View Full Version : Man mistaken for target shot during Ariz. gun training
HowardCohodas
05-07-10, 04:01
Man mistaken for target shot during Ariz. gun training (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/05/06/20100506man-shot-at-arizona-gun-training-abrk0506.html#ixzz0nCAfzxmc)
A 50-year-old man was mistaken for a target and accidentally shot during an exercise at a firearm-training facility in northern Arizona, authorities said.
The Florida man was training with three of his colleagues Sunday at the Gunsite Academy in Paulden, which is about 30 miles north of Prescott, the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office said Thursday.
The man was standing on a catwalk as his colleague fired at targets. The colleague saw the black silhouette of the man and fired, shooting the man in the abdomen, officials said.
Instructors administered first aid before he was flown to a local hospital for treatment and surgery. On Thursday, he was listed in good condition.
Trainees had been told not to shoot in the area of the catwalk. No charges were expected against the shooter.
Buz Mills is the owner of the facility and candidate for governor. "We are relieved this client is in good condition thanks to the swift actions of our staff at Gunsite and the dedicated paramedics at the Central Yavapai Fire District," Mills said. Mike Scerbo, press secretary for Buzz Mills, said Mills has owned Gunsite Academy since 1999.
DaBears_85
05-07-10, 05:25
So I picture the catwalk being a little down range and obviously up above the line of fire. Seems unnecessarily dangerous... Is that a common thing on ranges? I've been to quite a few in my day and have never seen something like that before. Probably for good reason.
It was a shoot house, and the guy who pulled the trigger should be in jail. How fing stupid can one be to think a target would be placed above the walls on a walkway.
DaBears_85
05-07-10, 05:38
It was a shoot house...
Ahh, that would make sense then. The catwalks that is, not the tard shooting the supervisor/instructor.
John_Wayne777
05-07-10, 07:09
Some people are not cut out for the shoothouse environment...or for firearms training in general. The shoothouse is a stressful environment and everybody doesn't do well under stress.
Paraclete comes
05-07-10, 07:17
wow! that guy needs to pull his head out of his ass. that seems like a no brainer move. I have been in several shoot houses and obviously your not shooting the observer on top. I dont even think the military briefs that one, and i feel like the military is retard friendly.
Belmont31R
05-07-10, 08:24
In Kuwait when we did the shoot houses with the civilian trainer guys everyone who was observing had to be behind the guys shooting (when up on top of the house looking down) Couldn't be standing above the targets. Also did a dry run before going hot.
But yeah some people are not cut out for this type of thing. I was nervous as shit I was going to get shot in the back or legs by some idiot in my unit. One moron on the convoy live fire iteration put a burst out of his 249 over the head of the gunner in the next truck......:eek: A different deployment another moron let a burst out through the door of the truck (soft skin doors).
Live fire training is the most beneficial but God help you if you have a true moron there with you.
this is scary...having never been to training, is it common for you guys to observe in such a manner while live rounds are going off??
If the shoot house is a regular training exercise and many people are not cut out for the stress, you would think precautions would be in place to keep trainers and observers from becoming tartgets.
again, i'm ignorant on these training facilities and procedures but I see multiple fails.
Training with firearms is very dangerous.
Target Identification is not an area to make a mistake.
John_Wayne777
05-07-10, 09:15
this is scary...having never been to training, is it common for you guys to observe in such a manner while live rounds are going off??
The catwalk is above the shoothouse. When shooters do what they are supposed to do, muzzles never go up high enough to hit anyone on the catwalk.
When I was shooting IPSC I had a white shirt with an airbrushed X from shoulder to hem on both sides. People would look and then laugh....I was a no-shoot target.
Glad he's listed as being in good condition and should pull through.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bn-5X4Kej0&feature=related
When I was shooting IPSC I had a white shirt with an airbrushed X from shoulder to hem on both sides. People would look and then laugh....I was a no-shoot target.
I could represent:
http://www.faqs.org/photo-dict/photofiles/list/1447/1961Scottish_flag.jpg
Maybe a bit of complacency on the catwalks? I'm pretty sure it's common sense to stay behind the shooter regardless of how high above them you are. Just my thought.
Jay Cunningham
05-07-10, 12:04
We need a lot more info.
PdxMotoxer
05-07-10, 12:08
it also shows the need for good verbal skills.
"Hey, dumbfuks i'm resetting the targets don't F'in shoot me"
comes to mind.
There are a million "Could have's, Should have's" but it boils down
to thank whoever he survived!! with what sounds like no lasting damage.
Now do they learn for this and change to a safer near fool proof method?
And hope by sharing this, others learn for this near tragedy and adopt
safer more fool proof rules and practices.
I doubt it..... but time will tell.
We can only hope.
*yet another reminder that no matter how long you have been shooting to please shoot safe* ;)
GermanSynergy
05-07-10, 15:11
Some people are not cut out for the shoothouse environment...or for firearms training in general. The shoothouse is a stressful environment and everybody doesn't do well under stress.
Truer words were never spoken.
We need a lot more info.
Yup.
I'd like to know more about the shooter, and what the range safety and pre-exercise briefings included.
RogerinTPA
05-07-10, 18:10
What a dumb ass... the victim should sue the shooter, maybe that will get his attention.
Jay Cunningham
05-07-10, 18:22
What a dumb ass... the victim should sue the shooter, maybe that will get his attention.
WE NEED MORE INFO. NONE OF US HAS ANY IDEA WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
then call Gunsite:
928-636-4565
or email the Ops manager: ed@gunsite.com
until that day
Mark
Jay Cunningham
05-07-10, 18:49
I am locking this thread until we get more info. Wild speculation is pointless and counter-productive.
Jay Cunningham
05-09-10, 20:04
Opened back up.
http://www.co.yavapai.az.us/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=56208
http://www.prescottaz.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=80823
RogerinTPA
05-09-10, 20:26
WE NEED MORE INFO. NONE OF US HAS ANY IDEA WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
Now that we do, it's a clear case of "failure to follow instruction".
the guy who pulled the trigger should be in jail. How
I still stand by what I said at the start of the thread.
hey guys im not condoning this at all, but as some of you know in the heat of the moment sometimes people just dont think. Adrenalin seems to cut off the ability to think for some people.The shooter was an idiot and it should have been disclosed that there will never be a target on the cat walk.But i can see how it might have happened.
ZuluDeltaBravo
05-09-10, 22:34
This seems seems to be a flat case of not IDing your target. Regardless of where the target is, if it's non-hostile, you don't shoot it. Simple as that.
There are a couple of other massive failures here, but that one glares at me as I read this.
LockenLoad
05-09-10, 23:06
I still stand by what I said at the start of the thread.
what charge stupidity? just curious as what you would charge him with
When I read this, it reminded me of a piece Paul Howe wrote about a year ago regarding training and safety. It's in the July 2009 Information Letters (under the Published Articles tab) on the CSAT website.
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published.htm
It was in response to the Yeager thing (the cameraman down range during a live fire). The piece was very interesting because it went further than the incident that was the impetus for writing it.
In the piece, Paul Howe discussed some of the dynamics with working with a group of shooters. One of the things he mentioned was shooters should "Never run behind any target" they had engaged and always knock it down prior to passing it. The idea was that someone behind you may see and shoot it without seeing you (since you're already obscured by it). He followed that immediately with the instruction "When in doubt, don't pull the trigger."
I can see why he says these things. I know it's a little different since the shooter in the story shot at a guy on the catwalk, but essentially the shooter was unsure of the target (despite the instructions) and reflexively shot at something he thought was a silhouette. If he had a guy in front of him who had been obscured by a silhouette target, he may have shot as well and got a similar bad result.
In his piece, he mentioned that he has seen both military and law enforcement personnel make these kinds of mistakes. -It's one of those things where we get to / should learn from the mistakes of others.
People make mistakes when under stress - in training, on the street and on the battlefield.
I can think of a top notch instructor who recently experienced a student shooting themself while reholstering, despite having received a safety brief.
There is a great number number of LEOs who have committed similar and/or more eggregious mistakes.
In this incident, the shootee was very fortunate.
The staff being trained and equipped to deal with this helped in the positive outcome, no doubt.
The preventable thing I can see with this situation is allowing guys to stand on the catwalk. I've seen ND's occur during reloading and stoppage clearing, and they usually go over the berm (since the muzzle is oriented up when this is occurring), and that general direction is where a guy on a catwalk would be.
It's not a bad idea when training to wear armor and have an IFAK and comm with you.
Wow. I hope the victim is doing ok, and recovers well. A frangible to the abdomen at close range doesn't sound too nice.
mnagant762
05-10-10, 04:08
Only thing I'm going to say is they were told not to fire at anything above the 6in. tall red line on all the walls, and the damn catwalk is 3 feet over that line. Safety briefings are not the time to be daydreaming.
what charge stupidity? just curious as what you would charge him with
Criminal negligence resulting in great bodily harm? I'm pretty sure Ariz has such laws.
If I'm cleaning a rifle in my home, and I have a ND and that bullet hit's my neighbors wall and hits his wife, should I not be charged with a crime? Even if my intentions weren't criminal?
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