View Full Version : Gen 4 Glock 17 update
Larry Vickers
04-30-10, 07:13
Quick update;
the G17 Gen 4 I got for the show has ran great BUT I locked the slide to the rear in the box for about a week
My guess is that is a must
My bro Hackathorn just did a class and two Gen 4 G17's had mega problems - ammo was PMC ball
This prompted him to call his Glock POC and fill him in - the guy said a fix 'might' be in the works
This guy also said Glock WILL NOT stop producing the gen 3 guns
Also ref a Vickers Tactical/Tangodown mag catch for the Gen 4 Glocks - we are going to look hard at it; we think it may be enough of an improvement to do it
That's all for now - almost done filming this seasons Tactical Arms so back to work
Cheers
LAV
Crow Hunter
04-30-10, 07:24
Thank you Mr. Vickers.
I had been wondering about the Gen III production status.
crowkiller
04-30-10, 07:32
Thanks for the update!
Thanks for the update Larry! It's good to hear they're going to keep going with the Gen3s.
crowkiller
04-30-10, 07:43
Can you tell what kind of problems the two Gen 4 G17's had in Mr. Hackathorn's class?
Moose-Knuckle
04-30-10, 07:47
Again, much appreciation for your input on the subject. I'm glad to hear GLOCK may work on a "fix" for the gen4 9mms. Also good to know that they are keeping the Gen 3s!
Thanks for the update and please keep them coming.
C4
Jay Cunningham
04-30-10, 07:56
Thanks for the info Larry!
gtmtnbiker98
04-30-10, 08:59
I will echo, thanks for the input.
madisonsfinest
04-30-10, 09:02
Good info. I get my Gen4 17 today, and I will lock the slide for a week as well.
SWATcop556
04-30-10, 09:04
Good to know. I still want to pick up a Gen4 to put through it's paces but I'm glad to hear that the Gen3 will be staying around (at least for the time being).
what is the purpose of locking the slide back for a week?
The people who are having problems, are they having them right out of the box, or after so many rounds? I have a low round count out of mine (400) and haven't had any problems yet.
Thanks
what is the purpose of locking the slide back for a week?
To reduce the strength (tension) on the spring.
C4
The people who are having problems, are they having them right out of the box, or after so many rounds? I have a low round count out of mine (400) and haven't had any problems yet.
Thanks
From reading the other posts about the GEN 4 9mm's, it appears to be early on when the recoil spring is the strongest.
In the class that Ken taught, the shooters could have been limp wristing the guns and might have nothing to do with the springs.
Ken is stopping in our shop today so I will see if I can get any more details from him.
C4
Littlelebowski
04-30-10, 10:00
The people who are having problems, are they having them right out of the box, or after so many rounds? I have a low round count out of mine (400) and haven't had any problems yet.
Thanks
I had my problems all with UMC ammo in the first 300 rds or so. Now it runs everything I feed it perfectly. Wish I had some Wolf to run through it. I have taken it to one class and it ran perfectly for me and a couple other guys on this forum.
To reduce the strength (tension) on the spring.
C4
that's what I suspected but doesn't that kind of go against modern theory of spring fatigue?
over and over again, I have been assured that leaving a mag loaded will not fatigue a spring but it is only the cycles of operation that can do that.
what am I not getting? :confused:
that's what I suspected but doesn't that kind of go against modern theory of spring fatigue?
over and over again, I have been assured that leaving a mag loaded will not fatigue a spring but it is only the cycles of operation that can do that.
what am I not getting? :confused:
Using a mag (cycling) and keeping a mag loaded and letting it sit (are two different things). Compressing the spring (by locking the slide back) will cause it to take a "set" are reduce its power.
C4
that's what I suspected but doesn't that kind of go against modern theory of spring fatigue?
over and over again, I have been assured that leaving a mag loaded will not fatigue a spring but it is only the cycles of operation that can do that.
what am I not getting? :confused:
This was my first thought as well.
Using a mag (cycling) and keeping a mag loaded and letting it sit (are two different things). Compressing the spring (by locking the slide back) will cause it to take a "set" are reduce its power.
C4
But would not "using the mag (cycling)" equate to firing the weapon? This would be compressing and uncompressing the sping?
"Compressing the spring (by locking the slide back)" would equate to storing a loaded magazine, a static condition, no?
This was my first thought as well.
But would not "using the mag (cycling)" equate to firing the weapon? This would be compressing and uncompressing the sping?
"Compressing the spring (by locking the slide back)" would equate to storing a loaded magazine, a static condition, no?
Firing the weapon does cycle it and DOES wear down the spring. This is also likely causing you to deal with malfunctions. So by storing the slide to the rear, you are most likely causing the spring to take a set faster.
Make sense?
C4
Firing the weapon does cycle it and DOES wear down the spring. This is most also likely causing you to deal with malfunctions. So by storing the slide to the rear, you are simulating shooting the gun a lot.
Make sense?
C4
I understand that by cycling the slide, the spring is compressing and decompressing, causing wear.
What I don't understand, is how storing the slide locked will simulate shooting it.
Does storing a loaded magazine simulate cycling the spring?
I am not trying to be obtuse, but I am not following...
I had my problems all with UMC ammo in the first 300 rds or so. Now it runs everything I feed it perfectly. Wish I had some Wolf to run through it. I have taken it to one class and it ran perfectly for me and a couple other guys on this forum.
I'm one of those guys without issue too. :)
1300rds. of various kinds, weak to NATO spec, not a single problem yet. When the Gen4 G19 hits the shelves one will be mine.
The Gen4 G22 is doing the same.
I understand that by cycling the slide, the spring is compressing and decompressing, causing wear.
What I don't understand, is how storing the slide locked will simulate shooting it.
Does storing a loaded magazine simulate cycling the spring?
I am not trying to be obtuse, but I am not following...
Compressing the spring is more than likely shortening it slightly and creating a "set."
This is just a best guess. It does appear to work though.
C4
Dragon Slayer
04-30-10, 12:34
Why would anybody in normal day to day use of a gun store the gun with its slide locked back for any length of time? I also understand that doing that is to simulate a gun that has seen a lot of use with springs that have lost some of its strength but I have had Glocks of 9, 40 and 45 calibers and shot thousands of rounds through each of them and the only gun that I experienced a weak spring with was my Glock 27 after over 5000 rounds.
If you do not want any problems with your Glock related to springs, change your springs every year or after 10,000 rounds with the full size or compact Glocks (19, 17,23, 22, 30, 21) and every 5,000 rounds if it is a sub compact Glock (27, 26, 36), That is what some Police armorers do to the duty pistols if they need it or not.
There also is a method to test spring tension which will be hard for me to explain but maybe someone else can do better.
A Glock Gen4 17 that was being tested by SPD has had thousands of rounds without any failures through it in the last month with a variety of ammo and the same with a Glock Gen4 22.
If the springs are very stiff and the ammo is under powered like UMC or PMC ammo is, then you might experience problems, a friend of mine had huge problems with his Browning Hi Power and UMC ammo until he switched springs and now it works.
Crow Hunter
04-30-10, 13:11
It is technically way more complicated than this but here is the way I understand it.
All springs "take a set". The physics behind "taking a set" are beyond me so I won't even try.
There are 2 different forms of "wear" on a spring. Fatigue wear from cycling and inelastic deformation from over extension or over compression.
Springs have manufacturing tolerances the same as anything else and will vary in "k factor" so you can't rely on a give spring having exactly the spring rate that you need.
A good designer takes this into account and thus when initially manufactured the spring will usually be longer than it's specificied free length for its operating parameters and thus "stronger" than normal because the uncompressed free length will be longer. That way within your normal process variation you won't wind up with springs that are "too weak" and quickly go below your operating parameters.
So when a magazine or a gun is new, it is generally slightly oversprung and over time it will wear into its operating range.
When you lock the slide back you are getting close to "over compressing" the spring slightly (if it is on the high side of the spec) and if you leave it like that long enough, it will "take a set" and begin operating within its design parameters.
I would guess that with it being a dual captured spring system originally desgined to withstand 40 S&W slide velocities it might be even more to the "stronger" than normal range when new.\
But it has been nearly 15 years since I messed with this though so you might just want to ignore me.:D
It is technically way more complicated than this but here is the way I understand it.
All springs "take a set". The physics behind "taking a set" are beyond me so I won't even try.
There are 2 different forms of "wear" on a spring. Fatigue wear from cycling and inelastic deformation from over extension or over compression.
Springs have manufacturing tolerances the same as anything else and will vary in "k factor" so you can't rely on a give spring having exactly the spring rate that you need.
A good designer takes this into account and thus when initially manufactured the spring will usually be longer than it's specificied free length for its operating parameters and thus "stronger" than normal because the uncompressed free length will be longer. That way within your normal process variation you won't wind up with springs that are "too weak" and quickly go below your operating parameters.
So when a magazine or a gun is new, it is generally slightly oversprung and over time it will wear into its operating range.
When you lock the slide back you are getting close to "over compressing" the spring slightly (if it is on the high side of the spec) and if you leave it like that long enough, it will "take a set" and begin operating within its design parameters.
I would guess that with it being a dual captured spring system originally desgined to withstand 40 S&W slide velocities it might be even more to the "stronger" than normal range when new.\
But it has been nearly 15 years since I messed with this though so you might just want to ignore me.:D
That makes sense. Thinking about it, when changing springs on a car, they will settle too after a bit...
I would love to hear Larry Vickers elaborate on what he thought of the recoil dynamics and trigger as well some time on this.
I didn't lock my slide back etc but have had 1500 trouble free rounds through it thus far.
Between this pistol and my new Pro 9, I've discovered that although smaller grips "feel" better to me, the large inserts are shooting better for me. Then following the NFL draft I learned about the measurements of quarterback hands - the span from thumb tip to pinkie tip. My fingers are relatively long it seems so the larger grips are making sense. There are apparently some leverage dynamics for different hands with different pistols that I had never appreciated before I got these adjustable pistols. And I had dismissed this topic for years. huh.
It is technically way more complicated than this but here is the way I understand it.
All springs "take a set". The physics behind "taking a set" are beyond me so I won't even try.
There are 2 different forms of "wear" on a spring. Fatigue wear from cycling and inelastic deformation from over extension or over compression.
Springs have manufacturing tolerances the same as anything else and will vary in "k factor" so you can't rely on a give spring having exactly the spring rate that you need.
A good designer takes this into account and thus when initially manufactured the spring will usually be longer than it's specificied free length for its operating parameters and thus "stronger" than normal because the uncompressed free length will be longer. That way within your normal process variation you won't wind up with springs that are "too weak" and quickly go below your operating parameters.
So when a magazine or a gun is new, it is generally slightly oversprung and over time it will wear into its operating range.
When you lock the slide back you are getting close to "over compressing" the spring slightly (if it is on the high side of the spec) and if you leave it like that long enough, it will "take a set" and begin operating within its design parameters.
I would guess that with it being a dual captured spring system originally desgined to withstand 40 S&W slide velocities it might be even more to the "stronger" than normal range when new.\
But it has been nearly 15 years since I messed with this though so you might just want to ignore me.:D
well if that is so, then this must also be the case with magazine springs. I'm not arguing that it isn't but for all the years I've been a shooter what I've heard is that storing a magazine fully loaded does not affect the spring.
if your explanation is correct, then it might be more accurate to say that storing a mag fully loaded will not cause it any additional weakening beyond the initial "set", correct?...
That makes sense. Thinking about it, when changing springs on a car, they will settle too after a bit...
but is this because of the weight of the car, or because of the fatigue wear from cycling as it's being driven?
Crow Hunter said "There are 2 different forms of "wear" on a spring. Fatigue wear from cycling and inelastic deformation from over extension or over compression."
it doesn't seem to me that a car simply sitting on its springs could be considered "over compression"...
Assy Mcgee
04-30-10, 18:50
Thank you Mr. Vickers.
I had been wondering about the Gen III production status.
the glock gen III's are the most popular pistols in the world. for glock to discontinue them would be a disastrous business decision. they're not going anywhere.
Assy Mcgee
04-30-10, 18:51
Quick update;
the G17 Gen 4 I got for the show has ran great BUT I locked the slide to the rear in the box for about a week
My guess is that is a must
My bro Hackathorn just did a class and two Gen 4 G17's had mega problems - ammo was PMC ball
This prompted him to call his Glock POC and fill him in - the guy said a fix 'might' be in the works
This guy also said Glock WILL NOT stop producing the gen 3 guns
Also ref a Vickers Tactical/Tangodown mag catch for the Gen 4 Glocks - we are going to look hard at it; we think it may be enough of an improvement to do it
That's all for now - almost done filming this seasons Tactical Arms so back to work
Cheers
LAV
any word on the frame damage pics? have you seen this as well?
Actually, what is being discussed is stress relaxation and is a function of stress level and time. Increasing temperature reduces yield strength and the amount of time to take a given "set".
Some magazines are designed such that they can be loaded for decades and have sufficient remaining spring force to function properly, higher capacity magazines typically operate at higher stress levels and have an associated shorter service life for the spring.
Storing a new Glock with the slide locked backed simulates many, many cycles of compression with regard to stress relaxation.
Stress on any given spring is a function of displacement in relation to it's free length (another reason springs take a greater set early in their life in a given application). For instance, the more rounds you put in a magazine, the more stress the spring is under, and therefore, the more force it exerts. This is why it is easier to seat an AR magazine at 28 rounds than at 30. The spring will also last longer at 28 than at 30. The reason for this is that as the stress level goes up the loss of stress per unit time increases non-linearly (faster). And, of note, different materials have different curves at different temperatures, leading to selection and design choices to optimize function.
"Resting" or rotating mags does nothing other than extend the calendar time it takes them to accumulate enough hours to lose sufficient stress/spring force to become poorly functioning.
The mechanics of materials that drives this behavior is stress induced movement of the metallic grains along their interlocking boundaries, this movement relieves the stress. Elevated temperatures allow the grains to shift more easily and therefore accelerate stress relaxation.
Actually, what is being discussed is stress relaxation and is a function of stress level and time. Increasing temperature reduces yield strength and the amount of time to take a given "set".
Some magazines are designed such that they can be loaded for decades and have sufficient remaining spring force to function properly, higher capacity magazines typically operate at higher stress levels and have an associated shorter service life for the spring.
Storing a new Glock with the slide locked backed simulates many, many cycles of compression with regard to stress relaxation.
Stress on any given spring is a function of displacement in relation to it's free length (another reason springs take a greater set early in their life in a given application). For instance, the more rounds you put in a magazine, the more stress the spring is under, and therefore, the more force it exerts. This is why it is easier to seat an AR magazine at 28 rounds than at 30. The spring will also last longer at 28 than at 30. The reason for this is that as the stress level goes up the loss of stress per unit time increases non-linearly (faster). And, of note, different materials have different curves at different temperatures, leading to selection and design choices to optimize function.
"Resting" or rotating mags does nothing other than extend the calendar time it takes them to accumulate enough hours to lose sufficient stress/spring force to become poorly functioning.
The mechanics of materials that drives this behavior is stress induced movement of the metallic grains along their interlocking boundaries, this movement relieves the stress. Elevated temperatures allow the grains to shift more easily and therefore accelerate stress relaxation.
Now class this has been your Physics lesson for the day.
If he broke out Hooke's law or something I was going to have to smack myself thinking I was sitting in labs all over again!!;)
Crow Hunter
04-30-10, 19:17
spr1 said it better and typed it faster than I did.
Its been too long since my Mechanics of Materials classes and all my designing has been wood, aluminum and vinyl. :)
Engineers rule!!!
Assy Mcgee
04-30-10, 19:59
Actually, what is being discussed is stress relaxation and is a function of stress level and time.
don't forget to mention it only seems to afflict gen4's with such severity ;)
I am so underwhelmed with the Gen4 that words fail me. And, I have damn near been taking the Glock Kool-aid introvenously for the last two decades. The icing on the cake was talking to an incredibly arrogant Glock customer service guy the other day when he stated that he had heard nothing about a redesigned spring, etc. and could not imagine why they would change anything when it was working so well. I was glad to learn in this thread that someone higher up knows that something needs correction. It boggles my mind that they changed the 17's operating dynamics to begin with when there was nothing wrong.
PS. Someone could take that Hitler youtube video and make a hilarious take on "you changed what???????"
Robb Jensen
04-30-10, 20:50
Compressing the spring is more than likely shortening it slightly and creating a "set."
This is just a best guess. It does appear to work though.
C4
It also worked in making the ban compliant 10 round mags accept the 10th round more easlily during the AWB 1994-2004. Load 10 rounds and leave it that way for 2 weeks before using. It also helped with better feeding if you used a 9mm1 or 9mm3 follower in a Glock 10 round Glock 17 or Glock 19 mag.
It works for Glock 27 mags to allow that 9th round to actually go in. Load 8 rounds and in two weeks unload the mag and put in 9 rounds.
All springs take a set. Some much more than others. Chrome silicone the least. I consider springs a wear item, much like belts, hoses, brake fluid, trans fluid and motor oil in automobile engines. Keep the springs fresh and lots of guns run for a LONG time. I change springs typically and 1/2 the intervals that the manufacturers recommend.......call me crazy. Springs are cheap. Oil/grease are cheap. I'm also kind of anal about breakage of parts. If I break a locking block in a Glock I replace all 3 slide pins, the slide lock (not the slide stop lever) and the slide lock spring and recoil spring. When I change recoil springs I change the striker spring, firing pin, & extractor spring, it's overkill but everything works as a system. I replace mag springs annually.
Littlelebowski
04-30-10, 20:51
I am so underwhelmed with the Gen4 that words fail me. And, I have damn near been taking the Glock Kool-aid introvenously for the last two decades. The icing on the cake was talking to an incredibly arrogant Glock customer service guy the other day when he stated that he had heard nothing about a redesigned spring, etc. and could not imagine why they would change anything when it was working so well. I was glad to learn in this thread that someone higher up knows that something needs correction. It boggles my mind that they changed the 17's operating dynamics to begin with when there was nothing wrong.
How many rounds do you have through Gen4 Glocks?
Hackathorn stopped in today for some AR parts. We talked about the class where he saw the two Gen4 G17's. I asked him if the shooters were limp wristing the guns. He said that they were both very strong shooters (meaning skilled) so it was purely the gun malfunctioning. He said that it was so bad that he doesn't feel that he can recommend them (at this time).
We also talked about the Gen4 G19 and the fact they will most likely have an even bigger issue than the G17 because of their lighter slide. This was pure speculation/opinion so take it for what it's worth.
C4
It also worked in making the ban compliant 10 round mags accept the 10th round more easlily during the AWB 1994-2004. Load 10 rounds and leave it that way for 2 weeks before using. It also helped with better feeding if you used a 9mm1 or 9mm3 follower in a Glock 10 round Glock 17 or Glock 19 mag.
It works for Glock 27 mags to allow that 9th round to actually go in. Load 8 rounds and in two weeks unload the mag and put in 9 rounds.
All springs take a set. Some much more than others. Chrome silicone the least. I consider springs a wear item, much like belts, hoses, brake fluid, trans fluid and motor oil in automobile engines. Keep the springs fresh and lots of guns run for a LONG time. I change springs typically and 1/2 the intervals that the manufacturers recommend.......call me crazy. Springs are cheap. Oil/grease are cheap. I'm also kind of anal about breakage of parts. If I break a locking block in a Glock I replace all 3 slide pins, the slide lock (not the slide stop lever) and the slide lock spring and recoil spring. When I change recoil springs I change the striker, firing pin, & extractor spring, it's overkill but everything works as a system. I replace mag springs annually.
Spring PM's are a must for sure.
C4
Hit 1700 rounds tonight through G4 G17. Smokin' good shooter it is.
I did confirm to my satisfaction that holding it loose about a half inch lower than normal high hold created a "limp wrist" stoppage. I've never even bothered to try this with my Gen 2s and Gen 3s but I will Sunday.
I guess I don't mind if Glock "fixes" this as they can't tinker with mine. ;)
My 1st G4 G17 I locked back the slide for a day or so. The 2nd I did not. This was before it was suggested here. No issues with either with all sorts of ammo. Yet a fair number of people seem to be having all kinds of issues with their G4's. I have no idea what to make of that other than perhaps some inconsistencies in manufacturing.
I see Glocks numbers are up.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/04/29/glock-announces-substantial-growth/
"Glock, Inc. is extremely pleased with the increase in both sales and market share for 2010 and have broken all previous sales records. These sales were strengthened by our newest generation in pistols, the Glock 22 Gen4 and the Glock 17 Gen4," explained Vice President Gary Fletcher. "The Gen4 technology has enhanced our product line with several new design features and we await the release of the Glock 23 Gen4 and Glock 19 Gen4 this summer.
Additionally, Glock is expanding its operations here in the United States with manufacturing and exporting of our product made in the U.S. Our current orders are very strong and we expect to maintain this momentum throughout fiscal year 2011.
Glock, Inc. stays committed to producing the most reliable and durable products for more than 65% of Local, State and Federal Law Enforcement agencies in the United States. Being first to implement the new Gen4 platform has been an easy decision for a few agencies. The Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office in Tampa, Florida, the Charleston Police Department in Charleston, West Virginia, the Kenosha Police Department in Kenosha, Wisconsin and the Madison County Sheriff's Office in Edwardsville, Illinois have enthusiastically adopted the new Gen4 pistol."
Magic_Salad0892
05-01-10, 04:27
My Gen4 17 is running like a ****in' champ.
Thanks for the info LAV, any info on the frame wear? Mine has none to speak of, I've heard some others have had it bad though.
Littlelebowski
05-01-10, 09:58
I'd like to hear Larry's thoughts on how it shoots and handles.
I had no idea they were doing a Gen 4 17. I hope the reply about the Gen 3 remaining in production is TRUE!
My Gen 4 G17 only has just over 500 rounds so not much of a test but it has NOT malfunctions once. I have shot Blazer, Winchester white box, Federal ball from walmart and Atlanta Arms gamer loads. Most without a light. So far so good.
Only 1/4 joking: Anyone wish to sell their Gen IV Model 17?? I'll definitely take it off of your hands.
Mine runs like a gazelle. No issues of fast, hard 1300 rounds. I will say this, however. The first magazine or two had "several failure to feeds". This was with BallistiClean ammo which also creates issues in my P30 so I shrugged it off. I did not witness this because as I was filling out the paperwork my buddies took it out and shot it. The thing eats/feed/extracts/ejects everything. The hotter it is the better (obviously, with the heavy spring force close to lockup).
Do as LAV suggests, guys, and move on. If you still cannot live with it let me "assist you". Please.
the glock gen III's are the most popular pistols in the world. for glock to discontinue them would be a disastrous business decision. they're not going anywhere.
yeah true..
so glock finally is producing 2 lines of pistols :D they must be the last manufacturer to start doing this.
Littlelebowski
05-01-10, 14:10
1200.
And you don't think there's a noticeable difference in the recoil characteristics? Are you going to get rid of the pistol?
tenpointer
05-01-10, 14:19
Had same FTC problems discussed out of the box with wolf, Winchester and federal ball. Two very experienced and one novice as shooters. left the slide back one week and shot with no issues, and then locked back one more week. Next session tried to limp wrist a malfunction to no avail. As a Southpaw the initial problems with FTf beat the crappy mag release of the generation 3 model.
Littlelebowski
05-01-10, 14:41
Next session tried to limp wrist a malfunction to no avail.
VERY interesting, thanks! What ammo were you using?
"And you don't think there's a noticeable difference in the recoil characteristics? Are you going to get rid of the pistol?"
I don't want a Glock that requires a break in, because that is foreign to my prior experience. For the first few hundred rounds, even +p landed beside my right foot from dribbling out of the port. Sure, it ejects farther now, almost as far as a Gen 3, but the gun was marginal when new, and is less confidence inspiring now than any of my other Glocks ever were, for a variety of reasons.
So...
It is on a consignment shelf.
Why would anybody in normal day to day use of a gun store the gun with its slide locked back for any length of time? I also understand that doing that is to simulate a gun that has seen a lot of use with springs that have lost some of its strength but I have had Glocks of 9, 40 and 45 calibers and shot thousands of rounds through each of them and the only gun that I experienced a weak spring with was my Glock 27 after over 5000 rounds.
If you do not want any problems with your Glock related to springs, change your springs every year or after 10,000 rounds with the full size or compact Glocks (19, 17,23, 22, 30, 21) and every 5,000 rounds if it is a sub compact Glock (27, 26, 36), That is what some Police armorers do to the duty pistols if they need it or not.
There also is a method to test spring tension which will be hard for me to explain but maybe someone else can do better.
A Glock Gen4 17 that was being tested by SPD has had thousands of rounds without any failures through it in the last month with a variety of ammo and the same with a Glock Gen4 22.
If the springs are very stiff and the ammo is under powered like UMC or PMC ammo is, then you might experience problems, a friend of mine had huge problems with his Browning Hi Power and UMC ammo until he switched springs and now it works.
Actually, Glock's recommendation on recoil spring assembly replacement is every 3K for Gen 3 (and previous) Glocks, and every 7K for Gen4 Glocks.
That said, I believe that the 9mm Gen 3 (and earlier) Glocks (especially the G17s) are capable for running for a considerably longer period/round count without operational difficulties. With all other calibers, I'd suggest there are considerable advantages to adhering to the Glock replacement interval recommendation.
Best, Jon
Assy Mcgee
05-01-10, 17:36
Actually, Glock's recommendation on recoil spring assembly replacement is every 3K for Gen 3 (and previous) Glocks, and every 7K for Gen4 Glocks.
That said, I believe that the 9mm Gen 3 (and earlier) Glocks (especially the G17s) are capable for running for a considerably longer period/round count without operational difficulties. With all other calibers, I'd suggest there are considerable advantages to adhering to the Glock replacement interval recommendation.
Best, Jon
i called glock and asked them. this is what they told me as to changing out the recoil springs in the GEN III's:
2,500 rounds for 40cal, & 5,000 rounds for 9mm. although either one can go far beyond those numbers ;)
QuickStrike
05-01-10, 18:25
Partially because of this thread, I just bought a glock 17 today. Gen 3 though. :cool:
Assy Mcgee
05-01-10, 18:34
Partially because of this thread, I just bought a glock 17 today. Gen 3 though. :cool:
i'm thinking about the gen3 g17 rtf2......:D
tenpointer
05-01-10, 20:12
Wal mart 115 gr FMJ Federal on my second week of leaving the slide locked back.
madisonsfinest
05-01-10, 20:18
I just picked up my G4 17 today. I hope to get it to the range Monday.
I really don't see why Glock would keep producing the Gen 3 handguns.
The only reason I could see is so they can keep Gens 1-3 serviced since the Gen4 is not compatible across the board.
Assy Mcgee
05-01-10, 20:57
I really don't see why Glock would keep producing the Gen 3 handguns.
The only reason I could see is so they can keep Gens 1-3 serviced since the Gen4 is not compatible across the board.
i would say a reason is that it's 99%of their business right now. after all, the gen3's are the most popular pistols in the world. ;)
Littlelebowski
05-01-10, 21:06
I put another 400 rds through my Gen4 Glock 17 this evening at the NRA range in Fairfax VA. Used 100 rds of American Eagle and all of the rest was Remington UMC green/white box bulk 115 gr ammo with maybe 5 mags wortt of Blazer. No malfunctions, which brings the current count of rounds since the malfunctions within the first 300 rds to 1500 rds plus or minus 50 or so. This includes one shooting class (ToddG's "Get SOM" class where a few individuals fired this weapon after we were done with the class. The weapon ran flawlessly in the class.)
I intentionally tried to make the weapon malfunction via "limp wristing." I used the weakest grip I could while retaining control of the weapon. The weapon did not malfunction. During this test, Remington UMC ball ammo was used and it functioned perfectly. Please excuse the poor quality of the video; I was shooting video with my iPhone from my other hand.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/th_IMG_0764-1.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/?action=view¤t=IMG_0764-1.flv)
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/th_IMG_0765-1.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/?action=view¤t=IMG_0765-1.flv)
Picked up my Gen4 G17 on 4/15/10 and as of 4/29/10 I am at 1700 rounds through it (all Federal Am Eagle 124gr ball). Just over 1K without light and just under 700 w/ light. No issues as of yet. So far I have done a 3.5 w/standard spring, extended slide release and a set of TruGlo fiber optic sights. Very accurate and very smooth. Does feel a bit lighter on the recoil vs my G34. I don't discount any of the reported problems that I have heard about, but I haven't experienced any yet. I also don't personally know anyone else running a Gen4, so I haven't personally seen anything else good or bad.
I would like a Gen4 G19 when they hit and won't be afraid to purchase one. I am not sure that I would give them my thumbs up approval as a recommendation quite yet, but would offer my own experience and acknowledge reported potential issues.
My Gen4 G17 running the Hackathorn Standards Drill. This is right at the 1700 round mark. Shooter might need some help, but the pistol is doing its job and runs like a champ, so far anyway. :)
Hackathorn Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp-1Sd6Ums4)
Hackathorn Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoxLQWMQaaU)
John_Wayne777
05-01-10, 21:27
I'd like to hear Larry's thoughts on how it shoots and handles.
We're in class with him this weekend. I'll ask...and hopefully get some trigger time on his gun.
Heavy Metal
05-01-10, 21:33
I really don't see why Glock would keep producing the Gen 3 handguns.
The only reason I could see is so they can keep Gens 1-3 serviced since the Gen4 is not compatible across the board.
They have the tooling bought and paid for and plenty of orders for the product. Might as well use it.
varoadking
05-01-10, 23:55
I wouldn't exactly call myself a "strong" shooter, and I have yet to have a single failure of any kind in my Gen4 G17 thru maybe 1,000 rounds...
Larry Vickers
05-02-10, 06:01
To answer a question directed to me I have not seen any frame durability/cracking issues and had not even heard of it until I read it here
I just saw a gen 3 RTF straight grasping groove G19 in a gun store last week
If they do that treatment to a G17 and delete the fish scales on the slide THAT will be the gun I would choose hands down over the G17 gen 4
And remember that is coming from someone who likes the smaller trigger reach of the gen 4
just sayin ......
LAV
Magic_Salad0892
05-02-10, 06:46
Hey LAV,
My Glock 17 RTF2 doesn't have fish scales, and the grooves aren't pronounced at all. They're there though, a little. From the factory.
jdavis6576
05-02-10, 09:27
I just saw a gen 3 RTF straight grasping groove G19 in a gun store last week
LAV
I bought that very pistol on Friday. I plan on going to the range this afternoon, I don't expect any surprises. I did put a Ghost 3.5 connector in it, added a Vickers Mag Release, G17 smooth trigger, and Warren Two-Dot sights. I also sanded down the grips a little so my side won't look like I lost a fight with a cheese shredder. Should be the same ol' boring G19...:D
Robb Jensen
05-02-10, 09:50
I just saw a gen 3 RTF straight grasping groove G19 in a gun store last week
If they do that treatment to a G17 and delete the fish scales on the slide THAT will be the gun I would choose hands down over the G17 gen 4
And remember that is coming from someone who likes the smaller trigger reach of the gen 4
just sayin ......
LAV
LAV,
From what I've heard directly from Glock was that the RTFs are supposed to eventually all have normal slide serrations in the future on G17s, G22, G19s and 23s. The G19 and 23 RTFs never had the goofy fish scales serrations to begin with. I guess they had lots of complaints about those. They simply suck.
Dragon Slayer
05-02-10, 10:01
I have a Glock 19 RTF2 and it has the regular slide serrations not the fish scale ones. As I said I would buy a Gen4 Glock 19 tomorrow if I needed one with out any hesitation.
I put another 400 rds through my Gen4 Glock 17 this evening at the NRA range in Fairfax VA.
Don't let them catch you doing a video or taking pictures, they're generally pretty strict about that.
I'll admit that I was one of the ones that thought there was no way Glock was going to continue producing Gen3 guns along side the Gen4 models but I'm glad to hear they're still planning on making them!
While I'm not completely sold on the Gen4s yet (I'll need to shoot one first) I am happy to hear this news.
9 mm Glock's appeal and value to many was "off the shelf, ready to go with any ammo, shootable platform". I personally purchased my Glock 19 just to be familiar with a pistol that I could buy - figuratively [and, in some parts, literally] - on every corner, load with whatever ammo available, and carry, should I find myself away from my own pistols and ammo. I am glad to see that most, if not all, Gen 4 users don't have much of problems beyond initial break-in, and many don't have any problems at all, but, like it or not, that "off the shelf good to go" rep is now questionable, at least for me. As much as I am interested to hear high-round count reports of well-functioning Gen 4s, I am much more interested in reports how these perform when just out of the box. Given that this has been a non-issue with Gen 3, I think discontinuing Gen 3 would be plain dumb.
I just added my G4G17 to the 2K round test on this board. Mine ran 100% from new in box with no lube added to what came from the factory. The firm Gen 4 trigger has grown on me and I don't intend to modify it.
The stout recoil spring got me to thinkin' (at risk to the team -see Bull Durham). And in some informal experimentation, I found, to my satisfaction, that my Gen 4 g17 is more resistant to being pushed out of battery into a non-firing condition than my Gen 3s in simulations of firing from muzzle in contact with a target i.e contact gunshot wound during a hands on struggle. This shouldn't be earth shaking I suppose. It's a good bit harder to rack the slide.
Assy Mcgee
05-02-10, 13:17
LAV,
From what I've heard directly from Glock was that the RTFs are supposed to eventually all have normal slide serrations in the future on G17s, G22, G19s and 23s. The G19 and 23 RTFs never had the goofy fish scales serrations to begin with. I guess they had lots of complaints about those. They simply suck.
the RTF2's with the "standard" straight serrations have been in local gunshops for several months now.
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Glock19RTF.jpg
Assy Mcgee
05-02-10, 13:21
there's even a limited run glock 21 RTF2 SF that's been available for a while now at online venders.
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/450/glock1a.jpg
Robb Jensen
05-02-10, 13:35
the RTF2's with the "standard" straight serrations have been in local gunshops for several months now.
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Glock19RTF.jpg
You posted a pic of a G19 RTF. The G19/23 RTFs have only been available with standard slide serrations never the fish scales.....I think you might have misread my post ;).
LAV,
From what I've heard directly from Glock was that the RTFs are supposed to eventually all have normal slide serrations in the future on G17s, G22, G19s and 23s. The G19 and 23 RTFs never had the goofy fish scales serrations to begin with. I guess they had lots of complaints about those. They simply suck.
They did initially...not sure for how long but they did have them:
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4041/glock19rtf2nyb173.jpg
Robb Jensen
05-02-10, 13:47
They did initially...not sure for how long but they did have them:
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4041/glock19rtf2nyb173.jpg
Wow, I stand corrected, we sell a metric sh**-load of Glocks and have never seen a G19 RTF with the fish scales serrations, rare as hen teeth I guess.
There are supposed to be some G19 Gen 1 guns to but I've never seen one.
there's even a limited run glock 21 RTF2 SF that's been available for a while now at online venders.
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/450/glock1a.jpg
OH that's HOT!
There are supposed to be some G19 Gen 1 guns to but I've never seen one.
I've seen one :D
Assy Mcgee
05-02-10, 14:18
You posted a pic of a G19 RTF. The G19/23 RTFs have only been available with standard slide serrations never the fish scales.....I think you might have misread my post ;).
i posted a picture of the Glock GEN3 RTF2 with straight serrations. it's in the back of the glock 2010 annual, and has been on sale for a while now. you can still get the "fish gill" serrattions however.
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/9152/rtf2glockmagazine2010.jpg
Assy Mcgee
05-02-10, 14:28
OH that's HOT!
i like it too! they were a LE contract overrun. ed's public safety and other online vender had them for a while, not sure if you can still find 'em though.
i like it too! they were a LE contract overrun. ed's public safety and other online vender had them for a while, not sure if you can still find 'em though.
If they made that configuration in the G20SF I'd buy one right now!
Assy Mcgee
05-02-10, 14:40
If they made that configuration in the G20SF I'd buy one right now!
glock should make that! i think a lot of folks would appreciate the RTF2 texture on the 10mm.
i traded my g19 gen3 rtf for the rtf2 with fish gills. i like the aggressive grip texture better, plus the fish gill serrations are machined deeper and easier to grip for me because i only slingshot. :)
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/champop1911/Pic4145020.jpg
Heavy Metal
05-02-10, 16:04
If they made that configuration in the G20SF I'd buy one right now!
....and I would get the one behind it.
rocket 442
05-02-10, 17:05
Partially because of this thread, I just bought a glock 17 today. Gen 3 though. :cool:
I did too. G17RTF Gen 3. Should be here tomorrow. Also got a new Gen 3 G19 olive drab frame.Sold a NIB Gen 4 G22 & used G23C to get these.Thank You to Mr. Vickers for a real world professional assessment on what works & what doesn't !
I ran down to my local fun shop to pick up a case of 9mm (The Armory is selling PMC 9mm for $219.99 per case) and check out the following;
G21SF - I really liked it and can't wait to score a G20SF
G22RTF - Very nice texturing! I'm going to be on the lookout for a G17 & G19 RTF with regular slide grooves (not the fish scales)
Gen4 G22 - WOW! I really liked the feel of this configuration! The shorter distance to the trigger seems to make a big difference for my little paws.
Jay Cunningham
05-02-10, 19:29
G21SF - I really liked it and can't wait to score a G20SF
G22RTF - Very nice texturing! I'm going to be on the lookout for a G17 & G19 RTF with regular slide grooves (not the fish scales)
Gen4 G22 - WOW! I really liked the feel of this configuration! The shorter distance to the trigger seems to make a big difference for my little paws.
Flawed design.
Flawed design.
No doubt...and they choke miserably on cheap ammo and everyone except the iron fist of our good Lord limp wrists them constantly.
Heavy Metal
05-02-10, 19:44
Flawed design.
Seems I hve heard that phrase somewhere before recently:D
Assy Mcgee
05-02-10, 19:44
Flawed design.
agreed.
Assy Mcgee
05-02-10, 19:45
I ran down to my local fun shop to pick up a case of 9mm (The Armory is selling PMC 9mm for $219.99 per case) and check out the following;
G21SF - I really liked it and can't wait to score a G20SF
G22RTF - Very nice texturing! I'm going to be on the lookout for a G17 & G19 RTF with regular slide grooves (not the fish scales)
Gen4 G22 - WOW! I really liked the feel of this configuration! The shorter distance to the trigger seems to make a big difference for my little paws.
you should get an OD one. :)
Littlelebowski
05-02-10, 19:47
No doubt...and they choke miserably on cheap ammo and everyone except the iron fist of our good Lord limp wrists them constantly.
That's the first time I've been called that! :D
I'm still waiting to hear about how my limp wristing test is a fluke.
Littlelebowski
05-02-10, 19:47
agreed.
You're missing the joke.
Assy Mcgee
05-02-10, 20:01
You're missing the joke.
no, i'm familiar with the gen4.....:p
you should get an OD one. :)
Too my knowledge (and I'm not an industry insider by any stretch of the imagination) Glock has never made the SF frames in OD.
I've been looking for the past hour for one of those RTF G21SFs...
That's the first time I've been called that! :D
I'm still waiting to hear about how my limp wristing test is a fluke.
All kidding aside I'd really like to try and link up at the NRA range this week and shoot your Gen 4 G17. That thing really felt good in the paws.
Littlelebowski
05-02-10, 20:30
All kidding aside I'd really like to try and link up at the NRA range this week and shoot your Gen 4 G17. That thing really felt good in the paws.
As long as you say Hi to Nacho the Belgian Mal. He misses his drunken, abusive uncle :D
Magic_Salad0892
05-02-10, 20:34
I would love to see the Gen4 Glock 21.
That will be very interesting.
As long as you say Hi to Nacho the Belgian Mal. He misses his drunken, abusive uncle :D
Nacho can sniff my crotch anytime. I wasn't drunk when I was over at your house was I?
(It's quite possible but I don't remember drinking that night...maybe I had a Gin & Tonic or three but that doesn't count because I always drink those...am I thinking outloud?)
Assy Mcgee
05-02-10, 20:43
Nacho can sniff my crotch anytime.
:eek:
brushy bill
05-02-10, 21:33
any word on the frame damage pics? have you seen this as well?
I was a little concerned WRT same as my Gen 4 G17 has metal rails peeking through the polymer just like the one in the pics posted on this site...more showing on right side, but a little metal showing through on the left as well...identical. However, found this on another site and no longer bothered. Apparently, for the Gen1, Glock didn't even cover this area with polymer....hope it helps put some minds to ease.
Magic_Salad0892
05-02-10, 21:36
That's weird. My Gen4 has those areas covered in polymer. No metal showing.
... :I
Question about the gen 4's: Will they fit just fine in gen 3 holsters, specifically, a Raven Phantom? I'd like to go ahead and order one for a gen 3 G19 now so I don't have to wait when I finally get a gen 4 G19
Magic_Salad0892
05-03-10, 03:38
They'll fit well.
Littlelebowski
05-03-10, 08:28
Don't let them catch you doing a video or taking pictures, they're generally pretty strict about that.
I let the RSO next to me pop off 20 rds through my FAL :D
madisonsfinest
05-03-10, 18:59
Well I got to put a few rounds through a brand new G4 17 today. I started off with some +p+ ammo I had from about 2003 when I sold my gen 2 17. Holy crap I forgot how snappy the +p+ ammo was. I had just been shooting my G4 22 using Winchester White Box, and the +p+ was way more snappy! Any how after shooting about 35 rounds of +p+, I shot about 120 rounds of Winchester White Box and had 0 malfunctions through out. I did not keep the slide locked back for anytime because I figured I would do that only if I was having any issues. I did note that both the 17 and 22 have had the polymer worn through. It was not like this when they were new, but I'm not sure if it will ever be a problem. So far both the 22 and 17 have had 0 malfunctions.
wicked_police
05-03-10, 21:03
I got my Gen4 G17 last week and put 100 rounds(Winchester 147gr super unleaded) through it on Saturday. No issues at all, and I really like how it feels. I ran it without any back strap, and it feels good. The mag release is nice too.
147gr unleaded is pretty much all I'm going to run through the gun, aside from some other 147gr duty ammo(winchester sxt, federal hst, and remington golden saber). I've found the ammo to be totally reliable aside from some bad primers, and accurate, good enough for 1.5" or less in my 5946 and Sig 226.
It was just standing supported at 25m, but sometime this week or next I hope to run some drills and get the round count up around 1000.
I also have an RTF2 G17. I love the texture of the frame, much better than the regular frame on my G34. Have to get a Vickers extended mag release for the RTF2. :)
For 'feel', I'll take the RTF out with the Gen4 and compare them side by side next time I'm on the range.
One of my G4 G17's went over 3500 rds this weekend. No malfs still. The stock trigger is fine and I like the mag release. I can only hope the G4 G19 is as good as these. Put some Warrens on them and run. Too bad Todd isn't using this pistol for a torture test. Maybe we would find out why we are seeing such inconsistent reports.
Question about the gen 4's: Will they fit just fine in gen 3 holsters, specifically, a Raven Phantom? I'd like to go ahead and order one for a gen 3 G19 now so I don't have to wait when I finally get a gen 4 G19
Fits fine in my Ravens.
All the Gen4 issues that I've read or have heard reported are exactly the types of things one would expect from a gun with too strong of a recoil spring installed regardless of type, whether Glock, S_I, 1911, or whatever... more stove-pipes, more feeding issues, easier to limp-wrist, the problems increasing as the ammo PF goes lower...
Looks like the new stiffer recoil set-up works perfect in the Gen4 G22's with the .40's snap, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist (or even Mr.Vickers) to see it being an issue in a 9mm G17 shooting softer target FMJ.
The Gen3 22's and 17's left the factory with the same weight recoil springs too, and the 22's were ever so slightly under sprung (especially with a light on the rail) while the 17's worked great... seems Glock may have over corrected for that minor issue, only this time it's the 9mm's that suffered for them sharing the same spring set-up.
BTW, the fish gills were ugly, no argument there, but they did work better, and I for one am sorry to see them go...
Except plenty of people have not had those issues at all and used weak ammo during break in. Like me. So conjecture about what the strongers springs should or should not be doing does not answer why some are having issues and others aren't. I know a little about manufacturing and normally this kind of variance means inconsistent parts or assembly or inconsistent quality control. I'm just throwing that out there though because I have zero experience with firearms manufacturing. Plus I would want too see stats against a much larger data pool. I imagine Glock is gathering such info but I kinda doubt they intend to share it. ;)
I know a little about manufacturing and normally this kind of variance means inconsistent parts or assembly or inconsistent quality control. I'm just throwing that out there though because I have zero experience with firearms manufacturing. Plus I would want too see stats against a much larger data pool. I imagine Glock is gathering such info but I kinda doubt they intend to share it. ;)
That might be it, I used to run 13lb ISMI springs in my 9mm Glocks and out of 5 or so I had some were solid runners while a couple wouldn't reliably pull the gun tight into lock-up against a stock power striker spring... so I've seen first-hand that while they're supposed to be the same, having a bomb reliable gun or a one that stutters can depend on whether or not you happen to be on the lucky or unlucky end of the variances.
The other thing about the stiffer springs is you would think they would cause more muzzle flip but that doesn't seem to be the case as the pistol shoots very flat even with +P+ and it seems the G4 G22 does too.
Robb Jensen
05-04-10, 04:47
The other thing about the stiffer springs is you would think they would cause more muzzle flip but that doesn't seem to be the case as the pistol shoots very flat even with +P+ and it seems the G4 G22 does too.
Exactly. I this is due to the dual stages of the recoil spring. Generally a stiffer spring does contribute to more muzzle flip but this is common with guns with a single recoil spring. Something that helps a bunch is variable rate recoil springs.
Assy Mcgee
05-04-10, 04:56
Exactly. I this is due to the dual stages of the recoil spring. Generally a stiffer spring does contribute to more muzzle flip but this is common with guns with a single recoil spring. Something that helps a bunch is variable rate recoil springs.
how reliable are those variable power recoil springs in 1911's? is their reliability bullet grain weight specific?
John_Wayne777
05-04-10, 07:06
I fired Larry's gun at the class and it seemed, to me anyway, to have more muzzle flip than my M&P. I freely admit that it was about 4:00 on a day where we'd spent 8+ hours in direct sunlight in 95 degree heat, so I was a bit dehydrated, sunburned, and dreading a 5 hour drive to get home...take that impression FWIW.
I discovered that even with the smallest frame configuration on the gun (Mr. Vickers did not have any backstraps added to the pistol) I still ended up with slide bite.
The grip texture is a welcome upgrade from the Gen 3's slippery grip. I probably wouldn't need to add sandpaper to the gun.
Littlelebowski
05-04-10, 07:53
So how did it run at the class, JW777?
John_Wayne777
05-04-10, 08:33
We didn't shoot much pistol during the course, but I didn't see any malfunctions or problems with Mr. Vickers' pistol.
madisonsfinest
05-04-10, 14:16
I have a NY1 Trigger spring on my Gen 4's and I hope they break in, because this trigger pull is ridiculous
Littlelebowski
05-04-10, 14:18
I have a NY1 Trigger spring on my Gen 4's and I hope they break in, because this trigger pull is ridiculous
Put a 3.5lb connector in there.
I have a NY1 Trigger spring on my Gen 4's and I hope they break in, because this trigger pull is ridiculous
:D Duude. The stock Gen 4 trigger is stout enough. Why'd you do that? ;)
Littlelebowski
05-04-10, 14:56
:D Duude. The stock Gen 4 trigger is stout enough. Why'd you do that? ;)
Some of us have the refinement to appreciate a truly positive reset :D
madisonsfinest
05-04-10, 15:01
It's department policy where I work. They may have to rethink that with the Gen 4's
"Specifications for Primary Duty Firearm
The approved primary duty handguns for members of the department will be:
1. Glock Models 17 (9mm), 19 (9mm), 26 (9mm), 22 (.40 cal.), 23 (.40 cal.), 27
(.40), and 21 (.45 cal.) and 30 (.45 cal.) equipped with either the 8 lb. trigger
connector or the 5 lb. trigger connecter with the standard New York spring."
Some of us have the refinement to appreciate a truly positive reset :D
Damn! Like the stock Gen 4 reset isn't truly positive? I'll have to order the parts and finally try that combo soon.
Madison's Finest (the most patient police force in the world btw) yeah I sorta figured.
It's department policy where I work. They may have to rethink that with the Gen 4's
"Specifications for Primary Duty Firearm
The approved primary duty handguns for members of the department will be:
1. Glock Models 17 (9mm), 19 (9mm), 26 (9mm), 22 (.40 cal.), 23 (.40 cal.), 27
(.40), and 21 (.45 cal.) and 30 (.45 cal.) equipped with either the 8 lb. trigger
connector or the 5 lb. trigger connecter with the standard New York spring."
Eesh. At least you don't have the + connector I suppose...
Scarecrow01
05-04-10, 19:38
I know have 3500 rounds exactly through my Gen 4 G17 and I have zero malfunctions to report. Every round has been PMC Bronze 115 gr and that is a light load. After the first day of having some slide lock back failures, this weapon is consistant! It shoots flat, soft, and poa / poi with factory night sights is dead on. Now I have no idea why on all the M&P love, I bought a 9mm at the same time due to being bored and I was not impressed enough to even have it come to mind to want to switch from a glock to that weapon platform. Don't get me wrong, it's got a comfortable feel, accurate, and realiable, but I just don't see the reason for all the M&P hype.
Scarecrow01
05-04-10, 19:39
sorry hit the button twice.
I know have 3500 rounds exactly through my Gen 4 G17 and I have zero malfunctions to report. Every round has been PMC Bronze 115 gr and that is a light load. After the first day of having some slide lock back failures, this weapon is consistant! It shoots flat, soft, and poa / poi with factory night sights is dead on. Now I have no idea why on all the M&P love, I bought a 9mm at the same time due to being bored and I was not impressed enough to even have it come to mind to want to switch from a glock to that weapon platform. Don't get me wrong, it's got a comfortable feel, accurate, and realiable, but I just don't see the reason for all the M&P hype.
Its possible that some people (me included) just want an American product to be successful. It's a good gun. The problem many of us have noticed is what appears to be a clear bias going in one direction to the point that objectivety isnt present anymore.
Robb Jensen
05-05-10, 06:16
I know have 3500 rounds exactly through my Gen 4 G17 and I have zero malfunctions to report. Every round has been PMC Bronze 115 gr and that is a light load. After the first day of having some slide lock back failures, this weapon is consistant! It shoots flat, soft, and poa / poi with factory night sights is dead on. Now I have no idea why on all the M&P love, I bought a 9mm at the same time due to being bored and I was not impressed enough to even have it come to mind to want to switch from a glock to that weapon platform. Don't get me wrong, it's got a comfortable feel, accurate, and realiable, but I just don't see the reason for all the M&P hype.
I don't know if it's M&P love but I'd call the M&P pistol a step in the right direction it is a good handgun. S&W set out to make a pistol like a Glock but saw somethings Glock did and changed them (like locking block with integral frame rail for instance).
Is the M&P pistol the be all-end all handgun ?
Hell no.
Is the M&P better than the Glock?
I don't think so. In 9mm I do believe that Glocks are more proven and more durable at this time. I do think in .40 cal that the M&P40 is slightly better than a Glock 22 Gen 3, the Glock 22 Gen 4 may be better than the M&P40 and time will tell which is better. Glock was first imported here in what 1983? They've had a pretty big head start making striker fired guns. S&W and Glock are constantly evolving with updates to their parts....this is a good thing.
I find both handguns to be good. I own some of each and probably always will. I conceal carry a Glock 19 Gen 2 and at work I open carry a Glock 22 Gen 4.
As soon as the M&P40 Pro 5" comes out it'll replace my STI .40 2011 that I just sold. It will be my competition gun for USPSA Limited and Multi-gun division. It won't be USPSA Limited legal for a few months after it comes out so I'll be once again shooting Open division with an iron sighted pistol, maybe I'll make B class with it. I made C class (currently I'm at 54% in C Open) last year shooting Open Minor power factor with a M&P Pro 9mm (until it became Production legal).
***to be USPSA legal for Limited division the gun manufacturer has to sign a letter stated that they've made 500 copies of the particular model, for Production division they have to had made 2000 copies of that model.
Started having issues with my Gen4 G17. Tracking them here.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=53356
I'm at 4,000 on one of mine while the other has been neglected and only has 3k through it. Not problems of any kind to report. I'm fine with the stock trigger. This is another part that may have some variance though since so many complain about it. Then again I have a stock trigger on both of mine and I think they are fine. I like them better than the Gen 3 triggers as they feel stiffer sideways. I might go ahead and try the NY 1 and 3.5 since all the cool kids here are doing it. Now where the heck are the Gen 4 G19's and G34s?
I let the RSO next to me pop off 20 rds through my FAL :D
Figures you would be a FAL guy. ;)
I had quite a few M&P's for awhile and was a big proponent. Still am as far as recommendations go. To my surprise the Gen 4 Glock 17 switched me back. I like the simplicity, parts availability, finish, and trigger better.
I don't know if it's M&P love but I'd call the M&P pistol a step in the right direction it is a good handgun. S&W set out to make a pistol like a Glock but saw somethings Glock did and changed them (like locking block with integral frame rail for instance).
Is the M&P pistol the be all-end all handgun ?
Hell no.
Is the M&P better than the Glock?
I don't think so. In 9mm I do believe that Glocks are more proven and more durable at this time. I do think in .40 cal that the M&P40 is slightly better than a Glock 22 Gen 3, the Glock 22 Gen 4 may be better than the M&P40 and time will tell which is better. Glock was first imported here in what 1983? They've had a pretty big head start making striker fired guns. S&W and Glock are constantly evolving with updates to their parts....this is a good thing.
I find both handguns to be good. I own some of each and probably always will. I conceal carry a Glock 19 Gen 2 and at work I open carry a Glock 22 Gen 4.
As soon as the M&P40 Pro 5" comes out it'll replace my STI .40 2011 that I just sold. It will be my competition gun for USPSA Limited and Multi-gun division. It won't be USPSA Limited legal for a few months after it comes out so I'll be once again shooting Open division with an iron sighted pistol, maybe I'll make B class with it. I made C class (currently I'm at 54% in C Open) last year shooting Open Minor power factor with a M&P Pro 9mm (until it became Production legal).
***to be USPSA legal for Limited division the gun manufacturer has to sign a letter stated that they've made 500 copies of the particular model, for Production division they have to had made 2000 copies of that model.
Robb Jensen
05-07-10, 21:09
Started having issues with my Gen4 G17. Tracking them here.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=53356
I agree with DocGKR in that thread.
Take all your mags that you have load 1 round in each and shoot it left handed only with a very rigid stance and shoot the 1 round and see if it lock back on an empty mag. Do this several times with each mag and see if it fails to lock back then. Also are you using the mags that came with the Gen 4? I've heard a few people say they've had problems running older mags.
Just an educated guess but I think it's the extended slide stop causing the problem as well. If I use one they do that to me too. I take a stock slide stop and grind/cut it down to about 1/3 it's original size. With my aggressive grip this is the only way I can make them lock back when the mag runs empty.
varoadking
05-08-10, 03:56
Also are you using the mags that came with the Gen 4? I've heard a few people say they've had problems running older mags.
Interestingly enough, Robb, I actually had trouble shooting my Gen3 G17 with the Gen4 G17 magazines...
The slide would lock back on a partially full magazine on virtually every round...
Robb Jensen
05-08-10, 07:26
Interestingly enough, Robb, I actually had trouble shooting my Gen3 G17 with the Gen4 G17 magazines...
The slide would lock back on a partially full magazine on virtually every round...
I'll be getting a Glock 17 Gen 4 soon.
The one gentleman I saw that was having problems with mags had older mags and some newer mags but even his Gen 4 mags had different followers than his pretty darn new Gen 3 mags. I'm wondering if using the newest version followers will cure the problems. I recommended he call Glock and order the newest Gen 4 followers and some mag springs. His 17 Gen 4 would prematurely lock open with older mags. He was using a standard slide stop. He has no issues with any other of his Glocks (several) and has in excess of 4K rounds through his 17 Gen 4.
Magic_Salad0892
05-08-10, 07:33
I shoot all Gen 3 magazines with no problems.
Replaced the springs, and have a Gen4 follower. They work in Gen3 and Gen4 Glock 17s with no malfunctions to speak of.
Robb Jensen
05-08-10, 08:19
I shoot all Gen 3 magazines with no problems.
Replaced the springs, and have a Gen4 follower. They work in Gen3 and Gen4 Glock 17s with no malfunctions to speak of.
Thanks for the update.
My plan when I buy my Glock 17 Gen 4:
I'll lock the slide open for 2 weeks. After two weeks take it to the range with 300 rounds of Federal white box 9mm NATO 124gr ammo. Shoot it with only the Gen 4 mags.
I own 15-20 Gen 3 mags made in the last 2yrs. I'll get the newest followers for these and then try them in the Gen 4. If even then the Gen 3 mags won't work in the Gen 4 reliably the older mags will be dedicated to use only in the Gen 1 and Gen 2 Glock 17s that I own. After the 300 rounds of NATO pressure 9mm I'll install a 3.5lb connector and do my polishing like I do on all my Glocks.
My Glock 22 Gen 4 runs fine on Gen 4 or Gen 3 Glock 22 mags. I'll be putting another 100 rounds through it today.
Beat Trash
05-08-10, 12:09
Am I misreading something here?
If I purchase a Gen4 G17, will I have to rebuild my stock of G17 magazines I currently own, by replacing the springs and followers, to ensure they work in a Gen4 gun?
All of my Glock 17 magazines are currently serviceable and work without fail in all of the various size Glock 9mm's I currently own. The thought of having to rebuild them or having to separate magazines to individual guns makes me hesitate about purchasing a Gen4 Glock 17.
Robb Jensen
05-08-10, 12:44
Am I misreading something here?
If I purchase a Gen4 G17, will I have to rebuild my stock of G17 magazines I currently own, by replacing the springs and followers, to ensure they work in a Gen4 gun?
All of my Glock 17 magazines are currently serviceable and work without fail in all of the various size Glock 9mm's I currently own. The thought of having to rebuild them or having to separate magazines to individual guns makes me hesitate about purchasing a Gen4 Glock 17.
Some people are having issues with older mags in Gen 4 Glock 17s. This however doesn't mean that you will have problems it's just something to watch out for.
Beat Trash
05-08-10, 14:20
Thanks for the info...
glockshooter
05-08-10, 22:53
My gen4 17 has only been shot with older glock mags. The new mags that came with the gun have not even been loaded. I don't really see how the gen3 or gen4 mags are causing any problems. The only change in the body of the mags is the indentation for the ambi mag release. I don't know what follwers are in the ten training mags I have used but the mags are all at least 7 or 8 years old and have been heavily used. They all have worked flawlessly.
Matt
Robb Jensen
05-08-10, 23:06
Cool Matt. You fall under the 'some' people who aren't having problems.....
Mine had around 2 FTF's and a few near misses where you could feel a hitch in the chambering process, but the round did end up properly in the chamber, with older training mags (not that old, as they had follower #5, but had been well used) when the gun was in the first few hundred rounds. Having feeding problems with used magazine springs or slides not locking back is not a surprise given the new recoil spring strength.
My plan when I buy my Glock 17 Gen 4:
I'll lock the slide open for 2 weeks. After two weeks take it to the range with 300 rounds of Federal white box 9mm NATO 124gr ammo.
My G4 G17's love that NATO 9mm like it was made for them. Just feels right in recoil and recovery. In other news my defective G17's have 4,000 rds each of every kind of ammo, mostly weak wally world type through them with no issues.
2200 flawless feed, fire and cycle rounds of wide assortment of training ammo. The Winchester NATO load has been the most accurate I've seen thus far. I was able to hold it to about 2.5" for 5 shots at 25 yds using a rest. That's about as close as I've ever been able to hold any Glock (incl G34 and 17L) for that excercise. Takes a lot more concentration than my K-22.
The Win. NATO I've bought from Walmart has the red sealant around the primers FWIW.
Robb Jensen
05-17-10, 07:34
My G4 G17's love that NATO 9mm like it was made for them. Just feels right in recoil and recovery. In other news my defective G17's have 4,000 rds each of every kind of ammo, mostly weak wally world type through them with no issues.
Good to hear thanks for the feedback.
I'm buying one today to compliment my G22 Gen4.
That stiffer recoil spring would seem to lend itself to hotter ammo. I'll pick up some of the white box Federal 9mm NATO which seems very abundant these days. Plus I have around 400 rounds of 127gr+P+ which I'm sure will shoot very nicely through it.
MadcapMagician
05-17-10, 08:18
The NATO loadings have been getting the best feedback. This should be the case as the consideration for ammo on the original springs (gen4) was for the NATO and hotter JHPs according to the Austrian engineers.
Also, the latest out of the factory is the lighter springs for the 17s. Before you call and ask there are only a handful for testing, but more should be through soon. Look for an 02 marking on the metal end of the spring/rod. I'll post here when I get more info on availability.
While I'm at it, the first Gen 4 19 and 23 are in country getting looked over by ATF. Should be out sometime in June.
For those wondering, I've got a really good source inside Glock.
Very interesting news...thanks. I'm ready to buy a Glock 19 or two. Even though my G17's have been great I'm taking my time with the G19 just to be sure.
Good to hear thanks for the feedback.
I'm buying one today to compliment my G22 Gen4.
That stiffer recoil spring would seem to lend itself to hotter ammo. I'll pick up some of the white box Federal 9mm NATO which seems very abundant these days. Plus I have around 400 rounds of 127gr+P+ which I'm sure will shoot very nicely through it.
I will be very interested to hear your comparison of shooting the G17 and G22 in Gen 4. I'm thinking about getting the G22.
Robb Jensen
05-19-10, 22:01
On Monday I purchased a Glock 17 Gen 4.
I installed a set of 1 dot Warren night sights (tritium front, plain black rear). I installed a Ghost 3.5lb connector and did a high luster polish on the striker, trigger bar, fp safety. The trigger was a little firmer on mine vs. a few others I left in the standard trigger spring. I also lock the slide the the rear for 2 days.
Tonight I used it's 3 mags and 2 newer Glock 17 mags at the range with it.
The Glock 17 Gen 4 ran very well I shot 650 rounds tonight and had two stoppages toward the end of the shooting session within the last 100 rounds fired (I was getting tired). Each time it happened I felt my left hand shift on the gun during recoil, so I'm certain it was the meaty portion of my hand bumping the gun into slide lock. The softest shooting ammo I shot tonight was the 147gr Winchester Ranger. Next week I'll try some of my gamer ammo: Factory loaded Prvi 158gr FMJ doing 830fps out of my M&P Pro 9mm (5" barrel).
Tonight I shot:
300 rounds of generic white box Winchester 124gr FMJ 9mm NATO.
100 rounds of Winchester Ranger 127gr+P+ JHP 9mm Luger
90 rounds of Remington Golden Saber 124gr+P 9mm Luger
10 rounds of Winchester Ranger 147gr JHP (standard pressure)
100 rounds of Federal/American Eagle 115gr FMJ standard pressure 9mm Luger
50 generic white box Federal 95gr Radway Green (very soft shooting)
Other than the two times it went prematurely to slide lock no problems to report. It does shoot extremely flat (very little muzzle lift).
That's a pretty good amount of rounds for a first outing! Please tell us how recoil and muzzle rise compare to the Gen 4 22.
Robb Jensen
05-19-10, 22:49
That's a pretty good amount of rounds for a first outing! Please tell us how recoil and muzzle rise compare to the Gen 4 22.
Yes it wasn't meant to be a training, running drills shooting session. More of a break-in/does this thing work shooting session. The gun got incredibly hot during the session so I had to stop for shot periods of time.
Muzzle flip is about 1/2 as much as a Glock 22 Gen 4 which isn't much. Felt recoil is less than my Glock 17 Gen 2 both of which are less than the Glock 22 Gen 4. I find the Glock 22 Gen 4 to feel similar to a Glock 32 Gen 3 (.357SIG which hits the hands pretty hard but has little muzzle fip).
madisonsfinest
05-20-10, 07:47
On Monday I purchased a Glock 17 Gen 4.
I installed a set of 1 dot Warren night sights (tritium front, plain black rear). I installed a Ghost 3.5lb connector and did a high luster polish on the striker, trigger bar, fp safety. The trigger was a little firmer on mine vs. a few others I left in the standard trigger spring. I also lock the slide the the rear for 2 days.[/I]).
I feel like the trigger pull is just so much heavier than the Gen 3's. Did you find that installing the Ghost 3.5lb connector made the pull more similar to the Gen 3?
Robb Jensen
05-20-10, 08:02
I feel like the trigger pull is just so much heavier than the Gen 3's. Did you find that installing the Ghost 3.5lb connector made the pull more similar to the Gen 3?
Yes it helps a lot along with the polish. My trigger is right around 5lb and very smooth. My has quite a bit of overtravel but it's a nice workable trigger.
I feel like the trigger pull is just so much heavier than the Gen 3's. Did you find that installing the Ghost 3.5lb connector made the pull more similar to the Gen 3?
It is much heavier (by 1/2lb to a full lb).
C4
I'm pretty happy with the stock trigger but at around 150 to 200 rds it starts to wear on you. Or me at least. I like the greater lateral stiffness so I have not messed with the trigger at all yet but I'm thinking about making it a little easier and smoother. At the rate I'm going with 5k rds apiece with two Gen 4's I'll probably wear it in just from shooting the things. I am eagerly awaiting the Gen 4 G19's and 34. Maybe a 35 even for steel and pin shooting.
Maybe I missed it in this thread, but what number is stamped on the followers of the 4th gen 9mm mags?
I have some mags prior and post the little ambi cutout in the front of the mag body and they are all numbered 6.
My Gen4 17 came with number 6 followers.
Robb Jensen
05-21-10, 18:16
Maybe I missed it in this thread, but what number is stamped on the followers of the 4th gen 9mm mags?
I have some mags prior and post the little ambi cutout in the front of the mag body and they are all numbered 6.
My 3 Gen 4 mags have a 6.
My 3 Gen 4 mags have a 6.
If that is the case the 9mm follower hasn't changed in several years, maybe 3 or more.
It is much heavier (by 1/2lb to a full lb).
Why is that? What is different in the 4th gen design that alters the trigger pull? Just heavier trigger and/or firing pin safety plunger springs? Connector design alteration? Anyone know for sure?
Littlelebowski
05-21-10, 19:20
The trigger bar, Brian.
The trigger bar, Brian.
Yep.
Look for them to change it in the future.
C4
The trigger bar, Brian.
Thanks.
I wonder if there are side by side pics out there showing how it is different. I also kinda wonder why it is different as well.
Littlelebowski
05-21-10, 20:27
Look at the little bump on the side.
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs195.snc3/20269_224206886588_147550831588_3310213_2395446_n.jpg
Assy Mcgee
05-21-10, 20:33
If that is the case the 9mm follower hasn't changed in several years, maybe 3 or more.
Why is that? What is different in the 4th gen design that alters the trigger pull? Just heavier trigger and/or firing pin safety plunger springs? Connector design alteration? Anyone know for sure?
yeah it's the "SF" frame trigger bar. my g21 SF had a noticeably heavier trigger pull than my other standard frame glocks.
it can be changed to the standard trigger bar, though. not sure why glock doesn't just use the standard trigger bar in the first place on the SF's....
OK, so that bump rubs down the inside of the slide on that side now when the trigger is at or near break correct?
So what does that accomplish? More metal on metal contact certainly explains why the trigger pull would be worse, so what functional advantage in another area does this provide?
Sorry if these are stupid questions, I am just trying to understand what these changes are intended to do. The only 4th gen design changes I get as being no brainers is the interchangeable backstraps and the new frame texturing.
wicked_police
05-22-10, 00:31
I just finished the Glock armorers course and Instructor Workshop. I usen my Gen4 G17. I only have around 750rds through it now, but the only malfunctions have been ones set up for drills.
I used Winchester 147gr super unleaded for the first couple hundred, and then Speer 124gr fmj for the Workshop.
I'll be getting a lot more through it soon, and will be doing the same polish that gotm4 did, as well as installing a '-' connector.
So what does that accomplish? More metal on metal contact certainly explains why the trigger pull would be worse, so what functional advantage in another area does this provide?
It's somewhat heavier but a very good feeling trigger. It's not a trick shooting gamer trigger. Such as the PC sear on my Pro 9. Definitely set up for stress mgmt on the street.
Robb Jensen
05-22-10, 09:19
My Glock 22 Gen 4, 2100 rounds fired, ZERO stoppages, cleaned twice. 700 rounds fired with a X300 or TLR2 on it.
My Glock 17 Gen 4, 1K rounds fired, two stoppages with Win. 9mm NATO locked open with rounds still in the mag both times in the first 650 rounds. Pretty certain it was my weak hand coming loose during recoil since I was getting tired at the end of the range session (happens when I shoot 650 rounds in 1.5hrs and 450 of that was +P or more powerful). Cleaned twice, my boss wouldn't give me back a dirty gun after he shot it.
Today or next week at work I'll install my set of Defoor sights (made by Ameriglo) sights on my 17 and my Hackathorn sights (also made by Ameriglo) on my 22.
Robb Jensen
05-22-10, 09:35
My trigger in my Glock 17 Gen 4 still isn't as nice as I'd like it. If I'm shooting at high speed 70-90% of my best I start pulling the shots left and high which is a little weird, about 1.5" left and 1.5" high at 25yds. If I'm shooting slow and deliberate it's hitting POA/POI at 25-50yrs. I think at speed I'm probably getting too much trigger finger in there, I may have to add one of the grip pieces to make the frame a little bigger. I don't do this at all with the Glock 22 Gen 4 but the grip is a bit different since I had Hatfields Gunsmithing undercut the triggerguard, removed the finger grooves and texture the grip. On both because their already heavier than a Gen 3 I use the stock trigger springs. I've also noticed that Gen 4s have a bit snappier of a reset than earlier generations of Glocks. I think where the trigger spring connects to the trigger bar being different on the Gen 4 might be the reasons for this or it is this and the firing pin cam on the trigger bar.
I may try dressing down the bump on the firing pin safety cam on the trigger bar and then highly polish it and also try a Glock 17 Gen 2/3 trigger bar.
Littlelebowski
05-22-10, 09:49
gotm4, are there pics of Hatfield's work on your Gen4s?
Look at the little bump on the side.
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs195.snc3/20269_224206886588_147550831588_3310213_2395446_n.jpg
Is this the reason for the greater lateral stiffness of the Gen 4 trigger? Looks like it is. I don't want to lose that.
Also would like to see the Hatfield customization gotM4.
Robb Jensen
05-22-10, 10:27
He does my undercut differently than most. I have a pretty big middle finger knuckle so mine is angled a little. Hatfields is doing a Bowling Pin match at Fairfax Rod & Gun in June. I'll have this gun there as well as my Glock 19 Gen 2, Glock 17 Gen 2, my Springfield 1911 that he also worked on. Anyone come to the match is more than welcome to shoot my guns. I've also knocked the sharp edges off my mag catch on this 22 Gen 4. The last few pics show the Hatfields slide racker as well. Mine is different than the production versions, mine on the left side he relieved so that it wouldn't impact my thumb due to my very high grip on the gun. I'm using it on my Glock 17 now.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/hatfieldgunsmiffin/Glock223.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/hatfieldgunsmiffin/Glock221.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/hatfieldgunsmiffin/Glock227.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/hatfieldgunsmiffin/Glock228.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/hatfieldgunsmiffin/slideracker1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/hatfieldgunsmiffin/slideracker4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/hatfieldgunsmiffin/slideracker5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/hatfieldgunsmiffin/slideracker6.jpg
GermanSynergy
05-22-10, 15:48
Robb,
How did that Federal 95 grain JSP shoot for you? Thanks for letting me get some trigger time on the G 17 Gen 4, BTW. :D
Robb Jensen
05-22-10, 17:43
Robb,
How did that Federal 95 grain JSP shoot for you? Thanks for letting me get some trigger time on the G 17 Gen 4, BTW. :D
Way way soft I could shoot it way fast. Easily as fast as .40 Minor in my old STI Limited gun. It had acceptable accuracy but hit umpa lumpa low for me. It would be a great competition ammo if you didn't have to worry about shooting steel.
Littlelebowski
05-22-10, 18:37
Just did the "25 cent trigger job" (polishing trigger contact points with Dremel brush and Mother's metal polish) on my Gen4 G17. Made a noticeable difference for the better in trigger pull.
Noticed something disturbing. First off, I noticed that there was visible wear marks from the trigger bar on the 3.5lb trigger connector. Upon examination, I noticed what looked to be a surface only crease/wrinkle on the trigger bar where it contacts the trigger connector. After polishing, it looks like a cheap chrome coating of some sort that comes off with application of a soft Dremel bristle brush with metal polish. This phenomenon was noticed on all of the parts I polished.
I said the hell with it and polished until all parts were smooth and bright albeit with patches of the cheap coating removed.
Very surprised about this.
***Edit*** I have done this sort of trigger job on many different Glocks in the past and have never noticed this coating before. I don't have a camera on hand capable of documenting this.
Not to get off topic. But I'd like to find a nice 1st gen G17. I know a gun store manager with 100,000 rounds + out of his. He claims 50,000 were lead
Plus it's the only G17 gen I don't have. My Gen 4 G17 is still unfired. Oneday I'll get it out, oneday
For about 450 rounds, I was using a Gen 3 trigger bar in my Gen 4 22. I noticed that the plating on the trigger bar was starting to flake off. I went back to the standard Gen 4 style trigger bar and have not noticed any problems.
Just did the "25 cent trigger job" (polishing trigger contact points with Dremel brush and Mother's metal polish) on my Gen4 G17. Made a noticeable difference for the better in trigger pull.
Noticed something disturbing. First off, I noticed that there was visible wear marks from the trigger bar on the 3.5lb trigger connector. Upon examination, I noticed what looked to be a surface only crease/wrinkle on the trigger bar where it contacts the trigger connector. After polishing, it looks like a cheap chrome coating of some sort that comes off with application of a soft Dremel bristle brush with metal polish. This phenomenon was noticed on all of the parts I polished.
I said the hell with it and polished until all parts were smooth and bright albeit with patches of the cheap coating removed.
Very surprised about this.
***Edit*** I have done this sort of trigger job on many different Glocks in the past and have never noticed this coating before. I don't have a camera on hand capable of documenting this.
Did somebody say flaky plating?
Gen 3 26, 1000 rounds.
http://nfranco.smugmug.com/Other/coolimages/IMG2981/875602732_pBt8g-M.jpg
Robb Jensen
05-22-10, 22:59
There is a coating sort of a teflon nickel coating that does come off and comes off easily with polishing. Under it is a copper/brass colored finish. If you see it don't be alarmed just keep polishing to a high luster and soldier on. It won't effect the longevity of the parts not the trigger pull (unless you don't polish).
So this
http://nfranco.smugmug.com/Other/coolimages/202692242068865881475508315883/875679425_pAVHf-M-1.jpg
is in response to the shifting of the trigger bar i take it?
I noticed after I installed the NY spring that there was shifting of the trigger bar that wasn't there with the stock setup.
It's most noticeable at the firing pin safety.
It seems like it causes the bar to rotate a bit, Does this cause an uneven release of the striker?
Assy Mcgee
05-23-10, 01:19
There is a coating sort of a teflon nickel coating that does come off and comes off easily with polishing. Under it is a copper/brass colored finish. If you see it don't be alarmed just keep polishing to a high luster and soldier on. It won't effect the longevity of the parts not the trigger pull (unless you don't polish).
it often peels off the frame rails too. it's come off my second g19 rails, but never happened on the first.
not a big deal. glock won't do anything about it anyway.
Assy Mcgee
05-23-10, 01:22
So this
http://nfranco.smugmug.com/Other/coolimages/202692242068865881475508315883/875679425_pAVHf-M-1.jpg
is in response to the shifting of the trigger bar i take it?
I noticed after I installed the NY spring that there was shifting of the trigger bar that wasn't there with the stock setup.
It's most noticeable at the firing pin safety.
It seems like it causes the bar to rotate a bit, Does this cause an uneven release of the striker?
unrelated. the NY-1 spring doesn't hold back the trigger bar cruciform, where as the stock one does. that's why you might have to pull the trigger to get the slide off with the NY-1 spring.
My son was so impressed with my Gen 4 G17 he acquired one of his own today. It has started out well with the first several boxes of American Eagle running smoothly and exceptionally accurate. I noticed that the trigger does not feel as stout as mine but rather is indistinguishable from a Gen 3.
No additional lube added to the factory condition. No 2 week lockback of the slide.
Mine seem a little more accurate too, especially in rapid fire. Probably just the better ergoes though. These pistols are making me look good that's for sure. I enjoy shooting them.
ehcarl2983
05-24-10, 22:36
I'm JHC's son. Earlier it was posted that there would be 9mm specific recoil springs installed on the more recent Gen 4 17's and they would be marked with a "02" on the metal end of the spring. Is this still the case? It is noticeably easier to rack the slide on mine (but no "02") and seemed to shoot more like the Gen 3's than my dad's Gen 4. I was very impressed with the accuracy, and if I can repeat it I will post a pic since it is not what I would consider an expected group from a glock.
Mine seem a little more accurate too, especially in rapid fire. Probably just the better ergoes though. These pistols are making me look good that's for sure. I enjoy shooting them.
According to Glock these pistols have a tighter lockup and are more accurate as a result. So maybe it's not just the ergos.
From Glock info sheet
The 2010 Glock Gen4 guns are a major external and internal re-design of what Glock has offered in the past, and the following parts will NOT interchange with the Gen1, Gen2, and Gen3 guns:
• frame,
• slide,
• trigger bar,
• magazine catch,
• recoil spring assembly,
• back-strap assemblies,
• trigger mechanism housing,
• trigger mechanism housing pin.
The 2010 Glock Gen4 pistols offer several major advantages:
• less recoil (slower slide velocity),
• stainless-steel, double-wound, two-stage, recoil spring assembly,
• twice the recoil-spring rated service life (5000-plus rds vs 2500 rds for Gen3 G22 springs),
• smallest circumference short-grip frame Glock has ever offered,
• shortest trigger reach Glock has ever offered,
• 2 additional “snap-on” full-length back-straps (medium and large)for larger hands,
• 3x larger mag catch with improved ergonimics,
• reversible mag catch (30-second switch to right side for left-handed shooters),
• reliable feeding,
• more accurate (tighter lock-up),
• fits Gen3 holsters,
• easy-to-grip Gen4 RTF4 frame with pointed “pyramids” instead of checkering(Gen4 RTF4 frame is not as aggressive feeling as the RTF2 military grip).
• Gen4 comes with 3 mags
I wonder if the tighter lock up, has had anything to do with some of the reliability issues that have been attributed to the Gen 4?
Larry Vickers
05-25-10, 22:26
Update;
Latest word I have gotten is the 9mm Gen 4 Glocks will return to the gen 3 recoil spring setup and any gen 4's in 9mm that require overhaul/service will get the replacement gen 4 9mm recoil spring when
they are sent in
no recall will be done - so you will only get the replacement recoil spring
is you need it/request it
Does that jive with what others have heard?
LAV
Update;
Latest word I have gotten is the 9mm Gen 4 Glocks will return to the gen 3 recoil spring setup and any gen 4's in 9mm that require overhaul/service will get the replacement gen 4 9mm recoil spring when
they are sent in
no recall will be done - so you will only get the replacement recoil spring
is you need it/request it
Does that jive with what others have heard?
LAV
That is good news. I handled one at the last gun show and was very impressed with the way it felt in MY hand. When this fix is in I may look to pick one up.
Magic_Salad0892
05-26-10, 02:29
If they put in the Gen 3 recoil assembly will they still have tighter frame lock-up?
Moose-Knuckle
05-26-10, 07:08
Update;
Latest word I have gotten is the 9mm Gen 4 Glocks will return to the gen 3 recoil spring setup and any gen 4's in 9mm that require overhaul/service will get the replacement gen 4 9mm recoil spring when
they are sent in
no recall will be done - so you will only get the replacement recoil spring
is you need it/request it
Does that jive with what others have heard?
LAV
First I am hearing of this. Good news for me as I really like the Gen 4 frames but have been on the fence about the Gen 4s due to the new slide/recoil set up.
MadcapMagician
05-26-10, 08:01
I've heard of an adapter to retrofit gen 4 guns to the gen 3 springs being developed by Bill Rogers.
This piece plus the redesigned spring (02 marked) should be able to fix anyones issues.
Rumor mill has it that 8000 of the gen 4 19/23s are on a slow boat from Austria for release.
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 09:04
I hope I can get replacement dual spring setups. Mine runs fine.
ehcarl2983
05-26-10, 09:16
Rumor mill has it that 8000 of the gen 4 19/23s are on a slow boat from Austria for release.
:D Good to hear!!!
Edited because I don't know how to use the quote function well:cool:
Update;
Latest word I have gotten is the 9mm Gen 4 Glocks will return to the gen 3 recoil spring setup and any gen 4's in 9mm that require overhaul/service will get the replacement gen 4 9mm recoil spring when
they are sent in
no recall will be done - so you will only get the replacement recoil spring
is you need it/request it
Does that jive with what others have heard?
LAV
Excellent news. Hopefully the Gen4 19s will get out of the gates starting with the Gen3 and earlier spring.
I hope I can get replacement dual spring setups. Mine runs fine.
I was thinking along those same lines. How many people will now want the dual spring due to recoil benefits, perceived or real, vs how many will want a new one due to reliability concerns, perceived or real?
And, correct me if I am wrong, but the single spring would have to be a new design too since Gen 3 part can't be retrofitted?
madisonsfinest
05-26-10, 10:21
Well if they are the same as the 22's it shouldn't be a problem
I hope I can get replacement dual spring setups. Mine runs fine.
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 10:22
Well if they are the same as the 22's it shouldn't be a problem
So obvious I didn't see it in front of me :D Very true.
I was thinking along those same lines. How many people will now want the dual spring due to recoil benefits, perceived or real, vs how many will want a new one due to reliability concerns, perceived or real?
And, correct me if I am wrong, but the single spring would have to be a new design too since Gen 3 part can't be retrofitted?
If the problem was just "perceived" by Glock, they would NEVER come out with a new guide rod.
C4
Considering the good performance the vast majority of gen 4 buyers have been reporting on the web I'll be surprised if this rumor turns out to be exactly correct. But I've been surprised before.
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 11:41
Considering the good performance the vast majority of gen 4 buyers have been reporting on the web I'll be surprised if this rumor turns out to be exactly correct. But I've been surprised before.
Let's hope it's not true. When my Gen4 G17 has noticeably less rise and a faster shot to shot recovery time compared to my buddy's Gen G34, the spring's benefits are obvious to me.
ehcarl2983
05-26-10, 11:43
I sure hope they don't change anything until we can see how the gen4 19's will perform, because if it's anything like my gen4 17 and the two others i've been around I can't wait to get one:D.
Considering the good performance the vast majority of gen 4 buyers have been reporting on the web I'll be surprised if this rumor turns out to be exactly correct. But I've been surprised before.
No rumor. The info came from someone high up at Glock.
There is also another "fix" coming to the GEN 4 Glock's, but will save that one for later.
C4
I hope I can get replacement dual spring setups. Mine runs fine.
I won't go out of my way to get one. Mine run fine too. I'll get the new one when its time to replace the old one.
I sure hope they don't change anything until we can see how the gen4 19's will perform, because if it's anything like my gen4 17 and the two others i've been around I can't wait to get one:D.
Yeah I'm needing one as well. Plus a 34 and 35. Probably a 21....
There is also another "fix" coming to the GEN 4 Glock's, but will save that one for later.
C4
Grant, don't tease us like that....
Grant, don't tease us like that....
This is Mr. Vickers thread so if he wants to talk about it, he will.
C4
I am quite happy with the spring setup in my Gen 4 G17, and wouldn't change it if they paid me. :)
This is 835 PMC Bronze brass that I've shot from this week. Zero malfunctions.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb300/AdrianJoe/BrassPile.jpg
thopkins22
05-26-10, 13:17
Question for you Gen4 owners. Much has been said, right or wrong about the recoil assembly changes. But the one I handled appeared to have extra metal machined out of the slide. Any truth to that?
I sort of figured that this was to counter the increased spring rate. The lighter slide also probably has something to do with the perceived reduced recoil, and a switch back to the single spring setup would leave the impression of reduced recoil, while helping to alleviate any limp wrist issues.
But I don't know. I slept in my own bed last night, not a Holiday Inn.
Robb Jensen
05-26-10, 13:27
Question for you Gen4 owners. Much has been said, right or wrong about the recoil assembly changes. But the one I handled appeared to have extra metal machined out of the slide. Any truth to that?
I sort of figured that this was to counter the increased spring rate. The lighter slide also probably has something to do with the perceived reduced recoil, and a switch back to the single spring setup would leave the impression of reduced recoil, while helping to alleviate any limp wrist issues.
But I don't know. I slept in my own bed last night, not a Holiday Inn.
Gen 4 slides are made here in the U.S. Also G22 Gen 4 slides are heavier than G17 Gen 4 slides. You're probably seeing the profiles to lighten in a bit. This is true with Gen 3 slides too, G22 Gen 3 slides are heavier than G17 Gen 3 slides. They aren't just different in the breachface cut.
Tonight I'll be trying some 147gr American Eagle and some 158gr Prvi which shooter extremely soft and slow out of my M&P Pro 9 (830fps).
thopkins22
05-26-10, 13:35
Gen 4 slides are made here in the U.S. Also G22 Gen 4 slides are heavier than G17 Gen 4 slides. You're probably seeing the profiles to lighten in a bit. This is true with Gen 3 slides too, G22 Gen 3 slides are heavier than G17 Gen 3 slides. They aren't just different in the breachface cut.
Thanks for the correction.
Beat Trash
05-26-10, 14:28
So if the Gen 4 Glock 9mm's are retrofitted with a Gen 3 spring, then am I correct in assuming that there would be no difference between a Gen 4 and a Gen 3 gun as far as recoil and shot to shot recovery?
The one thing that would cause me to replace my Gen 3 Glock 19's with Gen 4 Glock 19's would be the decrease in shot to shot recovery. If the guns have the same springs, this would be the same, unless I am missing something.
Am I missing something here?
The decrease is nice but pretty minimal considering we are talking about 9mm. Given that we don't know if the new spring exists, if it will be single spring, if it will be single spring of the same strength of the 3rd gen single spring...I wouldn't worry about it. IMHO the 4Gen grip changes, mag release and slightly better accuracy are mot then enough reason to switch.
Learn to read before you come off like an ass... He stated that it was LAV's thread and if he chose to discuss it he would.
Correct. If Mr. Vickers started a thread about his thoughts on the M&P, I wouldn't post anything in it either.
There is such a thing as professional courtesy and Mr. Vickers gets mine.
C4
Assy Mcgee
05-26-10, 17:01
So if the Gen 4 Glock 9mm's are retrofitted with a Gen 3 spring, then am I correct in assuming that there would be no difference between a Gen 4 and a Gen 3 gun as far as recoil and shot to shot recovery?
The one thing that would cause me to replace my Gen 3 Glock 19's with Gen 4 Glock 19's would be the decrease in shot to shot recovery. If the guns have the same springs, this would be the same, unless I am missing something.
Am I missing something here?
you're right. the only difference at that point would be the grip, and the heavier trigger pull.
the slides on the gen4's have to altered to accept the gen3 recoil assembly. this is why glock isn't issuing a recall like they should. they don't want to spend the cash. pretty cheap ass move from the maker of the worlds most popular pistols in you ask me....
you're right. the only difference at that point would be the grip, and the heavier trigger pull.
the slides on the gen4's have to altered to accept the gen3 recoil assembly. this is why glock isn't issuing a recall like they should. they don't want to spend the cash. pretty cheap ass move from the maker of the worlds most popular pistols in you ask me....
How do you know Glock is going to alter slides? That doesn't seem cheap at all but it does sound odd.
Assy Mcgee
05-26-10, 17:14
How do you know Glock is going to alter slides? That doesn't seem cheap at all but it does sound odd.
the 3rd gen & 4th gen recoil assembly are not interchangeable because the front of the slides. you can tell gaston is no longer at the helm of this company...
gen4 is on the left.
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x29/jbj16/2997233720100259265S600x600Q85.jpg
gen4 on top.
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/pics/gen4/1.jpg
thopkins22
05-26-10, 17:19
the 3rd gen & 4th gen recoil assembly are not interchangeable because the front of the slides.
Sure. But I doubt they're contemplating adding metal to the front of the gen4 slides, or otherwise altering them. They would have to toss them, and give you a new one. It would seem to be a cheaper and better way to just get new plastic guide rods that fit the existing 4th Gen slides, only without the dual spring setup.
Assy Mcgee
05-26-10, 17:29
Sure. But I doubt they're contemplating adding metal to the front of the gen4 slides, or otherwise altering them. They would have to toss them, and give you a new one. It would seem to be a cheaper and better way to just get new plastic guide rods that fit the existing 4th Gen slides, only without the dual spring setup.
they can either provide a new slide, or an insert to take up the extra space. assumably they're providing new slides.
they can either provide a new slide, or an insert to take up the extra space. assumably they're providing new slides.
Providing new slides for Gen 4 Glock 17 pistols sounds like an expensive proposition. An adapter insert to sort of wedge a Gen 3 recoil assembly in there seems unreliable from go. A new recoil assembly would be less expensive than providing new slides and (if done correctly) more reliable than some adapter insert.
I look forward to seeing what the fix is.
Update;
Latest word I have gotten is the 9mm Gen 4 Glocks will return to the gen 3 recoil spring setup and any gen 4's in 9mm that require overhaul/service will get the replacement gen 4 9mm recoil spring when
they are sent in
no recall will be done - so you will only get the replacement recoil spring
is you need it/request it
Does that jive with what others have heard?
LAV
From what I get from Mr. Vickers post it sounds like future Gen4 G17's will have the same recoil spring setup as the Gen3's and so the interior of the slides and frames will be the same as the Gen3's. Current Gen4 G17 owners will not be getting new slides or frames but can continue to get replacement dual recoil springs, which is presumably the same ones as the Gen4 G22's.
Is this correct?
Yeah what I am saying is we should not assume they would use the exact same recoil assembly as the 3rd gen. They could use a new one that fits the Gen 4 slides. Anyway I'm tired of speculating.
brushy bill
05-26-10, 18:31
Yeah what I am saying is we should not assume they would use the exact same recoil assembly as the 3rd gen. They could use a new one that fits the Gen 4 slides. Anyway I'm tired of speculating.
Exactly. Plus, it would seem a simple matter to create a single spring setup using the existing Gen 4 guide rod with no need to add an adapter, redesign the slide, go to a Gen 3 slide, or whatever else...really immaterial though, as we simply don't know at this juncture what Glock will do.
I'm curious with regard to Grant's hint of an additional change beyond the spring. I didn't even realize there was a problem beyond some people having problems with the spring system while others do not...can't even imagine what this is about....
Assy Mcgee
05-26-10, 18:33
Providing new slides for Gen 4 Glock 17 pistols sounds like an expensive proposition.
would be pocket change for this company.
others issue recalls and take care of things like this properly. kimber replaced all external extractor slides for free a few years back, for example.
Assy Mcgee
05-26-10, 18:35
Yeah what I am saying is we should not assume they would use the exact same recoil assembly as the 3rd gen. They could use a new one that fits the Gen 4 slides. Anyway I'm tired of speculating.
that's what they will do, if it's cheaper in the long run.
whatever choice they make, like any company, cost will be the deciding factor.
The return to the proven design is certainly welcomed by me.
would be pocket change for this company.
others issue recalls and take care of things like this properly. kimber replaced all external extractor slides for free a few years back, for example.
Glock will not issue a recall as it makes them look foolish. They will simply wait for people to call and complain about something and then make the changes to that customers gun.
C4
Assy Mcgee
05-26-10, 19:22
Glock will not issue a recall as it makes them look foolish. They will simply wait for people to call and complain about something and then make the changes to that customers gun.
C4
they pride themselves on "never having issued a recall".
however, they have issued "upgrades".
load of hoarse crap if i ever heard it.
they pride themselves on "never having issued a recall".
however, they have issued "upgrades".
load of hoarse crap if i ever heard it.
It's really nothing new. This is how Glock has been doing business for years.
There is a lot of speculation about what may be happening with 9mm Gen 4 slides, when we haven't even seen a press release from Glock, or the details of the replacement spring assembly.
I'll take LAV's word to the bank, but until we see what exactly Glock is and isn't doing...what's the point in talking about recalls and what they "should" do?
Update;
Latest word I have gotten is the 9mm Gen 4 Glocks will return to the gen 3 recoil spring setup and any gen 4's in 9mm that require overhaul/service will get the replacement gen 4 9mm recoil spring when
they are sent in
no recall will be done - so you will only get the replacement recoil spring
is you need it/request it
Does that jive with what others have heard?
LAV
That was the point. Since the slides are significantly different, simply sending out a Gen 3 recoil springs won't exactly do the trick eh? As Assy Magee illustrated.
So the rumor/report from a senior Glock official is probably not 100%accurate as LAV typed it - if one understands that to be literally a Gen 3 recoil spring unit, but some other approximately similiar. Such as a Gen 4 recoil spring unit marked 02 as has been already posted widely around the net.
The news that Glock was going to move Gen 4 G17's to a lighter 9mm spring weight is not news at all. That's been out there for a good while including from my inside Glock guy.
Seems like quite a lather over old news.
Wouldn't it be easier to just supply new G4 G17s with a lighter dual recoil spring assembly that will also work with existing G4 G17s?
"Wouldn't it be easier to just supply new G4 G17s with a lighter dual recoil spring assembly that will also work with existing G4 G17s?"
I think that is the plan.
Wouldn't it be easier to just supply new G4 G17s with a lighter dual recoil spring assembly that will also work with existing G4 G17s?
EXACTLY! Or any new Gen 4 recoil spring (dual or otherwise) optimized for limper shooters. LOL Oh just kidding.
Hmm, looks like I'll be sticking with the Gen 3. The only thing I'm not a fan of on Glocks is the grip. I like the feel of my 19, however, but the full size guns' grooves hit my fingers the wrong way when I use a high grip. I'd rather see them just focus on ergonomics than mess with the tried and true action. Not like the 9mm models had reliability issues. Looks like they've created more problems than they solved, here.
Robb Jensen
05-26-10, 21:21
My prediction but probably wrong:
They'll continue to make the Gen 4 Glock 17s the way they are currently.
They'll repair/replace complaining customer guns with Gen 3 Glock 17s or uppers depending on if they make some adapter or just give a Gen 3 slide.
Gen 4 Glock 19s will stay with Gen 3 recoil springs.
Eventually Glock will make a different (lighter rate) recoil spring for the Glock 17 Gen 4s with the dual recoil springs.
Wolff Gunsprings will offer a non-captured recoil assy that you can swap out springs to get the spring rate you desire.
I actually like the Gen 4 recoil spring in the Glock 17 Gen 4. It makes the gun shoot very soft with 9mm NATO pressure ammo, REALLY soft with 9mm Luger standard pressure ammo and SQUIB feeling soft with 147gr.
Assy Mcgee
05-26-10, 23:28
It's really nothing new. This is how Glock has been doing business for years.
There is a lot of speculation about what may be happening with 9mm Gen 4 slides, when we haven't even seen a press release from Glock, or the details of the replacement spring assembly.
I'll take LAV's word to the bank, but until we see what exactly Glock is and isn't doing...what's the point in talking about recalls and what they "should" do?
passes the time on these forums ;)
Assy Mcgee
05-26-10, 23:29
The news that Glock was going to move Gen 4 G17's to a lighter 9mm spring weight is not news at all. That's been out there for a good while including from my inside Glock guy.
Seems like quite a lather over old news.
well, not all of us have a "man on the inside". :p
My new Gen4 G17 stovepiped yesterday somewhere between rounds 600-650... which is exactly one (1) more malf/stoppage then I've experienced in 7000+ rounds through my most recent Gen3 G17. So, while I'm not freaking out about it, I am slightly concerned as something I hadn't considered is that while I knew the spring was too stiff for the 9mm going in I didn't consider that if these things really bring the service life of the .40 assemblies into the 10,000rds range, who really knows how long it'll take to really break-in one fully for the 9mm guns.
IMO, I think a minus (-) assembly for the G17's will be the right fix.
Above said, thing is, as someone with A LOT of trigger time with the Gen3 17's, the 2mm smaller grip, better textured grip and larger/better mag release really do make the gun work better for me, and after dropping all my trigger guts aside from the trigger bar into the Gen4 from my Gen3, I even lucked into getting a better trigger break out of it too. I'm honestly in no hurry to go back to my Gen3 gun and give up on the Gen4 so quickly. I was surprised even with the too-stiff spring that they really do shoot flatter, and while I personally think it probably has more to do with the extra weight up front under the barrel and the WAY better grip adding more control, it's not beyond reason that the dual-spring assembly helps some, so a softer one tuned better to the gun would just make it even more shootable I suspect, dual-proggresive recoil set-ups have been around for a while, thing is they've also been caliber specific to their stiffness.
After hundreds of sessions with a Gen3 G17, gotta admit, I shot the Gen4 much better both times I've gotten to shoot it thus far, and the small changes add up to big dividends in my case.
Magic_Salad0892
05-27-10, 03:25
Would it make sense for them to just either
A - Produce the Gen3 guns with the Gen 4 changes, (grip, straps, mag catch), and then we'll see gen ''3.5'' or ''4.5'' guns or something? (As there will be G17s with the dual recoil spring. Kind of like the Gen 2.5 guns.) (My favorite option as it will be 100% parts commonality with Gen3 guns. Save the mag catch.)
B - Produce the Gen4 guns with a re-designed slide that uses the Gen3 spring.
C - Produce the Gen4 guns with a lighter dual-caption recoil spring. (Most likely solution - more than satisfactory.)
Well, after listening to a little bit of easy-listening techno this morning... managed to get through to Glock customer service (technical), spoke with Anthony there and according to him there are no changes pending for the Gen4 recoil assemblies/guns in general. He said the rumor of changes comes purely from internet speculation and that the overwhelming majority of Gen4 owners aren't having problems, and the stoppages that have been reported are in guns that are still fairly new and have all been reported with softer shooting target FMJ, so while the new assemblies are indeed stiffer the malf's are more than likely coming from shooters getting an underpowered round here and there as the new assemblies are designed to extend the life between replacement as well as add a tighter lock-up, so they're inherently going to be more picky with soft loads than what some shooters may be used to.
I asked "So, is this Glock's official word on the matter?", he said "Yes", I then asked "Think that might change?"... "I doubt it" was his answer.
The problem is that Glock, Steyr, etc. are still developing and testing not only with NATO pressure loads but with our Hirtenberger
army ammo- which is absurdly HOT. In order to run with commercial stuff I cocked my AUG to keep the springs compressed in the
rearward position of the bolt carrier for several weeks. A Steyr official recommened this for the springs to soften a bit. Never
had a problem since then. Maybe this would work with 4th Gen Glocks too?
Well, after listening to a little bit of easy-listening techno this morning... managed to get through to Glock customer service (technical), spoke with Anthony there and according to him there are no changes pending for the Gen4 recoil assemblies/guns in general. He said the rumor of changes comes purely from internet speculation and that the overwhelming majority of Gen4 owners aren't having problems, and the stoppages that have been reported are in guns that are still fairly new and have all been reported with softer shooting target FMJ, so while the new assemblies are indeed stiffer the malf's are more than likely coming from shooters getting an underpowered round here and there as the new assemblies are designed to extend the life between replacement as well as add a tighter lock-up, so they're inherently going to be more picky with soft loads than what some shooters may be used to.
I asked "So, is this Glock's official word on the matter?", he said "Yes", I then asked "Think that might change?"... "I doubt it" was his answer.
Often times, the right hand of a large company does not know what the left hand is doing. I have seen this with Colt and S&W (to name a few). The guy you spoke to is low down on the food chain.
There are other conversations going on inside the company that the CS person is not privy too.
C4
The problem is that Glock, Steyr, etc. are still developing and testing not only with NATO pressure loads but with our Hirtenberger
army ammo- which is absurdly HOT. In order to run with commercial stuff I cocked my AUG to keep the springs compressed in the
rearward position of the bolt carrier for several weeks. A Steyr official recommened this for the springs to soften a bit. Never
had a problem since then. Maybe this would work with 4th Gen Glocks too?
Correct. Glock tested their GEN 4 G17 with NATO pressured loads (which are similar to our +P loads). This is why and how problems happen.
C4
Often times, the right hand of a large company does not know what the left hand is doing. I have seen this with Colt and S&W (to name a few). The guy you spoke to is low down on the food chain.
There are other conversations going on inside the company that the CS person is not privy too.
C4
Well, if you've got some additional info you're privy to that their own CS isn't, this would be the right thread in which to share it...
Well, if you've got some additional info you're privy to that their own CS isn't, this would be the right thread in which to share it...
The info that Mr. Vickers recently posted came from someone high up in the food chain at Glock.
C4
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