View Full Version : How does the P30's LEM trigger compare to striker fired triggers?
Lucky Strike
05-03-10, 21:49
I've got an XD9 which I love but have been thinking of getting another 9mm and have been looking at the P30. I definitely don't want DA/SA and if I get a P30 it'll be with the LEM trigger since from what I read it seems to mimic the feel of triggers on striker fired guns . I'm still not too sure how it works though and am just looking for opinions on people that have shot the P30 and striker fired guns and the differences in feel between the two.
I'm not a big fan of a long trigger reset which stock XD's have (I sent mine to springer precision to fix this) and I've read that the LEM has this too...is there a generally accepted way to shorten the reset or is this just something that you can't get away from due to the design?
The main reason why I still don't own a P30 is because I'm not a fan of the LEM trigger. I've been shooting Glocks for so long, that the reset on the LEM just feels ridiculously long - not Sig DAK long, mind you, but entirely too long for my tastes.
The reset on the SA mode of the traditional DA/SA is much better, but then you have to put up with the HK's atrocious DA trigger pull - something I'd rather not have to deal with, myself.
Full disclosure - I have VERY limited experience shooting the P30 - a couple of magazines each through an LEM and a DA/SA. Most of my recent HK experience was with a USP 45c, which, though it had an AWFUL DA trigger, was still a tack driving machine!
Regards,
Kevin
You'll probably feel like you get a better feeling break with a LEM than with most (not all) striker-fired guns, but sadly, H&K's aren't exactly known far and wide for having great triggers so I'm not talking about too much here.
As for reset, the P30's LEM isn't the best, it's kinda long and it's vague, it might beat your XD but it's actually close to that and quite similar...
IMO if you're looking for a better trigger the P30 will be a short-term experiment, try to ignore the hype as most guys who pay the H&K tax tend to ignore their flaws in exchange for bragging rights for being a "real operator" in the H&K club.
I know it sounds crazy, and you don't hear about 'em when talking trigger quality, but IMO the Glock is still the best platform if you want every pull to be the same in a DAO-ish configuration, even in the trigger-feel department. Glock's let you play around with different connector and spring combinations to find something that works for you without going broke trying more than a few combos out on your search for what you're after...
For instance, some guys dig the NY spring with a 3.5lb connector, or some like using Federal primers and going to a reduced power striker spring... in general the 3.5lb connectors are a longer mushy pull and slightly longer reset at the expense of the lighter weight, whereas the stock 5.0lb one has a shorter pull and reset... a heavier 6lb trigger spring can remove slop and lighten them up when used in tandem.
I was looking for something with less pull weight than stock but free of the longer mush and it lead me to my current recipe: a seldom seen Ghost "Ranger" 4.5lb connector with a stronger Wolff 6lb trigger spring yielding a short 4.5lb trigger with a nice reset... For low money you can make up your own recipe... YMMV and JMHO as I've lots of trigger time with these guns and really gave the P30 more of a try than it really deserved in hindsight.
Lucky Strike
05-03-10, 22:45
The springer precision tuned trigger on my XD is REALLY nice....not tuned 1911 nice of course but the best trigger I've felt on any striker fired gun.
That being said there are some aspects of the P30 that are making me want one to pair with my XD (and maybe replace it as my CCW if it works for me) that could outweigh the trigger differences.
The first is the ergos which the general consensus is that they're top notch. My XD fits my hands alright but I'm all for an even better fit and the P30 seems like it'd definitely do that. Second is that it looks to be slimmer and since it'd be potentially for CCW slimmer is obviously better. Lastly I suffer from short thumb syndrome and the mag release on my XD can be tough to hit consistently when doing quick reloads. I'm intrigued by the lever mag release system (i've never shot a gun that had one) and it seems like it could be the solution to my problem.
I did see a post that said that the V4 has the shortest reset (well...time to reset would be more accurate, due to the springs) so that'd probably be the version I get if I buy one.
...is there a generally accepted way to shorten the reset or is this just something that you can't get away from due to the design?
I emailed Bruce Gray http://grayguns.com/ with the same question, and he replied it can be shortened. This, without doubt, would cost good money and require some wait times, and I don't know how much shorter the reset is going to be.
...there are some aspects of the P30 that are making me want one to pair with my XD (and maybe replace it as my CCW if it works for me) that could outweigh the trigger differences.
The first is the ergos which the general consensus is that they're top notch.
I found out the hard way that while the P30 probably does have the best feeling grip available, their slides also come really far down the side of the gun and if you've got a "thumbs forward-style" grip there isn't much real estate for your support hand thumb... after some time I found that the great strong-hand grip feel didn't make up for their poor support hand ergos which almost have you putting your support-hand's thumb on the rail... YMMV, but next time you pick one up check it out for yourself and it might surprise you.
John_Wayne777
05-05-10, 08:12
Once you learn the reset it's perfectly useable. It took me a while to get the reset down. I was going by movement rather than waiting for the click, which resulted in multiple occasions where I short-stroked the reset. The hammer moved but it would not fall, resulting in me staring at the gun like some sort of special ed kid.
Once I learned the reset it was no big deal. I used Todd's P30 test gun for an entire day during the SOM class and had no problems with it. There are no false clicks in the LEM's reset that I remember.
Once you learn the reset it's perfectly useable. It took me a while to get the reset down. I was going by movement rather than waiting for the click, which resulted in multiple occasions where I short-stroked the reset. The hammer moved but it would not fall, resulting in me staring at the gun like some sort of special ed kid.
Once I learned the reset it was no big deal. I used Todd's P30 test gun for an entire day during the SOM class and had no problems with it. There are no false clicks in the LEM's reset that I remember.
I'm guessing that you're a striker-fired kinda guy, so you probably don't like the DA/SA HKs. However, would you consider the DA/SA setup to be faster overall than the LEM?
John_Wayne777
05-05-10, 09:07
I'm actually an agnostic when it comes to fire control systems on handguns. I like a consistent trigger from shot to shot, but that's about as far as that goes. From a daily use perspective I actually prefer a hammer fired gun because with your thumb on the hammer it is almost impossible to shoot yourself with one when reholstering.
As far as DA/SA being faster...I'd be the wrong guy to ask. I know that Todd was able to get some pretty incredible speed with the LEM system and I doubt that anyone at a lower skill level would find themselves unacceptably hindered by having the LEM over the DA/SA or vice versa. With proper trigger control and the ability to properly manipulate the trigger at speed I doubt you'd find either system to be a significant limitation on speed.
Lucky Strike
05-05-10, 20:23
Well this sucks....only a couple shops in my area have one and the ones that do only have the DA/SA V3 version. I'm going to go check one out tomorrow just to see how the gun feels in my hand, see if I like the lever mag release, and if the slide stop will be an issue with my grip. However I won't be able to dry fire the LEM trigger.....looks like if I get an LEM version it's going to have to be on faith without trying it first.
Do any of the other HK guns have the LEM trigger and if so are they pretty universal feeling across the various guns...i might be able to pull the trigger on a USP or something and just imagine it on a P30.
Do you guys know of a good gunshop(online or otherwise) that would stock more then the DA/SA P30's?
I recently switched from a P30 V3 (DA/SA) to a V4 (LEM) and there is no going back. In terms of speed, I picked up right where I left off from the DA/SA and my first shot accuracy is much better with the LEM trigger.
I got my P30 LEM from Top Gun Supply. Bud's also had them in stock last time I checked.
The P30 is the best feeling pistol out there. Unfortuneately, it has one of the worst feeling triggers on the market. Can you get used to it? Absolutely. But, why spend that kind of money to get used to a trigger? It is never going to be as good as your Springer trigger or even a Glock factory trigger. Unless it is an issue pistol, I say pass.
aaah when is HK going to bring back the p7 with a poly frame and a 13 round mag? :D
gtmtnbiker98
05-06-10, 06:44
Well this sucks....only a couple shops in my area have one and the ones that do only have the DA/SA V3 version. I'm going to go check one out tomorrow just to see how the gun feels in my hand, see if I like the lever mag release, and if the slide stop will be an issue with my grip. However I won't be able to dry fire the LEM trigger.....looks like if I get an LEM version it's going to have to be on faith without trying it first.
Do any of the other HK guns have the LEM trigger and if so are they pretty universal feeling across the various guns...i might be able to pull the trigger on a USP or something and just imagine it on a P30.
Do you guys know of a good gunshop(online or otherwise) that would stock more then the DA/SA P30's?IMO, no, the LEM triggers are not universal "feeling" across the board. The USP LEM has a shorter reset than the P2000/P30 LEM and the HK45 LEM reset is also shorter than the P2000/LEM. With that said, if you want an approximate "feel" for the LEM, then by all means, try out the USP. It will give you a gauge to whether or not you like the LEM system.
If you dry fire an LEM pistol, once dry fired, do not forget to rack the slide to reset the spring tension. If you don't, your second shot will be extremely heavy as in like 16# heavy.
I personally like the LEM and own a P2000 V2 .40. Love the trigger, but the rest of my HKs are various V1s and V3s. I am a DA/SA type, but my future HK purchases will be the LEM.
The P30 is the best feeling pistol out there. Unfortuneately, it has one of the worst feeling triggers on the market. Can you get used to it? Absolutely. But, why spend that kind of money to get used to a trigger? It is never going to be as good as your Springer trigger or even a Glock factory trigger. Unless it is an issue pistol, I say pass.
the lem trigger is misunderstood by a lot of people. some cannot get used to it but most have found it to be a great concept, especially when you become familiar with it. i have a usp and p30 equipped with the lem and when i explain to people how to shoot it and let them try it they have an a-ha moment and really like it. i feel the lem trigger is better than any other striker fired pistol, the only drawback on the p30 is that the reset is longer than the usp/hk45 lem. nothing resets as short as my steyr, however.
Lucky Strike
05-06-10, 13:58
I've already decided that if the ergo's work for me when i handle the SA/DA model that a local store has I'll probably buy an LEM one and get on the waiting list to have Grey's Guns do their reset reduction action job. It isn't cheap but I sold some guns that I never shoot anymore recently to fund this project so I might as well get things set up how I want them.
Anyone here had Grey's do work on their HK LEM trigger?
John_Wayne777
05-06-10, 14:51
Lucky, I'll give you my best advice when it comes to customizing a non-1911 handgun:
Put a couple of thousand rounds through it first before worrying about customization. There are a lot of good guys out there who can do a lot with handguns, but you may find that it's completely unnecessary if you just shoot the gun. If after a couple of thousand rounds downrange you find that you're not meeting objective shooting standards you'd like to meet, then consider sending it off.
Lucky Strike
05-06-10, 15:01
good advice....Grey's lets you make a "reservation" for when you send you gun in and doesn't charge until you actually ship the gun...i think their current soonest spot is like 3 months or something away. So i'll make a reservation as soon as I buy the gun and then have a couple months to shoot it and see if I like it as is. If it's fine I can cancel the reservation, if not I'll send it in.
If I can only find a Variant 2 (7.3lb LEM) in stock, which is currently the case, can I switch it to a V4 (6.2lb LEM) via a simple spring swap or is there more involved?
John_Wayne777
05-06-10, 15:26
The spring swap isn't really what I would refer to as "simple" given ToddG's description of the trials and tribulations of replacing the trigger return spring...but it's doable.
To convert to V4 all you need is the light firing pin block spring which is part# 209296. I takes about 3 minutes to swap out.
Along the lines of what JW_777 was saying, I'd be worried more about buying enough ammo to keep my new gun fed rather than getting a trigger job, especially considering you haven't even fired the pistol/trigger in question.
Lucky Strike
05-07-10, 14:06
I reload 9mm and have stockpiles of components so keeping it fed shouldn't be an issue.
Handled the DA/SA P30 yesterday and it did feel incredibly good in my hand....slide stop didn't appear to interfere with my grip, although with recoil who knows i guess....mag release was cool, it'll definitely some good practice to make hitting it second nature since I've never used a lever before.
They did have a P2000 with the LEM trigger and it felt perfectly fine to me, I don't know what the Variant was...reset was long but not to where it'd be a huge issue. If the P30's trigger is like the P2000's then I might be good to go.
IMO if you're looking for a better trigger the P30 will be a short-term experiment, try to ignore the hype as most guys who pay the H&K tax tend to ignore their flaws in exchange for bragging rights for being a "real operator" in the H&K club.
t.
That is a truly foolish thing to say. Especially on this forum.
John_Wayne777
05-10-10, 07:44
I'm inclined to agree. I missed that nugget earlier.
Believe it or not, some people like H&K handguns because they are well made and tend to work.
...imagine that.
My .02 cents on LEM and DAK as well. Nothing wrong with either trigger but if you use them I think it would be best that it is the only trigger you use because they are different from everything else. You can come up to speed and fire them quickly and accurately with a little practice. I like a short reset as much as anyone else but it can be a crutch. Trigger smoothness and minimal stacking are of much more importance for accuracy than a short reset. In some ways the LEM trigger and others like it are good for teaching a smooth trigger stroke. Plenty of people use a short reset trigger and jerk it.
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