View Full Version : CCW and Census Workers
I started working for the 2010 US Census this week. I'm did my final day of training today. Throughout the course I've been concerned about the lack of safety instruction about going door to door. I can't get into specifics because much of the text in the manuals and other paperwork isn't supposed to be viewed by the public. Suffices to say that there is information concerning what to do in case of car accidents, animal encounters (dog bites, etc), and people who are unwilling to cooperate or verbally threatening. There is no mention of self defense, only to say to leave the area immediately if you feel threatened.
I have read all of the documents provided to me several times looking for any specific instruction regarding weapons of any kind. Aside from tactics to get a dog to release you if bitten, there is no information on defending yourself in any of the material we were given. A girl in the class asked our instructor about pepper spray today and was told "I can't tell you to carry it, but if I were Enumerating (the position I have) I would want to be able to defend myself." Another person asked about a Tazer and was told "Well, that's really more of a weapon," but was not told no.
I live in a very rural part of the country and many people have little tolerance for government employees/intervention in their lives. This was moonshine country and I've lived here my whole life and heard stories about shotguns on the front porch, etc.
In no way do I want to be irresponsible with my CCW especially as a government employee. I did not specifically ask our supervisor yet because I wanted some advice on fellow CCW holders before I let anyone (especially my boss) know I carry a gun daily. Is there a statute or any information about government employees and CCW? Would you carry? Any other advice?
Thanks and sorry about the lengthy post.
I should clarify. My job is to go door to door to get census information who have not turned in their census form.
I'm pretty sure that CCW is not allowed for census workers. I seem to remember a similar discussion on another board a few months back.
Keep in mind you will be going on people's private property. This isn't CCWing on a trip into town.
Some states have laws against CCWing onto someone's private property w/o permission from the owner.
its your right to carry and defend yourself,
worst case is you have to use your weapon and they find out, as long as it was provoked by the other person there is nothing they can do, thats clear-cut self defense, government employee or not. Most likely you wont need it and will be fine, and you will continue to go on without your boss knowing you carry.
besides, if its not written, its not a rule.
I'm pretty sure that CCW is not allowed for census workers. I seem to remember a similar discussion on another board a few months back.
Keep in mind you will be going on people's private property. This isn't CCWing on a trip into town.
Some states have laws against CCWing onto someone's private property w/o permission from the owner.
While you may be right, the concealed part coupled with a need for some sort of defense might influence some to carry anyway
Alpha Sierra
04-29-10, 18:39
Why would anyone work for the fed.gov?
Complication
04-29-10, 18:43
I can see the headlines now, "US Census Bureau worker shoots man dead."
If you decide to carry, I would be extremely extremely judicious about ever unholstering the weapon and concealment.
If anything does go down, there's likely going to be a giant shitstorm falling on your head as inaccurate but sensational headlines about Census workers "invading homes" and "murdering people" are great for ratings. And even if those stories are eventually replaced with accurate ones about the truth of the matter, it'll likely ruin your life. Any google search on your name will return the hundreds of initial news articles about your "murder."
That said, it's better to be alive with your life ruined than dead in the street.
Also, imagine what you'd do if some guy came knocking on your door with a Census Bureau bag and a pistol on his hip. Great cover for bad guys to get you to unlock the door. So make sure that under no circumstances could anyone possibly even see a hint of the gun.
And then there are all the legal issues. Someone mentioned some states having laws which might prohibit that.
I would definitely walk around with some sort of self defense. Personally I would opt for pepper spray or a tazer or something because it's going to be much more difficult to turn that into a life-ruining experience and yet it still provides you with some measure of self-defense.
The best defense of all, however, will probably be to remain in condition yellow when you go a-knockin.
Why would anyone work for the fed.gov?
Best paying job in the new America.
I can't get into specifics because much of the text in the manuals and other paperwork isn't supposed to be viewed by the public.
I have to ask why? It is not like you are being trusted with national security secrets or running some black ops. For god sakes, all you are doing is asking for the number of people in a residence, how much top secret info can there be in your training? Now, I dont mean any of this sarcasm to you personally I know that you are just doing what you are told. I just have to wonder about what they are thinking is so special:rolleyes:.
citizensoldier16
04-29-10, 18:50
I would contact the Census Bureau directly and ask. Explain to them your situation and the demographic in which you live and work. They will be able to provide you an answer. Either way, ask them to provide you with documentation, or record the phone conversation.
I have to ask why? It is not like you are being trusted with national security secrets or running some black ops. For god sakes, all you are doing is asking for the number of people in a residence, how much top secret info can there be in your training? Now, I dont mean any of this sarcasm to you personally I know that you are just doing what you are told. I just have to wonder about what they are thinking is so special:rolleyes:.
What he said. What's the super secret stuff and why does the census bureau want to keep it such a secret?:confused:
Complication
04-29-10, 18:52
Having the numbers of the local police departments programmed into your phone might also be a good idea should anything occur.
kaiservontexas
04-29-10, 18:52
I will say it right now. No warrant no guns carried by any officer onto my lands. Period end of list.
I am a little fast as I was eating my last bite, fajitas.
No .gov employee local, state, or federal without warrant may carry without my permission onto any property I own.
I have to ask why? It is not like you are being trusted with national security secrets or running some black ops. For god sakes, all you are doing is asking for the number of people in a residence, how much top secret info can there be in your training? Now, I dont mean any of this sarcasm to you personally I know that you are just doing what you are told. I just have to wonder about what they are thinking is so special:rolleyes:.
I COMPLETELY agree that it's overkill and I didn't take it personally at all.
They call it PII (Personally Identifiable Information) and divulging of PII is protected under the same laws that restrict the Census Bureau from telling AT&T how many phones you have. I didn't know it going in, but Census information is actually dealt with very seriously. They hold it for 72 years before releasing it to the LOC. Pretty nuts.
Best paying job in the new America.
Hahaha. College student looking for some part time work. They pay 12/hr, .50 a mile, and up to $240 a month for phone (which is RIDICULOUS). The Census is a mind blowing waste of tax payer money yall.
I think I found my answer. I found this on thehighroad.org
Sorry for the late reply.
I worked the Address Canvassing operation in the spring, and I'm now employed at the local office.
Every step I took as an Enumerator, I had a RIA .45 on my hip, condition 1. I was never made aware of any regulations regarding CCW, and I didn't ask, either. Now I know that Census Bureau policy (not law, mind you,) strictly prohibits carrying weapons (this, of course, is never defined,) while on the job. Not on your person, not in the car. They can get bent, for all I care. If ever I get called back into the field, I will be armed. No job is worth risking my life or my safety.
In the office, however, federal law comes into play. Title 18, specifically;
Quote:
From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
[www.gpoaccess.gov]
[Laws in effect as of January 3, 2007]
[CITE: 18USC930]
[Page 235]
TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I--CRIMES
CHAPTER 44--FIREARMS
Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in
Federal facilities
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly
possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in
a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to
do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1
year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be
used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be
present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or
attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not
more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of
subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal
facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or
attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided
in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to--
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer,
agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political
subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or
supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution
of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a
Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession
is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
(e)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly
possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility,
or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not
more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in
paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the
United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders
regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within
any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any
grounds appurtenant to such building.
(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term ``Federal facility'' means a building or part
thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal
employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their
official duties.
(2) The term ``dangerous weapon'' means a weapon, device,
instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is
used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily
injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a
blade of less than 2\1/2\ inches in length.
(3) The term ``Federal court facility'' means the courtroom,
judges' chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney
conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court
clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal,
probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court
of the United States.
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be
posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility,
and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each
public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be
convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a
Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility,
unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the
case may be.
(Added Pub. L. 100-690, title VI, Sec. 6215(a), Nov. 18, 1988, 102 Stat.
4361; amended Pub. L. 101-647, title XXII, Sec. 2205(a), Nov. 29, 1990,
104 Stat. 4857; Pub. L. 103-322, title VI, Sec. 60014, Sept. 13, 1994,
108 Stat. 1973; Pub. L. 104-294, title VI, Sec. 603(t), (u), Oct. 11,
1996, 110 Stat. 3506; Pub. L. 107-56, title VIII, Sec. 811(b), Oct. 26,
2001, 115 Stat. 381.)
Amendments
2001--Subsec. (c). Pub. L. 107-56 struck out ``or attempts to kill''
after ``A person who kills'', inserted ``or attempts or conspires to do
such an act,'' before ``shall be punished'', and substituted ``1113, and
1117'' for ``and 1113''.
1996--Subsec. (e)(2). Pub. L. 104-294, Sec. 603(t), substituted
``subsection (d)'' for ``subsection (c)''.
Subsec. (g). Pub. L. 104-294, Sec. 603(u)(1), redesignated subsec.
(g), related to posting notice in Federal facilities, as (h).
Subsec. (h). Pub. L. 104-294, Sec. 603(u)(2), substituted ``(e)''
for ``(d)'' wherever appearing.
Pub. L. 104-294, Sec. 603(u)(1), redesignated subsec. (g), related
to posting notice in Federal facilities, as (h).
1994--Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 60014(2), substituted
``(d)'' for ``(c)''.
Subsecs. (c) to (g). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 60014(1), (3), added
subsec. (c) and redesignated former subsecs. (c) to (f) as (d) to (g),
respectively.
1990--Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 101-647, Sec. 2205(a)(1), inserted
``(other than a Federal court facility)'' after ``Federal facility''.
Subsecs. (d), (e). Pub. L. 101-647, Sec. 2205(a)(2), (3), added
subsec. (d) and redesignated former subsec. (d) as (e). Former subsec.
(e) redesignated (f).
Subsec. (f). Pub. L. 101-647, Sec. 2205(a)(2), redesignated subsec.
(e) as (f). Former subsec. (f) redesignated (g).
Subsec. (f)(3). Pub. L. 101-647, Sec. 2205(a)(4), added par. (3).
Subsec. (g). Pub. L. 101-647, Sec. 2205(a)(5), inserted ``and notice
of subsection (d) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance
to each Federal court facility,'' after ``each Federal facility,'', ``or
(d)'' before ``with respect to'', and ``or (d), as the case may be''
before the period.
Pub. L. 101-647, Sec. 2205(a)(2), redesignated subsec. (f) as (g).
Effective Date of 1990 Amendment
Section 2205(b) of Pub. L. 101-647 provided that: ``The amendments
made by subsection (a) [amending this section] shall apply to conduct
engaged in after the date of the enactment of this Act [Nov. 29,
1990].''
Note that pocket knives with blades less than 2.5" in length are permissible (section 930, subsection g, paragraph 3,) So that's what I carry. I am a responsible adult American, and I'll be damned if I'm going to claw and bite my way through a package of brochures. Also note that paragraph 3 of subsection d provides an exemption for "(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes."
To my mind, "other lawful purposes" would include CCW. This argument has been made before for carrying in post offices and such, but I can't find any clear resolution to the matter. I think there might be case law that negatively affects this
Anyway, I'm not too worried about it. Mindset, skillset, toolset, in that order, right? The lesson of the Tueller Drill can work in our favor, as well as against us.
Heavy Metal
04-29-10, 19:19
I will say it right now. No warrant no guns carried by any officer onto my lands. Period end of list.
I am a little fast as I was eating my last bite, fajitas.
No .gov employee local, state, or federal without warrant may carry without my permission onto any property I own.
I suggest you research the Open Fields Doctrine before you get yourself in trouble.
Heavy Metal
04-29-10, 19:22
Dude,
It is a stupid, temporary, part-time job. What are they going to do if they catch you? Eat you?
Carry and be descrete.
Dude,
It is a stupid, temporary, part-time job. What are they going to do if they catch you? Eat you?
Carry and be descrete.
Losing the job is meaningless. I was more concerned about the issue of carrying as a federal employee; the legal issue not the Census Bureau's rules.
Oh I CAN'T BELIEVE I didn't post this earlier. All Census employees are required to take the Uniformed Services Oath of Office.
I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God
Strange?
as a full time fed.gov employee for 18 yrs, i can tell you this...if you are travelling in a gov't vehicle(which i doubt you are) you will lose your job if caught...i know people in TN that did anyway, but were discrete and also in pot/moonshine country...we all fear for our lives, driving a us gov't vehicle makes you a target...
i have a ccw as well and i don't carry period...my job pays too well for me to compromise my job and where i have to go is not as bad, although some facilities are out in the sticks...my job is totally different from house to house collecting data though...hopefully i won't be put in harm's way where i'll need my weapon, but one never knows...
I don't know the factual answer to your question but I would be shocked if there were not a prohibition against carrying a weapon while perforning your federal duties.
I am a volunteer with a local PD and I am expecitly not allowed to carry concealed while performing my duties in the community.
People put waaaaaay too much effort into this stuff.
Alpha Sierra
04-29-10, 21:08
Best paying job in the new America.
Some things are worth more than money.
If I were in your place, I would think like this:
Do you want to die a good citizen, or have the ability to defend your life as a "criminal"?
Oh I CAN'T BELIEVE I didn't post this earlier. All Census employees are required to take the Uniformed Services Oath of Office.
Strange?
Not strange. I took the same oath when I entered employment with the Nat'l Park Service (and note that it was not an LE job). Now, did any of my supervisors uphold that oath...hell no.
I think it's pretty standard procedure across the board to take the oath when entering Federal service.
People put waaaaaay too much effort into this stuff.
I agree.
as a full time fed.gov employee for 18 yrs, i can tell you this...if you are travelling in a gov't vehicle(which i doubt you are) you will lose your job if caught..
One of the things that I worried about when I had my federal job was that I would be fired (real easy to fire temporary/seasonal employees and student employees, especially at the supervisor's whim) and that would effectively block me from any form of desirable employment...no matter how much explanation I offered.
I'd count it as a badge of honor to fired from census worker for CCW... Maybe that's just me. :confused:
Yup. Though I am still feeling a little bad that they didn't hire me. I am too icky .. .. er, outspoken maybe. In anycase, I'd feel better about being fired by them than never hired at all. YMMV.
Had I been hired I would have carried, they probably would pay unemployment regardless of why you were fired & even if they didn't, better that than dead. True enough there are places in this country where you can just simply vanish & no number of CSI shows to the contrary are gonna make it less true.
Well, it doesn't matter anymore! I just got a phone call and turns out they fired my manager and promoted me to her position. No more door to door. Entry level employee to regional supervisor, not bad for 3 days on the job huh?
Well, it doesn't matter anymore! I just got a phone call and turns out they fired my manager and promoted me to her position. No more door to door. Entry level employee to regional supervisor, not bad for 3 days on the job huh?
BWAHAHAHAHA welcome to the govt i guess?
I'd count it as a badge of honor to fired from census worker for CCW... Maybe that's just me. :confused:
A lot of people here would think that.
But employers would probably look at it as "He got fired from a government job? How did he **** that up?"
Many who are unfamiliar with government employment often think that all gov't employees are very, very hard to fire, have good benefits, and are lazy. It simply isn't so in many cases.
What he said. What's the super secret stuff and why does the census bureau want to keep it such a secret?:confused:
The federal government is full of secret squirell wannabes. They all think their position is "sensitive" and that no one can know what they know. I work with these types every day and we make fun of them unmercifully. They are truly a sight to behold.
I cannot carry at work, in a .gov vehicle or while on official travel status, and it sucks. Hell, my boss is pissed that I carry a gun in my POV, because he thinks the .gov can prohibit it. Too bad I park in non-subsidized parking that is not owned or controlled by the .gov, so I told him to try and stop me! Four years later, he's yet to try. :D
Oh I CAN'T BELIEVE I didn't post this earlier. All Census employees are required to take the Uniformed Services Oath of Office.
Strange?
Mail Carriers take that oath. BLM employees take that oath. Forest Service employees take that oath. Fish and Wild Life employees take that oath. Welcome to working for the federal government.
Mail Carriers take that oath. BLM employees take that oath. Forest Service employees take that oath. Fish and Wild Life employees take that oath. Welcome to working for the federal government.
What's sad is the number of federal employees who take the oath, then turn around and do whatever the hell they feel like, regardless of that oath. :(
yeah, i'm sure that IF private companies made someone take an oath to serve, they'd do strictly as the company allowed as well:rolleyes:
glad to see that you got a promotion...enjoy that gubment cheese while you can!!! most of the people crackin' on gubment jobs are the ones who couldn't/shouldn't be able to get or keep one anyway...
Well, it doesn't matter anymore! I just got a phone call and turns out they fired my manager and promoted me to her position. No more door to door. Entry level employee to regional supervisor, not bad for 3 days on the job huh?
It would've been faster if you were a woman or a minority. Hell, you might be both I don't know, but you get the point.
It would've been faster if you were a woman or a minority. Hell, you might be both I don't know, but you get the point.
Nope. Just a white, Southern, Male.
I think I hear the keys coming out.
I found out something today that blew my mind. A phase of the census that took place before I got hired on (thank God) was to GO INTO abandoned houses, under bridges, overpasses, parks, etc AT NIGHT with flashlights wearing hi-vis vests that said US GOVT on the back. No Police escorts or any type of weapons were permitted. The purpose was to find and count the homeless in the area.
I found out something today that blew my mind. A phase of the census that took place before I got hired on (thank God) was to GO INTO abandoned houses, under bridges, overpasses, parks, etc AT NIGHT with flashlights wearing hi-vis vests that said US GOVT on the back. No Police escorts or any type of weapons were permitted. The purpose was to find and count the homeless in the area.
Doesn't shock me a bit. I was told to do some pretty stupid/senseless stuff in my job, also. Go into the woods during hunting season to find poachers, while unarmed and w/ no arrest powers? Hell ****ing no, thank you very much.
Glad for your safety that you don't have to do that.
most of the people crackin' on gubment jobs are the ones who couldn't/shouldn't be able to get or keep one anyway...
Bullshit. Most of the people "crackin' on gubment jobs" are right. If you are good/competent and hardworking, you will probably be thrown under the bus constantly by your superiors. Incompetent and a waste of oxygen, but drink the koolaid? You're management potential, baby!
Heavy Metal
05-01-10, 23:12
I found out something today that blew my mind. A phase of the census that took place before I got hired on (thank God) was to GO INTO abandoned houses, under bridges, overpasses, parks, etc AT NIGHT with flashlights wearing hi-vis vests that said US GOVT on the back. No Police escorts or any type of weapons were permitted. The purpose was to find and count the homeless in the area.
**** that shit!
Bullshit. Most of the people "crackin' on gubment jobs" are right. If you are good/competent and hardworking, you will probably be thrown under the bus constantly by your superiors. Incompetent and a waste of oxygen, but drink the koolaid? You're management potential, baby![/QUOTE]
no, i am one of the good/competent and hardworking that is thrown under the bus...i just fight management through the proper channels that we have in place and have enjoyed a 14 yr career with my agency...the military was full of more incompetent wastes of oxygen that were untouchable as upper level NCOs than could ever be witnessed in my agency...we have all the 20 yr "new old guys" that we have to give jobs to and these retired E-8s can't do the physical labor required to do my job, want to sit around smoking and drinking coffee with management and throw the guys out doing our work under the bus...
unfortunately, with today's laws on age base hiring, we can't get around the coffee cup toting losers we have to hire today...those that were too afraid to get out of the service's warm cuddly nest of incompetence to get a real job...now, we can't bring in the 25-30 yr olds that were hired when i came in that were the "go-getters" and still overperform despite the ****ed up ex-AF guys managing/wanna-be-managers that we have promoted through years of "Peter-principle" advancements...:rolleyes:
its your right to carry and defend yourself,
worst case is you have to use your weapon and they find out, as long as it was provoked by the other person there is nothing they can do, thats clear-cut self defense, government employee or not. Most likely you wont need it and will be fine, and you will continue to go on without your boss knowing you carry.
besides, if its not written, its not a rule.
You will have a hell of a problem justifying self defense. You will be on other people property and there fore the best defense for you would be to retreat. It is highly unlikely that you will come under fire from a house as you pull in the drive.
bubabootie
05-03-10, 14:02
I would say that you have the right to defend yourself. Just don't go in the home. I'd recommend staying on the door and asking your questions. If they escalate, just remember to escalate your force in kind, trying to avoid a confrontation. I'd say if they appear that hostile, you need to just drop everything and GTFO!
Let me see if I got it right.
Yes, Im going to carry when the Census worker knocks on my door.
Right?
:D
I would say that you have the right to defend yourself. Just don't go in the home. I'd recommend staying on the door and asking your questions. If they escalate, just remember to escalate your force in kind, trying to avoid a confrontation. I'd say if they appear that hostile, you need to just drop everything and GTFO!
I can see someone opening fire after they get a door slammed in their face and asked to leave.
I can see someone opening fire after they get a door slammed in their face and asked to leave.
We don't ask them to leave around here, we tell them to GTFO immediately.
Although I'm sure the OP wouldn't do something stupid like your scenario, Spiffums...
Hahaha. College student looking for some part time work. They pay 12/hr, .50 a mile, and up to $240 a month for phone (which is RIDICULOUS). The Census is a mind blowing waste of tax payer money yall.
That is MY money, DUDE. Your post irks me beyond belief. Ugh. I'm probably paying for your schooling, too. That about sum it up? If that '82 in your screen name is your dob, you need to exit fantasy land immediately and get a real job.
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