View Full Version : DHS wants HK P-2000's
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=d905ad3c2fd11ecfe17f6491b76501fc&tab=core&_cview=0
Anyone know which caliber they currently use?
These are for Customs and Border Protection, Field Operations and Border Patrol. They Shoot .40S&W.
Robb Jensen
05-02-10, 10:20
They've had the P2000 LEMs for at least a year now maybe longer, they must be buying more.
They've had the P2000 LEMs for at least a year now maybe longer, they must be buying more.
Are they transitioning away from the Sigs?
Customs and Border Protection does not carry the SIG, never had. Back when DHS was created they divided up the pistol contracts between SIG for ICE, Secret Service, FAMS, and the little agencies that fell under the ICE umbrella, CBP components, Office of Field Operations (ports and airports), Border Patrol (between ports), and Air and Marine got the HK's. CBP is staying with the HK's and is buying more. The other DHS components can only wait and hope for something else for now.
The other DHS components can only wait and hope for something else for now.
Does that mean that they're not happy with the SIGs?
No. Not happy at all at the field level.
No. Not happy at all at the field level.
Why, what are the complaints?
Why, what are there complaints?
I'm not in any DHS element, but, I can venture a guess. A lot of "legacy Customs" agents were previously carrying G19s. The transition to the P229R DAK gave them a much heavier pistol with lower capacity, and a trigger that's not easy to work well at speed, especially if you're used to a Glock trigger.
We transitioned from P228s (M11s) to the same DAK-equipped P229R in .40, and the overall reception has been lukewarm at best. Anyone who's a real "shooter" finds that the trigger weight and length of reset is a dramatic step backwards from the DA/SA trigger of the M11. The P229Rs are significantly heavier than the M11s, and, with the high bore axis that's part and parcel of any Sig "classic" design, muzzle flip with the .40 is fairly drastic.
Luckily, we have a pretty lenient personal weapons policy, so, anyone who's a real "gun" person can carry just about anything they want in 9mm or .40...
Regards,
Kevin
Many Agents don't like the LEM trigger required on our P2000s. I don't find it that horrible personally. I enjoy the pistol itself because of where the controls are located. The magazine release location and its press down style make it convenient for people of all hand types in my opinion. I know it makes it a lot easier for me with smaller hands versus a traditional button style release located on the frame.
Some Agents for whatever reason also have USP Compacts which takes the same magazine. They are allowed to qual with and carry both.
Why, what are the complaints?
Most of our P229R's are prone to lots of quality control issues. At the academy, 12 of 25 of my classmates' Sigs had either a broken FP, broken trigger springs, front sights fell off and bad recoil springs. Mine had a loose front sight. After about a year, mine would not go into battery after every shot and had a the recoil spring replaced. A week after that, I noticed the barrel was cracked when cleaning it. The handgun was replaced for a new one and I had no other problems with it other than the terrible DAK trigger. Many of my coworkers have similar problems with the recoil spring and since my life depends on my handgun, I bought a HK P2000 with my own $$ which I can carry on duty. I no longer have to worry about a faulty gun and the LEM trigger is much better. Quite a few others have bought their own USPc or P2000 for the same reason. Even out BUG 239's jam quite a bit as they need to be run real wet. Those who have been issued the 239 have turned them in and bought a G26 or J frame S&W with their own $$, myself included. I hear the same storied from other agents throughout the country so it's not just isolated. I'll never buy a Sig and never reccomend them but I think the QC problems are due to them throwing together these DHS contract guns without inspecting them.
It's good (or not good really) to hear real complaints about those who are issued them. Although our P2000s aren't well liked for whatever reason by some, no one really has had major issues with them such as parts breaking, etc. that I know of. Our work environment as BP is also a lot rougher than nearly all other federal LE agencies, and they aren't cleaned as often as they should be (mine incuded admittedly).
Frankly, I am shocked to hear this about SIG, I always thought they were among the top names in pistols in all aspects. I owned a P226R as a personal fun gun before and it was definitely well built. Granted, I haven't fired it as much as the duty pistol because it was a fun gun...
Wow. I use to shoot sigs all the time, I guess I'm not getting rid of my older sigs now. They run well.
Alpha Sierra
05-02-10, 19:46
I would carry the CS-1 if I was in CBP and they would let me.
Robb Jensen
05-02-10, 20:14
I would carry the CS-1 if I was in CBP and they would let me.
Is that the stainless S&W revolver? If so I've seen one and they're nice, simple and they work!
Alpha Sierra
05-02-10, 20:55
Is that the stainless S&W revolver? If so I've seen one and they're nice, simple and they work!
3" 686. Very desirable......
Many of my coworkers have similar problems with the recoil spring and since my life depends on my handgun, I bought a HK P2000 with my own $$ which I can carry on duty.
Do you work for ICE-OI??? I did not think the P2000 was authorized. I know the P2000SK is as a BUG/secondary. Frankly, I want my Glock 19 back.
Most of our P229R's are prone to lots of quality control issues. At the academy, 12 of 25 of my classmates' Sigs had either a broken FP, broken trigger springs, front sights fell off and bad recoil springs. Mine had a loose front sight. After about a year, mine would not go into battery after every shot and had a the recoil spring replaced. A week after that, I noticed the barrel was cracked when cleaning it. The handgun was replaced for a new one and I had no other problems with it other than the terrible DAK trigger. Many of my coworkers have similar problems with the recoil spring and since my life depends on my handgun, I bought a HK P2000 with my own $$ which I can carry on duty. I no longer have to worry about a faulty gun and the LEM trigger is much better. Quite a few others have bought their own USPc or P2000 for the same reason. Even out BUG 239's jam quite a bit as they need to be run real wet. Those who have been issued the 239 have turned them in and bought a G26 or J frame S&W with their own $$, myself included. I hear the same storied from other agents throughout the country so it's not just isolated. I'll never buy a Sig and never reccomend them but I think the QC problems are due to them throwing together these DHS contract guns without inspecting them.
That is what I was asking. thanks for the answer
Bulldog7972
05-03-10, 07:32
What am I doing wrong? I have shot thousands of rounds through my 226, 228,229 and 239 and have not have one malfunction or part break. Did I just happen to get the Sig's that work well and are problem free? I like Sigs so much and since mine have been problem free, I went out and bought another one. You guys are making me worry,lol.
Do you work for ICE-OI??? I did not think the P2000 was authorized. I know the P2000SK is as a BUG/secondary. Frankly, I want my Glock 19 back.
No, ICE DRO. And I, too miss the G19. They took that option away from us about a year after I came aboard. I'll take a 9mm Glock over any other weapons we're allowed to carry anyday.
What am I doing wrong? I have shot thousands of rounds through my 226, 228,229 and 239 and have not have one malfunction or part break. Did I just happen to get the Sig's that work well and are problem free? I like Sigs so much and since mine have been problem free, I went out and bought another one. You guys are making me worry,lol.
Bulldog, I think the problem is with the LE agency guns. I've also seen posts on the Internet of other police agencies who've had QC problems with their Sigs. I think Sig made excellent handguns when they were made in Germany. My first handgun was a P239 and it was 100% problem free. I'm just leery of them because some of us go into harms way and there are way too many problems with the ones they're issuing us. Perhaps they were under a time constraint and pushed them out as fast as they could which would explain some of the lemons they put out. It's possible they've fixed their problems as my last issued P229 ran 100%. With Glocks priced so right and 100% reliable out of the box, I can't justify paying what HK and Sig charge. I only bought the P2000 because it was my only choice for a reputable carry gun and we get a substantial discount on them. I would have never bought one as a personal piece. In fact when I carried the P229 on duty, I would leave it at work and carry my G23 off duty.
John_Wayne777
05-04-10, 06:57
What am I doing wrong? I have shot thousands of rounds through my 226, 228,229 and 239 and have not have one malfunction or part break. Did I just happen to get the Sig's that work well and are problem free? I like Sigs so much and since mine have been problem free, I went out and bought another one. You guys are making me worry,lol.
Long ago Sig used to make most/all of their own small parts, and used to put all of their parts through a rigorous inspection process before actually using them to assemble a finished firearm, which was then test fired for function before leaving the factory. This process produced extremely reliable, extremely durable guns out of the box.
It also wasn't making Sig much money.
Sig changed management in 2005. Priority one for the new team was economizing to generate more profits. Part of the economizing was to do away with a number of the things that built Sig's reputation. Instead of the laborious and expensive QC processes, they focused on making guns in a rainbow of colors. The gun-buying public rewarded these decisions with record-breaking sales for the company...which reinforces the "wisdom" of the decisions to ditch all that expensive QC and parts production.
The current state of Sig is mixed. They still unquestionably produce some guns that run really well. They also produce more lemons than they ever have. Agencies who issue large numbers of guns are prone to discover more of these problems than someone who owns even half a dozen sigs. Sig is by no means a crap company, but neither are they as good as they used to be. They aren't extraordinary in their commitment to putting out a quality product like they used to be. Now they are like most other gun companies, only they capitalize on their reputation for extraordinary quality in the market place. Most buyers are not well informed enough to know the difference anyway.
If your guns run, don't panic. Shoot them and enjoy them. Just realize that if your preference for Sigs was based on the pre-2005 company that you aren't dealing with the same entity today when you buy a new gun.
No, ICE DRO. And I, too miss the G19. They took that option away from us about a year after I came aboard. I'll take a 9mm Glock over any other weapons we're allowed to carry anyday.
I was hoping you worked for OI and found a way to carry the P2000!
SmokeJumper
05-04-10, 19:45
I've seen a few of the Agents carrying the HK USP Compact .40. I think someone mentioned that above, I was always curious to know why they selected the compact version instead of the full size. With the P2000, the P2000SK would great as the BUG, as an HK fan and shooter/carrier I think it would be a very reliable carry option.
"I was always curious to know why they selected the compact version instead of the full size."
Which one fits a wider variety of hand sizes?
SmokeJumper
05-05-10, 00:18
"I was always curious to know why they selected the compact version instead of the full size."
Which one fits a wider variety of hand sizes?
True very true........good point
CBP have been using the P2000 in .40 for well over a year now I believe. They are also trying to get onto the BP purchase of Federal 180gr ammo which BP transitioned to in December of last year. The attitude that I get from the FLETC firearms division on the P2000 versus the Sigs, Berettas, or Glocks was that it was just another alternative. A good pistol, but none of them were exceptional standouts in comparison to the other pistols used in the division. Keep up on scheduled parts replacements via your armorer, and maintain it accordingly and any of them will serve you well.
The DHS contract for the CBP P2000's was awarded back in August of '04. Prior to that, and the merger of INS and Customs, the USPc was the pistol chosen to replace the Beretta 96D Brigadier in INS use at the time and INS had only partially fielded the HK nation-wide by the '03 merger. Customs was issuing the G19 at the time, however, after the merger the decision was made to transition agency-wide to .40 S&W.
AZ-Renegade
08-09-10, 19:53
I have been carrying the P2000 on duty for 2-3 years now. As part of the BP firearms program I have seen and heard more than a few having parts failures. Some of these, like my first P2000, were caused by the thousands of rounds of 155gr .40 that were put through it. But I have seen several part failures that, to my knowledge, did not get that kind of workout and from agents who have had their pistol for less time than my own.
Most of these breakages are spring related, usually the return spring for the trigger. Basically, you fire the pistol and the trigger and hammer stay to the rear. You can manually push the trigger forward to reset and fire again but the same thing happens. This was the breakage that I experienced and I have seen/heard of five others at my station alone.
I've also seen several cases where the sights come loose and drift out of their dovetails. This may be contributed to instructors at the academy drifting trainees' sights to center their groups. My second P2000 appears to have an epoxy of some kind in the rear sight dovetail. I imagine if I tried to push it with a sight tool I may experience the same issue. I have no idea if the epoxy(if it is indeed epoxy) is a factory treatment or a fix performed by CBP armorers.
I'm not saying the P2000 is garbage, but seeing and experiencing these breakages does concern me. Having not spent equal range time with other pistol designs I cannot say if the P2000 has more or less problems than say, a Glock or M&P. For the most part it goes bang when i pull the trigger and for the time being it is a servicable secondary weapon.
3" 686. Very desirable......
And 4". I had a used one for a couple of years.
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