View Full Version : Blackhole Weaponry Barrels ?
Anyone use Blackhole Weaponry barrels ? One of the few polygonal AR15 barrel makers it seems. Their prices are much lower than Noveske, LW etc. Opinions ?
xrayoneone
05-01-10, 23:38
I got one coming in 6x45. I'll let you know what I think of it when it shows up. I can say that I'm not to happy all ready as I see they dropped their prices $40 right after I ordered it. But them's the breaks.
Did you get a chance to try out the barrel ?
I've got just shy of 500 rounds through a 5.56 stainless blackhole barrel and I'm very pleased with it.
So much so, I'm buying one in 6.8 this week.
That's great... is the polygonal bore easier to clean ?
Looks like they switched from enfield to polygonal rifling sometime in the past 6 mos (which is just a slight change of the broach profile).
My 14.5" heavy barrel is enfield rifled, but I have had a HK in the past that was poly. I don't think the difference between the enfield and the poly is all that significant, but they're both easier to clean than conventional as the lands aren't recessed and therefore don't collect as much crud.
The quality of my 14.5" is top notch. The ground surfaces are dead nuts on dimension and fit my upper with just the right amount of tension (you couldn't easily pull the barrel out once seated - and that's before the nut ever came close to it, but you didn't need to drive it in either).
This thing also shoots better than me. With shitty optics and bad ammo (wolf and cheap federal) putting a 5 round group into a quarter was not difficult at 50yds. Now if I had some real glass on it, and some bullets worth mentioning, I'm certain ragged holes would be the norm. It's also not a floated barrel. For the shortest gun I could build without a tax stamp, she's a tack driver.
I'd love to see a stainless Blackhole against a stainless Noveske barrel head to head.
xrayoneone
06-18-10, 22:23
Did you get a chance to try out the barrel ?
I just received my barrel today. It looks like it will be at least a month before I can shoot it. I put it on a Daniel Defense upper and the fit and finish looks good. With any luck I'll be able to try it out hunting this year.
xrayoneone
08-15-10, 00:12
I was finally able to try out my Blackhole Weaponry barrel in 6x45mm. I zeroed at 25 yards then confirmed at 100 and 200 yards on an 8" steel plate. At 25 yards with a new in box made in the USA 4x Weaver (not the new Chinese ones) all shots were in a quarter inch, not much of an accuracy test but it was only for zero. 20 shots at 100 yards got 19 hits on an 8" plate. The first few shots were center mass hits but the paint eventually wore away so I did not know exactly where the rounds were hitting. The miss happened when I pulled the scope slightly high left. 10 shots at 200 yards got 10 hits on the same plate. This will be for deer in my woods where 75 yards is about max.
Shots through my Shooting Chrony showed an 85 grain Speer HPBT Gameking bullet at a velocity of 2684 to 2703 fps using H-335. I plan on running this for deer season and seeing how it rings out on whitetails. I used a 20" 6x45 in the early 90's deer hunting and it worked well. With a scope and free floated barrel I think this one will work just as well.
black hole has a small table at the Portland gun show.. i've stopped and looked a couple times i've been in there for ammo (the only reason i go at all)... not impressed with what i've seen, nor with the specs they've given. cheap, unlined steel, with undesirable profiles... maybe you guys are seeing something i'm missing
black hole has a small table at the Portland gun show.. i've stopped and looked a couple times i've been in there for ammo (the only reason i go at all)... not impressed with what i've seen, nor with the specs they've given. cheap, unlined steel, with undesirable profiles... maybe you guys are seeing something i'm missingThe barrels may not be chrome lined, but that doesn't make the steel they use cheap. The profiles they displayed at the show may not be desirable to you, but somebody is buying them and from a quick search at a couple of other websites such as snipershide, folks are pleased with what they're getting. Over at ar15armory.com they're running a group buy.
The other bonus is they will build your barrel to order.
In all the handful of posts I saw, the Black Hole barrels were accurate. One thread on snipershide detailed a kaboom that may have been related to the BH barrel (barrel extension separated from barrel) but BH made good on it. Not that it makes the kaboom experience any less serious.
They may not offer barrels for everyone one but nobody does. I'm still looking for a barrel that has all the features I need and want for my build
xrayoneone
08-15-10, 13:18
black hole has a small table at the Portland gun show.. i've stopped and looked a couple times i've been in there for ammo (the only reason i go at all)... not impressed with what i've seen, nor with the specs they've given. cheap, unlined steel, with undesirable profiles... maybe you guys are seeing something i'm missing
My barrel is a 416R Stainless Steel barrel. The same barrel steel that Lilja, E.R. Shaw, Douglas, Lea Baer and others use in their barrels. 416 will still rust and corrode but not as readily as other steels, but it's easier to rifle consistantly.
The barrel profile is the profile I wanted. Approximately 1" to a .750" gas block and .740" to the muzzle. I talked to the owners of Blackhole Weaponry and they informed me they would machine what ever profile I wanted. So if they were willing to do that for me why wouldn't they do it for others?
Would chrome lining be nice? No. It's not like I'm going to find corrosive Eastern Block ammunition for a 6x45. This round is and will probably only remain a handload opption. Cor Bon has some ammo but at $44 per 20 no way. Chrome lining aids in corrosion resistance and barrel longevity neither of which are concerns for this rifle.
What did I see in their barrels? Price and the fact that they were making 6x45 barrels. I'm happy with the barrel. It is accurate and the machining and finish were excellent.
I will tell you one thing, Carl, the owner, is awesome. He took care of me like none other. Best customer service.
Getting my 14.5" barrel today. Will have a range report soon.
Got a chance to go shoot it at my local indoor range. This barrel is sweet!!! Was shooting XM193 and was getting 2" groups standing at 25 yards. Not too shabby.
I'll do a full review soon. Was too excited to shoot it. Going to try end get out to the 100 yard range this weekend.
Quick cell phone pics...
My 14.5" Midlength
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4121/4900827119_7261ba5456_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4120/4900826465_e417e5542a_b.jpg
your spread should be no more than 3cm, or about an inch, at 25m, to confirm a zero. even crappy barrels can do that, so you should definitely work on that some.
I have a 13.7 inch satin stainless barrel from black hole that I had custom ordered, it has been good I'm getting 1 to 2 moa at 100yrds and 3-4 Moa at 200yrds I'm getting a 16inch barrel soon to replace a Hbar 16 on my RRA upper I like the barrel and I believe it more accurate than I can shoot, oh Fyi I don't bench shoot. so i am pretty happy with my MOA on a 13.7 barrel
your spread should be no more than 3cm, or about an inch, at 25m, to confirm a zero. even crappy barrels can do that, so you should definitely work on that some.
I totally agree with you. I mentioned that because I wasn't able to do that before. 16" 1x9 twist.
With the barrel I was able to get the shots to a tighter group without changing anything else. I will be working on my shots from here on out.
Very good quality.
I have the 18' 3 groove poly.
BTW, This type of SS barrel does not usually have chrome lining.
Very good quality.
I have the 18' 3 groove poly.
BTW, This type of SS barrel does not usually have chrome lining.
negative- i didn't even know they were ALL stainless, until i just verified on their website. that would explain the crappy black-oxide finish i took as bad parkerizing, but it doesn't explain why i was told, buy their own rep at their own table, that they were unlined chromoly. so they either dropped their CM line, or that guy was at a gun-show.
i don't know how i feel about these newfangled 3-groove riflings. they seem to be popping up right now for some reason. somebody educate me- whats the ratio of land to groove with the 3-groove?
Is it cheaper to rifle a barrel with 3 grooves?
The_Hammer_Man
10-21-10, 22:04
Is it cheaper to rifle a barrel with 3 grooves?
Think of rifling like juggling
It's easier to juggle three items than it is to juggle four.
Also the tooling could cost less or last longer. Both very desirable things to a tool and die man.
Think of rifling like juggling
It's easier to juggle three items than it is to juggle four.
Also the tooling could cost less or last longer. Both very desirable things to a tool and die man.
The 3 groove thing really isn't about what's easier to make. There are people in the precision world who swear by 3 groove barrels. Personally, I've had a Lilja 3 groove barrel on a bolt gun, and I currently have a Benchmark 3 groove barrel on another bolt gun. Both barrels are stunningly accurate. On Lilja's site he says this about 3 groove barrels:
http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm#3 Groove and 6 Groove
Q. What are the differences between 3 Groove and 6 Groove Barrels?
A. Almost all of the caliber and twist combinations in the rifle barrels we make are available with 6 lands and grooves. A few years ago we started to make barrels in a 3 groove configuration too at the request of some varmint hunters who were looking for longer barrel life. They were chambering barrels for hot 22 caliber varmint rounds and shooting the throats out of conventional 6 groove barrels fairly fast. We reasoned that if we reduced the number of grooves to 3 but kept the ratio of land to groove width the same (ie. the lands are twice as wide in a 3 groove barrel as compared to a 6 groove) that there would be more land area to resist heat erosion.
Well, it turned out that barrel life did increase and that accuracy stayed at least the equal of comparable 6 groove barrels. It is hard to put a percentage increase on barrel life but a conservative estimate might be 20%.
Benchrest shooters are always experimenting and looking for a competitive edge. Before long a few shooters, including Dan Lilja, were putting 3 groove barrels in 6PPC and 22 Waldog on their light varmint and heavy varmint class benchrest rifles. And these barrels proved to be very accurate. They started winning benchrest matches and soon became popular among the benchrest shooters. .
On the right is Dan with a .193" 200 yard group fired at a benchrest match in Billings Montana in 1998.
This was with a 6 mm PPC 13" twist 3-Groove Barrel.
And we found that as a side benefit the 3 groove barrels seemed to foul very little and clean up quickly. We attributed this to the reduced number of corners inside collecting powder and copper fouling.
This answer to 3 groove - 6 groove question is not meant to discredit the 6 groove barrels. They have consistently shoot extremely well over the years. Dan continues to shoot both 6 and 3 groove barrels on his benchrest rifles. But if you haven't tried a 3 groove you might consider one the next time you need a barrel. We do not offer them in all of our caliber and twist combinations. Our page with caliber and twist listings indicates if a 3 groove barrel is available. And we are frequently adding 3 groove buttons to our offerings. If you don't see that a 3 groove version is offered in the caliber and twist you're looking for, ask, we might soon be making it.
Major benefit in my mind is increased life, slower throat errosion. I used a Lilja 3 groove on my 6.5-284 for just this reason. Accuracy is OUTSTANDING and after 700rnds in I have not had to reset my dies for a longer OAL, less than .002 change that I can measure, pretty good given the caliber.
I expected @ 1500 rnds before I re-barreled or set back...might get 2500-3000??? Fingers crossed.
I know this is an ancient thread, but it seems an appropriate place to support a good vendor.
Disclaimer: my Blackhole build was never intended to be a service rifle, but an accurate range toy. I firmly believe that chrome lining is not a benefit in anything other than a service rifle and is arguably detrimental to accuracy.
That said, I owe Carl some publicity for his excellent service. My new upper was experiencing FTE at an alarming frequency. This was using a Spikes BCG and a Rainier forged upper. Headspacing was good and I tried dialing the gas up and down with no success. I blamed first the upper and changed to a Mega billet upper so I could play with my Young NM side charger (again, not a service rifle, not sure I would recommend the NM carrier for that).
Problem did not go away and I blamed the barrel ext and/or chamber. Blackhole told me to send it right in and they'd make it right. I was nervous to do so since the panic started in December and vendors ceased to provide real customer service. I was surprised to have Carl call me within a day of receipt of the upper. He checked the chamber and found no issues but discovered that the carrier was impacting the front of the upper. He offered to machine the carrier for me at no cost. Neither the carrier nor the upper are his product. Anyways, I didn't want that upper to be forever tied to that carrier so I declined. He called the owner of Mega for me and discussed it and he is managing the repair/rebuild. That is above and beyond, so he deserves an attaboy.
My buddy bought a Blackhole at the same time and is having excellent results. I for one would like to see this company succeed. They offer a lot of interesting chamberings and I will be buying more in the future.
Whether it is correct or not, I've read that odd-numbered rifling profiles offer less resistance to bullet travel because the bullet material deforms more easily.
McGraff, if you read this, what platform is your 6.5-284 barrel? I've been wanting to work with that cartridge.
So, the problem occurred with a Spikes BCG/Rainier upper AND a Youngs BCG/Mega upper? Sure doesn't sound like an upper issue at all? The bolt carrier seats up against the barrel extension and really can't strike the upper unless there was a huge machining error. Unlikely on two well regarded uppers.
So, the problem occurred with a Spikes BCG/Rainier upper AND a Youngs BCG/Mega upper? Sure doesn't sound like an upper issue at all? The bolt carrier seats up against the barrel extension and really can't strike the upper unless there was a huge machining error. Unlikely on two well regarded uppers.
I thought the same thing. I'm a pretty capable guy with such things and I ended up getting frustrated and blaming the barrel by process of elimination.
Ultimately I think the story may not be done yet, but the carrier was striking the inside of the upper, evidenced by a ring of worn off anodizing in the front.
I would assume the YM side charger and Mega upper were co-developed, so I was surprised. I'll update when it comes back.
AKDoug, from Alaska? I just sold an AK to a Doug from Juneau a few weeks ago.
offroader1006
02-05-13, 21:43
BHW are good people
BHW are good people
That is what I'm hearing as well. I'm working on a review of two of their barrels currently.
AKDoug, from Alaska? I just sold an AK to a Doug from Juneau a few weeks ago.
Nope. Different Doug. AK = Alaska though.
Sent from my iPhone on tapatalk
I have a 10.5 Blackhole Weaponry barrel on a PSA upper that I'll be using on a PSA lower I'm going to build as a pistol until I can get an SBR stamp. I hope to have the lower built this week and be able to shoot the thing this weekend. Hopefully I'll like the BHW as much as the rest of you all have.
Looks like they switched from enfield to polygonal rifling sometime in the past 6 mos (which is just a slight change of the broach profile).
WHEW! You'll get my hospital bill ....... I read this and laughed *SO* hard, I fell outta my chair and broke something - tears running down my cheeks!!!!!
Enfield rifling is neatly RIPPED into the interior surfaces of a rifle barrel - a series of dies with progressively increasing dimensions that are "dragged" thru the bore until there are small grooves and larger lands .... With a slightly smaller diameter of bore than bullet, the 50 - 60,000 psi explosion forces the ...........
Polygonal "rifling" doesn't use a "broach" at all. The process - in the rough stage - uses a formed rod - with precise bore and polygonal "bulges" - and they are slight. The barrel & rod - locked together - are loaded into a "rotary hammer forge" and this quasi-medieval machine - uniformly - pounds the ever-lovin' be-jeez outta the exterior of the rough" barrel, conforming the interior to the sized rod .... Boom! Dead-smooth bore with the unmistakable absence of grooved "rifling" - but with that unusual "lobed" look to where Mr. Bullet slides thru when fired.
My 14.5" heavy barrel is enfield rifled, but I have had a HK in the past that was poly. I don't think the difference between the enfield and the poly is all that significant, but they're both easier to clean than conventional as the lands aren't recessed and therefore don't collect as much crud.
HUGE difference!!! No brushes needed with a polygonal barrel - ever! Why? No grooves that bite into the bullet and scratch away copper or lead. They can be made clean like a whistle with a solvent-wetted patch. Let the solvent do it's thing, then run a few dry patches. When they come out spankin' clean .... VOILA!
The quality of my 14.5" is top notch. The ground surfaces are dead nuts on dimension and fit my upper with just the right amount of tension (you couldn't easily pull the barrel out once seated - and that's before the nut ever came close to it, but you didn't need to drive it in either).
This thing also shoots better than me. With shitty optics and bad ammo (wolf and cheap federal) putting a 5 round group into a quarter was not difficult at 50yds. Now if I had some real glass on it, and some bullets worth mentioning, I'm certain ragged holes would be the norm. It's also not a floated barrel. For the shortest gun I could build without a tax stamp, she's a tack driver.
I'd love to see a stainless Blackhole against a stainless Noveske barrel head to head.
They're same - same .... 'cept Noveske's are brutally expensive. Are they still in business since their owner passed away?
I have a Black Hole Weaponry 16" M4 profile 300 Blackout barrel. On accurate re-loads, my 10-round 50 yard groupings are easily covered by a golf ball.
I have a 16" carbine-ported M4 profile in 5.56 and an 18" mid-length ported 5.56 and basically took a perfectly good "Enfield" rifled 16-inch barrel from a high quality manufacturer (Ha! "Assembler"!) And, after taking off the pinned-on FSB so I could remove the barrel nut / delta ring assembly - just threw it in the trash .... Yeah, the polygonal rifled barrels are THAT much superior.
BTW, someone noted they saw some BHW's at a gun show and wasn't impressed - "cheap" steel, unlined bores, yadda, yadda."
Black Hole Weaponry uses highest quality 416R ('R' for rifle or "ordinance" grade), stainess steel, with a "melonite"-type coating on the interior / exterior. The bores are as shiny & slick as snot on a doorknob ........ :)
Based on my 5.56 & 300 Blackout barrels from Black Hole Weaponry, if I were doing another Upper build and they had the caliber I wanted, they'd be *my* first choice - based on 100% satisfaction.
As always, Y.M.M.V.
KingsideRook
06-07-14, 21:50
Let's be honest here, a 5 second google search would have made it very clear that Noveske is still in business. Pretending not to know otherwise looks like product bias. Also, Noveske doesn't make BHW barrels - both may be polygonal in the Stainless but they're not identical products.
MorphCross
06-07-14, 22:27
Let's be honest here, a 5 second google search would have made it very clear that Noveske is still in business. Pretending not to know otherwise looks like product bias. Also, Noveske doesn't make BHW barrels - both may be polygonal in the Stainless but they're not identical products.
Agreed, there was a lot of misinformation in Eye Patch's post. Just because H&K uses cold hammer forging to make their Polygonal rifled barrels doesn't mean that all polygonal rifling is made from CHF. Pac-Nor has done polygonal rifling with buttons. Noveske used to use (and may still) Pac-Nor machinery to make their barrels.
Also, and this is a huge pet peeve because it is a bald face lie, Melonite which is actually a formulation of salt bath nitride, is not a coating but is rather a heat treat with the added benefit of a high Rockwell hardness on the outer surface of the metal and high corrosion resistance. Nitride also does nothing for the slickness of the material. That is imparted by the surface polish methods. Case in point both my S&W m&p 10 and .300 blackout have melonited barrels. The exterior surface has a consistent bead blast feel where as the bore has a mirror smooth surface to the naked eye.
Obscenejesster
06-07-14, 23:45
I always forget who makes the Polygonal Cut Rainier MEDCON. Is it Black Hole or White Oak?
Also what is Black Oxide compared to Black Nitride or Melinite?
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MorphCross
06-08-14, 00:05
Black Oxide is done at a lower temperature than Nitride or Melonite. Also the formulation of the bath for Black Oxide is different.
Obscenejesster
06-08-14, 09:11
Black Oxide is done at a lower temperature than Nitride or Melonite. Also the formulation of the bath for Black Oxide is different.
Does it add corrosion resistance to the steel or is it just there to make the barrel black?
MorphCross
06-08-14, 09:56
It will add moderate corrosion resistance, but you would still want to apply a light amount of rust prevention oil to the outer surface.
It is by large a cheaper mass process of treating and finishing rifle barrels, it is also a safer process when compared to Melonite or Hard Chroming.
I know this is an ancient thread, but it seems an appropriate place to support a good vendor.
Disclaimer: my Blackhole build was never intended to be a service rifle, but an accurate range toy. I firmly believe that chrome lining is not a benefit in anything other than a service rifle and is arguably detrimental to accuracy.
That said, I owe Carl some publicity for his excellent service. My new upper was experiencing FTE at an alarming frequency. This was using a Spikes BCG and a Rainier forged upper. Headspacing was good and I tried dialing the gas up and down with no success. I blamed first the upper and changed to a Mega billet upper so I could play with my Young NM side charger (again, not a service rifle, not sure I would recommend the NM carrier for that).
Problem did not go away and I blamed the barrel ext and/or chamber. Blackhole told me to send it right in and they'd make it right. I was nervous to do so since the panic started in December and vendors ceased to provide real customer service. I was surprised to have Carl call me within a day of receipt of the upper. He checked the chamber and found no issues but discovered that the carrier was impacting the front of the upper. He offered to machine the carrier for me at no cost. Neither the carrier nor the upper are his product. Anyways, I didn't want that upper to be forever tied to that carrier so I declined. He called the owner of Mega for me and discussed it and he is managing the repair/rebuild. That is above and beyond, so he deserves an attaboy.
My buddy bought a Blackhole at the same time and is having excellent results. I for one would like to see this company succeed. They offer a lot of interesting chamberings and I will be buying more in the future.
Whether it is correct or not, I've read that odd-numbered rifling profiles offer less resistance to bullet travel because the bullet material deforms more easily.
McGraff, if you read this, what platform is your 6.5-284 barrel? I've been wanting to work with that cartridge.
Agree with Black Hole Weaponry's service and attention to detail. I am convinced their "big cheese", Carl Caudle, is not only a first-class gunsmith but his concern for customer satisfaction is impressive - and it is reflected by his small work-force. They bend over backwards to please.
My first build - my M4-profile 300 Blackout - i convinced them to install a Stag Arms "AMBI" barrel extension onto their barrel. This is no longer necessary as their production manager, "Andy", has convinced me the Black Hole Weaponry-made barrel extensions are fully suitable for right-handed OR left-handed ejection.
In the process of fine-tuning the completed barrel, they undoubtably gaged the head-space - and noting a minscule discrepancy - ever-so-slightly "touched" the inside of the installed and pinned barrel extension with a lathe tool, making the finished barrel .... dare I say it? I will. Perfect!!!
Shoots 125gr FMJ rounds like a laser beam ...... If I sight and hold properly, I can shoot 5-6 rounds and there will be 3-4 distinct holes. The two others went into - or almost into - prior holes ..... That's WAY good enough for my needs!!!
I say they promise excellent barrels - and deliver even better ones!
This guy sounds like one of those freaking tv pitchman...
ScatmanCrothers
06-08-14, 12:08
This guy sounds like one of those freaking tv pitchman...
We've just had the wool pulled over our eyes all this time. The real "cream of the crop" in AR manufacturing lies in Anderson's branded lowers and BHW barrels :rolleyes:
Obscenejesster
06-08-14, 13:06
The guy is probably just supporting the company he decided to give money too.
In regards to Black Hole barrels, I've never used one but I've heard good things about them and wouldn't hesitate using one.
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TacticalMark
06-08-14, 13:41
They offer decent barrels. In my sample size of one, I have 16" mid 1/8 twist stainless NATO chambered. Very accurate, under MOA at 100yrds with good ammo. Have not shot for groups any farther. Huge gas port .082 and is over gassed.
Is it cheaper to rifle a barrel with 3 grooves?
On a polygonal barrel, they're not really "grooves"; more like "lobes". Ever look at a Glock barrel? I think they're a little easier to really observe in a shorter length barrel. Not sure sending a barrel into a rotary forging hammer mill matters whether it's a 3, 5 or more "lobed" bore. Maybe the owner of Black Hole Weaponry can answer the question.
From a standpoint of sheer physics, trying to "deform" a copper-jacketed bullet - by explosive force - down a bore with less contact area seems the most logical. And - I'm guessing - with only 3 "open" spaces around the bullet, there's less space to have to seal.
I keep hearing about increased muzzle velocities - using identical rounds - in favor of a polygonal barrel vs. traditional Enfield" rifling. That and the dramatically reduced copper / lead fouling - i.e. easier cleaning - in the bore is what sold me on going to a poly design.
Mine shoot VERY accurately. Have no way - or desire - to gauge velocity. I pull the trigger, BANG! - and a hole appears in my target.
:D
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