View Full Version : How do you handle FTF firearms sales?
Any suggestions for how to handle these types of transactions? I've only done this twice as a seller. Legally in my state there is no paper work required for an in-state private sale, but I've asked that buyer has valid drivers licence, a valid permit ('License to Carry Handgun' in Indiana), and to provide me with a photo copy of both. Just CYA I guess, but I'm selling a AK and was wondering if anyone else has a self imposed policy.
EDIT: Apologies if this is covered somewhere, but a search on variations of 'advice FTF sale' didn't turn up much
Quiet-Matt
05-05-10, 19:19
With the few FTF transactions I have sold, I come with 2 copies stating both of our names, date, buyers address, SSN and DOB, serial number and manufacture info of firearm, and description of transaction. We sign both copies and each keep one. I keep them in the safe for whatever reason might come up in the future. Overkill, maybe, just covering my tail.
If I'm buying, I'm happy to flash my VA driver's license and my VA CHP in order to give the guy cause to believe I'm not a prohibited buyer due to being a non-resident or a felon. I have no interest in doing the "bill of sale" thing that some are into; I don't care to provide a stranger with my name, address, etc.
If I'm selling, I want to glance at his VA driver's license to get a warm fuzzy that he's not a prohibited buyer due to being a non-resident. If he has a VA CHP, alll the better. Again, I have no interest in doing the "bill of sale" thing that some are into; I don't care to log a stranger's name, address, etc.
If I get a squirrely feeling about the guy, I'll walk away from the deal. I won't begrudge the other guy from exercising that option as well.
Belmont31R
05-05-10, 19:32
Paperwork is a deal breaker for me. Have no issue with showing my CHL or DL but not going to do some generic proof of sale or anything.
Federal law only requires you do not know the person you are selling to is a prohibited person. There is no burden of proof IE you dont have to prove they are a prohibited person you just cant know for some reason.
If people want to do all kinds of generic paperwork might as well take it to an FFL, and do a proper BG check.
Whootsinator
05-05-10, 19:32
Step 1: Give or Receive Cash
Step 2: Give or Receive Firearm
Step 3: Walk or Drive Away
I don't complicate things. My process is completely legal.
Step 1: Give or Receive Cash
Step 2: Give or Receive Firearm
Step 3: Walk or Drive Away
I don't complicate things. My process is completely legal.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is HOW you do it.....
;)
Business_Casual
05-05-10, 20:18
Paperwork is a deal breaker for me. Have no issue with showing my CHL or DL but not going to do some generic proof of sale or anything.
Federal law only requires you do not know the person you are selling to is a prohibited person. There is no burden of proof IE you dont have to prove they are a prohibited person you just cant know for some reason.
If people want to do all kinds of generic paperwork might as well take it to an FFL, and do a proper BG check.
I agree.
I'd also love to know what credentials the "paperwork" types think they can validate? I'd love to know what "protection" you get by photo-copying someone's DL or CHL?
There is a reason it is called a private sale, people.
B_C
Quiet-Matt
05-06-10, 04:22
I only do the "paerwork" thing with firearms that are registered in my name. It serves no purpose other than to put me at ease. If you don't want to let me know who you are, I'm not giving you a firearm registered in my name, thats all. If it was not registered to me, no big deal.
Business_Casual
05-06-10, 06:13
Since when do we have gun registration in Georgia, let alone the United States?
B_C
John_Wayne777
05-06-10, 07:04
Generally I only sell FTF to somebody I know.
If I'm buying, I'm happy to flash my VA driver's license and my VA CHP in order to give the guy cause to believe I'm not a prohibited buyer due to being a non-resident or a felon. I have no interest in doing the "bill of sale" thing that some are into; I don't care to provide a stranger with my name, address, etc.
If I'm selling, I want to glance at his VA driver's license to get a warm fuzzy that he's not a prohibited buyer due to being a non-resident. If he has a VA CHP, alll the better. Again, I have no interest in doing the "bill of sale" thing that some are into; I don't care to log a stranger's name, address, etc.
If I get a squirrely feeling about the guy, I'll walk away from the deal. I won't begrudge the other guy from exercising that option as well.
This pretty much sums up my procedures.
If I'm buying, I'm happy to flash my VA driver's license and my VA CHP in order to give the guy cause to believe I'm not a prohibited buyer due to being a non-resident or a felon. I have no interest in doing the "bill of sale" thing that some are into; I don't care to provide a stranger with my name, address, etc.
You do realize that your DL and CHP have your name, address, DOB, and other information ... right? And that if I look at that I can easily remember it for 3 minutes and write it own when I get back to my car, right?
I have a form that I use. It doesn't record "address" but just name and city/county of residence of purchaser and seller, the make/model/serial number, and date of the sale. I throw it in a file so I can remember when and to whom I sold it in the unlikely event the gun gets traced to me after having been used in a crime. I'll jot down what they showed me (" Current VA driver's license") to prove residence and that's it.
I'm not concerned about "background checks" or authenticating the ID, but I am concerned about creating some good faith basis that I'm not breaking federal law by selling to somebody from out of state.
I also tell people right up front, sometimes in the ad itself, that this is required by me as the seller. If they won't agree then we don't do the deal.
Quiet-Matt
05-06-10, 07:42
Since when do we have gun registration in Georgia, let alone the United States?
B_C
Its not gun registration proper, but when I do a transaction through a FFL the SN make and model of the firearm are recorded along with my info, correct? This = paper trail, I'm simply creating my own to show that the gun legally left my posession. I don.t do this if I know the person, and I have only done this twice with strangers. Neither of them had any problem with it. I simply take every opportunity to cover my ass in every situation. It's not necessary, but its something I have done, and I'll do it again if the person strikes me as a half wit.
Alpha Sierra
05-06-10, 07:48
If I'm buying, I'm happy to flash my VA driver's license and my VA CHP in order to give the guy cause to believe I'm not a prohibited buyer due to being a non-resident or a felon. I have no interest in doing the "bill of sale" thing that some are into; I don't care to provide a stranger with my name, address, etc.
If I'm selling, I want to glance at his VA driver's license to get a warm fuzzy that he's not a prohibited buyer due to being a non-resident. If he has a VA CHP, alll the better. Again, I have no interest in doing the "bill of sale" thing that some are into; I don't care to log a stranger's name, address, etc.
If I get a squirrely feeling about the guy, I'll walk away from the deal. I won't begrudge the other guy from exercising that option as well.
What he said. Visual evidence of in-state residence. No paperwork trail.
Its not gun registration proper, but when I do a transaction through a FFL the SN make and model of the firearm are recorded along with my info, correct? This = paper trail,
Correct. No "registration" per se, but a paper trail exists from the manufacturer to the distributor to the dealer, and then the person who buys it from the dealer leaves their Form 4473 behind. That's where the trail starts if a gun gets traced.
I don't really care where in the "chain" I am - the guy (or the 5 guys) before me may remember or may have documented who they sold it to, and I'm going to make sure I have something to refresh my memory of my "link" in the chain and when it was created. This isn't because I want or need to do the government any favors and certainly not because it's "required" (it isn't), but because it simply saves me a lot of headache and discomfort. I don't know how many guns (or televisions, or couches, or teacups...) you folks own, but if you point to one of my guns I may or may not remember exactly when I bought it or where, or even the year I bought it. That can be a problem down the road for a lot of reasons, not just in case of traces.
By the way, I also do the same form when I buy a gun. I want to be able to remember, and show, exactly when and from whom I bought it so that if it was used in a crime right before I purchased it, I'm not the guy holding the hot potato.
ATF doesnt really give a shit about your "personal" forms. They wont hold up to anything really. Its to make you feel better but legally wont help at all. Even if your gun was used in a crime the firearms number will not come up in any search. The only way your firearms number will ever get into the "system" is if ATF audits an FFL and takes their 4473s and they know for a fact ALL of them are stolen or if you report it stoeln. ATF never knows what you have let alone what the serial numbers are. When you fill out a 4473 and do a NICS check, they dont even know if you went through with the sale, they are only saying "its okay for this guy to buy a gun". Only your FFL knows what you have and your serial number thats on his 4473. And most good FFLs will never get their 4473s takien away from them.....
Step 1: Give or Receive Cash
Step 2: Give or Receive Firearm
Step 3: Walk or Drive Away
I don't complicate things. My process is completely legal.
Usually just a quick glance at a Nevada ID, they're supposed to be a resident, and a handshake but other than that you hit it right on the money.
This is a serious question. If you just cash sell a firearm and the next day it is used in a crime, how are not a suspect?
ATF doesnt really give a shit about your "personal" forms. They wont hold up to anything really. Its to make you feel better but legally wont help at all.
I knew somebody would chime in and say something like this.
You don't do much trial work, do you? There isn't much better evidence of when and how a transaction took place than a contemporaneous writing memorializing it and signed by the parties. It is absolutely admissible (assuming there is a person, i.e., you to identify and authenticate it) as evidence, will carry a great deal of weight, and if nothing else it can be used to refresh your recollection.
On a less technical and more practical note, which scenario do you think is going to cause you less grief when somebody comes knocking on your door about a gun you sold 8 years ago:
1. "Oh yes. I vaguely remember that. I have a form that I always use and that we signed with the date and some information on it, let me go grab that. ... Ok, here is the date and the name and town of the person I sold it to."
OR
2. "Uhh... yeah.... I sold that to some dude a few years ago. No, I don't remember his name. No, couldn't tell you exactly when. Uh... yeah, sorry, I don't remember that either..."
Even if your gun was used in a crime the firearms number will not come up in any search. The only way your firearms number will ever get into the "system" is if ATF audits an FFL and takes their 4473s and they know for a fact ALL of them are stolen or if you report it stoeln. ATF never knows what you have let alone what the serial numbers are. When you fill out a 4473 and do a NICS check, they dont even know if you went through with the sale, they are only saying "its okay for this guy to buy a gun". Only your FFL knows what you have and your serial number thats on his 4473. And most good FFLs will never get their 4473s takien away from them.....
You don't seem to have a grasp of how this actually works.
First of all, any time a FFL goes out of business, all of his records go to the ATF. I'm sure you know that, being a FFL yourself. If he's still in business and a gun trace is initiated, then yes, the investigators will end up at that FFL (or at least calling him to get the information or a copy of the 4473) and then they are off and running. So ATF may not know at any given moment what you have, but they can find out if they have a reason to trace the gun. If and when a gun gets traced to me, I want something documenting my link in the chain. It's not a background check, it's not "registration," it's pure CYA.
I knew somebody would chime in and say something like this.
You don't do much trial work, do you? There isn't much better evidence of when and how a transaction took place than a contemporaneous writing memorializing it and signed by the parties. It is absolutely admissible (assuming there is a person, i.e., you to identify and authenticate it) as evidence, will carry a great deal of weight, and if nothing else it can be used to refresh your recollection.
On a less technical and more practical note, which scenario do you think is going to cause you less grief when somebody comes knocking on your door about a gun you sold 8 years ago:
1. "Oh yes. I vaguely remember that. I have a form that I always use and that we signed with the date and some information on it, let me go grab that. ... Ok, here is the date and the name and town of the person I sold it to."
OR
2. "Uhh... yeah.... I sold that to some dude a few years ago. No, I don't remember his name. No, couldn't tell you exactly when. Uh... yeah, sorry, I don't remember that either..."
You don't seem to have a grasp of how this actually works.
First of all, any time a FFL goes out of business, all of his records go to the ATF. I'm sure you know that, being a FFL yourself. If he's still in business and a gun trace is initiated, then yes, the investigators will end up at that FFL (or at least calling him to get the information or a copy of the 4473) and then they are off and running. So ATF may not know at any given moment what you have, but they can find out if they have a reason to trace the gun. If and when a gun gets traced to me, I want something documenting my link in the chain. It's not a background check, it's not "registration," it's pure CYA.
This is one of the reasons I always suggest ftf sales DO keep records of who and when they sell a gun, along with make and s/n of all currently owned guns. What is wrong with actually helping leo in an investigation. You may very well help a stolen gun end up back with it's rightful owner...maybe even yours. I once got a .380 model 84 back that was stolen from my Dad's car 8 YEARS afterward because the s/n was on the report. It would have been destroyed otherwise.
Plus, I always thought I would have felt dumb if a stolen firearm was traced back to me and I had to tell leo "I sold it at the gun show to some 5'10" white guy wearing a baseball cap."
John_Wayne777
05-06-10, 11:55
Smart people would listen to DBrowne on this one.
I make a copy of DL and I prefer the buyer to also have a valid LTCF. Thats it... It satisfies my desire to make sure that I am selling to an instate resident and someone who has been vetted by a background check in the past.
I do this because I want to, not because I have to. All handguns are transferred through a FFL. Pa does not allow FTF transfers on handguns.
In this litigious time I can not believe people would just hand off a gun with no paper work. I call internet ego and Estanding up for their rights, or they are just stupid.
I went through the FFL dealer. If I sold to a nut at least I tried not to. Also on a trade I don't want to buy a stolen gun or one that was used in a crime.
I'm less concerned about criminal issues. I'm more concerned about a civil suit if, God forbid, a weapon I sold were to be used in a violent crime causing death. I have no idea if it would make any difference, but I feel that I'd have a much better chance defending myself from a civil suit if I can document that the buyer provided me with a state ID and a LTCH showing me he is not prohibited from owning a firearm.
Maybe these steps still wouldn't give me much protection from a civil suit, but I feel better having taken the steps in my OP. It's interesting to find out how some of the senior members view these transactions.
theJanitor
05-06-10, 15:23
Since when do we have gun registration in Georgia, let alone the United States?
B_C
In Hawaii, everything is registered. Even firearms that were owned prior to the registration laws had to be submitted for registration. In that light, there are specific procedures that must be followed for FTF transactions.
NO STINKING WAY am I giving my social security number to anyone, let alone just because I might have bought a gun from you. That would be quite the scam these days... the gift that keeps on giving.
ghostman1960
05-06-10, 17:33
With the few FTF transactions I have sold, I come with 2 copies stating both of our names, date, buyers address, SSN and DOB, serial number and manufacture info of firearm, and description of transaction. We sign both copies and each keep one. I keep them in the safe for whatever reason might come up in the future. Overkill, maybe, just covering my tail.
This. And I am heavily armed too! lol
I knew somebody would chime in and say something like this.
You don't do much trial work, do you? There isn't much better evidence of when and how a transaction took place than a contemporaneous writing memorializing it and signed by the parties. It is absolutely admissible (assuming there is a person, i.e., you to identify and authenticate it) as evidence, will carry a great deal of weight, and if nothing else it can be used to refresh your recollection.
On a less technical and more practical note, which scenario do you think is going to cause you less grief when somebody comes knocking on your door about a gun you sold 8 years ago:
1. "Oh yes. I vaguely remember that. I have a form that I always use and that we signed with the date and some information on it, let me go grab that. ... Ok, here is the date and the name and town of the person I sold it to."
OR
2. "Uhh... yeah.... I sold that to some dude a few years ago. No, I don't remember his name. No, couldn't tell you exactly when. Uh... yeah, sorry, I don't remember that either..."
You don't seem to have a grasp of how this actually works.
First of all, any time a FFL goes out of business, all of his records go to the ATF. I'm sure you know that, being a FFL yourself. If he's still in business and a gun trace is initiated, then yes, the investigators will end up at that FFL (or at least calling him to get the information or a copy of the 4473) and then they are off and running. So ATF may not know at any given moment what you have, but they can find out if they have a reason to trace the gun. If and when a gun gets traced to me, I want something documenting my link in the chain. It's not a background check, it's not "registration," it's pure CYA.
I dot do any trial work at all, no. Here in my state you dont need any paper work at all for a FTF sale. DOnt complicate things with a FTF, otherwise go through an FFL. Simple, if you dont feel warm and fuzzy about it dont do the deal. Ive talked to a lot of ATF agents and they made it pretty clear your home made "forms" dont mean a thing to them, esp. in a FTF sale. It ight help in court yes but we are loosing simple firearm rights everyday and the day of the "good deals" at gun shows and long gone. Dont complicate what you dont have to. Thats what the government is for....
I dot do any trial work at all, no. Here in my state you dont need any paper work at all for a FTF sale. DOnt complicate things with a FTF, otherwise go through an FFL. Simple, if you dont feel warm and fuzzy about it dont do the deal. Ive talked to a lot of ATF agents and they made it pretty clear your home made "forms" dont mean a thing to them, esp. in a FTF sale. It ight help in court yes but we are loosing simple firearm rights everyday and the day of the "good deals" at gun shows and long gone. Dont complicate what you dont have to. Thats what the government is for....
It's not required in my state, either. Or in most states. That's not why you do it.
As far as what ATF agents have told you they think, I don't really care. Having the form is, regardless of their opinions:
1. Admissible evidence
2. A way for me to recall when and to whom I sold the gun, so I can then tell them when they knock on my door.
All of which still beats the hell out having no corroborating writing and not remembering.
Belmont31R
05-06-10, 20:36
It's not required in my state, either. Or in most states. That's not why you do it.
As far as what ATF agents have told you they think, I don't really care. Having the form is, regardless of their opinions:
1. Admissible evidence
2. A way for me to recall when and to whom I sold the gun, so I can then tell them when they knock on my door.
All of which still beats the hell out having no corroborating writing and not remembering.
Which does what exactly?
I've never heard of someone being convicted of a crime because the gun was sold to them at some point in the past without any other evidence.
If anyone is that paranoid about a FTF transaction then go to an FFL, and have it transferred that way. The dealer records with a 4473 is going be more secure than your generic sale form.
Again Ive NEVER heard of anyone getting charged or convicted of a crime simply because a gun used in a crime was at one point tied to a single person.
It's not required in my state, either. Or in most states. That's not why you do it.
As far as what ATF agents have told you they think, I don't really care. Having the form is, regardless of their opinions:
1. Admissible evidence
2. A way for me to recall when and to whom I sold the gun, so I can then tell them when they knock on my door.
All of which still beats the hell out having no corroborating writing and not remembering.
Then why not just go through an FFl and be covered 100%? It costs the seller nothing. Look, heres what Im saying guys, we enjoy fewer and fewer gun freedoms everyday. Why go and f#*k one more up by adding more work and legalities to something that (in most states) doesnt need it? Common sense is your best protection in a firearm sale. If you dont feel right or just out right dont like the guy dont sell to him or dont buy from him. Why go through all the trouble to "cover your ass just in case" (with home made forms no less) when you guys who are paranoid about FTF sales can just tell the seller to meet at your FFL and do it all in ATF order? Now all we need is some guy to write ATF a letter to open their eyes and the next thing you know we have a open letter from ATF stating all FTF sales are no longer going to be allowed. I even set up my FFL so that I am not the FFL, so I (me) can still do off the books FTF buys for my own collecting. If there was really a need for tighter regulations on FTF private sales, dont you think there would be? Why not enjoy it while we can, if you want to write up a bunch of forms you think will cover your ass in case your gun is used in a crime, thats fine. And if you want to just cash and carry, thats fine to and perfectly legal. This system actually works for us guys, why throw a wrench into it?
Step 1: Give or Receive Cash
Step 2: Give or Receive Firearm
Step 3: Walk or Drive Away
I don't complicate things. My process is completely legal.
exactly
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