View Full Version : KAC SR15, worth it?
I have several tier 2 & 3 AR 15s, LMT is my #1 . I want to buy a KAC SR15, a Colt 6920 and a BCM 16" mid-length. I am looking to replace the #1 slot with one of these 3. I really like the KAC (I like all 3 really, but only can afford 1 now). What does the KAC SR15 offer that the others dont? The cost of the SR15 is about the same as the BCM 16" & 6920 combined. Any advice :confused:
hitman1012
05-08-10, 15:11
You are not really comparing apples to apples though. This is the way I figure it. SR-15- $2000 and less brand new
6920- $1200 add an equal trigger- + 200 add the sopmod stock+ 200
add a rail DD Omega + 250 you are $ 1850 and still do not have the gas system the SR-15 has or the bolt. If you do not need all the extra stuff the Knights has, then yes it is not worth it. If you plan on adding that stuff down the road just get the Knights. At least this is how I justify my purchases!
Yes. If you look past the sticker price and start to break out the features that are included, it surpasses most other comparable rifles similarly equipped. And, it is a KAC.
Belmont31R
05-08-10, 16:39
As stated if you break the gun down part by part the KAC is actually the most economical.
If all you want is a bare bones but quality gun AND dont want to spend money on extras then the BCM or Colt is a better buy for you.
With the KAC you are getting a 500 rail system, 200 dollar rear buis, 200 dollar trigger, 200 dollar stock, a unique lower with some cool features, arguably the best AR bolt design on the market, etc. But you need to be happy with what it comes with or sell something off like trigger and/or stock. I replaced mine with a CTR, and sold the stock so I saved $100 off the price right there.
My SR15 is my favorite gun, and Im very happy with it.
Somewhere around here there's a post where I added up everything you get in the SR15 and compared it to an equal build from
BCM and the prices were almost identical, and they don't factor in the E3 bolt which isn't really something you can put a price on.
If the features of the SR15 are what you want/need then it is actually a bargain.
eternal24k
05-08-10, 19:03
Somewhere around here there's a post where I added up everything you get in the SR15 and compared it to an equal build from
BCM and the prices were almost identical, and they don't factor in the E3 bolt which isn't really something you can put a price on.
If the features of the SR15 are what you want/need then it is actually a bargain.
this brings up a good point, while the gun itself is a good deal I think you might be shooting yourself in the foot for future parts by having a proprietary system. But that isnt something for everybody, plenty of people are fine with LWRC and other rifles.
If I get one, I will certainly try and buy an extra BCG or atleast bolt with it.
Standard carrier will work. I would want three things:
1) spare extractor & springs
2) spare complete bolt
3) spare gas tube (it is a proprietary link)
FWIW, people like the Magpul boys are getting 20k+ rounds on the OE equipment reportedly.
This is kinda funny to me as I have a 6920 and a SR15. I still need to put more money into my Colt to make it feel and shoot like the KAC. The Colt without a doubt is a great rifle, but believe me, just get the KAC. You won't look back. ;)
Here is a good recent thread regarding the KAC SR15...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=52134
If I could only have one AR, it would be a SR15E3, by far the best out-of-the-box package currently on the market.
variablebinary
05-09-10, 05:24
The SR15 is sexy kit. I'm not entirely sure about the price, but the buyer is getting one solid carbine at the end of it all.
The SR15 is sexy kit. I'm not entirely sure about the price, but the buyer is getting one solid carbine at the end of it all.
What's there not to be sure of?
BCM BFH 16" Upper Receiver Group w/ Knight Armament Company URX II $1150 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Upper-Receiver-Group-KAC-p/bcm-urg-16%20bfh%20urx%2047.htm)
BCM Bolt Carrier Group (MPI) - Auto $140 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm)
BCM4 Lower Receiver Group $360 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Lower-Receiver-Groups-M4-AR15-s/117.htm)
LMT SOPMOD Stock $200 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/LMT-SOPMOD-STOCK-BLACK-p/lmt%20sopmod%20stock%20black.htm)
KAC Trigger P/N 98032 $320 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/KAC-Tactical-Trigger-p/kac%2098032%20trigger.htm)
KAC Flip-Up Rear Sight 200-600 Meter $200 (http://www.knightarmco.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=40)
that's $2,370 without the E3 features.
It can, be made similar (again without E3 or ambo) for less, quoting myself from here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39457&page=2)
Finally, when pricing these things you need to make sure you're comparing apples:apples. You need to start with a BCM BFH 16" w/ DD Lite 12.0 at $949 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-BFH-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh%20ddl12.htm) (note that BCM does sell their uppers with the KAC URX but it's $300 more (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Upper-Receiver-Group-KAC-p/bcm-urg-16%20bfh%20urx%2047.htm). From there you need to add a BCM BCG for $150 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm), a charging handle for $20+/-, and a set of MBUS (since we're going on the cheap) for $100. That gets you to $1220 for a complete upper.
Moving to the lower, you're going to start with a BCM at $330 without stock (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM), add an Emod for $120 (going for that "same function, reduced cost, the SOPMOD is another $80), and a Geissele AR15 Super Semi-Automatic Trigger for $170 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Geissele-AR15-Super-Semi-Automatic-Trigger-p/geissele%20ssa%20trigger%20spin.htm). That brings you to $620 for the complete lower and up to $1840 for the complete gun. Bearing in mind that you still aren't getting the E3 features.
I found a KAC SR15 listed on Gunsamerica for $2200, which is a $350 premium over the package above. What you're getting for that premium is the E3 bolt features, the ambi lower controls, and what is probably a lighter package overall. Put a set of Troy BUIS and the SOPMOD stock on the BCM and you narrow that gap even more.
variablebinary
05-09-10, 06:48
What's there not to be sure of?
The value is not the issue. It's the sticker shock and if I am willing to drop $2300 on an AR15
I was just holding an SR15 the other day. I was instantly enamored with it. Since, I'm been evaluating firearms to ditch to help fund acquiring one.
The value is not the issue. It's the sticker shock and if I am willing to drop $2300 on an AR15
I was just holding an SR15 the other day. I was instantly enamored with it. Since, I'm been evaluating firearms to ditch to help fund acquiring one.
Well, like I said, it's only a good value if it combines features that you want. While I absolutely love the gun, I've gone back to a more minimalist approach on my personal guns and so the SR15 would only sit in the safe if I bought one.
Thanks everyone for the input. Guess Im unsure about filet mignon because everyday I eat hamburger, seems I dont know what I am missing. You make a great point with the proprietary parts that should be bought & stored for future replacement. Thanks for the links, I still have more articles to read but I think this might be the year of the SR15.
Belmont31R
05-09-10, 10:24
The value is not the issue. It's the sticker shock and if I am willing to drop $2300 on an AR15
I was just holding an SR15 the other day. I was instantly enamored with it. Since, I'm been evaluating firearms to ditch to help fund acquiring one.
A few places are selling them at $1999 now. With shipping, and my dealer transfer fee it was less than 2100 OTD.
I asked the question a while ago but never got an answer. I know a standard AR15 bolt cycles just fine in the E3 barrel ext, and Im wondering if a standard bolt would then be able to fire just fine too. Curios of KAC ever has done any testing on this.
I dont even like shooting my other ARs since I got my SR15s.
They are worth it.
A few places are selling them at $1999 now. With shipping, and my dealer transfer fee it was less than 2100 OTD.
I asked the question a while ago but never got an answer. I know a standard AR15 bolt cycles just fine in the E3 barrel ext, and Im wondering if a standard bolt would then be able to fire just fine too. Curios of KAC ever has done any testing on this.
Are you sure about that? I was under the impression the CARRIER was a standard one with the bolt being proprietary...
Also, arent the cam pins enlarged on the SR15's? Would this prevent the use of a standard AR carrier?
Belmont31R
05-09-10, 12:57
Are you sure about that? I was under the impression the CARRIER was a standard one with the bolt being proprietary...
Also, arent the cam pins enlarged on the SR15's? Would this prevent the use of a standard AR carrier?
No the bolt carrier is the same as a standard AR15. The cam pin, and bolt are the proprietary parts. The cam pin is smaller diameter where it goes into the bolt so the bolt is actually thicker. One of the big weak points in the standard bolt is the cam pin cut out area so obviously having it thicker with the E3 bolt will reduce the chance of failure. The 2nd major weakness is in the lugs on the bolt itself. The E3's lugs are rounded which adds additional strength.
What I was talking about using a standard bolt in the E3 barrel extension. I put a standard BCG in mine, and it certainly cycles just fine. I was wondering if KAC or anyone else ever tested this so a standard bolt can be used if absolutely needed. Im not about to guinea pig a 2k gun but I thought maybe KAC got a hair up the butt, and shot a standard bolt in any of their testing.
Not compatible , will not work. E3 bolt assy ,cam pin,firing pin and bbl extension are only compatible with each other .
RetreatHell
05-09-10, 19:01
Without question, I feel the KAC SR-15 E3 is worth every penny. Other than all it comes with out of the box, one of the best things about the SR-15 IMHO is how friggin' light it is when outfitted with the necessary accessories (in my case an aimpoint T-1, Surefire X300, MS2 sling and KAC handstop [now replaced with Larue FUG per my personal preference]).
The second best thing is how smooth the recoil (or lack thereof) is, especially when you add a muzzle brake to the carbine (doesn't need to be a Triple Tap brake by any means, a PWS FSC556 will certainly do the job, but I do love the TTB). I've yet to find any other carbine that recoils as smooth as the SR-15, nor one that I can fire as fast and completely maintain accuracy.
There's only 2 things I can think of that suck about the SR-15. The first is that since the barrel is so darn thin, if you're maintaining a very high rate of fire, especially in carbine classes, the rail gets so hot (even with the XTM rail covers I use) that it's hard to hold onto it with your bare support hand. In the summertime it's even worse. However, I personally consider that negative aspect to be completely voided by the fact that the gun is so damn lightweight. It's a give and take, and the extra heat is completely worth it IMHO. I just pull a Michael Jackson and wear a single glove on my support hand. People will give you shit about it until you outshoot the hell out of them... that tends to shut them up quickly:)
The other downside is the QD sockets in the lower. They're worthless. If you utilize them, they WILL cause the sling/sling swivel to get in the way of your thumb when activating the safety. And they unfortunately block the "ears" of the Magpul ASAP receiver end plate, causing you to have to cut the ears off in order to install one (thanks Titleist!;)). It's one of those things that sound great in theory, but fail in reality. If they could somehow magically be a little further back, they would kick serious ass. It's actually frustrating to me that they didn't work out for me, because I think the concept is really cool. Oh well.
Anyhoo, as with the heat issue, the rear QD issue (once again, IMHO) is voided out by the fact that it's SO lightweight and SO smooth to shoot.
Oh BTW, did I already mention it's light and smooth to shoot with hardly any recoil??:D
Here she is on the scale:
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv219/RetreatHell/KAC%20SR-15%20E3/DSCF1014.jpg
Compared to a 10.5" SBR I had at one time. Less than a 1 ounce difference, pretty crazy:
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv219/RetreatHell/KAC%20SR-15%20E3/DSCF0999.jpg
I will be wearing this shirt to my next Magpul carbine class. **** yeah:cool::
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv219/RetreatHell/SR-15%20Canon/IMG_7898.jpg
Lightness is goodness.
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6100/p3010027.jpg
Im thinking about taking the heat shield out..... But that might be going a little crazy on lightening it.
Magic_Salad0892
05-10-10, 02:55
The KAC SR-15 E3 and the LWRCi M6A3 (a KAC with a piston, and without the ambidextrous lower receiver, in my opinion.) are the best AR-15 rifles on the market, IMHO. Don't listen to anybody who says otherwise.
If you have the money, the KAC will see you through a shitstorm.
ETA: I made this post before I knew better - months ago.
The LWRCi doesn't even compare.
Are any of the sling swivel sockets rotation-limited?
wicked_police
05-29-10, 02:51
I got rid of most of my other AR's, including a Colt 6920 once I got my SR15. I love the gun, and plan on getting another one or 2 if funds permit.
I added a Magpul MIAD grip, UBR stock, Nightforce 1-4 in LaRue mount, and LaRue FUG(and Vickers sling).
Just need to put on a brake and I'm finished.
No Bananas
05-29-10, 08:14
Not compatible , will not work. E3 bolt assy ,cam pin,firing pin and bbl extension are only compatible with each other .
Can we order these parts from Knights to get spares?
At a recent class I attended a SR-15 E3 didn't go beyond first training day due to multiple FTF. I didn't dwell on that with owner, and I am only assuming that mags or ammo were not at fault since the same ammo and mags worked perfectly fine in his back-up gun.
I think that Titleist here also had initial problems with his E3.
This is certainly not a statement of overall reliability of these rifles en masse, but more of philosophical question that I've reflected on since getting into 1911 field. You have all those semi-custom brands that go for 2-2.5K apiece. Making a full size 1911 to run 100% with good ammo and mags is not an art, it is actually almost formulaic. Yet we hear report of those expensive pistols fail, or ship with broken parts etc. This only tells me that the extra 1-1.5K (over basic pistol) is not spend first and foremost on making sure that feed ramp is right, extractor tension is correct, chamber is up to spec etc, but on fit and finish and feature set etc.
I can't help but see some similarity here. KAC's is a beautiful rifle with great feature set. I actually think that the price is a very good deal given the features. The question is whether we should expect every specimen of 2.2K rifles run 100%, or accept a position "everything man-made will fail at times".
At a recent class I attended a SR-15 E3 didn't go beyond first training day due to multiple FTF.
It could certainly be a weapon issue, it could be ammunition or user issues as well. The problem with second hand info is that we will never know.
Any idea what ammo he was using?
It could certainly be a weapon issue, it could be ammunition or user issues as well. The problem with second hand info is that we will never know.
Any idea what ammo he was using?
Stickman, your points are well taken. I should've asked about ammo, but didn't. The fellow was a very solid shooter. AI at that class was very experienced with platform, and he ran that rifle through series of checks without much answers.
The most convincing point to me is that the same shooter shot the same ammo using the same mags through a different rifle for the remaining two days of class without problems.
Your point on second hand info is well taken too; since I've witnessed that with my own eyes and not read it somewhere I feel it is not unethical for me to mention that. The owner of a gun is not a member here and he hasn't posted a complete AAR. If he chooses to do so, I'll either hyperlink it or quote it. Perhaps, he is in communications with KAC. I am sure that this issue would be resolved by owner and KAC; I only hope that we will have some info on that as it certainly attracted attention of instructors and students of that class as well as members of a board frequented by the owner.
Belmont31R
05-29-10, 11:34
Stickman, your points are well taken. I should've asked about ammo, but didn't. The fellow was a very solid shooter. AI at that class was very experienced with platform, and he ran that rifle through series of checks without much answers.
The most convincing point to me is that the same shooter shot the same ammo using the same mags through a different rifle for the remaining two days of class without problems.
Your point on second hand info is well taken too; since I've witnessed that with my own eyes and not read it somewhere I feel it is not unethical for me to mention that. The owner of a gun is not a member here and he hasn't posted a complete AAR. If he chooses to do so, I'll either hyperlink it or quote it. Perhaps, he is in communications with KAC. I am sure that this issue would be resolved by owner and KAC; I only hope that we will have some info on that as it certainly attracted attention of instructors and students of that class as well as members of a board frequented by the owner.
Do you know how many rounds he had through the gun before attending this class? Or if the gun worked fine before, and just started having issues?
No I don't. Visually rifle looked very new, no scratches etc. The owner was, obviously, disappointed and it didn't feel right to bug him with questions to satisfy my curiosity.
As I said, if I hear anything I'll quote it here. At this point just treat it as mere report that one sample of SR-15 didn't run well when mags and ammo seemingly weren't to blame.
wicked_police
05-29-10, 12:12
My gun hasn't been trouble free either, but it was easy to figure the reason after trying different ammo and some msg'ing with Kevin.
Last year at CFSAC, I let the guys from Aimpoint use my SR15 and SBR for live fire demos. They were using old Canadian Forces 556 ammo. The SBR worked, but the SR15 was short-stroking on the ejection cycle.
Out of a couple mags with that ammo, I had 2 malfunctions. All other ammo I've run though the gun has been flawless. I didn't bother trying to diagnose further, I just stopped using that ammo in the gun. So the little bit of that stuff I have left is either going to be run in my SBR, or sold off.
Some people will probably say that an expensive AR should run anything you feed it. I don't necessarily agree. It's been flawless with every other type of ammo, so I'm very happy.
I know what ammo I put in it, and I don't think I'm going to get into a situation where I have to scavenge old issue ammo from the CF, so it's all good to me.
Belmont31R
05-29-10, 12:40
My gun hasn't been trouble free either, but it was easy to figure the reason after trying different ammo and some msg'ing with Kevin.
Last year at CFSAC, I let the guys from Aimpoint use my SR15 and SBR for live fire demos. They were using old Canadian Forces 556 ammo. The SBR worked, but the SR15 was short-stroking on the ejection cycle.
Out of a couple mags with that ammo, I had 2 malfunctions. All other ammo I've run though the gun has been flawless. I didn't bother trying to diagnose further, I just stopped using that ammo in the gun. So the little bit of that stuff I have left is either going to be run in my SBR, or sold off.
Some people will probably say that an expensive AR should run anything you feed it. I don't necessarily agree. It's been flawless with every other type of ammo, so I'm very happy.
I know what ammo I put in it, and I don't think I'm going to get into a situation where I have to scavenge old issue ammo from the CF, so it's all good to me.
Other countries NATO ammo tends be much weaker than US NATO ammo. We had some British ammo for training in the brown cans and were specifically told not to use it in combat loads because its known to not reliably cycle US weapons.
For range use I almost always use M193 5.56 pressure ammo, and have not had any short-stroking issues. I had a few problems with my SR15 at first with not locking the bolt back but that was with 20rd mags that Ive used a lot, 223 spec ammo, and the springs are pretty worn. I had it happen a couple times with a couple of my other AR's, too. Its not done it with PMAG's, and 556 ammo. Ive got about 10k rounds through mine so far, and its been a joy to shoot.
I've got less than 400 rds through mine so far. All M193 Centurian or Hornandy 55gr Practice TAP. No problems so far.
Scott66Black
05-29-10, 16:40
I can't wait till my KAC /Magpul Rifle gets here so I can see if it's worth the money!!
RetreatHell
05-29-10, 16:54
When using a particular batch of Wolf 55gr ammo, I had some short stroking issues that resulted in a few failures to feed with my SR-15. It would very weakly eject the spent casings, and would randomly short stroke and I'd get a "click" instead of a "bang" on an empty chamber. No biggie, I just switched to my PMC 55gr, which a lot of people believe to be pretty weak ammo, and it was fine after that.
So it's definitely possible he was using weak ammo that would cycle properly in his SR-15, but when he used the same ammo in his other carbine that (most likely) had a larger gas port, it cycled fine in that one.
When the Assistant Instructor tried troubleshooting, did he use the shooter's ammo or did he insert one of his personal mags with his personal ammo and attempt to fire off a magazine?
If I was told correctly by someone I trust much more than most, the SR-15 has a slightly smaller gas port, which (among a few other things like the longer than mid-length gas system and E3 bolt) causes it to recoil much less and smoother than other 16" carbines, even other 16" mid-length gas systems. So if you're running VERY weak ammo through it, it could have some issues. But personally, out of all the ammo I've fired through mine, I only had problems with that one batch of Wolf 55gr ammo.
I've only fired a little under 3,000 rounds through my SR-15 E3. But just a few weeks after I bought it, with only around 250 rounds fired from the bench at my local range, I ran it through my first carbine course. This was last August and it was hot as hell out! I ran my SR-15 hard as **** in that 2-day class and fired around 1,000 rounds total (I had to sit out a few drills to hydrate and avoid heat exhaustion because my lower body cannot sweat so my upper body sweats twice as much). The gun would already be so hot just from the sun alone, requiring me to wear gloves before I even fired it. And I was firing extremely rapid during the drills, thanks to the crazy soft recoil and triple tap brake which allowed me to fire so fast and maintain much better accuracy than my fellow students who were firing at half the rate I was.
Needless to say, my new SR-15 completely won me over that weekend and I was simply blown away by its performance in such a hot and moderately dusty environment.
I experienced problems with my SR15 E3 also. I'll preface it by saying that I had not shot an AR in several years before I purchased it and had high expectations based on KAC's reputation. Prior to that I shot a Colt A2 in IPSC extensively and owned a couple of Colt Class III guns, so I was not a complete stranger to the AR platform.
What I liked most was how light it was and secondly the full ambi controls. It was nice to be able to have alternate methods of operation. The ability to mount the sling to the lower receiver I thought was a great idea until I tried it and found that it interfered with the operation of the selector switch most of the time. OK, so use the other side of the control, problem solved.
Prior to a carbine class I went and sighted it in and ran about 350~400 rounds through it to confirm function. During sighting, I noticed to get a zero, I ended up cranking the windage almost all the way to the right, approximately 3/4 of the way between center and the outside ear. Thought this was a bit excessive. Called KAC multiple times and never received an answer.
Borrowed a RDS and had to adjust it about 60 clicks windage to get it to hit near the target. Granted the Aimpoint had been sighted on another weapon, but that sure seems like a long way off to me.
During the carbine class, and after about 7~800 rounds, it started to not seat a magazine. I was using the 30rd PMAG's that had been completely reliable during my testing phase. Of the fifteen I had with me, not a single one would seat and lock. Open bolt, closed bolt made no difference. I started down loading and found that it would finally seat and lock when the round count was down to about 20~21 and only on a open bolt. So I switched to USGI, loaded them to 30rds and they worked perfectly, open or closed bolt. The PMAG's work just fine in any other AR I've tried since then, always loaded to 30rds. Contacted KAC, no response.
Tried to buy a spare bolt and carrier assembly and other spares, again met with a lack of response from KAC. As in no response to several emails and phone calls.
So is it worth the price of admission? Yes, but a qualified yes. Based on the sum of the parts, it is a value at $2K. Would I trust it to run 100%, 100% of the time? Ninety percent of the time? Not based on my experience. I never tested to failure the USGI magazines trying to replicate the PMAG "issue", and I'm not convinced that it was a PMAG "failure". Obviously there was something that the SR15 was not happy with during the carbine class. But I'm baffled why the SR15 would work with USGI magazines and the PMAG's would work in other AR's. Even after an extensive cleaning, the SR15 continued to dislike the PMAG's (including the 5 I tried, brand new, straight out of the bag) unless downloaded, but it was happy with the USGI magazines. Even old, non-green follower mags loaded to 30rds, seated, locked and cycled.
I've since sold it and moved on to a Colt 6933 SBR (11.5"), shot what ammunition I had left over from the carbine class, used the same PMAG's and never once experienced any of the problems I had with the SR15.
Belmont31R
05-29-10, 19:01
When using a particular batch of Wolf 55gr ammo, I had some short stroking issues that resulted in a few failures to feed with my SR-15. It would very weakly eject the spent casings, and would randomly short stroke and I'd get a "click" instead of a "bang" on an empty chamber. No biggie, I just switched to my PMC 55gr, which a lot of people believe to be pretty weak ammo, and it was fine after that.
So it's definitely possible he was using weak ammo that would cycle properly in his SR-15, but when he used the same ammo in his other carbine that (most likely) had a larger gas port, it cycled fine in that one.
When the Assistant Instructor tried troubleshooting, did he use the shooter's ammo or did he insert one of his personal mags with his personal ammo and attempt to fire off a magazine?
If I was told correctly by someone I trust much more than most, the SR-15 has a slightly smaller gas port, which (among a few other things like the longer than mid-length gas system and E3 bolt) causes it to recoil much less and smoother than other 16" carbines, even other 16" mid-length gas systems. So if you're running VERY weak ammo through it, it could have some issues. But personally, out of all the ammo I've fired through mine, I only had problems with that one batch of Wolf 55gr ammo.
I've only fired a little under 3,000 rounds through my SR-15 E3. But just a few weeks after I bought it, with only around 250 rounds fired from the bench at my local range, I ran it through my first carbine course. This was last August and it was hot as hell out! I ran my SR-15 hard as **** in that 2-day class and fired around 1,000 rounds total (I had to sit out a few drills to hydrate and avoid heat exhaustion because my lower body cannot sweat so my upper body sweats twice as much). The gun would already be so hot just from the sun alone, requiring me to wear gloves before I even fired it. And I was firing extremely rapid during the drills, thanks to the crazy soft recoil and triple tap brake which allowed me to fire so fast and maintain much better accuracy than my fellow students who were firing at half the rate I was.
Needless to say, my new SR-15 completely won me over that weekend and I was simply blown away by its performance in such a hot and moderately dusty environment.
I believe the SR15 is tuned to run with M855 which of course is a 556 pressure load. A lot of companies tend to put huge gas ports on their barrels so they run with the weakest of ammo. The problem this causes its lots of recoil with full pressure ammo but then people can come on a board and brag about how they XYZ gun "eats everything".
FWIW I also had a lot of short cycling problems with Wolf in a Colt 6921 which has a correct sized gas port.
Belmont31R
05-29-10, 19:05
I experienced problems with my SR15 E3 also.
SNIP
Sorry to hear you got what sounds like a lemon gun, and that KAC was not responsive. Im glad mine runs perfectly as its my favorite gun to shoot.
Scott66Black
05-29-10, 19:06
Man, I hope mine doesn't have that issue. I'm Hoping to run it through a Magpul class this year.
hitman1012
05-29-10, 20:16
Every company can put out something that has a hiccup or two. But, I am starting to love my SR15's more and more all the time. I went out today and ran some drills with the SR-15 and my Noveske. Neither missed a beat and shot great. But, the Knights is noticeably smoother. I mean by a good bit. It shows when you engage multiple targets with quick shots. Trust my I love my Noveske's and they are awesome but the SR-15 is too. I am actually torn between selling off another Noveske and picking up another SR. So, in my opinion they worth every penny.
When using a particular batch of Wolf 55gr ammo, I had some short stroking issues that resulted in a few failures to feed with my SR-15. It would very weakly eject the spent casings, and would randomly short stroke and I'd get a "click" instead of a "bang" on an empty chamber. No biggie, I just switched to my PMC 55gr, which a lot of people believe to be pretty weak ammo, and it was fine after that.
So it's definitely possible he was using weak ammo that would cycle properly in his SR-15, but when he used the same ammo in his other carbine that (most likely) had a larger gas port, it cycled fine in that one.
If I was told correctly by someone I trust much more than most, the SR-15 has a slightly smaller gas port, which (among a few other things like the longer than mid-length gas system and E3 bolt) causes it to recoil much less and smoother than other 16" carbines, even
Paul, I don't know what ammo Mike used to troubleshoot that rifle, but what you're describing is most likely what was happening with that rifle.
Obvious argument here is whether smoother action should take precedence over reliable functioning with wide range of ammo. I am not sure why we get into dichotomous philosophy here "small gas port vs huuuge gas port". How about "just right gas port"? My BCM and MSTN have had zero malfunctions and shoot very smoothly, and, conversely, people take high shooter in classes using all kinds of rifles so smooth action may not be that important.
Every company can put out something that has a hiccup or two...
That's the essense of a question. Is there a price point for a product after which we should expect no hiccups at all? Is it an individual decision, or should there be some industry or community standard?
My personal opinion that at 2000+ bucks a rifle should first and foremost run reliably across wide variety of ammo - even underpowered one - because, remember, just recently we were happy to get any ammo and whatever we have now is still sparce and overpriced; feature set and subtleties such as smooth action come after that. Others, obviously, may disagree.
Belmont31R
05-29-10, 22:09
Paul, I don't know what ammo Mike used to troubleshoot that rifle, but what you're describing is most likely what was happening with that rifle.
Obvious argument here is whether smoother action should take precedence over reliable functioning with wide range of ammo. I am not sure why we get into dichotomous philosophy here "small gas port vs huuuge gas port". How about "just right gas port"? My BCM and MSTN have had zero malfunctions and shoot very smoothly, and, conversely, people take high shooter in classes using all kinds of rifles so smooth action may not be that important.
That's the essense of a question. Is there a price point for a product after which we should expect no hiccups at all? Is it an individual decision, or should there be some industry or community standard?
My personal opinion that at 2000+ bucks a rifle should first and foremost run reliably across wide variety of ammo - even underpowered one - because, remember, just recently we were happy to get any ammo and whatever we have now is still sparce and overpriced; feature set and subtleties such as smooth action come after that. Others, obviously, may disagree.
That depends on the shooter. For the record Ive shot quite a few 223 loads out of my gun, and not had issues. I don't really think "potential" problems with really weak ammo is the rifles fault. Simply put the AR was designed in the 1st place as a military gun shooting military ammo. Today the commercial AR is basically the same thing sans the FA trigger group. If you are shooting super cheap weak ammo you are operating the gun outside of its design. Just like I mentioned earlier we were shooting Brit ammo for training, and was told it could cause reliability problems so it was training only.
I personally like the fact the gun runs so smooth even with 556 ammo. I dont have a problem shooting quality 556 stuff, and try to stay away from the Wolf type loads that have caused problems for me even with mil spec uppers.
If someone wants a gun to run whatever cheap weak ammo they can through their gun there are plenty of other options that come with oversized gas ports. While someone may consider it a plus their gun can run this weak stuff they are going to pay for it if they ever shoot full pressure 556 loads.
As regards to a potential problem rifle if its man made it can fail. The price should mean it happens less but certainly not that it never happens. In fact I view part of a higher price as meaning if I do have a problem Im going to get taken better care of than if I bought the cheapest product I could get. Just like if I bought a BMW Id expect better deal service than from Honda.
Last....KAC is not the only manufacturer to recommend 556 loads. I believe BCM has said the same thing about their 14.5" middy.
...
That's the essense of a question. Is there a price point for a product after which we should expect no hiccups at all?
....
And the argument has been stated that if you buy a Colt or other upper price range rifle and add the extras that KAC has as standard (SOCOM stock, rail, etc) on the SR15, that you end up at the same, or near the same price. In other words the basic rifle stripped of all the extras should perform equally well. If it doesn't, then where's the value?
That depends on the shooter. For the record Ive shot quite a few 223 loads out of my gun, and not had issues. I don't really think "potential" problems with really weak ammo is the rifles fault. Simply put the AR was designed in the 1st place as a military gun shooting military ammo. Today the commercial AR is basically the same thing sans the FA trigger group. If you are shooting super cheap weak ammo you are operating the gun outside of its design. Just like I mentioned earlier we were shooting Brit ammo for training, and was told it could cause reliability problems so it was training only.
I personally like the fact the gun runs so smooth even with 556 ammo. I dont have a problem shooting quality 556 stuff, and try to stay away from the Wolf type loads that have caused problems for me even with mil spec uppers.
If someone wants a gun to run whatever cheap weak ammo they can through their gun there are plenty of other options that come with oversized gas ports. While someone may consider it a plus their gun can run this weak stuff they are going to pay for it if they ever shoot full pressure 556 loads.
As regards to a potential problem rifle if its man made it can fail. The price should mean it happens less but certainly not that it never happens. In fact I view part of a higher price as meaning if I do have a problem Im going to get taken better care of than if I bought the cheapest product I could get. Just like if I bought a BMW Id expect better deal service than from Honda.
Last....KAC is not the only manufacturer to recommend 556 loads. I believe BCM has said the same thing about their 14.5" middy.
Belmont, this is a very good example why threads ("value-related") don't really have an answer because values are individual. Your position is well-stated and if one takes mil-spec 5.56 ammo as the only standard, then there is little to argue about.
My position is that my 14.5 ML BCM (aftermarket cut-down) has shot Wolf, PMC, UMC, S&B, Black Hills, Hornady practice, Hornady TAP, and Hornady T-2. I've had zero hiccups with weaker ammo and I am not sure what price I am paying with hotter loads. Appropriate grip and stance kept rifle on target with any of those loads, and if my rifle gets battered sooner - I am fine with that; again, individual preference.
BTW - unverified data so I take no responsiblity - but I am told that Wolf is loaded to SAAMI specs. Anybody knows differently?
I agree that all man maid will fail; I don't agree with defective products leaving the factory. I agree with you that higher price should mean better CS. However, I'd also want to have better QC. So if their high pricing in fact means higher level of QC and each rifle passes it, then perhaps I am not in touch with reality. Because, the way I see it, if QC is stringent and each piece of product passes it, how would lemons happen then? Unless there are no lemons and then the whole discussuin is pointless.
No. 6, I am not sure I understand your post.
Belmont31R
05-29-10, 23:49
Belmont, this is a very good example why threads ("value-related") don't really have an answer because values are individual. Your position is well-stated and if one takes mil-spec 5.56 ammo as the only standard, then there is little to argue about.
My position is that my 14.5 ML BCM (aftermarket cut-down) has shot Wolf, PMC, UMC, S&B, Black Hills, Hornady practice, Hornady TAP, and Hornady T-2. I've had zero hiccups with weaker ammo and I am not sure what price I am paying with hotter loads. Appropriate grip and stance kept rifle on target with any of those loads, and if my rifle gets battered sooner - I am fine with that; again, individual preference.
BTW - unverified data so I take no responsiblity - but I am told that Wolf is loaded to SAAMI specs. Anybody knows differently?
I agree that all man maid will fail; I don't agree with defective products leaving the factory. I agree with you that higher price should mean better CS. However, I'd also want to have better QC. So if their high pricing in fact means higher level of QC and each rifle passes it, then perhaps I am not in touch with reality. Because, the way I see it, if QC is stringent and each piece of product passes it, how would lemons happen then? Unless there are no lemons and then the whole discussion is pointless.
No. 6, I am not sure I understand your post.
Im not exactly sure what KAC's QC is on the entire gun but I noticed the most amount of use when I opened the box on mine than any other gun Ive ever bought.
And yeah that's why I opened my post with it depends on the shooter. There are plenty of people out there that see a need to be able to shoot the weakest ammo out there. Also why I said there are plenty of other guns on the market.
SAAMI spec is not the spec the AR was designed to be used with. My opinion is simply that it doesn't really bother me if a "mil spec" gun will not run on "non mil spec" ammo. Just like if I loaded my car which requires premium with regular, and I got issues, Id blame the gas not the car.
To be blunt...in the end I don't really care if someone doesn't like the SR15 because it may have issues with weak ammo. That person is not using the gun as designed or intended. If someone is using the gun within the intended limits, and they still have an issue then the manufacturer should fix the gun as quickly as possible. Ive not seen any QC issues out of the ordinary with the SR15, and several shooters who's opinion I value who shoot the gun have said above average comments about it. One of the reasons I bought mine in the 1st place. I think in the end there would be a lot more reliability in general with the AR platform if companies making these guns stuck to the mil standard (or exceeded it), people kept up with maintenance, and use quality mil spec ammo. Another thing to keep in mind in these types of boards is generally only the "issues" come up, and not the positives. We can have a 5 page thread about one guy who had an problem with a gun we dont know the cause of, and for this one problem there are 20...maybe 50 guys with the same gun who have had nothing but reliable service. Ive certainly got guns and combos of stuff Ive never mentioned on here. The main point is to ask questions, and seek help. You find much more "problem" threads than "this has worked for me". Its not interesting to read about some XYZ gun that hasn't had a problem. Just like with military guns some incident leads to some questioning about the entire platforms reliability such as the battle in Afghanistan with multiple individual weapons. Yet nothing is mentioned of such basic principles of maintenance, cleaning, and usage on those weapons. It means nothing if someone has issues at 7k rounds yet fail to mention they've never replaced the gas rings, recoil spring, cleaned the weapon, etc.
hitman1012
05-30-10, 08:45
Belmount, Good post. I do not get it why it is such a big deal if Wolf ammo has issues. I personally do not shot Wolf so this is a non issue for me as well. The logic is if this ammo shoots out of whatever other brand gun then the KAC is inferior. To me that is not necessarily the case. It would be different if there were issues with alot of different types of ammo. I think some people have these end of the world scenarios were they are scavenging for ammo and god forbid they only have WOLf ammo then the gun is useless. So, the KAC is not the right gun to have! Since this is one and million scenario and you can buy any type of ammo off the shelf and feed it good stuff why is this such a concern. I guess I am just confused.
Belmount, Good post. I do not get it why it is such a big deal if Wolf ammo has issues. I personally do not shot Wolf so this is a non issue for me as well. The logic is if this ammo shoots out of whatever other brand gun then the KAC is inferior. To me that is not necessarily the case. It would be different if there were issues with alot of different types of ammo. I think some people have these end of the world scenarios were they are scavenging for ammo and god forbid they only have WOLf ammo then the gun is useless. So, the KAC is not the right gun to have! Since this is one and million scenario and you can buy any type of ammo off the shelf and feed it good stuff why is this such a concern. I guess I am just confused.
I don't think it is really an issue of end-of-the-world thing for most people. I don't shoot Wolf regularly too, but being able to do so made a difference in ability to attend Magpul class in early 2009 when no other ammo could be had.
I agree, Belmont's post covers it well. I think in a course of this discussion we established that KAC gas system is set up for mil-spec standards, after all, mil contracts have been KAC's priority for a long time. Therefore, it is entirely possible that KAC won't cycle reliably with lower-powered ammo - not necessarly Wolf alone since Wolf appears to be loaded to commercial SAAMI specs (which, as Belmont pointed out, are not as hot as mil specs). This may mean absolutely nothing to some people like majority of folks in this thread, or mean a lot to others like me. That's all to it, I guess.
i couldn't tell you how many rounds I have through my SR15 E3, since I stopped keeping track of every round last year.
I love the configuration. It is the best AR I have owned, easily besting the Noveske/Magpul limited edition, 6920, BCM, etc. As a lefty, I especially like the ambi controls.
My major complaint is that accuracy is teh suq with my favorite ammo (prvi m193). 3-4" five-shot groups at 50 yards! It's kind of sickening. That said, it will shoot 1 hole groups with the 80g SMK handloads I use at the 600 yrd line for CMP/NRA High Power competition. Of course, those are expensive as balls and can't be magazine fed, so I had to compromise and shoot 75 and 77g handloads now, when I'd really prefer factory ammo.
I have seen a couple guns in my life like this that were ammo-sensitive, so I figure I just got unlucky. I may buy another one to see if my luck improves.
The gun has been reliable too, up until my last range session when 2 rnds of factory ammo failed to feed (PMAGs). Now i'm wondering if I have a problem or not.
I didn't make it to a carbine class yet this year due to work, but hopefully later in the fall I can give it a proper workout.
No Bananas
11-19-10, 07:14
Taliv,
How's the SR functioning? Any more issues?
This is a great thread! I am in the market for a 16" mid length and my local shoot straight had the KAC SR15 and LMT's (dont know the model number) similar mid length rifle in stock so I was able to handle both. I noticed a slight looseness between the upper and lower on the SR15. Is this common with all KAC rifles? I know ARs tend to loosen up after many rounds but thought it was strange that it already had play in it. The LMT felt much more solid but lacked the features I love about the KAC. Has anyone else been able to A /B the rifles. Also the LMT was about 500 bucks cheaper but shoot straight is pretty over priced as they wanted $2500 for the KAC and 2000 for the LMT
the other mid length I was considering was a BCM build but after the dust settles would be at the same price and wonder which would be the most reliable and accurate. I plan to mostly shoot the Federal .223 or X193 5.56 55 gr stuff as its pretty available and reasonably priced.
Thanks!!!!
Robb Jensen
11-19-10, 09:06
I have several tier 2 & 3 AR 15s, LMT is my #1 . I want to buy a KAC SR15, a Colt 6920 and a BCM 16" mid-length. I am looking to replace the #1 slot with one of these 3. I really like the KAC (I like all 3 really, but only can afford 1 now). What does the KAC SR15 offer that the others dont? The cost of the SR15 is about the same as the BCM 16" & 6920 combined. Any advice :confused:
Just warm up the CC and get a SR15, a Colt and a BCM. They're all great choices!
I have some SR15 uppers on order. Looking forward to trying it out.
variablebinary
11-20-10, 03:48
I have some SR15 uppers on order. Looking forward to trying it out.
The KAC lowers are kick ass.
I thought about just getting uppers at one point, but the complete guns are so much better
This is a great thread! I am in the market for a 16" mid length and my local shoot straight had the KAC SR15 and LMT's (dont know the model number) similar mid length rifle in stock so I was able to handle both. I noticed a slight looseness between the upper and lower on the SR15. Is this common with all KAC rifles? I know ARs tend to loosen up after many rounds but thought it was strange that it already had play in it. The LMT felt much more solid but lacked the features I love about the KAC. Has anyone else been able to A /B the rifles. Also the LMT was about 500 bucks cheaper but shoot straight is pretty over priced as they wanted $2500 for the KAC and 2000 for the LMT
the other mid length I was considering was a BCM build but after the dust settles would be at the same price and wonder which would be the most reliable and accurate. I plan to mostly shoot the Federal .223 or X193 5.56 55 gr stuff as its pretty available and reasonably priced.
Thanks!!!!
My SR15 has a little play between the upper and lower. Not enough to worry about however. I don't know if it is representative of all SR15s as I have handled some that had a tighter and some that had a more loose fit.
Magic_Salad0892
11-20-10, 18:13
My 11'' is a bit loose, the other two are about as tight as most Colts.
Which would be pretty tight, but a little play.
Integral flip up front sight on the URX rail has to be eliminated.
It prevents the mounting of a light at 12 oclock and I don't like the round hood of this front sight.
Lame.
This rail would be the best on the market if this was eliminated and the sling sockets were anti rotation.
Magic_Salad0892
11-20-10, 19:52
Integral flip up front sight on the URX rail has to be eliminated.
It prevents the mounting of a light at 12 oclock and I don't like the round hood of this front sight.
Lame.
This rail would be the best on the market if this was eliminated and the sling sockets were anti rotation.
Agreed.
Solution: Old URX rails?
I don't understand what prevents mounting a light on the 12. Please explain . Anti rotation has been incorporated on the new design but it will be a long time untill they hit the market . Once we get a low cost wrench going we may put out some standard industry midlengths . Don't really see a big market for that kind of stuff right now.
As far as gas port sizes go ..... Our guns are ported for a range of ammo , not just milspec. I would say that over ported guns will have just as much of a problem with hot loads as our guns have with weak loads ; especially suppressed. It's all a bit of a compromise . There is a tendency lately to go towards hotter ammo to get the velocities up in shorter bbls. I would say that I would have a hard time believing our gun will not run more than 90% of the ammo out there after it is broken in that runs reliably in any other gun.if you want to start bringing extractor spring replacement and suppressed fire into the mix I will put our gun up against any gun on the market for reliability . It is also not a custom gun, it is also almost entirely manufactured and assembled in our factory . We have been in the gun business for 20 something years and we are not going anywhere anytime soon. We are perhaps the largest US small arms manufacturing company owned and ran by a single person who you can call and talk to on the phone (on occasion) .
Say what you want about the SR-15 E3, I know exactly what the gun is capable of because we have fired them to destruction . I would put it up against any gun out there.
Magic_Salad0892
11-20-10, 20:25
III
''we may put out some standard industry midlengths''
Rail Systems or guns? A rifle in standard midlength would be a step backwards, IMHO. Your battle rifle gas tube is pure win, and is the smoothest I've ever shot.
I have a question, hopefully you can answer it. (I have a feeling that you wont, due to SHOT show being close. But it can't hurt.)
Will a factory 14.5'' E3 gun ever happen?
Thank you for all that you guys at KAC do. :)
I meant standard mid length URXs.
We are doing a mid length gas system, rifle length URX 14.5" SR-16 so if we get any gov't orders for it that might mean they could be available as a SR-15 SBR since we are going to start to sell factory SBRs. I guess that all depends on how well the first run of 11.5" guns sell. I feel the AR market in general ,right now is pretty saturated. I think whatever is not readily available will sell like hotcakes until they are in full production.
Magic_Salad0892
11-20-10, 20:42
I meant standard mid length URXs.
We are doing a mid length gas system, rifle length URX 14.5" SR-16 so if we get any gov't orders for it that might mean they could be available as a SR-15 SBR since we are going to start to sell factory SBRs. I guess that all depends on how well the first run of 11.5" guns sell. I feel the AR market in general ,right now is pretty saturated. I think whatever is not readily available will sell like hotcakes until they are in full production.
I very much appreciate the response. You just made my day.
When you say ''mid length'' do you mean standard mid length or KAC mid length?
Thanks, again.
Bolt_Overide
11-20-10, 22:44
I meant standard mid length URXs.
We are doing a mid length gas system, rifle length URX 14.5" SR-16 so if we get any gov't orders for it that might mean they could be available as a SR-15 SBR since we are going to start to sell factory SBRs. I guess that all depends on how well the first run of 11.5" guns sell. I feel the AR market in general ,right now is pretty saturated. I think whatever is not readily available will sell like hotcakes until they are in full production.
I know one guy that will buy atleast two of the factory SBR's when they are available...
Belmont31R
11-20-10, 23:12
I meant standard mid length URXs.
We are doing a mid length gas system, rifle length URX 14.5" SR-16 so if we get any gov't orders for it that might mean they could be available as a SR-15 SBR since we are going to start to sell factory SBRs. I guess that all depends on how well the first run of 11.5" guns sell. I feel the AR market in general ,right now is pretty saturated. I think whatever is not readily available will sell like hotcakes until they are in full production.
I want a SBR with 11.5 or 12.5 light weight CHF barrel, middy URX, 3T, middy URX, e3 bolt, 2 stage trigger, micro 300M and ambi lower.
Im not really interested in anything with a carbine hand guard.
The KAC lowers are kick ass.
I thought about just getting uppers at one point, but the complete guns are so much better
I'm not going to use sling points at that location and I don't need ambi as I have too much time and too many weapons that aren't ambi to learn a new manual of arms. Also the SOPMOD is too heavy for that barrel contour and there is no staking on the castle nut. I'm going to use a Colt lower on mine, the other is for my brother.
Magic_Salad0892
11-21-10, 04:07
I want a SBR with 11.5 or 12.5 light weight CHF barrel, middy URX, 3T, middy URX, e3 bolt, 2 stage trigger, micro 300M and ambi lower.
Im not really interested in anything with a carbine hand guard.
On the bright side, you'll get an 11.5'', but I think they have the carbine URX.
Mid Length URX could also be a possibility, from what I've seen in pictures.
I want a SBR with 11.5 or 12.5 light weight CHF barrel, middy URX, 3T, middy URX, e3 bolt, 2 stage trigger, micro 300M and ambi lower.
Im not really interested in anything with a carbine hand guard.
That's pretty much exactly what I would love to see available, but I could do without the TTB.
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
Army Chief
11-21-10, 08:51
Gentlemen,
This thread is actually from last May, and although we've appended some highly relevant information over the past few days, there are still a number of newer (and more highly developed) threads on the SR-15E3 located elsewhere on the boards.
The manner in which this one is indexed, and the amount of discussion it contains on ammunition sensitivities -- which, in my experience with the platform, is not an especially valid concern -- lead me to conclude that we would all be better served by continuing this elsewhere.
I too am keenly interested in upcoming SBR developments from KAC, as well as a number of their other ongoing projects, but in the interest of insuring that archived discussions follow a natural progression -- and present the latest information in a chronological sense -- this one is going to be closed. The initiation of new threads on some of the specific points of interest that have been discussed here within the past 48 hours is highly encouraged.
Thanks!
AC
EDIT: You are welcome to post new discussion HERE (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=821040#post821040).
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