View Full Version : "Why Glock, Why 9mm?"
Agree, disagree? :cool:
Why Glock, why 9mm? (http://www.optimalswat.com/content.php?r=208-Why-Glock-why-9mm)
By Jeff C
I am often asked "Why a Glock" and "Why 9mm"?
Since 1990 I have carried on duty Beretta, Sig, Smith & Wesson, H&K, Colt, Les Baer, Springfield Armory, Para Ord, Kimber, and Glock (there may be others, but those are the only models that I recall as I'm writing this article)
I have had the opportunity to shoot Styer, Taurus, Walther, S&W Sigma, S&W M&P, Wilson Combat, Ruger, CZ, Desert / Baby Eagle, STI / SVI, Browning HP, and several other pistols.
In the late 1990's I narrowed my handgun choices to 1911's and Glocks. Because it's what I shot best and what I felt most comfortable with.
Up until 2001 I had always been a fan of the .45acp, but felt comfortable with a .40cal. I had always felt that the 9mm was under powered.
I generally carried a 1911 on duty, but when it came to stressful shooting (ie. SWAT qual, Firearms Instructor's qual, etc) I would use a Glock because I felt more comfortable with it under stress. I found time and time again that I shot better with a Glock under stress. The Glock had the same trigger pull every time, the grip angle was perfect, no grip safeties to worry about in awkward positions, the size of the grip was just right, no safety levers, decockers, etc.
In 2001 I attended a two day tactical pistol course. As a test to myself to see which platform suited me better, I shot the first day of class with a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special (full size 1911) and the second day of class with a Glock 35 (the Glock 35 is Glock's Pratical / Tactical model and is almost the same size as a full size 1911). It was after this class of shooting 500 rounds per day through each gun, back to back, that I realized that I preferred the Glock platform by a wide margin.
I have been through several other training classes, matches, and training, and shot both guns and found that under stress, shooting one handed, shooting in awkward positions, shooting on the move, shooting while trying to perform other tasks other tasks, etc. that the Glock was easier for me to shoot and easier for me to get hits on target.
"Why the 9mm"? During a tactical pistol class several years ago, the instructor stated "Pistol bullets poke holes, rifle bullets tear sh*t up". The quote stuck in my mind for some time. I thought back to the effects different pistol rounds having on animals, victim's of shootings, and Officer involved shootings that I had seen personally and read about during my career. I couldn't think of a single shooting where the person or animal was shot with a 9mm and lived, but would have died if the round would have been a .40S&W or a .45acp. And I could not think of a single shooting where a person or animal was shot with a .40S&W or a .45acp and died, but would have survived if the round would have been a 9mm.
With 9mm being approximately half the price of .45acp, the recoil of 9mm being less than the .45acp, and knowing shot placement is much more important than caliber, it's not hard to understand why I switched over to 9mm. With one pistol platform in a single caliber it cuts costs when purchasing magazines, holsters, magazine pouches, gunsmithing gear, sights, and ammo. Supporting one platform and one caliber is much more cost effective than purchasing holsters, magazine pouches, magazines, ammo, etc. for several different platforms in several different calibers.
After the training class in 2001 (mentioned above) and knowing that I had use the Glock (instead of the 1911) for stressful shooting courses, I started to rethink my mentality on pistols and pistol calibers. I did some soul searching and realized that I disliked the 9mm for many years and favored the 1911 based on the hype I heard from other shooters and gun magazines ("Real shooters carry a 1911" ... "Real men carry .45's" ... etc).
Every time I had taken a pistol class, shot in a match, practiced at the range, etc, it solidified that I shot better under stressful conditions with a Glock. But I was carrying a pistol and caliber due to hype, not on what pistol and caliber suited me the best.
Choose the platform and caliber best suits you based on comfort, ergonomics, personal preferences, and what you shoot with the best. Don't get married to a platform or caliber just because you precieve it's cool or because you have a lot of money invested in your firearm or equipment.
lethal dose
05-10-10, 11:37
Good post. Thanks, Will.
Beat Trash
05-10-10, 11:54
Agree, disagree?
I agree.
I went through much the same soul searching as was done within the article. There is a lot to be said for consistency.
I have been an inter-city LEO for going on 18 years. I have seen people shot with just about every caliber handgun a person can steal. I have come to believe that the difference between the major defensive calibers (9mm vs. 40 vs. 45) is not nearly big of an issue as other factors such as a reliable platform, and shot placement.
I can shoot all three calibers well, using the same platform. But I can put rounds on target, under stress, better with a 9mm than with the other two.
So on my own time, I carry a 9mm (Glock or M&P). While at work I have to carry the issued pistol, which is a 9mm M&P. I'm ok with that one also.
That article got me started on where I'm at today as far a caliber. I posted all about it around a month ago.
That is one article that got me thinking about what I carry. Then combined with DocGKR ballistic info on modern Duty/SD loads I went with 9mm.
Given that I am on a strict budget I can train more with 9mm than I could with .45 or .40.
"Jeff C" is M4C Moderator USMC03.
It is an excellent article. I agree with it.
Lucky Strike
05-10-10, 13:59
Good article...i shoot 9mm but am still trying different platforms until i find the one that suits me best
All my serious carry handguns are Glock 9mms and S&W J frame .38s, for many of the same reasons.
"Jeff C" is M4C Moderator USMC03.
Yup. :cool:
Whenever I think 9mm vs caliber X I always think of the turtle vs the hare story.
It seems lots of guys (esp young guys or folks new to shooting) think they have to get the "biggest" caliber they can. They fall into the same trap as described in the OP ... the hype of how "weak" the 9mm is vs what they actually shoot better.
Will, if I remember correctly, you are a 1911 guy. What is your take on this?
Personally, for duty/SD carry, I am on my last gun (M&P45) until I completely switch over to all Glock 9mm's for the reasons stated in Jeff's article.
If the M&P works out for me (so far, so good) this may change. Time will tell.
Will, if I remember correctly, you are a 1911 guy. What is your take on this?
I'm still a 1911 guy and will remain so. You will note in terms of platform, Jeff is clear he personally finds he is best with the Glock platform, not that everyone should change to it. Ergo, he recommends carrying what you shoot best with. For him, that's a glock. For me, and many others, that's a 1911, no doubt about it. The ergonomics -or lack there of - the trigger, etc, of glocks is not for me.
Personally, for duty/SD carry, I am on my last gun (M&P45) until I completely switch over to all Glock 9mm's for the reasons stated in Jeff's article.
I'm more compelled by the 9mm choice then the platform debate and am still working that one out in my own head. Does slightly faster follow up shots offset slightly reduced terminal ballistics? I go back and forth on that one, and there are people with far more experience/knowledge in this area then I in this area who have given their opinions.
If the M&P works out for me (so far, so good) this may change. Time will tell.
Many who have forgotten more about guns in a day then I will ever know (e.g., Hilton Yam et al) are big fans of the M&P, so I wouldn't hesitate to consider one if a polymer DAO gun was on my list.
was watching some prison show ? forgot which one
the interviewer was asking him about prison stabbings and the little style knives they had compared to larger ones or something like that ?
the guy said well if you poke enough holes in a person their is no way even a doc can patch them up !
kinda rings true in a strange way
I used to be more worried about it ? and hear stories where people get shot and dont die ? makes me curious if another round might have killed them ?
but the other idea most of us train to get at least 3 rounds into a person to stop them but you hear about a person being shot once and they are down or 10x and they are not ? so its the old placement argument again which gets back to shoot what you shoot best I guess ?
good read though and I guess I agree with it :)
Just_Plain_T.
05-10-10, 15:19
Beyond how well you shoot, and what the price of 9mm is.
And that is capacity.
More and more, we are seeing cases of groups of assailants instead of the single thug on the street. Sure, a 7 round magazine is good enough for 1-2 guys with good shot placement, but what happens when more come? Or what if, God forbid, you're injured from the initial ambush and shot placement isn't quite up to what you usually can do?
It just makes sense to have the higher capacity 9mm over the low capacity .45. Now, 1911s are beautiful guns and I love them, but I know their limitations.
no arguement. I would feel just as secure w/ a glock 9mm but I'm just a fan of the 1911 & the .45....prefer the browning design and been playing with them for 20+ years.
I think confidence and being familiar with your sidearm are bedfellows to critical shot placement & have no desire to jump to a hi-cap as of today.
Good read.
USMC03 is a moderator here on M4C and for good reason. That post alone has probably saved me thousands of dollars chasing the latest fad in handguns and calibers. USMC03 has clearly used his experience as a former Marine and current LEO to determine what works in the real world.
Well said and well thought out. While I cannot begin to compare with the experience of many on this board I have to admit going down that road myself. At one time I was a 45 or nothing man and remember looking askew at the first Glocks I saw and used. Over 20 years have passed since then and my views have changed. I've come to embrace Glocks and also the 9mm. I fully agree with Jeff C.'s quote, "Choose the platform and caliber best suits you based on comfort, ergonomics, personal preferences, and what you shoot with the best". For me it has also proven to be the Glock 19.
Reminds me of a boss I had one time that alway said "a smart man can change his mind". :)
The same thoughts held true when I set out to purchase a full time carry gun. I picked the Glock 19 because I had a model 34 and I had a lot of magazines for it.
My agency definitely has a "bigger is better" mentality, especially since that for a long time we were stuck with 9mm/.38 and only the SWAT and SIS big boys could carry .45's. After the big North Hollywood bank shootout we could finally carry S&W .45's and I did exactly that for several years to fit in as a ghetto gunfighter as much as my own gun geekiness. When we could carry Glocks in 9/40/45 I went with a G21 and carried that until we had our well documented light strike failures. With my S&W4566 and G21 I had to train lots and lots to overcome to the various shortcomings of both guns.
So with no G21, various stories of Glock .40 kabooms, and DocGKR and others findings of pistol bullets all more or less being the same I decided to go with the classic G17/G19/G26 combo. I found I could shoot all of these guns almost effortlessly. The recoil control I developed shooting .45's lets me keep 3shot hammers on target with a G17. I could also hold onto the grip much easier than my G21, which was further proven when we got our G21's fixed but then we moved to the Fed HST+P ammo and it felt like my G21 wanted to jump out of my hand. Of course I could work harder to control it, but what about when I am shooting one handed, from a weird position, in the rain?
I finally realized I was fighting the other weapons systems to make them work. However, 9mm Glocks seem to work FOR me and that is all the difference in the world. I can spend my time training on getting good hits, tactics, and fighting bad guys instead of my own pistol.
However, there is a price to be paid for my choice. All new recruits and just about everyone who is switching to Glocks is going .40. Kabooms aside, I feel the .40 Glock has too sharp a recoil for minimal ballistic gain and less bullets to boot. So basically everyone either thinks I am weird or a wimp for carrying a 9mm so no more ghetto gunfighter image for me :(. Although luckily those that train with me and people in my unit can see how serious I take my shooting and don't question my choice.
Shoot what you can hit/fight with. More bullets are always better. I believe in ammunition :D
Dennis.
Heavy Metal
05-10-10, 18:39
I must say Jeff's pontifications sum up my thought on the matter nicely. G-19 and G17's for me.
The pistol that I carry most often is a Glock 19. Still, there are moments when I contemplate going with a larger caliber. I had an opportunity to take a class from Scott Reitz in 2007, and he was very clear that the 9mm was not a good round. He went on to say that the preferred cartridge in Metro was the .45 ACP. I noticed that he recently reiterated that position in the February 2010 issue of SWAT magazine. These types of things generally give me pause and allow me to consider my choices. So far, though, I still carry my Glock 19 more than any other.
glockshooter
05-10-10, 19:24
I have been using that principle since I began shooting handguns. I do however carry a HK P2000 in .40 now. I only do this because that grip angle, sight and mag release is the same as my issued duty weapon HK USP40. The only reason the P2000 is in .40 is we have a no tox range, and I can qualifiy with department ammo for free if it is in .40. Now I will like to add the gen4 Glock 17 I just bought has a much more similar grip angle, so a carry Glock is probably in the near future. There is even a rumor floating around that we will be making a switch to Glock for issued weapons. I can only hope.
Matt
devildogljb
05-10-10, 19:57
You have to love the glock its reliable and the 9mm round can be found pretty much every where and the price isnt bad compared to other rounds. I carry my glock 19 and i feel very comfortable knowing if i have to use it the 9mm round will get the job done. And theres always the statement it doesnt compare to a 45. I love my 1911 and the 45 round. But its all about shot placement, a shot to a vital area (ie. head) is a shot to a vital area no matter what size round your using.
I agree:
1: As a CCW'er like myself once the decision is made to shoot the only steps needed are to draw, point, press, repeat as needed, reholster. I don't need to worry(under stress) about adding flicking off the safety on the draw, hitting the grip safety properly in a possibly strange position/hold, and flicking the safety back on when holstering into the mix.
2: We know practice is paramount. In my AO 9mm practice ammo is about half the price of 45acp. I can now practice twice as much, that's a good thing.
3: Follow up speed and capacity, 9mm wins.
4: I shoot my 19 well and I am still getting even better.
5: Glocks are affordable, dead simple, tough and reliable.
6: I feel I could rely on 9mm to get the job done giving current offerings.
I used to be a 45 only guy with a 1911 as my ideal system. I still own a 1911(family heirloom) and a few other handguns that have been handed down through the family, but I dont shoot those any more. I focus 95% of my handgun shooting time on my carry Glock 19. I see no need to buy anymore handguns, save for maybe a spare 19 and a 34 just for fun.
S500N I know Scotty Reitz personally he is a good man who has been in harms way more than a few times. I don't always agree with him but if I had to go in harms way I'd be happy if he was along !
I only carry 38's, 9's, and 45acp's these days . I tend to agree that all handgun rounds are marginal at best , but still believe bigger is better overall. There are just so many conditions that no choice is the "right" choice for everyone. Back in the day if I KNEW or had an idea of what I was going up against it was either a HiPower or a 1911 in 45acp.
During the "Rodney riots" many an officer who was authorized a M92 had a kit bag in the trunk with a 1911 and dozens of loaded mags....I was carrying a 45acp and had a bag with a M92 and a half dozen loaded mags. The thought of being cut-off w/o back up ( and that was likely at that time).....makes one ponder....
One also needs to ask are you more likely to be in a gunfight or a shootout ?!
That said I have multiple 1911's mostly 45's a couple 9's, and more than a few Glocks, all 9's......as I get older I think of moving to 1 platform ....... still not sure which one it will be!
as we get older we are suppossed to be wiser....I sometimes just get more confused........
Magic_Salad0892
05-11-10, 03:50
I agree with the above. I see no reason to use a .45, or a .40. But ****, I won't condemn a man who shoots the best with a Desert Eagle.
If you shoot awesome with a 1911. Use it.
I was raised on a Gen1 Glock 17 that my uncle owned. (The Glock platform is older than I am.)
Then my uncle bought a Gen2 Glock 17, which I practiced, and practiced on.
Then we bought Gen3 Glock 17s together, which we shoot a lot, and is my pistol of choice.
We now own Gen4 Glock 17s. We are Glock guys. It's what we shoot best.
Always have shot the 9x19 best. He likes 7.62x51 FALs. I like 5.45x39mm AK-74s. He likes 14.5'' DI 5.56x45mm AR-15s. I like 12.5'' piston 6.8x43 AR-15s.
What can you put rounds downrange effectively with?
So basically everyone either thinks I am weird or a wimp for carrying a 9mm so no more ghetto gunfighter image for me :(. Although luckily those that train with me and people in my unit can see how serious I take my shooting and don't question my choice.Perfect real world example of my "tortoise vs the hare" analogy. People always want to bet on the dang rabbit.
One also needs to ask are you more likely to be in a gunfight or a shootout ?! Very wise statement/question.
John_Wayne777
05-11-10, 07:22
The pistol that I carry most often is a Glock 19. Still, there are moments when I contemplate going with a larger caliber. I had an opportunity to take a class from Scott Reitz in 2007, and he was very clear that the 9mm was not a good round. He went on to say that the preferred cartridge in Metro was the .45 ACP. I noticed that he recently reiterated that position in the February 2010 issue of SWAT magazine. These types of things generally give me pause and allow me to consider my choices. So far, though, I still carry my Glock 19 more than any other.
No disrespect to Scotty R. as he's one of the smarter guys out there...but 9mm's are killing lots of bad guys in a lot of other departments. The NYPD, for instance, puts a fairly decent number of bad guys in the dirt every year with their 9mm handguns.
As Americans we're almost genetically predisposed to believe in the effectiveness of bigger calibers. A guy gets shot with 4 or 5 .45 ACP rounds and people think the caliber got the job done. A guy gets shot with 4 or 5 9mm rounds and it's "It took X rounds to kill that guy!"
It's entirely possible that his department has numbers behind his observations, so again...I'm not knocking the guy. Nevertheless, there's a lot of data out there from a lot of departments that shows 9mm will do most anything you can reasonably expect a handgun to do. If I truly thought that a bigger caliber offered tangible real-world advantages in most armed conflicts, I'd carry the bigger caliber in a heartbeat. As far as I can tell by reading the work of people much smarter than me, the 9mm when loaded with good ammo seems to accomplish everything you can reasonably expect a handgun to accomplish but with the added benefits of extra capacity and cheaper (thus more plentiful) training.
I'm not a gunfighter by any stretch of the imagination...but I'm also not the stupidest person on the planet and I've noticed over the years that the predominant predictor of acceptable performance in a gunfight seems to be first the mindset of the individual and secondly the level of training he/she took into the fight. Given that observation I've essentially come to the conclusion that more training will offer me more tangible benefits in an armed conflict than the extra .07 inches of bullet diameter offered by a .45 ACP. For those with a higher level of skill and perhaps a cheaper source of ammunition, that calculation may be very different.
Most reading this thread, however, are probably in the same boat as me.
I note that in LA for many years only the elite guys could carry .45s, and elite guys tend to shooter better than the regular guys for the most part.
On my job we've been using the 9mm since switching from the .357mag in 1989/1990, we've never had to shoot anyone more than four times, and those shootings were all in one burst.
The 9mm will work if you get good hits.
As an observation, we are all somewhat stuck in our own experience box. The only total failure to stop I have seen has been on a bad guy shot dead center through the chest, aorta hit, with a .45 loaded with 230gr hardball, that guy was on his feet and dangerous for a shocking amount of time.
The last OIS we had the bad guy caught a 124gr +P Gold Dot in basically the same spot, and dropped so quickly that the second round of the pair fired by our officer went over the top of the collapsing bad guy.
So, in my experience the 9mm works and the .45 is a wimpy load.
Just sayin.
Anyway, like I said, besides J frame .38s my entire serious pistol battery is covered by Glock 9mms, lately G17s at work and G19 off-duty.
After many years of not owning one I bought a G19 to try out. I'm liking it so much I just might go all G19, both on and off duty.
I may get another 10mm for hunting and such just to stick with the theme and my training.
Also no disrespect to Scotty Reitz, but the State Police here (Washington) carried 92F Berettas for over a decade and had very good results with 9mm.
When people argue about 9mm not being enough, I like to point out two people who where shot with .50 cal who survived - Charlie Beckwith (yes he was shot with a 12.7) and Mickey Block.
It's all about shot placement, and staying in the fight until the desired result is achieved.
Great article by Jeff.
I've always said that if I ever get the opportunity to transition or standardize another agency/user group, it will be to 9mm, specifically Glocks 17/19/26.
Many years ago now I took the words of a famous gun writer (Ayoob) to heart when he said words to the effect, you may shoot a .45 faster, accurately than I can shoot a 9mm fast and accurate, but you almost certainly will shoot a 9mm faster and more accurately than you will shoot a .45.
When I added my abilities to handle the pistol weak hand only, then it sealed the deal for the 9mm as primary. This was coming of my decade of the 1911 .45 - the '80's. And I went Glock 17, then BHP + P7, then dropped the P7. BHP for a good while then started back on 1911s for sport and Glocks for CCW and I havn't seen anything really seriously challenge the G19 for supremacy.
I think the .40 actually offers more above a 9mm than the .45 IF one has to rank barrier penetration/car windshield penetration highly as so many LE rightfully do.
But that's not a huge part of my situation.
Beat Trash
05-11-10, 11:16
I'm finding this topic refreshing.
As I have previously posted, I agree with the article referenced on page one. My experience over the last 18 years as a LEO leads me to place the importance of shot placement and a reliable platform over caliber (45 vs. 9mm).
What I find so refreshing is that after two pages, this is still an intelligent discussion, with people giving their reasoning for their choices. So often this topic quickly turns into people bashing another's choice instead of giving reasoning for their own choice.
Beat Trash
05-11-10, 11:24
During the "Rodney riots" many an officer who was authorized a M92 had a kit bag in the trunk with a 1911 and dozens of loaded mags....I was carrying a 45acp and had a bag with a M92 and a half dozen loaded mags. The thought of being cut-off w/o back up ( and that was likely at that time).....makes one ponder....
One also needs to ask are you more likely to be in a gunfight or a shootout ?!
This is interesting. The guys with bigger bullets wanting hi capacity. The guys with hi capacity wanting bigger bullets.
Our city had two weeks of riots in 2001. There may have been several bags in trunks of Corwn Vic's that contained 25-55 rd bandoleers of 12 ga rounds, to go with the 5 extra rounds assigned to each shotgun in the vehicle. There also may have been some go-bags with loaded 30rd AR magazines (we did not have patrol rifles at that time). Neither item would have been authorized.
Depending on District of assignment, one had to drive through the city to get to work. There were alot of "interesting and heavy bags" officers brought in from their personal vehicles to their lockers. A little something to make the drive to work less stressful...
I'm not LE nor was my military exp high speed in any sense (except for the missiles). But I've been in a tight spot a handful of times and choose to go to a couple of them and your heavy duffle bag stories remind me of my own epiphany - when you have some time to prep . . . you just can't seem to have enough guns/ammo/lights etc. :D
Ok I'll keep "pondering" ....given the choice of carry guns it would be a "sound" 1911 in 38 Super. Full size steel frame for duty and ltwt commander bobbed for off duty. Problem is there just hasn't been any real load development in that caliber for decades!!
Near 357 mag velocities, heavy gun to control recoil, yadda-yadda
I'm serious though I love the Super but gave up on it for more standard calibers...................
The dinosaur in me loves my 1911's as they have been my carry/ go to gun for decades......but I won't bad mouth a Glock, I own too many. The 1911 just feels right, but it is 30+ years of muscle memory, if I was a young pup I would probably feel the same about the Glock, which to me feels like holding a beer bottle.
In 9mm I go to Glocks, in 45 acp I tend to go to 1911's. I think part of the reason is that I truly believe that when a gun is designed from the ground up for a specific caliber, other calibers are an afterthought and not as efficient as the original caliber/design. Unless the OAL length is approx the same ie 45acp/38Super in 1911's and 9mm/40SW in glocks.
Hell all handgun rounds suck, but any are better than a sharp stick in the eye!
Hell all handgun rounds suck, but any are better than a sharp stick in the eye!
I think a sharp stick in the eye would have better stopping characteristics than most handgun rounds...
I think a sharp stick in the eye would have better stopping characteristics than most handgun rounds...
No kidding...I think I'd take my chances with being shot with a round from a service pistol over a sharp stick in the eye.
GermanSynergy
05-11-10, 17:47
I prefer my 9mm Glocks because they are reliable, ergonomic enough for my needs and inexpensive to feed. For years and years I'd "swap" platforms: 1911s, USPs, Sig P Series- but at the end of the day, I'd always go back to my trusty G 17. :cool:
Ok I'll keep "pondering" ....given the choice of carry guns it would be a "sound" 1911 in 38 Super.
by far my funnest gun to shoot...especially w/ reloads and a lighter spring. This one was done by Smokey, an old coot 1911 smith from zapata, who passed away a few years ago. A safari arms frame / caspian slide. Ramped bbl & i added the lazergrips.
sorry point & click...i'm no stickman
Extremehunter
05-11-10, 18:45
Only thing I carry is the Glock 23; i used to not like the Glocks because i thought they were all hype. I went from sig, springfield (1911), kimber, springfield XD, and finally the Glock 23; it was the best decision i made. The feel of the gun just feels natural in my hand and I'm a better shot now :).
Great read. I love this stuff!
I could be off base here, if so I expect some of the more experienced guys on here to point me in the right direction, but the way I've come to understand it is 9mm is plenty of round kill a person and if I want a reliable 9mm I buy a glock and a reliable .45 I buy a 1911.
Also, from information I gathered off the boob tube, the 9mm got a lot of flack from an FBI shoot out that went south for a few good officers a couple decades ago. Supposedly the 10mm was developed for it's increased firepower, which I think just means better penetration through car doors, windshields and the like, and then the .40 was developed as a cheaper shorter version then it's just capitalism, what you have isn't good enough anymore you now need "This" to feel safe.
You have learned well Grasshopper. In my 25 years of carry guns I always come back to the Glock 19. It's size and weight is just about perfect.The Glock 26 is a close second.
Here's my take;
I go with the 9mm because I like the fact of two power levels. Ball for range use and +P hollow point for carry.
I go with 9mm because I may have to engage targets shooting the gun with one hand instead of two.
I go with a Double action trigger as I may forget to decock or put it on safe in a high stress situation.
The Glock requires little maintenice and parts are easliy replaced when it needs it.
As for modifications. I will say I can live with a Glock right out of the box.
But what I do on mine is;
Put a smooth face Glock 17 trigger in my 19 and 26. Much better feel and you can also do this on the 23 and 27.
Night sights. I like the Trijicons that have the green dot in front and yellow in back. lone Wolf stocks these.
Then recently I have found this slide lock that not only tightens and centers groups ,but also makes takedown eaiser. Well worth the asking price.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=851754
I could be off base here, if so I expect some of the more experienced guys on here to point me in the right direction, but the way I've come to understand it is 9mm is plenty of round kill a person and if I want a reliable 9mm I buy a glock and a reliable .45 I buy a 1911.
Some people far more knowledgeable than myself recommend in .45 the HK45 and the M&P with the 1911 coming in if you know how to do the up keep and work on them.
with 35+ years behind a 1911 I will say this...they are a "gunfighters gun".....you will need to train and stay proficient with a cocked and locked 'lifestyle" and you will need to KNOW more than say basic maintenance.
I will also say that 95% of those carrying a 1911 ....probably shouldn't......I know bold statement but true.
I have for decades worked part time as an ffl or for an ffl.... I can't tell you how many guys "in the know", when wanting to see a 1911, I always chambered ckd then handed them the pistol cocked and locked and watched 99% fumble with how to rack the slide.....they didn't even know basic manipulation, but bought one any way. If I handed the guy one I knew in 1 second wether it was probably a good fit for him. Now I'm not talking about a "newbie", just the REMF's that come in talking about what an expert they are and "there is nothing like a 1911", yet couldn't properly handle one.
if you want to "commit" to a gun go 1911, want to shoot more than maintain ....buy a Glock.
I know there are those "in the know" who will tell you that there is nothing faster than a 1911. I have over the years, having my own range at one time and being in one of the largest IPSC/ IDPA clubs tested this theory many times. I have tested newer shooters to Grand Masters and have SEEN that there is nothing faster than a Glock type pistol. This test was conducted with a holstered pistol , facing the target and from the beep, the Glock beats the 1911 hands down. Just draw, point and shoot from 7 feet........
As I write this I ask why do I have so many $$$$$ tied up in 1911's?? This from a guy who has been carrying one for 35+ years, SE Asian war games, LE, competitive shooter, multiple Gunsite alumni, ( forgive me Col.), and a couple other world class trainers thrown in and I still am drawn to the Glock..
excuse an sp errors it's early and I am off to work!
PS I have to add and could go on about the FEEBs and Miami but it was a tactics failure not a round failure ...but with it being the biggest disaster in FBI history, someone or something had to be blamed so they burned the 9mm cartridge. The 9mm in question had first pierced the bicep then the toracic cavity falling "short" of the heart by about an inch ,so blame the round! The 10 mm was adopted , don't get me started there ,and when MOST agents couldn't handle full powered loads they asked for the factory to load the round down. Then somebody with half a brain said if we're only filling half the case why not shorten the case. Col. Jeff Cooper and others had experimented with basically this round in HiPowers some years earlier and viola the 40S&W was born! This is an extremely shortened version of what transpired but you get the idea.
Robb Jensen
05-12-10, 06:59
I agree Glocks are great in 9mm. They'll work right out of the box and really don't need much to make them very nice handguns.
The jury is still out on the Gen 4s Still a little to early to see if Glock 'fixed' what wasn't broken with the 9mms.
Glock Gen 2 and Gen 3 pistols don't need much IMHO.
Vickers mag catch from Tangodown:
I add a Vickers Mag catch to all the Glocks I own that they'll fit (everything except Gen 4). Glock should offer these from the factory.
Grip plug:
Get one. I add a grip plug from Pearce for every Glock they make one for. Again Glock should offer these from the factory. I install one in the frame and then with a file blend the edges in the magwell to make reloads easier. In Gaston Glocks opinion is that the hole is the grip is to let out debris. I'm not sure how his logic is on this since most of time peoples guns will live in a safe, range bag on in a holster and the debris can't come out, gravity pulls things down not up. The grip plug prevents anything from getting in there and gumming up the works. The connector and trigger bar are right above this hole in the frame...the hole there wasn't really well thought out.
Lighter connectors:
I add a 3.5lb (non-fitting required Ghost connector) and do the .25 cent polish with Simichrome.
Extended slide stop levers:
I don't care for the extended slide stops personally because they pretty much cause me to hold the lever down (I use a very high aggressive grip) and the gun won't lock open when empty. On new shooters I see the opposite with them I see these extended levers cause the slide to prematurely lock open. If they work for you great but be aware that this can many times cause one of these problems. They do work very well for lefties, if you've see my bro M4C member Looey (Luis G) reload a Glock from slide lock you'll see him use his support hand (his right hand since he's a lefty) middle and index finger reach around to the left side of the gun to release the slide. The extended lever used in that fashion is very fast. He's the fastest lefty I know with a Glock. If you're going to use one use the factory one. Many of the aftermarket ones are pure junk.
Useless add ons:
I don't like adding after market recoil guide rods and or different springs, maybe on a competition gun but on a defensive gun you should run stock recoil springs and rods (they work fine from subsonic 158gr to 127+P+). Glocks don't need buffers. Maritime spring cups are NOT needed. Add on safeties are a bad idea. Different (aftermarket) trigger bars, adjustable trigger stops, frames etc. Leave all that stuff for range gun/competition guns only. I've seen it all fail on the square competition range. It won't magically get better and more reliable on the street.
Sights:
I like simple sights, this means fixed sights like Warren Tactical straight eight style night sights. I have no use for adjustable sights on a defensive gun. I've broken so many adjustables in competition I have to only assume that these can and will break out on the street too. One year I broke three on the same gun (high round counts and adjustable sights are are not a good mix, took me 23K rounds to break 3 sights). Leave the adjustables for the bullseye shooters, silhouette shooters and hunters.
Barrels:
Glocks don't need fitted or match grade barrels. I used to use a KKM barrel in my competition Glocks when using reloads. I only used them because the rounds my ammo sponsor made for me would keyhole out of the polygonal rifling of the factory Glock barrels (a gamer load = A 147gr ZERO brand bullet doing 875fps using Vihtavuori N320 powder which required a special undersize sizing die and small rifle primers) this round wouldn't expand as well into the rifles as a factory round does, it's a very high pressure round but recoils extremely soft. The KKM has conventional rifling and would stabilize the round. If you're going to use an aftermarket barrel I'd highly recommend using a drop-in that requires ZERO fitting, KKM and Storm Lake make barrels which will drop in with no fitting required.
With factory ammo factory Glock barrels are best and are the most reliable. Anytime you start fitting parts on a Glocks is when you start compromising it's reliability.
My experience = 13yrs of GSSF shooting, 6 yrs of IDPA and USPSA shooting, shooting since 1975, shooting Glocks since 1987. Over 125K rounds of 9mm fired through Glocks during all that time and never a kB. YMMV.
But what the hell do I know? ;)
Magic_Salad0892
05-12-10, 07:27
If we're talking about upgrades. How about...
Match Grade Slide Lock
Cheap part that adds accuracy to the gun, without a degradation in reliability, shootability, durability, and weight.
Function: Improves the barrel-to-slide lockup. Therefore the barrel locks up in the same place EVERY time, fpr match grade 1911 type accuracy.
Competition Trigger Spring:
Better than the stock trigger spring as it gives me a lighter trigger pull, and eliminates creep in the trigger, in the tens of thousands of rounds I have on Glocks with this type of spring, I've yet to see one brake.
Crimson Trace Laser Grip:
Totally preference, but nothing beats a laser in terms of speed in low light shooting. Or for that matter some day light shooting, and off hand shooting, or shooting from (some) awkward positions.
Titanium Striker + 5.5 lbs. Striker Spring, and Titanium Firing Pin Safety:
Handling these next to the standard Glock ones, the choice is clear (for me), this leads to an improved trigger pull, and even faster ignition sequence for faster repeated shots. Not needed, but definitely, good for me.
Suppressors:
A must have on ANY handgun for me, how do I apply this to Glock without an aftermarket barrel? Easy.
Use a Glock 17L (this is the route I took, had to be cut down a little though.) or Glock 34 barrel, and have it threaded appropriately. More reliable than a Lone Wolf Conversion. For added coolness factor, and slightly reduced weight, use a ''C'' model slide.
Recoil Buffer:
Cheap and it reduces recoil by a bit. Not needed even in the slightest.
But doesn't cause a single reliability issue, simple to install recoils less than my Gen4.
Am I going to overboard? Because I've never seen a Glock with any of these modifications malfunction, and as my ''Go To'' pistol. I'm 100% confident in it.
This only after training. That's the BEST modification. Yourself.
Any opinions/or redundancy? (PMs on other recommendations are welcomed.)
Robb Jensen
05-12-10, 07:51
If we're talking about upgrades. How about...
Match Grade Slide Lock
Cheap part that adds accuracy to the gun, without a degradation in reliability, shootability, durability, and weight.
Function: Improves the barrel-to-slide lockup. Therefore the barrel locks up in the same place EVERY time, fpr match grade 1911 type accuracy.
Tried one several years ago, it caused my pistol to not go into battery after 200 rounds at the range. I know two others who used them for a very short time. They too each had issues.....study group of 3. Maybe they work for some people, they didn't for me.
Competition Trigger Spring:
Better than the stock trigger spring as it gives me a lighter trigger pull, and eliminates creep in the trigger, in the tens of thousands of rounds I have on Glocks with this type of spring, I've yet to see one brake.
I've used them, they have about 1/2 the service life of standard Glock trigger springs, I've had them fail in as little as 2500 rounds. The only trigger spring I find as reliable or more reliable than a factory Glock trigger spring is a factory Glock NY1 spring. Since 1987 I've fired over 125K rounds through 9mm Glocks. The last 50K+ was in the last 6yrs.
Crimson Trace Laser Grip:
Totally preference, but nothing beats a laser in terms of speed in low light shooting. Or for that matter some day light shooting, and off hand shooting, or shooting from (some) awkward positions.
Great upgrade, it does highly alter the feel of the Glock grip if you can get past that and it works for you it's a fine add on. I do wish they had a on/off switch.
Titanium Striker + 5.5 lbs. Striker Spring, and Titanium Firing Pin Safety:
Handling these next to the standard Glock ones, the choice is clear (for me), this leads to an improved trigger pull, and even faster ignition sequence for faster repeated shots. Not needed, but definitely, good for me.
All junk, leave that for the range only competition guns only. I've seen titanium shit make Glocks go full auto or have light strikes.
Suppressors:
A must have on ANY handgun for me, how do I apply this to Glock without an aftermarket barrel? Easy.
Use a Glock 17L (this is the route I took, had to be cut down a little though.) or Glock 34 barrel, and have it threaded appropriately. More reliable than a Lone Wolf Conversion. For added coolness factor, and slightly reduced weight, use a ''C'' model slide.
I own a Lone Wolf Dist barrel a customer gave to me for my Glock 17s, it's been 100% reliable in the 500 rounds I've put through it. I haven't shot it suppressed yet as I don't own a 9mm pistol suppressor.
Recoil Buffer:
Cheap and it reduces recoil by a bit. Not needed even in the slightest.
But doesn't cause a single reliability issue, simple to install recoils less than my Gen4.
Am I going to overboard? Because I've never seen a Glock with any of these modifications malfunction, and as my ''Go To'' pistol. I'm 100% confident in it.
How many rounds is how many guns have you used this 'trouble free' buffer? I ask because I've seen 20-25 people with functioning problems quit having functioning problems after I've removed their aftermarket useless buffer.....I think the FBI would call this a clue. ;)
Magic_Salad0892
05-12-10, 10:20
I completed the 2000 round test with all of these upgrades on the gun.
Not a single malfunction, though I'm currently complating getting rid of a few due to longevity issues.
Between me and one other friend of mine, who I do most of my shooting with, I've seen him use the same competition trigger spring for over 60,000 rounds. It hasn't broken or failed, we are running it to failure.
ETA Again: When saying ''reliability'' with the LWD Threaded Barrel I should have said ''more longevity''. I used crappy word placement. Forgive me.
Now while I do love all of these upgrades and they worked for me, if I do get rid of them, because I think they're starting to wear, I won't be replacing them, I can get used to shooting a bare(er) Glock. And I know I should, I've been putting it off, because of how much I love shooting my modded one.
Also, there was a guy on Glocktalk (I hate that site, but somebody told me about it.) who is making Match Grade Slide Locks, they've been reliable for me, and everybody I've heard of who's used it.
Robb Jensen
05-12-10, 11:05
Between me and one other friend of mine, who I do most of my shooting with, I've seen him use the same competition trigger spring for over 60,000 rounds. It hasn't broken or failed, we are running it to failure.
Wow I've never had a standard trigger spring go past 12K rounds and never a competition spring go past about 5K but most fail me in 1/2 that. I must be doing a whole lot more dryfire, and dry practice than you do.
Magic_Salad0892
05-12-10, 11:20
I practice dry firing, but he does not.
My competition spring is at about 5k rounds, and God knows how many dry fires.
The recoil buffer is a Wilson Combat SHOK-BUFF system for Glocks.
ROCKET20_GINSU
05-13-10, 03:21
I really want to like 1911s and utilize 1911s. I love the mystique, history, feel/balance and trigger of the platform. I am seduced by the "Its the operator's/professionals' gun" factor, and I want to embrace it (perhaps one day I will) but I am exponentially more proficient and capable with my 9mm Glocks, I've got all the major ones, 26, 19, 17, 34.
I have much more dry fire and trigger time behind a glock which translates into much more muscle memory. I find that because I practice with my glocks and I don't practice with my 1911 I can shoot and manipulate my glock exponentially more accurately and faster than my 1911. I have been shooting glocks almost exclusively for the past 4 years and I plan to keep it that way until I attain my goal of becoming a Master in USPSA Production, though it'll probably take another 4 years atleast :D.
I prefer the Glock over the 1911 for many reasons, but these are the major ones:
Out of the box 100% reliable (virtually all the time)
Cheaper to buy, customize, fix, shoot, and sacrifice (to evidence locker)
Durable to rough handling and the environment
Very simple to fix and self smith
I prefer the 9mm to the 45 ACP because:
Cheaper to shoot
Higher capacity
Acceptable ballistics w/ good JHPs
Less recoil, easier to shoot faster and w/ 1 hand
*I also prefer stock trigger assemblies (smooth) and springs in all my CCW guns.
If I was operation as part of a team w/ multiple team members, as I did when I was in the military, I would worry less about capacity and a little less about reliability as my teammates could help me establish "fire superiority" and would likely be able to cover for me during a reload or malfunction. As a private citizen though... in every realistic defensive scenario that I can fathom the only person I can rely on is me, no one is going to be there to help me engage multiple adversaries or to cover me if I need to do a reload or fix a malfunction. I don't really need to worry about using only FMJ ammo or intermediate barriers and I am privately funded so a 9mm works well for me.
As I grow older and hopefully more wealthy :D lol, I may embrace the aficionado's pistol, the 1911, (especially after I retire and am looking for awesome hobbies :D) but for now, I'll take my Glock.
GU
Six Feet Under
05-13-10, 08:14
I used to have a 1911, traded it for my Glock 19 + mags and Ranger/Ranger SXT ammo when I joined the police academy because I wanted a gun with similar ergonomics and controls (plus something that would fit in my duty holster and allow me to use that at the range as well was a plus) so I wasn't learning on two platforms.
When I got shot, I realize that with a good bullet design, 9mm will F people up. I caught a Ranger SXT right above the elbow and it screwed my arm up BAD. Shattered the humerus and the elbow socket, I have bone fragments all over the place in my arm, limited range of motion (going to therapy to have that worked out), possibility of future surgery which could cause nerve damage bad enough to make me lose use of my right hand and possibly feeling in my arm. Took two steel plates, 17 screws, and a synthetic bone graft to piece it back together. Pops all day long and hurts like a mother.
The main reason I got the 9mm was because I wanted to shoot for cheaper. I had a 9mm gun before I got the 1911 but traded up for the bigger gun. If I ever get shot in an extremity in a gun fight, I don't want to have to fumble with safeties of any kind when I'm down to one hand.
So in short, I now have full faith in the Ranger SXT and my G19. :p
I finally realized I was fighting the other weapons systems to make them work. However, 9mm Glocks seem to work FOR me and that is all the difference in the world. I can spend my time training on getting good hits, tactics, and fighting bad guys instead of my own pistol.
Shoot what you can hit/fight with. More bullets are always better. I believe in ammunition :D
I just recently realized this as well, luckily I realized this at a pretty young age and only after my fourth platform instead of my fourteenth.
I agree with gotM4's suggestions and cautions. I too have been shooting Glock 9mm's since the 86/87 timeframe. I however, personally like the FACTORY extended slide release and with my particular grip neither prematurely engage it or cause it to not work.
If your Glock is potentially ever to be used for serious duty, leave the aftermarket parts out.
Funny as I have gone through this lately. A couple of years ago I settled on Glock as my handgun of choice for all the reasons stated. I also receintly decided I was going to stick with 9mm. I have a Glock 35 in 40s&W but this is now my only non 9mm Glock soon to be joined by a 19 and 26. I am looking into getting a 9mm upper for it to turn it into a 17.
Then combined with DocGKR ballistic info on modern Duty/SD loads I went with 9mm.
The author didn't mention the change in bullet construction and technology. The 9mm of today is certainly different than when the 9mm Winchester Silvertip was considered the standard back in the 80s.
I too have settled on the Glock 9mm after much experimenting. I was issued a Glock 17 when I went to the police academy 16 years ago, then we switched to the Glock 22. I was not happy with the 22, so I carried a 1911 for a while, then a Glock 21, and now I'm back to the Glock 17!
In my handgun collection, I had dozens of guns in 9mm, .40, .45 and .357. Now, the only thing left is 9mm. I shoot 9mm better, it is cheaper and easy to find, and most importantly, after much reading and research, I decided that the terminal ballistics difference between the major handgun calibers was not great enough for me to be concerned with.
The only handguns I currently own are 9mm Glocks and a Kahr PM9.
thats why we are taught to shoot till the person goes down and not a certain number of rounds.
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