View Full Version : Sig 226 - Thoughts?
Used to have a Sig 226 and thought it was a nice gun. I did some reading on it and it seems it was used by many SEAL teams. There are also many with 25,000+ round counts and virtually no failures.
With this in mind, is there a reason it doesn't seem to be talked about much here? Most everything I see is about Glocks and M&P's.
I've never been a big Sig fan due to the DA/SA trigger set up. I tried the DAK, but I didn't care for the double reset. I did get the opportunity to play with the Blackwater edition (now called Tactical Operations) and it is an amazing pistol. The Short Reset Trigger is very nice, even the double action is pretty smooth. Nice front fiber optic sight, front serrations and beavertail. The grip hangs lower and creates an extended magwell. It also comes with four 20 round (extended) mags.
High bore axis and trigger are negatives. I have owned one 226 9mm and it ran like a timex.
When my agency was "Sig only," I opted to carry a personally owned P226R 9mm. My thought was it wasn't really any harder to conceal than our issued P228, had higher capacity, and a longer sight radius; plus, it just balanced better in my hand and pointed more naturally.
It was 100% reliable through three years of daily carry and several high-round count training iterations. It was VERY accurate - possibly the most accurate non-1911/P7 "duty" gun I'd ever fired. It had no recoil to speak of.
That's the good news. The bad news is the Sig is heavy and large - especially considering its relatively modest capacity. In .40 and .357, the high bore axis make it a pretty "snappy" pistol in recoil - lots of muzzle flip making it hard to keep on target for fast follow ups. The finish on Sigs is relatively fragile - the nitron tends to scratch pretty easily, and the non-coated controls will rust while you watch them if you live in a high heat/humidity area, or if you carry it up against your sweaty hide.
As soon as my agency opened the door to other brand of personal firearms, I switched to a G19, and have never looked back.
Regards,
Kevin
Never was a big fan of the Sig Sauer pistols because my hands are too small for their guns. But I did buy the Sig 226 E2 when it came out because of the reduced back strap and the Short Reset Trigger :D
I was working a Checkpoint outside of Fallujah and saw some Seals roll by. They stopped and hung out for a bit. They were rolling around with Shorty M4's with cans and Sig 226's on their thighs. :cool:
Sigs are good guns, although their QC has been lacking lately. Had a few people at the range have problems with their various Sigs. Mosquitos were failing to feed, GSR 1911 Target had a rear sight fall off, and a P250 had problems ejecting. But I haven't had problems with mine. So I guess I'm lucky.
I like my P226. It shoots the tiny groups : )
http://i44.tinypic.com/dy97qf.jpg
These days, I'll skip new Sigs due to numerous QC and functional issues we've seen, although the older German made Sig 9 mm’s are superb...
These days, I'll skip new Sigs due to numerous QC and functional issues we've seen, although the older German made Sig 9 mm’s are superb...
What kind of issues have you seen?
I have an HK USP 40, an M&P 9 FS w/apex sear and a Sig P226. I love the consistent trigger pull and mag capacity of the M&P and the “bomb proofness” of the HK, but I shoot the Sig the best by far. Granted I have much more trigger time on the 226, but I just seem to be much more accurate with it. The higher bore axis doesn’t bother me but the reset is much too long (I don’t have the SRT). If I could get a P226 with the trigger of my M&P w/apex sear (consistent trigger pull form first shot to last), that would be the bee’s knees for me.
The P226 is by far the most comfortable handgun I have held and shot; however, as others have said, it is big and heavy.
ChicagoTex
05-02-10, 03:47
I doubt you'll find anyone on this forum who will knock the "classic" SIGs (210, 220, 225, 226, 228, 229, 230, 232, 239, and 245). They are very reliable and very accurate.
The problem is that SIGs are fairly low-tech by today's standards. They tend to be larger, weigh more, and have lower capacities than most competitors. Moreover, most of them are DA/SAs, something people generally seem to be moving away from in favor on single mode striker fired pistols.
It also doesn't help that, unless you're buying used, SIGs tend to be $200-$300 pricier than most competitors. While I personally don't feel like a new Glock is objectively "better" than a used SIG in excellent condition, many people are still sensitive to that issue.
SIG tried to win the single-mode crowd over with their DAK system, but missed the mark in my opinion by pursuing a double-mode spring-assist arrangement with counter-intuitive pull weights and a double reset. I personally compared the DAK system extensively to H&K's LEM take on the problem and found the LEM pull preferable to either of the DAK's modes. I also liked the fact that it had one (admittedly long) reset and most crucially of all, was truly failsafe (if the spring breaks the gun will still function as a conventional DAO). I don't know if the DAK system is failsafe, but I wouldn't count on it.
In short, SIG tried to win over the simple is better crowd by developing something MORE complicated than DA/SA - bad move in my opinion.
And then there are the recent QC complaints. As far as I've seen and heard most of these aren't critical in the sense that reliability is compromised (excepting the P220 extractor issues of the past decade), but it is certainly obvious to me comparing current manufacture SIGs to similar earlier models. It's not just fit and finish issues, but triggers, decockers, slide-to-frame fit and feel all seem a bit more rough these days. It's the sort of thing you'd find acceptable on a Glock, but for $800+ beans it can and SHOULD be better.
What kind of issues have you seen?
I'm not the Doctor, but I had a P229R DAK whose grip bushings were mis-machined to the point where no grips could mate onto it (and this was a pistol I bought from a commercial vendor, so it had been looked over repeatedly). Sent the pistol in for evaluation, and they sent me a DA/SA P229 as a replacement, when the one I sent in was a DAK. The trigger pull on that one was AWFUL - at least 14 pounds, gritty, with multiple points of "stacking" throughout the pull. It went back and finally, I got a functional, properly built P229R DAK. And, I'm not bragging, but because of the good fortune I have in my current position, I'm someone the people at Sig know personally, and would, typically, like to impress.
When our agency transitioned to DAKs in .40, we had numerous reliability issues (FTF, FTEx, FTEj) with the P239s we got. This was immediately apparent at our "train the trainer" transition course, and the Sig reps on hand were not able to even explain what was causing the failures - just gave out new P239s to anyone who's pistol wasn't working.
There have been downward trends in Sig quality - plastic guide rods replacing metal guide rods, a HUGE increase in MIM parts, and legion reports of shoddy workmanship on what should be "Cadillac" pistols. Likewise, there were lots of "teething pains" with new models - the P250, GSR, P238, 556, and Mosquito all seemed to be released to market with the intent to let consumers be the "beta testers" for those designs. All in all, I'm with Doc on this one - if I was in the market for a Sig, I'd be looking for something made prior to about 2005...
Regards,
Kevin
Luckystiff
05-02-10, 17:14
My department issues the SIG P226R in .40. The first batch we got in 2006 are standard. The rest have the Short Reset Trigger (SRT). All of my guys are laterals from other agencies so we all carried a mix of guns at our old jobs. I had carried a Beretta 96 and I found the SRT trigger to be a big improvement. The guys that carried Glocks notice it much less. We have not had any issues with the guns and SIG has been outstanding when it comes to support. The USA made ones with the stainless steal slides are heavier than the older German ones. The boss asked me the other day if I would chose the SIG again if we were buying guns today. I told him no I would push for the S&W M&P. My reason is that it is a general issue weapon and the M&P is easier to use overall because of the striker vs. DA/SA and no need for a decocker. If it is a personal gun the SIG is great just get the SRT as it is a marked improvement from where I am standing.
My department issues the SIG P226R in .40. The first batch we got in 2006 are standard. The rest have the Short Reset Trigger (SRT). All of my guys are laterals from other agencies so we all carried a mix of guns at our old jobs. I had carried a Beretta 96 and I found the SRT trigger to be a big improvement. The guys that carried Glocks notice it much less. We have not had any issues with the guns and SIG has been outstanding when it comes to support. The USA made ones with the stainless steal slides are heavier than the older German ones. The boss asked me the other day if I would chose the SIG again if we were buying guns today. I told him no I would push for the S&W M&P. My reason is that it is a general issue weapon and the M&P is easier to use overall because of the striker vs. DA/SA and no need for a decocker. If it is a personal gun the SIG is great just get the SRT as it is a marked improvement from where I am standing.
I have never used a non-SRT SIG, but both of my SRT guns needed some work. One got professional work, and one got me+400-grit sand-paper. Both improved markedly, but the one that got professional attention with the 2200grit sand-paper from someone who knows SIGs is better in SA than my Les Baer TRS is and rivals a Wilson Supergrade I used to own.
WIthout the work, the one I did was pure crap, and that was after 1000+ rounds to "smooth it out". I mean, it felt bad. Serious start/stop grittiness.
That pistol was made in 2006, I belive.
My latest one was Oct. 2009. Stainless Elite P226 in 357SIG. It fired the group posted in my first response to this thread.
I'm not the Doctor, but I had a P229R DAK whose grip bushings were mis-machined to the point where no grips could mate onto it (and this was a pistol I bought from a commercial vendor, so it had been looked over repeatedly). Sent the pistol in for evaluation, and they sent me a DA/SA P229 as a replacement, when the one I sent in was a DAK. The trigger pull on that one was AWFUL - at least 14 pounds, gritty, with multiple points of "stacking" throughout the pull. It went back and finally, I got a functional, properly built P229R DAK. And, I'm not bragging, but because of the good fortune I have in my current position, I'm someone the people at Sig know personally, and would, typically, like to impress.
When our agency transitioned to DAKs in .40, we had numerous reliability issues (FTF, FTEx, FTEj) with the P239s we got. This was immediately apparent at our "train the trainer" transition course, and the Sig reps on hand were not able to even explain what was causing the failures - just gave out new P239s to anyone who's pistol wasn't working.
There have been downward trends in Sig quality - plastic guide rods replacing metal guide rods, a HUGE increase in MIM parts, and legion reports of shoddy workmanship on what should be "Cadillac" pistols. Likewise, there were lots of "teething pains" with new models - the P250, GSR, P238, 556, and Mosquito all seemed to be released to market with the intent to let consumers be the "beta testers" for those designs. All in all, I'm with Doc on this one - if I was in the market for a Sig, I'd be looking for something made prior to about 2005...
Regards,
Kevin
I am not a fan of SIG's "new stuff", but I think the P226 and P229 lines are still good. I have had QC issues from Wilson Combat (supergrade, sight kept coming loose, and a host of other issues), Benelli (front-sight crooked on M4), Sabre Defense (bolt machined wrong, shaved brass and locked up the ejector in it's tunnel inside 200 rounds), SIG (Take-down lever pivoted around the "brad", it was part of a bad batch, and FTE's with nickel cases that SIG polished the chamber to fix), Colt 1911 (slide-stop snapped), Les Baer (TRS, FTRB's well past 600 rounds, machine-marks worse than any hi-point I ever saw).
(I even know a guy who had a G19 that rusted worse than a remington 870 in a swamp--sitting on his nightstand in just a few days. Glock re-finished it and it did it again. EVERY company can have problems even with things they are suppsoed to NOT have problems with).
I learned a valuable (expensive) lesson from all this: If you cannot inspect the gun in person before money changes hands...make sure the DEALER has a refund policy if you see problems before you fill out paperwork, and INSPECT IT VERY THOROUGHLY!
Wilson Combat claims less than a 1% warrenty return rate, yet my Supergrade saw the inside of their shop twice for warrenty work inside 500 rounds and the third time my dealer bought it back from me.
Anything can have problems, so pick a design you like, and then go find an example of it that noone had a drunken-monday while building.
I like the P226 because I can take it down to the last roll-pin and small-part and replace anything that messes up. If the barrel, frame, and slide are machined correctly, any other problem with the gun is user-fixable if you have even a small amount of mechanical ability. That and the DESIGN is one of excellent reliability and durability.
The group I posted above was fired from my P226 after some trigger-work, new sights, and QPQ finish treatment on the barrel and other parts of the gun. The lock-up was not changed from factory. The P226 is one heck of an accurate platform.
If you like DA/SA pistols and are considering a P226 or a P229 I highly recommend you take a look at the FN FNX.
We're a long-time SIG department. While I realize SIG's quality control has had serious ups and downs, we've been pretty fortunate that the pistols and magazines we've purchased have been in good shape. Of course, when I purchased a spare magazine for my new 229R (purchased during the supposed "world-wide magazine shortage" when SIG only supplied one magazine per weapon), it was a piece of garbage. I was never able to fully load the mag and haven't been able to reassemble it.
I've heard that SIG is putting more emphasis on QC, but I have my doubts. If I were to select a weapon for my agency today, it would probably be the M&P.
We're a long-time SIG department. While I realize SIG's quality control has had serious ups and downs, we've been pretty fortunate that the pistols and magazines we've purchased have been in good shape. Of course, when I purchased a spare magazine for my new 229R (purchased during the supposed "world-wide magazine shortage" when SIG only supplied one magazine per weapon), it was a piece of garbage. I was never able to fully load the mag and haven't been able to reassemble it.
I've heard that SIG is putting more emphasis on QC, but I have my doubts. If I were to select a weapon for my agency today, it would probably be the M&P.
Sig USA hasn't made a magazine that I know of. All their mags are Mecgar or other third parties made under contract for Sig, with a rare batch imported from Germany. IIRC S&W uses Mecgar for their mags too along with many of the major gun companies.
Now I have to ask did you attempt to contact Sig?
We're a long-time SIG department. While I realize SIG's quality control has had serious ups and downs, we've been pretty fortunate that the pistols and magazines we've purchased have been in good shape. Of course, when I purchased a spare magazine for my new 229R (purchased during the supposed "world-wide magazine shortage" when SIG only supplied one magazine per weapon), it was a piece of garbage. I was never able to fully load the mag and haven't been able to reassemble it.
I've heard that SIG is putting more emphasis on QC, but I have my doubts. If I were to select a weapon for my agency today, it would probably be the M&P.
Odd that you could not re-assemble it. It has 5 parts total, and they fit togather before you took it apart.
Yes, SIG/Mecgar mags sometimes need to be broken in. You load 10 rounds, unload, load 11, unload, load 12, leave to set for a few days. Problem solved.
Yes, SIG/Mecgar mags sometimes need to be broken in. You load 10 rounds, unload, load 11, unload, load 12, leave to set for a few days. Problem solved.
You know I've never done that. I just use my Uplula and load it to capacity and shoot it a few times.
i like it so much I even got its little brother the 229. It is super reliable and accurate. I have shot it in a competition in the rain and works just fine. It never jams or gives me any grief. It is one of the finest pistols ever made. The sights are awesome; they always return back to the target and I can punch really small groups real fast. GREAT PISTOL. just my $0.02
You know I've never done that. I just use my Uplula and load it to capacity and shoot it a few times.
I load by hand, and consider that I am a decently strong individual. It was physically impossible for me to get more than 10 rounds in my 357/40 mags the first time. I even dented the casings of the top rounds with the rim of the round I was trying to load. Once I finally DID muscle my way into getting it loaded, it would not fit in the weapon due to the sides of the mag bulging until I unloaded it/re-loaded it half a dozen times. After that, smooth sailing, and I have NEVER had a malfunction of any sort with my P226/357SIG. Granted, only 500 or so down the tube though.
*No, I did not shove 12 rounds into a pre-ban mag :p
i like it so much I even got its little brother the 229. It is super reliable and accurate. I have shot it in a competition in the rain and works just fine. It never jams or gives me any grief. It is one of the finest pistols ever made. The sights are awesome; they always return back to the target and I can punch really small groups real fast. GREAT PISTOL. just my $0.02
The sights are my one complaint. I prefer Trijicon over Meprolite.
I like the brighter white around the element that the Trijicon offers. It helps a lot in day-time shooting.
As I said, we've had good luck with the magazines and pistols delivered to the agency. My personal 229R and the included magazine have worked great.
I was surprised when the magazine I purchased did not work. It is marked as made in the United States, but there is no indication of the manufacturer that I can find.
Proving by my description that I am not an armorer, the stub that fits into the magazine floorplate is too wide to re-assembly the magzine.
I was surprised when the magazine I purchased did not work. It is marked as made in the United States, but there is no indication of the manufacturer that I can find.
Unless you purchased it in the last couple of months, that magazine is not an official Sig magazine or a Mecgar. Until real recently all Sig mags for the P226 or P229 were either made in Italy, or in rare cases Germany.
And I don't believe they've switched any of the production except the SCT to US made magazines. My P226 that I purchased earlier this year came with German made magazines. And my P229 Caliber Xchange kit that I purchased last month came with Mecgar made Italian mags.
I load by hand, and consider that I am a decently strong individual. It was physically impossible for me to get more than 10 rounds in my 357/40 mags the first time. I even dented the casings of the top rounds with the rim of the round I was trying to load. Once I finally DID muscle my way into getting it loaded, it would not fit in the weapon due to the sides of the mag bulging until I unloaded it/re-loaded it half a dozen times. After that, smooth sailing, and I have NEVER had a malfunction of any sort with my P226/357SIG. Granted, only 500 or so down the tube though.
*No, I did not shove 12 rounds into a pre-ban mag :p
I can't visualize that for some reason. Sig mags are made pretty stout, what part of the mag was bulging? The only time I never could insert the mag into a Sig was when I tried to insert a P229-1 magazine (designed for a 40/357 framed P229) into my P228R.
Anyways it should work well if you keep it lubed, I have two Sig with excess of 10,000 rounds through them, and another that should reach 10,000 rounds in a month.
Dan Goodwin
05-03-10, 07:50
We've had some breakage issues with 229Rs: takedown levers, ejectors. Not a lot of high round count training.
The P229s we first issued to detectives c. '96 always ran well if lubed and mine saw a couple of high round count trips to MISS with no issues. The finish on the SS slides wore off and they looked ugly, but bought mine when dept. traded for new ones for all couple years back.
Personal Rule of Thumb: don't get one made since they changed to marking the frames with electric pencils. Rollmarked 229s and 226s I've handled and shot always ran like Mercedes.
I've since sold my old SIG; the pawnshops around here are full of low-mileage Glocks for hundreds less than a new SIG, too.
I can't visualize that for some reason. Sig mags are made pretty stout, what part of the mag was bulging? The only time I never could insert the mag into a Sig was when I tried to insert a P229-1 magazine (designed for a 40/357 framed P229) into my P228R.
Anyways it should work well if you keep it lubed, I have two Sig with excess of 10,000 rounds through them, and another that should reach 10,000 rounds in a month.
Worked fine after I broke the springs in on the mags. Before that happened, they would not drop free when fully loaded, and required a bit of muscle to get inserted past the 1/3 point. The left and right walls of the mag were buldged out, based on what I could see corraborated with the issues inserting it and the subsequent rub/wear marks created by the issue. I have heard of this before but didn't believe it myself until it occured.
We've had some breakage issues with 229Rs: takedown levers, ejectors. Not a lot of high round count training.
The P229s we first issued to detectives c. '96 always ran well if lubed and mine saw a couple of high round count trips to MISS with no issues. The finish on the SS slides wore off and they looked ugly, but bought mine when dept. traded for new ones for all couple years back.
Personal Rule of Thumb: don't get one made since they changed to marking the frames with electric pencils. Rollmarked 229s and 226s I've handled and shot always ran like Mercedes.
I've since sold my old SIG; the pawnshops around here are full of low-mileage Glocks for hundreds less than a new SIG, too.
I replaced my TD lever with the tool-steel Combat model. My ejector is still stock though.
Magic_Salad0892
05-03-10, 09:22
I'd rather have an FNX or Beretta M9A1. (I like the M9A1 a lot actually.)
I was initially hesitant to purchase a Sig due to the outlandish claims of "smoothness", "reliability", etc., etc. Then Sig came up with the P226 Navy and I tried it. Holy Sheisse!! The pistol was a smooth and reliable as everyone had been expounding and it is spookily accurate (3 magazines full of Winchester White Box at 25 yards into a 3 inch target). I sent that pistol back for an SRT trigger and it was awesome. Sold it. For a P226R with Navy markings. Placed the SRT parts into it and it, too, has been phenomenal. Very accurate, very smooth, very reliable, little felt recoil. The SRT parts reduce the trigger reset to be slightly less than that on a Glock. If you *MUST* have a Double Action pistol it's hard to beat the Sig P226.
There has been an increase in MIM parts - extractor, for example - and I've been told by a gentleman who used to work there that Sig is undergoing a QC Program, for lack of better terminology, that will require QC checks for every component as they do in Deutschland. Hopefully, this is happening.
I was initially hesitant to purchase a Sig due to the outlandish claims of "smoothness", "reliability", etc., etc. Then Sig came up with the P226 Navy and I tried it. Holy Sheisse!! The pistol was a smooth and reliable as everyone had been expounding and it is spookily accurate (3 magazines full of Winchester White Box at 25 yards into a 3 inch target). I sent that pistol back for an SRT trigger and it was awesome. Sold it. For a P226R with Navy markings. Placed the SRT parts into it and it, too, has been phenomenal. Very accurate, very smooth, very reliable, little felt recoil. The SRT parts reduce the trigger reset to be slightly less than that on a Glock. If you *MUST* have a Double Action pistol it's hard to beat the Sig P226.
There has been an increase in MIM parts - extractor, for example - and I've been told by a gentleman who used to work there that Sig is undergoing a QC Program, for lack of better terminology, that will require QC checks for every component as they do in Deutschland. Hopefully, this is happening.
I agree, and stuff can/does break. However, as long as the frame/slide/barrel are G2G, the rest is a 5-minute job to replace. IF you get 500 rounds through the gun and nothing breaks, I doubt it will any time soon. Kindof like the non HPT AR-bolt, imho. Just as good as HPT...if you get 2-400 rounds through it.
My issued pistol is a 226RDAK in .40 caliber. We got them around 2005 maybe 06. They have been flawless. I also have a 220ST from early 2000 maybe. It's also flawless. Can't speak for the newer stuff coming out. My 226 probably has 10000 or more rounds through it with not a problem.
I agree, and stuff can/does break. However, as long as the frame/slide/barrel are G2G, the rest is a 5-minute job to replace. IF you get 500 rounds through the gun and nothing breaks, I doubt it will any time soon. Kind of like the non HPT AR-bolt, imho. Just as good as HPT... if you get 2-400 rounds through it.
I agree. I try to do 500 rounds plus several mags self-defense ammo, the vast majority running various drills, through any new (to me) pistol on the first range session.
I was told by some Army Marksmanship Unit guys that "Sig Sauer P226 9mm frames are good until around 250,000 rounds - and then they crack."
That's more rounds then I can afford to run through it - well, not really but you get my point. I consider them good to go with one caveat: get the SRT trigger installed.
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