgical accuracy, even while shooting on the move. I was way ahead of the game as far as others in the class, but the things that were taught, was FAR more ahead of what I learned as an 11B with both carbine and pistol. It was a complete eye opener. Life saving skills on how to shoot, manipulations, malfunction clearance and employment, that every service member and civi AR owner should know, but were never taught. That training completely changed my opinion as far as what I thought I knew.
As far as on shot stopping power and all of that, there is no such thing. Shot placement is much more important than caliber of the weapon. Recognize that you may have ingrained "training scars", from what you learned in the military. You need to concede the fact that both you and the mrs, need quality training from a competent instructor, to help diagnose the issues you have, making you a more accurate shooter faster, then practice what you learn, and do it often.
When it comes to the guy in our house despite the dogs and the alarm system, I want a round that will put him down regardless where it hits. In a high-stress situation, shot placement suffers. That and I'm worried about said person being a drug user (lots of meth in my area). It has to overpower his high and drop him anyway. Which is why I spend the extra money for a .45 for my duty pistol for my Constable duties.
Well, that and neither of us is a real good shot, anyway. We need a forgiving round even before the other considerations kick in.
Edit: I'm working through them Thopkins. There's a lot of info there.
Hate to be the one to break it to you but .45/.308 isn't going to do anything magical that a .9mm/5.56mm won't do. The .45/.308 isn't guaranteed to drop anyone, any differently either :rolleyes:
Every time I hear or read that, I think about 1908. But whatever. History could be wrong.
Sounds like the old time thinking that hitting someone in the hand with a .45 he will surely go down...
Like everyone said, shot placement is paramount
Story of a guy recently hit in the arm with an 8mm rifle round. Note the comparison between a 5.56 and an 8mm cartridge.
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5436084761/m/479105456
There's no such thing... you have no idea what you're talking about.
You mentioned you both being in the military as your reason for not liking the 5.56 or 9mm. What is your MOS, and how has it demonstrated the inadequacy of the 5.56 or 9mm?
Sounds to me like you are too lazy to train harder and want a magic bullet to, somehow, make up for that failure on your part.
The closest practical round to what you are describing is 00 Buck , and even then training is required.
Agreed. 00buck is the way to go for your situation.
And since you (Taran) said both of you are not good at shooting, with the shotty you will have multiple projectiles going out for a higher chance of a hit even if you shot is slightly off...Not to be hard on you, but the fact you don't know how to shoot very well and are in "the field" kind of makes me :rolleyes: . If you shoot me in the hand with a 9mm it will hurt like a bitch, shoot me in the hand with a .45 it will hurt like a bitch. In both situations Im getting away. Shoot me in the chest with either and I will be down. It's about shot placement. If you got a meth head you want to donate to test my example I will show you. Place him roughly 15 feet away, I will put a WELL placed shot of 9mm +p in his chest area. If he keeps running after me demanding money for more meth I will give you $100:D
ForTehNguyen
04-29-10, 08:32
build her as lightweight of a build as you can
build her as lightweight of a build as you can
Based on what I have read os far, annoying caliber arguments notwithstanding, I would rather she build it. ;)
mmm...
You know what? Never mind. The heretic shall now move on.
mmm...
You know what? Never mind. The heretic shall now move on.
A bit mellow dramatic :rolleyes:. Just because some are telling you a different answer than what you want, does not mean that it is the wrong answer.
mmm...
You know what? Never mind. The heretic shall now move on.
Ah yes. The ever popular "little bitch" response.
Do yourself a favor and hang around, reading some more posts.
Seriously, I was in 20+ years, and made every opportunity to train, put rounds downrange, with every system every Army I came close to used as their primary weapon. That was before I came here, all full of shit, and learned a thing or two about the M4 Carbine.
I learned that most of my suppositions and bullshit I thought I knew from my "long and storied service" was just that; bullshit.
Surprisingly, I still learn something just about every day on this forum. It's freaking amazing how much knowledge, real no shit knowledge about the M4 carbine is located right here. Don't worry though, this forum has seen you before, in about 10,000 different incarnations. One of which was me, btw.
Stick around and learn something, why dontcha?
:)
So, to sort of compromise on this, who makes a .30 Cal M4?
Remington makes a 30 REM AR caliber hunting rifle but it is probably not what you are looking for.
http://www.remington.com/~/media/Images/Firearms/Centerfire/Model-R15/Model-R-15/R-15-30-AR-prod.ashx?w=570&bc=ffffff
Colt used to make an M4 in 7.62x39, but I don't know about their reliability in that cartridge.
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/gunknifecountry/DSC_0001-4.jpg
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=166272943
HallieKinIA
04-29-10, 11:25
She has made it clear that this is what she wants as her firearm. She is familiar, experienced and comfortable with it. And it's the right size for her small frame.
I disagree with her on it for a lot of reasons, but I want her to have access to her own weapon and this is what she wants.
So, to sort of compromise on this, who makes a .30 Cal M4?
Taran, does she want a 30 cal or do you want it for her?
there is a difference. I had never been around firearms until
I met Joe.
he taught me the basics, and let me try everything he had.
I am small as well, 5'4.5" 103 lbs.
I have fired some 7.62 rifles and do not enjoy it. I can however
handle a 5.56 rifle with NO problems.
Speaking from my own experience, if you make her shoot something
she doesn't enjoy she won't shoot it enough to do any good.
OP stay and learn. Ill tell you that I wasnt always a 5.56 fan. When I first joined the Army while in highschool I even said we should all carry 7mm Rem Mags. Because I thought that it would drop a man not matter what.
But I was very wrong. People are surprisingly fragile and tough at the same time. If you dont stop something VITAL to immediate survival, there is no garauntee that it will work right away, no matter what you shoot them with.
In 2003 during the Iraq invasion my friend who was a Brad gunner engaged an Iraqi gun truck. Thats the fancy term for a Toyota with a machine gun mounted in the back.
he switched the 25mm over to HE. But the gun system always has one round left over when you switch, so the round "in the chamber" was a DU.
The round hit the truck in the grill and completely penetrated the truck and the two guys on the driver side.
The driver was acually able to crawl out of the vehicle, despite being nearly ripped in half at the stomach, before he died next to the truck.
If a guy was able to survive that wound for a bit of time, dont think any rifle you can shoulder is going to "drop them" no matter what.
My friends roomate recently shot herself with a .45 in the chest during a drunken argument with her boyfriend on St Pattys day. Round entered her sternum and exited her back near her left armpit. She was up and walking at the hospital 3 days later and was released within 3 weeks. Missed her heart by less than an inch and partially deflated her left lung.
Again, bigger bullets dont make up very much for bad shot placement.
OP, Put your ego in check and stay, learn, and make an educated decision. Just because you serve (I salute all who do) doesn't mean you know anything about terminal ballistics or gunfighting. I tend to think you really don't know a whole lot about the system if you have to ask who makes a .30 caliber AR. Your assumptions about what works vs. how and what doesn't is very dated and not based on real world shootings. Check your ego at the door and read a bit. welcome to the site.
Shooter101
04-29-10, 20:21
What is wrong with 5.56?
Shooter101
04-29-10, 20:28
You understand there is nothing wrong with 5.56, The round is a goood round. It is all about shot location. What round is the biggest killer in the states?,,,,,,,,
22 cal.
It is all about where your shot placement is. You have to hit whatever your target is in the vitals for you to incapacitate it.
Given that the military is limited to FMJ's given the Geneva Convention ban against Hollow Point type ammo, a civilian is not limited to that. What you are referring to is the The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp
...Yep, 22 cal. imagine that...
I have seen many a hog shot in the head with an 8mm, 44 brush gun or 444 only to run for quite a way before dropping...I know a fella who used to raise hogs and always put them down with a .25 cal. He knew exactly where to place the shot.
What is the maximum distance a person can be away from you and strike giving you no time to react? The answer was quite shocking to me. Proper training is most important and sometimes a lot harder to find than the weapon and ammo.
Scott
trunkmonkey
04-29-10, 22:41
Because neither of us considers it to be a plinking gun. It will not be treated as any kind of toy. We're not looking to make it look cool and show it off or do any kind of special tricks with it.
If it gets used for anything other than basic range practice it needs real knockdown because lives are on the line. 5.56 don't do it.
I tried to point her toward weapons I think are better for that job; she likes this one. So I want to put together the best one I can for her.
This seems to be the place to get the information most easily so I can do just that.
She and I are both members of said forces. It's why we don't like the 5.56 or the 9mm
Not sure what branch in said forces your in. But in my branch we were taught to hit center mast properly, and those rounds do just fine when you do your part.
So if anyone here has put rounds on target and has beef with that I'd love to hear it.
trunkmonkey
04-29-10, 22:45
OP stay and learn. Ill tell you that I wasnt always a 5.56 fan. When I first joined the Army while in highschool I even said we should all carry 7mm Rem Mags. Because I thought that it would drop a man not matter what.
But I was very wrong. People are surprisingly fragile and tough at the same time. If you dont stop something VITAL to immediate survival, there is no garauntee that it will work right away, no matter what you shoot them with.
In 2003 during the Iraq invasion my friend who was a Brad gunner engaged an Iraqi gun truck. Thats the fancy term for a Toyota with a machine gun mounted in the back.
he switched the 25mm over to HE. But the gun system always has one round left over when you switch, so the round "in the chamber" was a DU.
The round hit the truck in the grill and completely penetrated the truck and the two guys on the driver side.
The driver was acually able to crawl out of the vehicle, despite being nearly ripped in half at the stomach, before he died next to the truck.
If a guy was able to survive that wound for a bit of time, dont think any rifle you can shoulder is going to "drop them" no matter what.
My friends roomate recently shot herself with a .45 in the chest during a drunken argument with her boyfriend on St Pattys day. Round entered her sternum and exited her back near her left armpit. She was up and walking at the hospital 3 days later and was released within 3 weeks. Missed her heart by less than an inch and partially deflated her left lung.
Again, bigger bullets dont make up very much for bad shot placement.
oh and the fancy name for a "gun truck" is a technical by the way.
What you are referring to is the The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp
Thanks for the clearification
Knock down power eh? You mean just like in the movies?
Knock down power eh? You mean just like in the movies?
Hey nothing wrong with wanting to see the guy fly 10 feet from getting shot with a 45....:D
oh and the fancy name for a "gun truck" is a technical by the way.
Yeah i know but I couldnt remember the name at the time. One of those on the tip of your tongue moments.:)
Shooter101
04-30-10, 15:19
Jeffy, I know what the law of war says. Don't be surprised when you see a new bullet come out for Military use. Not to be an ass but that's all I can say about that for now, just because of the job I'm in. If you are in the Military, (You will see a change in ammo performance and terminal effects on the battle field!)
Jeffy, I know what the law of war says. Don't be surprised when you see a new bullet come out for Military use. Not to be an ass but that's all I can say about that for now, just because of the job I'm in. If you are in the Military, (You will see a change in ammo performance and terminal effects on the battle field!)No need to get your panties in a bunch, all I was doing was making a correction from another member. :rolleyes:
Not sure what branch in said forces your in. But in my branch we were taught to hit center mast properly, and those rounds do just fine when you do your part.
So if anyone here has put rounds on target and has beef with that I'd love to hear it.
You must have been in the Marines. Yes the Army tries to teach that, but once out of Basic Training (Or at least in my experience) All we trained on were pop up targets. Hard to tell where your shots are actually landing on a pop up target. Granted I was not in a combat MOS (aviation if that matters), so that may have something to do with it.
Edit: BTW the marine comment I made. That was not meant in a bad way. I know it can be hard to decipher intent in a message board.
Magic_Salad0892
04-30-10, 16:39
I think you were giving them a marksman complement.
You don't have to clarify.
BTW: I really wish the Marines got the M16A3. Instead of the A2.
mmm...
You know what? Never mind. The heretic shall now move on.
This is the type of forum where if you ask for an opinion on something, you will get it. I have learned early that these people do NOT rubber stamp validate a persons choice.
Has it hurt my feelings, sure has, but the advice they have given me is far more valuable.
Basically, if your looking for validation on your choice/thoughts, this is not the place to ask.
Does anyone make a good reliable combat type AR10 with a short barrel for under 2k?
All the cheaper ones I have handled tend to be more of a target rifle.
She and I are both members of said forces. It's why we don't like the 5.56 or the 9mm
5.56 is more than enough round for close combat. It sounds like you will be using this gun for home defense. A .30 cal or larger round may over penetrate and put others in danger. 6.8 mm has proven to be a good compromise for the 5.56 vs. .30 cal debate.
I can't believe this thread is still rolling...
Any luck deciding on a weapon? I think several choices out there will serve your family well. I'm sure I don't have to say it, but remember that there is no "end all be all" weapon. I own multiple weapons and they all do different things. Some perform better than others. Some have special purposes. Some are just for fun.
Good luck.
goodoleboy
04-30-10, 21:36
For my .02, I would stick with a 5.56 and use some 75 gr ammo in it. But if you insist on something with more punch, Alexander Arms makes complete uppers that fire a .50 cal Beowulf round. Basically, it's similar to a .500 S&W but with a rimless case. You really sacrifice magazine capacity with that thing, but it is a devastating round under 200 yards. The drawbacks are increased recoil, very expensive ammo, and 10 rounds as opposed to 30 in the mag.
But to add weight to what has been said before, a big caliber doesn't make up for poor marksmanship. 1,000:1 I would rather have a well-trained man with a 5.56 using M-193 covering my back than a poorly trained man with the .50 cal Beowulf.
I certainly mean no disrespect when I say any of the above statements. I honor your desire to have the most effective weapon to defend your home, but a reliable 5.56 in the hands of a well-trained person is a devastatingly leathal combination.
I'm not a ballistics expert, but the 5.56 wounds that I've seen that were inflicted at close ranges have been beyond horrific, and that is with the regular issued M855 ammo. And I'm assuming if you are looking at the AR platform, you're talking about home defense, which should mean close range shots.
trunkmonkey
05-01-10, 09:39
You must have been in the Marines. Yes the Army tries to teach that, but once out of Basic Training (Or at least in my experience) All we trained on were pop up targets. Hard to tell where your shots are actually landing on a pop up target. Granted I was not in a combat MOS (aviation if that matters), so that may have something to do with it.
Edit: BTW the marine comment I made. That was not meant in a bad way. I know it can be hard to decipher intent in a message board.
My point was there is nothing wrong with 5.56 when you do your part. If your training was not up to part there are some fine schools out there to attend.
And yes, the Army's qual course is a joke.
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