View Full Version : To sling or not to sling?
Guys,
I am nowhere near as hard core as many of you here on this forum. This is the forum I go to when I want serious questions answered or when I want serious opinions on the AR15/M4 weapons system.
After joining this site, I became convinced that I should put a two point sling on my "go to" rifles....so I bought a VCAS and have talked my friends in to getting them too.
So here's the thing:
I just did another carbine class on Saturday....my third. It was my first class with this particular company: Progressive Force Concepts out of Las Vegas.
Great instructors. Great training.
They were very "anti-sling". They said that slings certainly had their uses, but that they were potentially too much trouble. They gave various examples. One of which was how the sling can be used against you by an attacker. (Just like cops wear clip on ties so they don't get choked to death, slings are just big "grab on handles" for bad guys.)
Although they made a few good points, I'm not sure I agree with their view on slings. Maybe it's because I'm so used to my sling now...it's hard for me to think about ditching it.
We did transition drills...and I purposely did mine without the sling (just to see how it went). It felt fine.
I'm not a sucker for everything that I hear. That's one of the reasons I'm typing this post. I'd like to read what you guys think and mull it over for a few weeks. I'm scheduled for another carbine class with MDTS in July...so I'll do some experimentation.
Dos Cylindros
05-02-10, 22:28
Most hear will agree that a sling is a necessity. I really think they are important for a gun which you will be hunting with, or if you are a law enforcement officer (I could not imagine not having a sling on my issue gun). I do not think they are required for a stand alone home defense gun but that is my opinion only.
I do know from some study (reading) that for along time, probably to this day, the SAS does not use slings on their weapons for anything but dynamic entries, though this information might be outdated now. When I read that the SAS operator who wrote it explained that it was a mindset thing, and the point of it was to ensure they disciplined themselves to always have their weapon in hand and ready to fight.
So in short, for HD no, for nearly everything else I say yes. And if they grab you sling, there will probably be enough slack in it for you to move the weapon into a position where you can shoot them.
Paraclete comes
05-03-10, 02:36
Well I would like to throw my two cents in on this one. I do not use a sling for my home defense shotgun, but find it an absolute must for my work M4. After having to transition to my 1911 on more than one occasion I find it critical to still retain control of my carbine.
I would be curious to know how you "transition" to a handgun in a fight with their instruction. Im sure they are good at what they do so not trying to discredit them but I don't understand that.
All the instruction I have received in the Military and everything I have experienced is that should I have a malfunction or run dry with the enemy closer than say twenty-five yards I transition to the pistol. Its just been quicker from what I have seen. Clearing a malfunction can take life changing seconds, where pulling the pistola is quicker.
just my thoughts
A sling is a weapon retention system. For me I have slings on all my guns even my home defense. I feel that any point in time with home defense you might need to let go of the weapon and grab other things like family members and lived ones. To me it let's you retainthe weapon in that situation and if the need arises to grab it again it s right there. I think the only time you should not have a sling is a 3 gun competition where you have to let go of the rifle rapidly to use the handgun or shotgun.
There are various retention techniques for the carbine or shotgun that result in a transition to handgun where you are firing strong-hand-only. They work about as well as your skillset when shooting strong-hand-only. They are good tools to have in the box for various reasons.
The subject of slings comes up from time to time. I think that many instructors are just looking to be different and make a name for themselves by being different.
Yes, someone can manhandle you (or try) if your carbine is attached to your body by a sling. Why is he that close to begin with?
FWIW, my home use carbine has no sling but only because I figure that if I need a carbine things have gone horribly awry and I need it right****ingnow and a sling is something I'm not going to have time to put on and a dangling sling to me is worse than no sling.
A sling is a weapon retention system. For me I have slings on all my guns even my home defense. I feel that any point in time with home defense you might need to let go of the weapon and grab other things like family members and lived ones. To me it let's you retainthe weapon in that situation and if the need arises to grab it again it s right there. I think the only time you should not have a sling is a 3 gun competition where you have to let go of the rifle rapidly to use the handgun or shotgun.
I agree 100% being a civilian and not having a secondary with my HD setup if I grab my carbine or shotgun I have a single point sling already attached to it so it only takes a fraction of a second while I'm up and moving to throw it on. Again since it's for HD and that means things must have been bad to grab it I want it attached should I slip and fall on kids toys or pump into furniture rushing to secure my family. If i would loose or drop my weapon or have to grab my kids and run I still want the weapon attached. In the civilian world with everything I've seen the odds of every running into to someone with enough training to grab your sling and try to subdue you means that all your practice and training has gone out the window and you let the Bad Guy get close enough to grab you without dropping him. Just my .02
Jay Cunningham
05-03-10, 06:22
Do you think it is realistic that you will have a secondary firearm to transition to?
Do you think it is realistic that you will have a secondary firearm to transition to?
I think you might, it really depends on what you're doing and what you're preparing for.
In an oh-dark-thirty moment as a homeowner? Probably not. As a homeowner that's been without power for 4 days finding myself with a front yard full of undesirables that I'd like to discourage in the strongest possible way? Absolutely yes.
this is why my oh-dark-thirty gun has no sling, but the post-hurricane gun does. :D
John_Wayne777
05-03-10, 06:53
They were very "anti-sling". They said that slings certainly had their uses, but that they were potentially too much trouble. They gave various examples. One of which was how the sling can be used against you by an attacker. (Just like cops wear clip on ties so they don't get choked to death, slings are just big "grab on handles" for bad guys.)
Of all the potential worries in life, the possibility of a dude who has busted into my house strangling me to death with the sling of my rifle has to rank pretty much at the bottom of the list, somewhere between figuring out how to gently break it to Kate Beckinsdale and Heidi Klum that I can only really satisfy one eternal love slave and being turned into a newt.
There's a reason why a lot of very switched on people who used a rifle as a means of self defense regard slings as necessary bits of kit. Granted the average home owner responding to the odd noise at night may not have a lot of immediate use for the sling at that moment, but it's still good to have on the gun. The sling can always be S-folded and rubber-banded to keep it out of the way when not needed and yet readily accessible should the need for it arise.
Jay Cunningham
05-03-10, 06:57
I think you might, it really depends on what you're doing and what you're preparing for.
Agree.
I like the idea of having a sling attached to the carbine, but banded to it. For a bump in the night I think you are going to grab *a* weapon and go. For an event as you describe it is much more realistic to be a bit "jocked up."
I hear weird things from people sometimes, and I now ask them to realistically consider what it is that they are saying.
Pathfinder Ops
05-03-10, 06:59
LET ME SAY FIRST: THE TRAINING BY THE PFC FOLKS WAS TOP SHELF AND VERY PROFESSIONALLY PRESENTED. EXCELLENT TRAINING AND WORTH EVERY PENNY/ MINUTE SPENT.
I was also in the class this Saturday and have to say that the discussion about the slings by the PFC folks caused A LOT of the students some confusion.
I think there are a couple reasons for that. One is that there is such a marketing and internet forum chatter frenzy about them (things like which are good, what type, etc.) that it's almost become a given that a sling is a mandatory basic item for your platform.
I was in the Army many moons ago and all we had was the standard issue black strap that ran front to back and the primary function of that item was to carry that weapon in an administrative posture. Yes some of us used it to help with shooting but the vast majority did not. Hence the idea that PFC suggests is that the only reason slings exist is because they don't make a holster for a rifle.
All that being said I think that there IS some usefulness for slings in certain environments (as PFC also suggested) but those are limited. The problems surrounding slings in PFC's opinion is that they can create more havoc than they solve. For me (and yes I use my carbine professionally) the vast majority of the time the only use my sling gets is when we are all standing around either getting briefed, or after operations but before I put my weapon back in its carrier or when I'm on a range listening to the instructor.
In other words: while in an admin posture.
I have been carrying and using an M16/ AR platform since 1979 and I can not think of a single time when I thought my sling was a mandatory item for my weapon system while in a combative mode. In fact there has been several times when my sling ended up being a pain in the ass.
So yes, you read correctly; I have a sling on my current weapon. I don't perceive it as mandatory, but we spend a lot of time standing around waiting, briefing, listening, and whatever type admin stuff so the damned thing is VERY helpful.
The other thing that should be considered is that when the PFC guys demonstrated the sling being a point where a bad guy can latch onto you, did you notice they did not show you what to do about it?
I found that to be disturbing. If I show/ demonstrate a student how they can fail I have an obligation to give them a tool to fix it. Their solution was to tell you that the way to fix it was to not have a sling in the first place, well by then its too late because the bad guy already has you. The first thing that came to my mind in that demo was to pull my secondary weapon (handgun) and fix the BG. Of course that assumes I have that handgun and it also assumes that the student is training with that mindset.
There are many many what if's in the world and my only real point is that PFC's position to dismiss slings across the board is nothing more than their opinion. It's an informed opinion but an opinion none the less. Some folks will agree with it some will not and the argument will be nothing more than the whole, 9mm vs .45 thing.
I say if you have a sling, want a sling, like a sling for what ever reason; get it. Train with it. And decide whether that sling solves more of your problems or does it complicate your circumstance.
I for one use a sling prolifically and mine does not hinder my ability to transition to my reaction side or any of the other examples given by the PFC trainers and if a BG ever latches onto me by my sling..... I have an answer for that.
And besides, if I didn't have a sling I would have to lean my rifle against something to hold my coffee cup and my donuts......HA!:D
GUYS THAT LAST PART IS A JOKE.:D
RogerinTPA
05-03-10, 08:28
I think PFC's reason to go slingless, is pretty lame if you ask me. As many have said, why is the bad guy so close in the first place, especially if your weapon hasn't malfunctioned and has a full mag? It is very easy (at least for me) to "parry" and block with the weapon and provide numerous chest or face thumps, butt strokes, shoot, or draw your secondary, and or tertiary (Knife) depending on the circumstances, with a sling still attached.
Out of curiosity, do LEO's get "pugil" type training with their long guns?
I'm thinking I need a rail or sling attachment for my HAK sheath. :D
Pathfinder Ops
05-03-10, 08:47
I think PFC's reason to go slingless, is pretty lame if you ask me. As many have said, why is the bad guy so close in the first place, especially if your weapon hasn't malfunctioned and has a full mag? There are many reasons a bad guy could be close to you but that's a "what if" type conversation. The truth is shit happens and sometimes BG's are not always right where you want them or can control them from a distance. That's ideal world crap and dismissing the idea that you will always have a bad guy at a distance that makes physical contact with them unlikely is a dream. It is very easy to "parry" and block with the weapon and provide chest or face thump, butt stoke, shoot, or draw your secondary,or tertiary (Knife) depending on the circumstances. Yeah ok........ I call BS and I bet if I latch onto you whether I have your sling or not I guarantee NOTHING about getting me off you is going to be easy. Especially if you didn't see it coming.
Out of curiosity, do LEO's get "pugil" type training with their long guns? My experience is NO. Not ever not once. never even been talked about not even in a Patrol rifle course.
Additional input is above in Blue text.
Guys the reality is ANYTHING can happen. Especially at night, or in a confined space or when you are caught off guard. The PFC guys made it VERY clear and I agree that the use of "never," or "always" are words that will jump up and bite you in your ass.
The discussion of the slings is no different than the milieu of arguments about any single item of gear. There is no across the spectrum correct answer to right and wrong.
Not all your kit will work for you in all circumstances. All things are trade offs or critical decision commitments.
I use a sling for many reasons. There are many reasons not to. So I make a choice based on my training, experience and environment and roll with it. When it's going south on me I suck it up and make it work.
RogerinTPA
05-03-10, 09:02
Additional input is above in Blue text.
Guys the reality is ANYTHING can happen. Especially at night, or in a confined space or when you are caught off guard. The PFC guys made it VERY clear and I agree that the use of "never," or "always" are words that will jump up and bite you in your ass.
The discussion of the slings is no different than the milieu of arguments about any single item of gear. There is no across the spectrum correct answer to right and wrong.
Not all your kit will work for you in all circumstances. All things are trade offs or critical decision commitments.
I use a sling for many reasons. There are many reasons not to. So I make a choice based on my training, experience and environment and roll with it. When it's going south on me I suck it up and make it work.
Not being dismissive of their thought process, just thought it was lame. I agree with much of what you said, having thought out the various scenarios, before you even wrote it. The old Infantry adage, everything is situationally dependent.
I have no doubt, "if" you could latch on to me that the struggle, wouldn't be easy, but....trust me when I say, you won't be gaining the upper hand at the end of that scenario.;)
SWATcop556
05-03-10, 10:05
For my duties as a LEO I always use a sling except when sighting in from a bench. If I'm shooting the sling is a none issue but the other 99.9999999% of the time it's a huge benefit and for me, mandatory. My home defense rifle also has a sling since that is what I'm familiar with. I'm not laying my rifle down to carry a child or move an injured family member. Since I'll more than likely be in boxers and not carrying a secondary I'm sure as shit not losing my only weapon.
If someone is close enough to you and going to man handle you, they will try and maybe succeed with or without you wearing a sling. To be honest, I think they are a necessity. Why do we need holters for sidearms? For me, in LE, a sling must be used. Not gonna lay my rifle down to go hands on with someone. Not gonna lay my rifle down to help my injured partner or someone else. Not gonna throw my rifle over a fence or wall before I climb over it. Yes a BG can strangle/hurt you with your sling. He can also hurt you when your hands are full of rifle or when you drop your weapon on the deck in a fight. Nothing is perfect.
I know I'm coming from a LE point of view but put yourself in a HD scenario where you may need to do other tasks while armed. That's why we use holsters and slings.
I think from a risk-benefit perspective, and assuming one is competent and comfortable using a slung weapon, I'd look at the probability of a BG strangling you with your sling versus the probability of taking an unslung firearm from you. I do not recall seeing any stats on the former and would assume the probability to be very low compared to latter.
Jay Cunningham
05-03-10, 10:38
Why do we need holters for sidearms?
When you grab your pistol off of your nightstand to respond to a bump-in-the-night, are you wearing a holster?
Thomas M-4
05-03-10, 10:56
[QUOTE]FWIW, my home use carbine has no sling but only because I figure that if I need a carbine things have gone horribly awry and I need it right****ingnow and a sling is something I'm not going to have time to put on and a dangling sling to me is worse than no sling.
Also to take in consideration is the noise it could cause trying to deploy the sling all be it small if you had an intruder that was in the next room or the hall way. Every other possible situation I can think of I would want the sling being used. If did find my self with a scuffle over the rifle I would prefer to be in the sling for the added retention.
Besides it being a 'holster', I see the sling as a way to retain my rifle in case you are knocked on your ass by XYZ. Hit hard by a blunt object, car, bicycle, door, etc. Tripped on your kid's skateboard, marbles, junk, debris, you name it.
An out of control, possibly with injuries, kind of flat on your ass. In those kind of cases I like to have the possibility of having my rifle close to the body as opposed to it being several feet away from me.
With a quick release in case you get hung up and get trapped by your slung rifle.
Unlikely any of these things will happen to me, but shit does happen.
When you grab your pistol off of your nightstand to respond to a bump-in-the-night, are you wearing a holster?
Not always but most of the time. I keep my pants and some slip on shoes next to the bed. My pistol stays in a paddle holster so I can grab it and go. This wasn't my point though...the OP made it seem like the instructors were taking the sling out of the equation in more situations than just HD. If they were speaking of only HD then I can see where they are coming from but I don't agree with it.
While we are on the subject, I think using a holster for HD for bump in the nite type stuff is something to consider at the very least.
Jay Cunningham
05-03-10, 11:37
Context is everything.
;)
I'm thinking I need a rail or sling attachment for my HAK sheath. :D
Or, maybe a Radi-mag type doodad that holds a loaded G26 in lieu of another magazine?:D "My secondary is ON my primary!"
Or, maybe a Radi-mag type doodad that holds a loaded G26 in lieu of another magazine?:D "My secondary is ON my primary!"
great 6 months from now Magpul will have this in production:D
Pathfinder Ops
05-03-10, 15:26
Guys to clarify and support the OP's original statement:
The PFC guys were VERY anti sling. Hands down not a good idea by their training and experience.
However they made it very clear that there are a (very) few times when a sling is of use.
But they were just as quick to point out that the risk to benefit equation that they use suggests that slings are less than desirable in the vast preponderance of time.
Again, I personally do not agree. I like and use a sling for a host of reasons and in theory I'm prepared to deal with those times when a sling isn't a positive.
Guys to clarify and support the OP's original statement:
The PFC guys were VERY anti sling. Hands down not a good idea by their training and experience.
However they made it very clear that there are a (very) few times when a sling is of use.
But they were just as quick to point out that the risk to benefit equation that they use suggests that slings are less than desirable in the vast preponderance of time.
Again, I personally do not agree. I like and use a sling for a host of reasons and in theory I'm prepared to deal with those times when a sling isn't a positive.
Thanks for the added comments.
Yes, the PFC guys were quick to add that "always" and "never" were not good concepts in their eyes. They reminded us that WE needed to train with/without certain pieces of gear and make up our own minds. You cannot ask for more than that.
arizonaranchman
05-03-10, 18:05
IMHO a sling is something you should virtually always have on a longarm, even just a simple Uncle Mike's sling is fine for many applications. You sometimes have to sling it to climb a fence or anything where both hands are necessary to do something. You don't want to have to lay it on the ground or set it down that's for sure. It's the very first piece of addt'l equipment my rifles get.
I CCW frequently so I may indeed have a handgun on when pottering about my property and even when investigating a disturbance, so a transition to a secondary wouldn't be too much of a stretch. If I have reason to go outside the house at night I would certainly take a carbine with a sling so I can open gates, right garbage cans, see to animals without having to put the rifle down. If some disturbance wasn't the usual animal or strong wind but an evil doer then I am not too worried if they try to grab my rifle or sling, as I would have generally shot them several times before that.
The specialized 2 pt and 1 pt slings of today are not the old admin carry straps, so I prefer to have a sling on a rifle although when in the safe I typically bungee the sling to the forearm so it is out of the way, but available.
This is a VCAS sling simply bungeed to the forearm a quick tug and the sling is available but when bungeed is out of the way and doesn't interfere with operation.
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac61/gstuffnow/Temp/DSCF6176.jpg
Cameron
No sling & rifle jams => drop rifle on ground and draw handgun => shooting stops temporarily => bend over to pick up rifle and get shot in the ass cheek.
OK, that was mostly tongue in cheek, but I am sure you get my drift.
Originally Posted by mattjmcd
Or, maybe a Radi-mag type doodad that holds a loaded G26 in lieu of another magazine? "My secondary is ON my primary!"
Would that be considered an SBR due to the presence of a buttstock?
...And besides, if I didn't have a sling I would have to lean my rifle against something to hold my coffee cup and my donuts......HA!:D...You could use the rifle barrel to stir your coffee. That way it's still in your hands in case the badguys are waiting for you to set down your rifle to transition to the usual pen for coffee stirring. Also, the front sight will keep the donuts from contacting the hand-guards when slipping them over the muzzle device to keep them "at the ready":D
I may have different needs than some but I need a sling because,
- I often find myself climbing walls with my rifle.
- I often find myself climbing fences with my rifle.
- I often find myself climbing ladders with my rifle.
- At times I find myself rappelling with a long gun.
- At times I find myself with a slung M4 on my back when I am carrying my bolt gun, or vise versa.
- At times I find myself riding in / on a helo, sometimes on the skids sometimes hanging outside doing overwatch. Helo's have an allergic reaction to large pieces of metals.
- I find that if I needed to transition to my rifle, after the immediate contact when my world is safe, I may need to reload both my primary and my secondary, and I don't want to stick my rifles muzzle into the dirt, lean on it like a tripod while I reload my pistol.
- If someone is attempting to take my rifle or choke me with my sling, I am in a deadly use of force situation and I may need to transition to my pistol. I like the added security for weapon retention with a sling as I release one hand from the rifle to go to my pistol.
- Even though I do practice one handed rifle retention when transitioning to my pistol, I find at times that I may need to set myself up better to actually get two hands on my pistol. This makes me more effective with it. With a sling I can just as easily transition to my pistol using two hands while still be able to maintain acceptable control over the long gun.
- I don't want to get my world rocked and have my rifle go flying into the unknown.
- I often have my rifle with me for many many hours at a time and I don't like holding it the entire time.
- I don't like to put my rifle down when I have to piss.
- Instant improvised tourniquet.
- I like having the option of cinching down my sling in certain improvised shooting positions at varying distances.
I used to run a piece of strap attached to the stock and attachment buckles on both shoulders of my kit, with an improvised weapons catch. I would run the rifle unbuckled for many things, but I found that with modern 2 point designs and their adjustability in length of pull with quick disconnects, running a sling in this old school manner or running without a sling was no longer as good of an option.
And as mentioned, putting the rifle down while eating pastries and having some Joe just doesn't look as cool as having the rifle slung over your back muzzle down. ;)
I am sure there is more, but I gotta drop a deuce right now. I usually put my rifle down for this one. :D
Damn it...I was hoping it would not come to this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jgz5rlTInaQ&feature=related
At around 2:30 it is explained why you don't use a sling. :rolleyes:
For more action see the original video; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kckLMufuObQ&feature=related :D
This should help Surf's deuce come out.
For me, and my needs, a sling is mandatory equipment.
I wont carry a rifle without a sling just as I wont wear a pistol without a holster.
Pathfinder Ops
05-04-10, 09:37
You could use the rifle barrel to stir your coffee. That way it's still in your hands in case the badguys are waiting for you to set down your rifle to transition to the usual pen for coffee stirring. Also, the front sight will keep the donuts from contacting the hand-guards when slipping them over the muzzle device to keep them "at the ready":D
Hmmm seems like you might have some practical experience with this....lol;)
PrivateCitizen
05-04-10, 12:22
I have a sling for all rifles.
All rifles are NOT primarily slung.
NO sling seems an irresponsible platitude. When to ditch a sling or not run one is, certainly, a worthwhile discussion.
I'd generally counter by saying that in most circumstances the quick release ability of a good sling gives you they ability to lose it if needed.
On the "no sling" matter one scenario that comes to mind …
If I am actively shooting/moving and require a transition because I am simply dry and need immediate presentation without the luxury to perform a reload, that last thing I want to do is caber toss my carbine so I can go pick it up later … back who knows where and how far … is it safe to go get it …
Look, now I have 3 full M4 mags and no carbine … go team …
I dunno …
For "bump in the night" I start un-slung for 'go go go,' but I can add a 2pt/1pt strap and hook it up if needed/warranted/time permitting.
In the end, whatever works for you …
When you don't need one, it's an annoyance. When you do need one, you really do need one.
It really does depend what on what you're doing. When I toted around an M16 as a low speed private, I took the USGI sling off every chance I got. I didn't have any other weapons, no other responsibilities, and all it did was get caught up on things. Different place, different job, working out of a vehicle with a pistol and long arm, with other stuff to do, the lack of a sling was an immediate problem.
I don't expect to be a private with nothing to do but dodder around again, so slings it is.
RogerinTPA
05-04-10, 15:24
When you grab your pistol off of your nightstand to respond to a bump-in-the-night, are you wearing a holster?
Negative...intruders get the "Full Monty".:D
Slings are a must on defensive long guns. That doesn't mean you must use them. Scenario dictates the tactics. Have at least a carry strap, though, so you have options.
I agree with others that if the suspect is close enough to make my sling a liability, I'm likely in a deadly force situation.
a sling properly set up is a must. 2 combat tours under my belt and you couldn't convince me otherwise. "back in the day" when I was a boot (mid 80's) the anti sling idea was common- that because no one had tac slings yet- it was old school over the shoulder- the thinking of the day was your rifle was not at ready if slung in the traditional manner. Also some ofthe older DI's were nam era guys and felt slings hung up in the jungle- not the environs were in at present
wholesalestunna
05-05-10, 17:00
As a LEO, a sling is a must for me... If you do have to go hands on with someone how are you going to retain the firearm if you don't have a sling? It's also a must for transitioning to a secondary weapon unless you're going to just drop the rifle/shotgun.
Hmmm seems like you might have some practical experience with this....lol;)Well, I didn't want to brag or anything, but yes. I once did a ride-along with the Houston Metro PD and I did post on the internet last night :cool:
I was at the class with the Veracity and Pathfinder and I found the sling thing to be just they way they prefered to teach. BUt everytime they brought it up they also prefaced it with basically"This is what our opinion is but you can ignore it if you want."
Not worth getting worked up about. Also I think the premise they are working off is that they will have their secondary and if the rifle goes dry or has a malfuntion it's just a big club that is in the way at that point. Drop it and engage with your secondary.
This may or may not have caused physical sickness with some of the more gear queerish folks there who were somewhat adverse to the idea of dropping their rifle in the dirt.
Did I enjoy the class? Yup. Do I still plan on have a sling on my rifle? Probably. Did I learn a whole bunch of stuff specifically during the malfunction junction drill? Hell yes.
the_fallguy
05-06-10, 04:50
I would personally rather have a sling than not. Besides the other benefits to using a good sling system, the weapon retention aspect is a big benefit in my opinion. I view an attacker grabbing a slung carbine like an attacker grabbing or man-handling you; while it isn't the ideal situation, if their hands are occupied with grabbing you or the slung carbine, they aren't hitting you or beating on you with it (which also makes a combative response more likely to succeed). Besides that, if you effectively deal with an attack well enough to create some space, you are still in possession of your slung carbine (assuming it is still operational, or that you can make so).
Of course, all that is relative to one possible scenario, so who knows? Depending on your needs, a sling might not be practical at all. The nice thing about having one, though, is that it is there if you need it, but you don't have to use it if you don't want to.
Pathfinder Ops
05-06-10, 09:53
Well, I didn't want to brag or anything, but yes. I once did a ride-along with the Houston Metro PD and I did post on the internet last night :cool:
LOL.....nice!:p
Pathfinder Ops
05-06-10, 09:56
I was at the class with the Veracity and Pathfinder and I found the sling thing to be just they way they prefered to teach. BUt everytime they brought it up they also prefaced it with basically"This is what our opinion is but you can ignore it if you want."
Not worth getting worked up about. Also I think the premise they are working off is that they will have their secondary and if the rifle goes dry or has a malfuntion it's just a big club that is in the way at that point. Drop it and engage with your secondary.
This may or may not have caused physical sickness with some of the more gear queerish folks there who were somewhat adverse to the idea of dropping their rifle in the dirt.
Did I enjoy the class? Yup. Do I still plan on have a sling on my rifle? Probably. Did I learn a whole bunch of stuff specifically during the malfunction junction drill? Hell yes.
Yup....
And they were clear at the end of class to state that we shouldn't beleive anything they told that day. rather to take their ideas and go out and try it for our selves and make our own judgments. Which I am very much in agreement with.
Just cuz something works or doesn't for me doesn't mean that's the only way. And they were quick to say that.
I for one find my sling useful in many ways.
Without reading the entire thread...
If a bad guy was close enough to you to grab your slung rifle, wouldn't you WANT it slung? Retention is important. I would much rather have a brief tussle with a BG than be shot by my own damned rifle. Without a sling, BG grabs it and it's out of my control, and in the control of the very last person I wanted to have it.
They were very "anti-sling". They said that slings certainly had their uses, but that they were potentially too much trouble. They gave various examples. One of which was how the sling can be used against you by an attacker. (Just like cops wear clip on ties so they don't get choked to death, slings are just big "grab on handles" for bad guys.)
If a bad guy gets close enough to me to grab my sling, the powder burns he gets will be the least of his troubles.
Not worth getting worked up about. Also I think the premise they are working off is that they will have their secondary and if the rifle goes dry or has a malfuntion it's just a big club that is in the way at that point. Drop it and engage with your secondary. I am not too wrapped up on this topic as I am sure most here see it for what it is, none the less I am a bit curious, if they mentioned anything about having a malfunction with your rifle, dropping it in the dirt, engaging with your pistol all the while hauling ass looking to get behind some type of cover perhaps while engaging the threat?
What happens to that rifle once you haul ass and it is still sitting in the dirt where you left it? Now your behind cover and you may have had the ability to get your long gun up and running again, but you can't because it is sitting in the dirt somewhere. Or worse the bad guy gets to your rifle, fixes it and shoots at you with it. Or maybe another scumbag gets it.
To think that we aren't going to be hauling ass when transitioning is not wise. To think that we can just dump our long gun leaving it behind while we haul ass is less of a great idea IMO.
Yup....
And they were clear at the end of class to state that we shouldn't beleive anything they told that day. rather to take their ideas and go out and try it for our selves and make our own judgments. Which I am very much in agreement with.
Just cuz something works or doesn't for me doesn't mean that's the only way. And they were quick to say that.
I for one find my sling useful in many ways.Many good schools / instructors will make a similar point about trying things out for yourself, giving a new technique etc a fair evaluation in an attempt to find out what does and does not work for your situation / needs and that is a good thing. While it may have its niche, I don't think you will get a lot of people buying into this no sling concept in the long run. Sure it may seem that way during a class when people are wrapped up in the heat of the training course, but when they get some time and distance from the class they will evaluate the goods and bads and I am pretty sure, like yourself, most will understand the needs for a sling. ;)
I somewhat have to agree with what Rob said earlier, that some schools pick certain things that give them some type of "calling card" so to speak. Not all necessarily good either. That does not mean that they do not have quality training to offer.
Fr0ntal0b0t0my
05-07-10, 08:02
[QUOTE=John_Wayne777;644260]Of all the potential worries in life, the possibility of a dude who has busted into my house strangling me to death with the sling of my rifle has to rank pretty much at the bottom of the list, somewhere between figuring out how to gently break it to Kate Beckinsdale and Heidi Klum that I can only really satisfy one eternal love slave and being turned into a newt.
Excellent post Sir!
I was at the class with the Veracity and Pathfinder and I found the sling thing to be just they way they prefered to teach. BUt everytime they brought it up they also prefaced it with basically"This is what our opinion is but you can ignore it if you want."
Not worth getting worked up about. Also I think the premise they are working off is that they will have their secondary and if the rifle goes dry or has a malfuntion it's just a big club that is in the way at that point. Drop it and engage with your secondary.
This may or may not have caused physical sickness with some of the more gear queerish folks there who were somewhat adverse to the idea of dropping their rifle in the dirt.
Did I enjoy the class? Yup. Do I still plan on have a sling on my rifle? Probably. Did I learn a whole bunch of stuff specifically during the malfunction junction drill? Hell yes.
Thanks for jumping in to the thread.
Great class.
For work, a sling is a must for me. At home, no sling. Just something else to snag.
If a bad guy was close enough to you to grab your slung rifle, wouldn't you WANT it slung?
What if he's really BAD?
There's a school of thought from a (not all) two point house that believes if you are carrying a secondary weapon system the procedure is different. Say a bad guy (who is much bigger and badder than you) gets the drop on you and grabs your muzzle. He has your ass and you cannot bring the primary to bear on the threat because bad guy was quick/smart enough to direct your muzzle away from him as he reeled you in.
Scenario: Steps out from a corner as you are clearing and gains control of the muzzle and begins to close while bringing you in to him wielding an edged weapon to ruin your evening. I'll come back to the secondary in a moment...
While up and on your feet, the primary is effectively out of the fight for you at this point and if this dude is really big, many of the retention jerk around games will not work.
They advocate "bowing" to the threat from the waist and tossing the two point sling over your head(often snagging kit on your head, but let them have all of it) as you draw and engage with your sidearm. Putting fire on the threat from your secondary will happen faster than your 'gifted' primary can be turned around and used on you.
Now this is a pretty scary scenario and I'd explore more viable options such as dropping back and away and engaging with the primary as it straightens out on the threat from supine without relinquishing control of it.
I have seen this drill however in some schools that advocate the two point.
I run single point slings on all my stand-up fighting guns so this little trade isn't an option for me.
All of my M4's have an ASAP plate so my MS2 slings will interface with them but they sit in the safe or under my bed slick (no sling attached). My bugout rig (Eagle SKD Chest Rig) has an extra sling stashed in the velcro sandwich pocket that I can hook up to later if I'm grabbing a rifle and the light fighting load and going out the door.
I think that many instructors are just looking to be different and make a name for themselves by being different.
Yes, someone can manhandle you (or try) if your carbine is attached to your body by a sling. Why is he that close to begin with?
I agree. I like slings on my long guns. To me it's just like having a holster to carry a pistol.
Slinger646
05-09-10, 10:16
Everything I have has slings with the exception of the HD Shotty.
In law enforcement a sling is a necessity. If you have to hands-on with a suspect, you need to be able to get the long gun out of the way without laying a weapon on the deck unsecured. By the book, the guy with long gun is always the "cover officer" but in the real world, you may be the only one able to perform the necessary functions. This happened to me once, carrying my 870, backing up a K-9 officer on a track. When we found the bad guy, hiding in a bush inside of a muddy swamp, I was the only officer who could secure and search the suspect; the K-9 officer has to control the K-9. So I slid my 870 behind me, dragged the guy out and cuffed him. I don't think I would have liked to drop my 870 in 4 inches of muddy water! This could also have happened on a busy city street with dozens of people around, again another place I wouldn't want my long gun unsecured on the deck as I dealt with a suspect.
Besides, as many have pointed out the sling serves many other functions. And while my beside pistol lacks a holster, I also go to work armed, and you can be damn sure my Sig sits in a holster and my patrol rifle has a sling!
And no, we don't teach any bludgeoning techniques with either the rifle or the shotgun, just as we don't teach any pistol-whipping techniques with the pistol.
I was in last week's 3-day PFC carbine course held in Connecticut and there were more than a few of us who were initially resistant to the "no sling" philosophy that PFC described. Afterall, your sling is an integral part of your kit, right?
The operational arm of their PFC does not use slings, so it's not like they are dreaming this up as instructors with no real world application. I have run my M4 with several different slings, including the Magpul MS2 and the Vickers 2-point. At no point did the PFC instructors force anyone to take their sling off and there were several guys who ran with them. By the end of Day 2, it was pretty conclusive that we were all manipulating our rifles a hell of a lot better without the slings, and that we were doing transfers and transitions tons faster than even the fastest guy operating with a sling.
To avoid any confusion from the above posts, PFC didn't advocate "dropping your rifle on the ground" as part of the SOP for a transition, instead, retaining it in your support side hand dropped to pocket height where it's under your control, but out of your working space.
PFC's take on slings was that they serve a purpose SOMETIMES, but being hooked up to your rifle via sling all of the time without a specific reason is a paradigm worth questioning. Like leaving your holster connected to your pistol. The example Ray gave was that the last time he slung up was almost a year ago when he was getting on a helicopter. Same would go for climbing, etc. Granted, there are agencies and units that require guys to be slung up 100% of the time, so for those folks, it's near impossible to give it a go. For a civilian shooter I can't see a reason why not to at least try it.
In our course, there was no talk about "getting strangled with your own sling" just that it's an accessory that you might find gets in your way and limits your options for weapon manipulation and use.
Finally, and I don't think this is something that PFC said, but it's interesting to note that a number of the instructors who suggest/demand the use of a sling also have their company's logo on that sling. PFC has no such motivation.
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