View Full Version : Problem with thumb safety on my M&P 45
I'm having some issues with keeping the thumb safety in the off position when I grip the gun. As soon as I get a good dominant grip on the weapon, the meaty portion right behind the thumb of my support hand(Left hand) slowly pushes the safety up and to the on position. I have pretty big hands. Does anyone else have this problem? And if so, does anyone know of a solution that does not involve removing the safety. I was thinking maybe I can modify the safety and just make it shorter so that it does not make contact with that portion of my hand.
I'm having some issues with keeping the thumb safety in the off position when I grip the gun. As soon as I get a good dominant grip on the weapon, the meaty portion right behind the thumb of my support hand(Left hand) slowly pushes the safety up and to the on position. I have pretty big hands. Does anyone else have this problem? And if so, does anyone know of a solution that does not involve removing the safety. I was thinking maybe I can modify the safety and just make it shorter so that it does not make contact with that portion of my hand.
The correct way to shoot a gun with a 1911 style TS is for you to rest your thumb on top of it while shooting.
C4
I don't know if that's the "correct way" as I believe everyone kinda has their own way of doing things, and shooting firearms is closer to an art than a science.
But, that being said, it is preferred to shoot with a 'thumbs forward' handgun grip.
I googled it and saw this guys video. I didn't watch the whole thing, but it displays what i'm referring to:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1042390/how_to_grip_a_handgun_double_thumbs_forward/
I myself adopted the 'thumbs forward' grip when i bought my first 1911 because i wanted to make sure that thumb safety came off and stayed off. I now use that grip for everything, and I can't even remember how i held a gun before.
The correct way to shoot a gun with a 1911 style TS is for you to rest your thumb on top of it while shooting.
C4
I tried that. It just does not feel natural to me. Although I really am not the most familiar with the1911 world. Do you think I should just keep at it until it becomes natural? I would just hate to have to remove the thumb safety. I like the safety value it adds to the weapon. That's just me though. I know alot of people don't like it.
John_Wayne777
05-06-10, 15:25
I would try shooting with your thumb riding the safety, Devil Dog. ;) That's generally the preferred method of operation when you have a thumb safety of that configuration. It's not as comfortable for me as with a 1911, but it's effective on the M&P and is the best way to ensure that you don't accidentally engage the safety under recoil.
Not to derail too much, but I think by correct, Grant means "most reliable, highest performance". Thumbs forward, strong hand thumb on top of 1911-type safety is pretty much proven beyond dispute at this point.
1 - it keeps the safety from engaging inadvertently, and
2 - thumbs forward, support hand wrist locked down enables dramatically better and more consistent recoil control. Yes, there are decent shooters that still use Weaver. But there are no great shooters that do it - they've all migrated to thumbs forward because its proven to work the best at high speed shooting.
So, as to what is correct, guess the question is - how far do you want to go with your shooting skill?
Thumbs forward doesn't usually feel natural when you first try it - your left hand is rotated down. It's kind of like stepping in to a sports car after driving a little grocery getter minivan - it feels weird at first, but with practise, you can drive it a lot harder.
Assuming you have normal range of motion - thumbs forward will take you much farther. Regardless of whether I'm shooting a 1911 or not, I shoot with the same grip with most other semi-autos - the right thumb is in the same position (on top of where the 1911 safety would be). (Might have to modify your grip some with guns with goofy controls)
I do actually shoot with that thumbs forward grip, like you guys are describing. The only difference is that I rest the thumb of my shooting hand on top and a bit behind my support thumb(also in the forward position), off the safety. I have shot a couple of 1911s like this and it's never been an issue. The recoil control on this grip is outstanding. Accuracy has never been an issue with it for me either. It works great for me all around, just not with this particular safety. Maybe actually keeping the shooting thumb on the safety might make it better. I'll give it a try again and keep at it. Maybe I just need to get a feel for it. I appreciate the advice guys.
Interesting....when I went to thumbs forward, my right thumb just naturally wanted to go on top of the 1911 safety. That just happened to be where it fit best. I make some exceptions for different guns - example with my wife's BHP, the TS is a little too high, and so I rest my thumb a little farther out away from the frame/slide and that keeps me from getting slide bite on my thumb.
I do actually shoot with that thumbs forward grip, like you guys are describing. The only difference is that I rest the thumb of my shooting hand on top and a bit behind my support thumb(also in the forward position), off the safety. I have shot a couple of 1911s like this and it's never been an issue. The recoil control on this grip is outstanding. Accuracy has never been an issue with it for me either. It works great for me all around, just not with this particular safety. Maybe actually keeping the shooting thumb on the safety might make it better. I'll give it a try again and keep at it. Maybe I just need to get a feel for it. I appreciate the advice guys.
I should add that when I do thumbs forward, left wrist cocked down - there isn't room for me to put my right thumb below the safety. It either on top of the safety, or in the case of the BHP - out to side.
I'm guessing that your thumbs forward grip is lower on the gun than mine. I grab about as high as possible, with my left hand rotated down about 45 degrees.
Interesting....when I went to thumbs forward, my right thumb just naturally wanted to go on top of the 1911 safety. That just happened to be where it fit best. I make some exceptions for different guns - example with my wife's BHP, the TS is a little too high, and so I rest my thumb a little farther out away from the frame/slide and that keeps me from getting slide bite on my thumb.
I guess the way I do it is product of me shooting thumbs forward with M9 in the military. I went from the way the Marine Corps taught me how to grip a handgun to the thumbs forward grip because I saw how well it managed recoil. Since the M9 doesn't have a thumb safety like that, I guess my support thumb just fell in that spot. And that's how i have shot ever since. That's probably why it feels so different for me with my thumb on the safety. I'm gonna adjust though, and start placing my thumb on the safety like you guys have suggested. If I start training that way it should become a non-issue. Recoil control should stay exactly the same so I really have nothing to lose in making the switch. Thanks man. And thanks again to everybody else as well. I really appreciate the input.
I should add that when I do thumbs forward, left wrist cocked down - there isn't room for me to put my right thumb below the safety. It either on top of the safety, or in the case of the BHP - out to side.
I'm guessing that your thumbs forward grip is lower on the gun than mine. I grab about as high as possible, with my left hand rotated down about 45 degrees.
Yeah, I grab as high as possible too. My shooting thumb ends up on basically the same level as the safety, but just to the left of it. Kinda like it's "piggy backing" on my support thumbs i guess would be the best way to describe it.
I'll tell you, I carry a 1911, and placing your thumb on top of the thumb safety becomes natural the more you handle it. I place my second thumb usually ontop of the flat portion of the slide stop, away from the checkering.
Thumbs forward also is really (IMHO) the best way to shoot, as you grip the gun as high as you can (within reason) to control recoil.
That being said, I was in a Gun Shop today, helping my brother shop for handguns, I've read a lot about M&P's here, he's looking at an XD, and for his needs, I think it'll work fine (Specifically the XD-45 Model, with thumb safety), so I saw in the case an M&P 9 and handled it.
The thumb safeties do click on and off fairly easily compared to a 1911, I can tell you that right away, I really think you're going to have to learn to put your thumb ontop of the Thumb Safety.
YMMV.
I'll tell you, I carry a 1911, and placing your thumb on top of the thumb safety becomes natural the more you handle it. I place my second thumb usually ontop of the flat portion of the slide stop, away from the checkering.
Thumbs forward also is really (IMHO) the best way to shoot, as you grip the gun as high as you can (within reason) to control recoil.
That being said, I was in a Gun Shop today, helping my brother shop for handguns, I've read a lot about M&P's here, he's looking at an XD, and for his needs, I think it'll work fine (Specifically the XD-45 Model, with thumb safety), so I saw in the case an M&P 9 and handled it.
The thumb safeties do click on and off fairly easily compared to a 1911, I can tell you that right away, I really think you're going to have to learn to put your thumb ontop of the Thumb Safety.
YMMV.
I'm definately gonna start doing so. After this discussion I really do feel that this is the way I'm supposed to be shooting this particular handgun(1911 as well obviously). And it DAMN sure beats modifying or removing the thumb safety. Although I don't think it would have ever gotten to that point to tell you the truth, as I don't think I'm qualified to do such a thing. In doing so I would probably be more likely to break something on the weapon than help any :D
I'm definately gonna start doing so. After this discussion I really do feel that this is the way I'm supposed to be shooting this particular handgun(1911 as well obviously). And it DAMN sure beats modifying or removing the thumb safety. Although I don't think it would have ever gotten to that point to tell you the truth, as I don't think I'm qualified to do such a thing. In doing so I would probably be more likely to break something on the weapon than help any :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48
Todd explains it pretty well.
You're pretty much going to set your right thumb ontop your left thumb, the end of my right thumb sits right ontop of where my thumb begins. (If I could take a picture of it I would, but obviously, I need hands to take pictures. :D)
It takes a little getting use to, just like reaching out further on the handguard of an AR does, but I'll tell you, it works, at least in my experience.
I tried that. It just does not feel natural to me. Although I really am not the most familiar with the1911 world. Do you think I should just keep at it until it becomes natural? I would just hate to have to remove the thumb safety. I like the safety value it adds to the weapon. That's just me though. I know alot of people don't like it.
No it does not (angle is wrong). This is why I do not recommend them.
Luckily for you, you can remove them and install the spacers.
C4
cgcorrea--At SOTG Range 130, they ABSOLUTELY teach thumb on top of the MEU-SOC 1911 safety when shooting. This is also the preferred way to shoot the M&P w/ambi safety.
One of the main advantages of the M&P over the Glock for uniformed patrol use is the availability of a manual safety, otherwise I'd be tempted to stick with the 3rd gen G17's and 4th gen G22's. All my M&P's (40 & 45) are outfitted with thumb safeties; they work great, especially for former 1911 shooters.
cgcorrea--At SOTG Range 130, they ABSOLUTELY teach thumb on top of the MEU-SOC 1911 safety when shooting. This is also the preferred way to shoot the M&P w/ambi safety.
One of the main advantages of the M&P over the Glock for uniformed patrol use is the availability of a manual safety, otherwise I'd be tempted to stick with the 3rd gen G17's and 4th gen G22's. All my M&P's (40 & 45) are outfitted with thumb safeties; they work great, especially for former 1911 shooters.
Dr. Roberts,
In your opinion, does the 4th gen G22 correct the previous deficiencies of this platform as they relate to issues with weapon mounted lights and the shorter service life compared to the G17?
Thanks,
Steve
Grant may be on to something. Some folks hands just aren't happy with the M&P TS. Works fine for me, but I've heard other people (fellow 1911 guys) not like them, and some others like them fine.
Dunno - just a difference in hands I guess. It works for me, may not for you.
If not, just take the safety off.
"In your opinion, does the 4th gen G22 correct the previous deficiencies of this platform as they relate to issues with weapon mounted lights and the shorter service life compared to the G17?"
In the short term, the gen 4 G22's so far seem to be more consistent than gen 3 G22's; however, the true test will be long term durability and reliability--for that we will have to wait at least 12-18 months and assess how large numbers of 4th gen G22's do over the course of shooting 50,000+ rounds.
HowardCohodas
05-07-10, 04:17
Luckily for you, you can remove them and install the spacers.
C4
Spacers! What spacers. I was repeatedly told by S&W customer service that there were no spacers available for the M&P 45 for the thumb safety I removed to accommodate the Crimson Trace laser I installed.
How do I get spacers?
Spacers! What spacers. I was repeatedly told by S&W customer service that there were no spacers available for the M&P 45 for the thumb safety I removed to accommodate the Crimson Trace laser I installed.
How do I get spacers?
I think we have some in our shop.
C4
HowardCohodas
05-07-10, 06:04
I think we have some in our shop.
C4
Looks like I'm in for another wallet-lightening trip to your toy store.
Spacers! What spacers. I was repeatedly told by S&W customer service that there were no spacers available for the M&P 45 for the thumb safety I removed to accommodate the Crimson Trace laser I installed.
How do I get spacers?
I just called S&W and asked...I guess I got lucky and got somone who knew what I was talking about...I paid for them and they sent them right out.. They went right in..
I just called S&W and asked...I guess I got lucky and got somone who knew what I was talking about...I paid for them and they sent them right out.. They went right in..
I called S&W earlier today to see if I could get a set to see how it works out for me without the TS and when I asked the guy about getting one from them he told me they don't "Do that", and when they do, its for 1 side only(which kinda confused me) because of liability reasons. Then I told him that a "buddy of mine" told me about how they got a set of spacers when they called a while back. He then told me to hold so that he could ask someone about it. When he came back he said that he found a set of spacers lying around and that he was gonna send it to me free of charge, but that he was right the first time when he said they didn't send those out because they don't condone removing the TS , as he says it changes the S/N the weapon is supposed to have. It was my impression that S&W made this particular handgun the way they did so that you had the option to remove the TS if desired. I mean am I wrong?
I called S&W earlier today to see if I could get a set to see how it works out for me without the TS and when I asked the guy about getting one from them he told me they don't "Do that", and when they do, its for 1 side only(which kinda confused me) because of liability reasons. Then I told him that a "buddy of mine" told me about how they got a set of spacers when they called a while back. He then told me to hold so that he could ask someone about it. When he came back he said that he found a set of spacers lying around and that he was gonna send it to me free of charge, but that he was right the first time when he said they didn't send those out because they don't condone removing the TS , as he says it changes the S/N the weapon is supposed to have. It was my impression that S&W made this particular handgun the way they did so that you had the option to remove the TS if desired. I mean am I wrong?
It does not suprise me that S&W doesn't want you to modify the weapon.
This is where a S&W LE Dealer/Armorer comes into the picture. ;)
C4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48
Todd explains it pretty well.
You're pretty much going to set your right thumb ontop your left thumb, the end of my right thumb sits right ontop of where my thumb begins. (If I could take a picture of it I would, but obviously, I need hands to take pictures. :D)
It takes a little getting use to, just like reaching out further on the handguard of an AR does, but I'll tell you, it works, at least in my experience.
You know that's pretty funny, that's the exact video i saw when I first started carrying a handgun that made me change my pistol grip.
It does not suprise me that S&W doesn't want you to modify the weapon.
This is where a S&W LE Dealer/Armorer comes into the picture. ;)
C4
Well I just get the impression that whether you get a spacer from them or not depends on who happens to pick up the phone at customer service when you call. There's HowardCohodas that said S&W told him that there were no spacers available for the M&P 45. Then there's ralph that says they did send him one, but charged him for it. I myself had called when I first bought the weapon(about 3 months ago) to inquire about it and was told that they didn't make a spacer and that if I took the TS off I would basically just have to live with 2 holes on my gun. And then the gentleman that I talked to today told me that they were not supposed to provide spacers but that he would send one to me free of charge(essencially doing me a solid). I mean WTF chuck. I am glad that I got one though.
Well I just get the impression that whether you get a spacer from them or not depends on who happens to pick up the phone at customer service when you call. There's HowardCohodas that said S&W told him that there were no spacers available for the M&P 45. Then there's ralph that says they did send him one, but charged him for it. I myself had called when I first bought the weapon(about 3 months ago) to inquire about it and was told that they didn't make a spacer and that if I took the TS off I would basically just have to live with 2 holes on my gun. And then the gentleman that I talked to today told me that they were not supposed to provide spacers but that he would send one to me free of charge(essencially doing me a solid). I mean WTF chuck. I am glad that I got one though.
It isn't a part or an option they advertise. So you will find that someone know about it and others won't know a single thing.
Every single CS agent you deal with at ANY firearms manufacturer is going to be different in their knowledge, attitude and helpfulness.
C4
It isn't a part or an option they advertise. So you will find that someone know about it and others won't know a single thing.
Every single CS agent you deal with at ANY firearms manufacturer is going to be different in their knowledge, attitude and helpfulness.
C4
Got cha. Making the switch won't void the warranty or anything though, will it?
Alpha Sierra
05-07-10, 16:00
I'm sure your problem would go away without having to change your preferred grip if you just 86'd the thumb safety.
I'm sure your problem would go away without having to change your preferred grip if you just 86'd the thumb safety.
86? What do you mean?
If S&W is sending people plugs, has anyone had luck getting a safety and sear housing for their M&P 45? I have a non-safety model with plugs and cut-outs that I'd really like to convert, but S&W was no help.
86? What do you mean?
86ing something refers to nixing something.
"You want a hamburger with the onion 86ed?"
I was unable to secure spacers from S&W CS myself, but I only gave it two shots and having holes in the frame doesn't bother me much.
Got cha. Making the switch won't void the warranty or anything though, will it?
I'm guessing, but I don't think it would, In my case I've already voided the warranty(technically) by installing Apex parts...I know that should I have to send it in they will remove the Apex parts and NOT return them.. fortunately for me, I don't live far from G&R..
86ing something refers to nixing something.
"You want a hamburger with the onion 86ed?"
I was unable to secure spacers from S&W CS myself, but I only gave it two shots and having holes in the frame doesn't bother me much.
Haha. Got it. Never heard that one before.
You know that's pretty funny, that's the exact video i saw when I first started carrying a handgun that made me change my pistol grip.
That video made me change my pistol grip.
I've never regretted it. It vastly improved how I shoot, I'd say I went from a terrible shot very inconsistent, to decent.
I'm not as fast as I'd like to be on follow ups, I don't shoot as accurately consistently as I'd like, etc. (Who ever thinks they're fast enough or shoots well enough, honestly?) But all of those just mean I need to get more rounds down range, and more time with the gun. ;)
I called S&W earlier today to see if I could get a set to see how it works out for me without the TS and when I asked the guy about getting one from them he told me they don't "Do that", and when they do, its for 1 side only(which kinda confused me) because of liability reasons. Then I told him that a "buddy of mine" told me about how they got a set of spacers when they called a while back. He then told me to hold so that he could ask someone about it. When he came back he said that he found a set of spacers lying around and that he was gonna send it to me free of charge, but that he was right the first time when he said they didn't send those out because they don't condone removing the TS , as he says it changes the S/N the weapon is supposed to have. It was my impression that S&W made this particular handgun the way they did so that you had the option to remove the TS if desired. I mean am I wrong?
So I don't work in the gun business, I work in the Computer Business, but I get the feeling the Warranties are the same.
What this more or less told you, is yes they have spacers, and according to Grant (I trust him, I don't think the guy gives bad advice, I may not agree with every single word he says, but he's definitely informed on what he's talking about.) they don't advocate them being changed.
That being said, they probably don't want it out that you can modify the pistol, because they don't want average joe changing the pistol.
Because they may break it, or they may induce some unforeseen issue, usually modifying the way a gun works will void your warranty, as they didn't design the gun to operate in said configuration, how could they possibly warrant that it'd work?
I mean kind of like some computer manufacturers get all bent out of shape if you break the seal on the case to access the inside of it, but, realistically, it's negligent not to vacuum it out or get the dust out once or twice a year, as they insulate the components to build more heat.
But there is a bit of a loop hole that I think takes it out of that context of modification, it's an OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) part, so, they designed it, you could install it yourself, or if you really wanted to CYA, you could have an S&W certified armor install it, and just keep the bill of sale as record in case you run into issue.
Also, what you need to know is very important by what he told you above. According to your Serial Number this model has Thumb Safeties, meaning, if you ever have to send this in for warranty work, it may be a good idea to put the thumb safety back on the gun, as they may not service it, simply saying "This has been modified, we won't repair any of the rest of the gun, as we don't know what else the end user has modified." I don't think gun manufacturers are that finicky, but you never know.
Again that's a lot of maybes and worst case scenarios. I really think if you get a S&W Armor to install it, you'll CYA from any kind of liability from them when using the parts they designed in their gun.
As a side note, personally I like thumb safeties, but, I can understand it's not for everyone.
The technique feels unnatural at first, I teach it to new shooters, and I notice their support hand creeps steadily lower and lower to the base of the gun, but I'll tell you, the amount of control it promotes is great. I shoot .45 ACP pretty much exclusively, and I feel completely comfortable handling it and firing it from that height.
Hope this was helpful.
Well I just get the impression that whether you get a spacer from them or not depends on who happens to pick up the phone at customer service when you call. There's HowardCohodas that said S&W told him that there were no spacers available for the M&P 45. Then there's ralph that says they did send him one, but charged him for it. I myself had called when I first bought the weapon(about 3 months ago) to inquire about it and was told that they didn't make a spacer and that if I took the TS off I would basically just have to live with 2 holes on my gun. And then the gentleman that I talked to today told me that they were not supposed to provide spacers but that he would send one to me free of charge(essencially doing me a solid). I mean WTF chuck. I am glad that I got one though.
Actually, they sent me two..one for each side of the frame,as they don't interchange
Actually, they sent me two..one for each side of the frame,as they don't interchange
yeah my bad. I meant a set. I was kinda in a hurry when I typed that. I was at work.
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