View Full Version : My interesting Gen4 G17 experience.
I initially posted about my Gen4 G17 that I picked up on 4-15-10 in this thread http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=52911.
The below quote is my last post in this thread on my Gen4 G17.
Picked up my Gen4 G17 on 4/15/10 and as of 4/29/10 I am at 1700 rounds through it (all Federal Am Eagle 124gr ball). Just over 1K without light and just under 700 w/ light. No issues as of yet. So far I have done a 3.5 w/standard spring, extended slide release and a set of TruGlo fiber optic sights. Very accurate and very smooth. Does feel a bit lighter on the recoil vs my G34. I don't discount any of the reported problems that I have heard about, but I haven't experienced any yet. I also don't personally know anyone else running a Gen4, so I haven't personally seen anything else good or bad.
I would like a Gen4 G19 when they hit and won't be afraid to purchase one. I am not sure that I would give them my thumbs up approval as a recommendation quite yet, but would offer my own experience and acknowledge reported potential issues.
My Gen4 G17 running the Hackathorn Standards Drill. This is right at the 1700 round mark. Shooter might need some help, but the pistol is doing its job and runs like a champ, so far anyway. :)
Hackathorn Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp-1Sd6Ums4)
Hackathorn Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoxLQWMQaaU)
Since that time I have put another 700 rounds through it for 2400 rounds total. NOTHING has changed on weapon and ammo since the above quoted post. Didn't have a problem until now. However I am having some interesting results so I thought I would start my own post and track my findings here.
Yesterday 5-5-10......First day where issues started happening. Nothing that I can make note of has changed since my last shooting session. Shot 300 rounds American Eagle 124gr FMJ through my new Gen4 G17 with a light bringing up the total to 2000 rounds. Just over 1K with a light and just under 1K without a light. All 5 mags are the same and are new since this gun purchase. During these 300 rounds I Had 2 failures to lock back on an empty magazine and 1 slide locked back with a partially full magazine. Marked each magazine 1-5. Ended the shooting session as I didn't have more time to shoot.
Today 5-6-10......Stripped, inspected, cleaned and lubed up weapon and mags. Nothing out of the ordinary noted. Mags are numbered 1-5. Shot 400 rounds of the Am Eagle 9mm ammo. Had 5 failures to lock back on an empty magazine. Magazines 1(x2), 4 & 5(x2). Had 2 slide lock backs on a partially full magazine. Mags 1 & 3.
Stripped the weapon to examine, closely inspected mags after each issue. Nothing noted out of the ordinary. Seems strange that for 1700 rounds I had zero problems and now the issues seem to be increasing rapidly. Very unsettling. I am hoping to get to the range again tomorrow and see what happens. I am fairly sure this is not a mag problem and these are the same mags that have been used for the first 1700 rounds. I will be taking other mags from my G34 that I have never had an issue with just to see what happens.
May or may not make it to the range tomorrow. Will update as soon as I can.
madisonsfinest
05-06-10, 22:14
Curious to see if a new recoil assembly spring is the fix, and if so, I'm surprised that it only lasted that long.
SWATcop556
05-06-10, 22:49
Not calling your shooting ability into question but is there any chance you are activating the extended slide release or keeping it from locking the slide back. I had issues with the extended release when I first started shooting Glocks so now I only run the standard slide release. Just a thought.
if you've detail stripped the lower it's also possible to have the slide lock spring oriented wrong. that'll give you problems for sure...
keep us updated. I'm sure glock will get the gen 4's working perfect, but i'm not interested in one just yet.
With an empty magazine, does the slide lock back reliably when you actuate the slide by hand? If so, I'd say the problem is with that extended slide release.
I was running an extended slide release and never had a problem, but last weekend an instructor made a minute change in my grip, and suddenly the slide was locking back with some frequency. I went back to the standard slide release and the problem went away.
rifleman2000
05-07-10, 10:19
As per above, the first place I would look is my grip to make sure my thumb is not activating/interfering with the slide lock.
That happens to me all the time. If you advocate and use a high grip, Glocks will fail to lock back on occasion. When I'm really running an aggressive grip it can happen as much as 50%.
Non issue.
Non issue.
I guess you skimmed the part where he's also having premature lockbacks on partially full mags?
I agree with the others that the extended slide stop is exacerbating the issue.
I guess you skimmed the part where he's also having premature lockbacks on partially full mags?
I agree with the others that the extended slide stop is exacerbating the issue.
He had a SINGLE instance of that happening, so that is nothing more than an outlier. Unless there's something about a 3rd gen extended slide release mounted on a 4th gen frame, this is still a grip/software, issue.
Not calling your shooting ability into question but is there any chance you are activating the extended slide release or keeping it from locking the slide back. I had issues with the extended release when I first started shooting Glocks so now I only run the standard slide release. Just a thought.
My cousin was unconsciously activating the extended slide release on his gen3 as well....
He had a SINGLE instance of that happening, so that is nothing more than an outlier.
You're still skimming
1 slide locked back with a partially full magazine...
Had [another] 2 slide lock backs on a partially full magazine
He had one occurrence on Wed and two on Thurs.
The issue is proving to be repeatable in his shooting across different range sessions. Even if it's not happening 50% of the time, I'd still consider it a lot more relevant than an "outlier."
I agree with you that changing grip would alleviate the issue, but the extended stop exacerbates that issue (and will require even more grip adjustment).
The issue with extended slide stops on Glocks is that they are often engaged by accident by right handed shooters. I know there has been at least one guy in one of Mr. Vickers' courses who has had an issue with his grip accidentally engaging the slide lock halfway through a magazine. I can say that with confidence because I'm that guy. For a lefty the extended release makes it easier to drop the slide from lock using the left index finger...but for a right-hander the extended lock is easier to push up on with the support hand.
I've done the same thing a few times during Todd's class
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=620004&highlight=extended#post620004
Tracking now, but again, unless there is a known mechanical issue, this is still a software problem.
Simply shoot the pistol in one handed drills (not a bad thing to do anyway) and see if the problem recurs; if after 500-1000 rounds there have been no additional problems, then it was clearly a shooter induced problem. If the problems persist, it is clearly NOT a thumb issue.
John_Wayne777
05-07-10, 11:43
Surf's level of experience is well above average, so I would assume that if his grip was causing the problem he would have noticed. With anyone else I would blame the extended slide release right away.
Heavy Metal
05-07-10, 12:12
These are exactly the problems I was having with my G-19 till I shit-canned the extended slide stop.
Simply shoot the pistol in one handed drills (not a bad thing to do anyway) and see if the problem recurs.
In some instances, simply doing one-handed may not answer it. I almost never get slide lock when shooting Glock right handed because I need all grip I can get; subsequently I cannot roll out my thumb. If interference with slide is a considerartion I'd shoot it left handed.
Possibly your mag springs are getting a bit weak and can't keep up with the slide after the last round. Also, standard pressure ammo may not be cycling the slide all the way back giving even less time for the follower to come up and activate the slide lock on the last round.
I prefer the Wolff +10% mag springs. I have been using them since 1994 and have not had to replace one yet.
I appreciate the vote of confidence Mr. Wayne. ;)
Sorry fellas, perhaps I should have clarified these points earlier and I do apologize. Just to clarify, my primary pistol right now and for the past decade has been a Sig Sauer P226, one of the most, if not the most infamous grip / issue related pistol made. Because I do have a pretty aggressive modern style combat grip, I very much use a modified thumb placement where I now quite naturally ride my primary hands thumb stacked, but slightly outward bound on my support hands thumb, just to avoid grip issues. I also teach an aggressive thumbs forward combat grip to our new guys, which invariably causes issues in their transition to Sigs, so I am very sensitive to addressing grip related malfunctions, even riding the decocker on the Sig creating light primer strikes.
I am not saying that it is impossible for me to cause this type of shooter / grip related malfunction, but it is almost non existent for my style. I do run extended slide release levers on almost all of my Glocks and have never had issues in tens of thousands of rounds, so I am very familiar with this set up. I also ran this same set up in this particular pistol for its first 1700 rounds with no issues or changes since then.
Now for the issues. While I was not doing pure isolation shooting to try and troubleshoot the problem, I was however cognizant of the problem and immediately when I had a failure, I paused, holding my exact grip and closely examined my grip and the weapon to see if there was anything immediately visible. Nothing that I could determine just from visually looking at my grip or the pistol itself.
I also pulled the guts and everything looks good to go and installed correct. It is really puzzling that the weapon was having failure to lock back issues and locking back with partially full mags. I would more commonly expect one or the other. In any event, as Doc mentions I intend to do some pure isolation shooting and rotating proven mags and running these new mags with my absolutely trouble free G34 with an almost identical set up. I am pretty convinced that it isn't a mag issue, but can't completely rule it out as of yet.
I do appreciate all of the brainstorming! Sucks but I don't have time to make it to the range today and I don't shoot on weekends, so this will have to wait til next week. I was about to pick up a Gen4 G22 and was eagerly awaiting other upcoming model releases, so I am real anxious to get this worked out.
OK, to update this one. Since I pulled the guts and took a look inside, everything looked to be good to go. I simply put it back together, cleaned the weapon and lubed it up as normal.
I do not know why as I haven't changed anything else but I have not had a single issue and I am currently up to 3400 rounds through it. Logic seems to dictate that by gutting it and putting it back together cured something, but everything looked correct and I didn't change anything.
I would also find it strange that I had a grip brain fart for 300 or so rounds, but anything really is possible. If it were grip related, I do find it more odd that I haven't produced another grip brain fart in the last several hundred rounds since I gutted it.
Not sure what to think at this point. I will see what happens in the next 1K or so rounds through it.
Surf,
Stranger things have happened and maybe something was corrected in your detailed strip and assembly. I say keep shooting it and keep us posted. It looks like it is going to be a high round count gun for you and many of us are interested in knowing how the Gen4's will handle it. Thanks for sharing your experience.
O
dilligaffrn
05-24-10, 01:23
I'd bet the grove in the trigger pin was binding on the slide stop.
It would not be the 1st time I have seen this happen.
Just an update of my Gen4 G17. I will say right now, that my experiences are only a single sample, so take it FWIW.
I cannot really account for what the issue was in the pistol. Perhaps something fouling the recoil spring assembly perhaps as the dual recoil does have tight fit design as far as the springs themselves, but I cannot say for sure what the issue was. I am sure that the slide stop spring was fit under correctly but at this point I still cannot say for sure what during that 300 round period caused those issues.
I will say that I am pretty much 110% it isn't my own grip and the extended release as I run all my Glocks in this manner and the problem has not resurfaced since and I sure as heck haven't changed up my grip.
Since the last posting I started a torture test at 3250 round count mark. It was the standard torture test posted right here at M4C, where I cleaned the pistol completely and lubed it with Break Free CLP. Instead of 2K rounds I went to 3K rounds with no cleaning or lubing. Not a single issue and I am quite sure it would have kept on going for quite a bit more. The test took 10 days with 5 days of actual shooting. The test ended at the end of July. From Mid April when I got the pistol to the end of July the pistol had 6250 rounds through it at the end of the test.
Since the end of the test at he end of June, I cleaned, lubed the weapon and shot a video. Since that time I decided to run another back to pack torture on the pistol and so far I have put another 2250 rounds through it without lube and or cleaning and I am up to 8500 rounds total. I am still on the stock recoil spring and nothing else has been changed since the 3.5 connector, extended slide stop and a .25 cent trigger job. Again not a single issue so far. I am not sure how far I am going with this torture test, but I originally wanted to shoot for 4K rounds. I have a 10 week period coming up very soon where I will not be able to shoot as often, or will be relegated to shooting mostly another pistol predominantly so we will see.
In any event, I have several video's of this pistol in action and an AAR on it after the 6250 round mark. The below video is a compilation of several video's, so if you are interested in seeing more of those videos in their entirety you can check out my channel. I will also have a Battlecomp review upcoming as Capt Nick was kind enough to send me a couple test units. I know the BattleComps aren't exactly fresh of the boat right now, but I only recently had time to get to them.
Anyway here is the compilation video with my AAR.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTVX8TUCVe0
Excellent review and video. This is why I come to M4C, people actually shoot here. Look forward to more reviews and video. :)
Surf - great vid and review. I was especially impressed with the speed of the weak hand hits and the speed of the strong hand only 6 shot string. Good stuff.
Excellent review and video. This is why I come to M4C, people actually shoot here. Look forward to more reviews and video. :)
Exactly.
Glad your gen4 has ironed itself out, JMHO but I think the intermittent issues are the dual-spring, they're flimsy and inconsistent and seem to change a bit depending on how they're orientated upon installation, wonder if they don't just add more downside then upside.
Anyways, nice shooting.
I have four Gen 4 Glocks and have not found the spring to be flimsy at all.
varoadking
08-29-10, 18:56
I have four Gen 4 Glocks...
You rock dood...
Funny...my Gen4's are all I seem to shoot anymore. I wish I could bring myself to unload all the dead weight in my safes, but I guess I'm just an ol' softie...
Tagged for follow up. Keep us posted
platoonDaddy
09-12-10, 10:46
Excellent review and video. This is why I come to M4C, people actually shoot here. Look forward to more reviews and video. :)
+1, dang for sure
Thanks for the comments and glad you guys enjoy the video's! Shooting video is a great way for me to see my own issues that I need to work on and if they help others, bonus!
I will just say that I have slowed down shooting this Gen4 G17. I am over 9K rounds on it and besides the extended slide stop, sights and connector, everything else is still stock, no spring replacement either. This is not a duty or defensive weapon so I am going to keep running it as is. Besides shooting a lot of rounds out of this pistol, I still must maintain my training on several other weapons. After finishing a 10 week evolution at the beginning of the year, I was out on the range quite a bit and a lot of my time for the past 4-5 months was doing a lot of shooting.
Unfortunately I am entering another 10 week phase starting Monday, so my own personal shooting will slow down quite a bit and I will have little time for weapons that are not a part of the program. I will be extremely busy and will be tied up during this time frame. So for those who watch my video's they may slow down over the next 10 weeks. Actually I am going to be pretty tied down until after the new year and it isn't going to get any better time wise for the next 14 months or so.
I will update when I get a chance to shoot it more. :)
I will just say that I have slowed down shooting this Gen4 G17. I am over 9K rounds on it
Unfortunately I am entering another 10 week phase starting Monday, so my own personal shooting will slow down quite a bit and I will have little time for weapons that are not a part of the program.
Dang. So what will you be shooting that IS part of the program? ;)
Dang. So what will you be shooting that IS part of the program? ;)Nothing too fancy. Our primary weapons during this 10 week program is;
Pistol - Sig Sauer P226 .40S&W
Rifle - Colt M4A1
Shotgun - Benelli M1 Super
We have a few other weapons in the arsenal but that will come later down the line if these guys successfully complete the program and progress onto the teams. But these are our 3 primary weapons.
Damn I need to remember to put on more sunscreen throughout the day. :(
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