View Full Version : Troy, Samson and Midwest Indsutries FF forearms
I've been looking at all of these and all seem to mount to same without removal of front sight or barrel nut. Just cut off the Delta ring and mount the forearm.
Can anyone tell me the differences and positives and negatives of each brand (weight, rigidness, etc). The Samson and MI almost look identical but then again, I have not handled any personally, just viewed pics online. I am interested in putting one on a mid-length gas system carbine w/either a YHM Flip front sight /gas block or get a longer rail, low profile gas block and flip up sights for the rail.
Thanks in advance for the info.
From a purely economic standpoint I went with the MI when I built my new gun. I have previously used an MI carbine length rail on another gun I own and have had no difficulties with it in either performance or quality. FWIW, at work my rifle has KAC rails and they have had a tendency to turn purple when they get hot. Nothing wrong with them in function, just appearance. I didn't want that on my personal guns so I stayed away from KAC, that and they cost too much. Good luck in your search
Anyone else have any personal experience with the Troy and/or Samson? Thanks in advance for the info.
First, the Samson rail is the Troy (stole their design). The Troy rail has anti-rotational tabs which the MI does not have. The Troy and MI are both good quality so you cannot lose either way IMHO.
C4
Wayne Dobbs
05-14-07, 16:09
Grant,
What are the comparisons between the Troy FF rail and the LaRue unit? Is the LaRue worth the extra money and what does that buy?
Grant,
What are the comparisons between the Troy FF rail and the LaRue unit?
I will give you my song and dance on rail systems.
If you can install or pay someone to install it, go with a one piece FF rail (like LT, DD, KAC). If you cannot do it or don't to pay for it, go with a two piece FF rail.
No two piece rail is going to be as lite or as rigid as a one piece one.
C4
First, the Samson rail is the Troy (stole their design). The Troy rail has anti-rotational tabs which the MI does not have. The Troy and MI are both good quality so you cannot lose either way IMHO.
C4
I'm curious as to who you are saying stole who's design since Scott Samson was the designer...
I'm curious as to who you are saying stole who's design since Scott Samson was the designer...
That is false statement which has been pushed around the internet.
Just some info for you, before Steve Troy contacted Samson about making rails for them, Samson had not made a SINGLE part for the AR. I also do not believe that Samson even owned and AR at this time. So you do you honestly believe that Samson sat on the design of the MRF waiting for someone to come along and have it made with their name on it??? :rolleyes:
I also believe that Troy Industries has been awarded the patent on it.
C4
Anyone have a link to the court cases? I had thought that Samson had won several times.
Anyone have a link to the court cases? I had thought that Samson had won several times.
Last I heard, the cases were not going anywhere fast because Samson was failing to show up.
I have not talked to Steve Troy about it quite some time though.
C4
That is false statement which has been pushed around the internet.
C4
Actually I obtained the information from one of the involved parties, not the errornet. It is my understanding that Samson designed the rail for Troy and the two later had a falling out and went their seperate ways.
An individuals point of view is often swayed by the source of their information.
Cesiumsponge
05-15-07, 00:43
Samson looks like a machine shop and they must be a vendor for Troy. Most companies don't own 100% in-house machine and finishing facilities because it's a very expensive investment.
Since Samson made the parts for Troy, they knew all the specs obviously. I won't speculate on the legal issues because it seems like they're still battling it out and everyone has their own rumors and possible sources, but once the vendor has your design...well he has your design on file. We have designs for stuff from Boeing, Cessna, Flow International, etc. (lots of it exclusively licensed components to us alone), because we make it for them.
It wouldn't take a stretch of the imagination to replace their company name with our own, but we'd come under a huge barrage of legal issues for doing something like that. I actually have the Samson MFRS rail I got several years back before I was made aware there was beef between Troy and Samson. I have never had a Troy but I assume they're both off identical prints, they would have to be identical save the engraving.
Robb Jensen
05-15-07, 06:04
I've used/installed all 3. I like them in this order: Troy, Samson, MI.
Actually I obtained the information from one of the involved parties, not the errornet. It is my understanding that Samson designed the rail for Troy and the two later had a falling out and went their seperate ways.
An individuals point of view is often swayed by the source of their information.
Well let me guess, you got the info from either Samson or one of his dealers.
Re-read the question I asked and see if it makes sense.
I have been involved with this mess from day one and was one of the VERY first (if not the first) dealers to be approached by Samson to stock "their rails."
I turned them down.
C4
Samson looks like a machine shop and they must be a vendor for Troy. Most companies don't own 100% in-house machine and finishing facilities because it's a very expensive investment.
Since Samson made the parts for Troy, they knew all the specs obviously. I won't speculate on the legal issues because it seems like they're still battling it out and everyone has their own rumors and possible sources, but once the vendor has your design...well he has your design on file. We have designs for stuff from Boeing, Cessna, Flow International, etc. (lots of it exclusively licensed components to us alone), because we make it for them.
It wouldn't take a stretch of the imagination to replace their company name with our own, but we'd come under a huge barrage of legal issues for doing something like that. I actually have the Samson MFRS rail I got several years back before I was made aware there was beef between Troy and Samson. I have never had a Troy but I assume they're both off identical prints, they would have to be identical save the engraving.
You are correct Sir. Truth be told, when Troy found Samson, they didn't even have a CNC machine so Troy had to get them one so they could do the work.
C4
Cesiumsponge
05-15-07, 19:35
I know that the Troy rails were considered the top of the line back when they were first released and to my knowledge, were the first rail to offer a continuous rail system from an A3 flat top to a near seamless transition to the rail without the need for risers or whatnot (shortly after LMT came out with their MRP but thats an integrated upper solution)
I'm curious if there are new makes that surpass them in design, function, and any other aspects that make them take the top spot today. Once I bought my rail, I fell out the loop a little and haven't had a chance to be updated to-the-minute as far as top dog goes. It seems like every single day, another company opens up and makes/copies an existing design.
So you do you honestly believe that Samson sat on the design of the MRF waiting for someone to come along and have it made with their name on it??? :rolleyes:
I also believe that Troy Industries has been awarded the patent on it.
C4
Grant, I chose not to get into a urination event with you over this. I called you on it because I have seen you slam Samson before. You are obviously in the Troy corner in this situation and biased in that direction. Had Samson done something to YOU I could see this, however you have made no mention that YOU have been wronged.
After 20 years in Law Enforcement I have found that their are at least two sides to every story. The truth however is normally found in the middle.
To get back to Stick's initial question, the Samson rail will work just fine for what you are looking to do (as would the Troy). I do agree that a one piece rail (Larue for example) would be a stronger and lighter alternative. If you decide to go the gas block route be sure to have it PINNED in place. Set screws WILL back out eventually leaving you with a single shot blaster until it can be repaired. Installing a one piece rail is not difficult. If you chose not to tackle it any local gunsmith worthy of the name should be able to make the switch for you.
ETA: I would think that if Troy had already won any legal proceedings Samson would have been ordered to cease and desist production of any rails that infringed on Troy's rights.
Samson or Troy good stuff. I know of a MI one that cracked, but MI sent out a new replacement.
Thanks for all the info. I have installed 1 piece rails before, both rifle length YHM lightweight free floats. One on a RRA 16" (reece wanna be)and another on a SS 20" 1/8 (SDM-R wanna be). They are o.k. but the possibility of rotation is what I am not crazy about. Which I don't plan on getting rid of either of the rifles or changing their set up. Possilby may tap a small set screw into the tube/barrel nut on the underside to eliminate the possibility of rotation in the future. I am mainly just interested in the quality of the 2 piece units and differnence between them. I think I'm sold on the Troy rails in comparison to the others from price/anti-rotation/continuous rail point of veiw. Thanks again for all the info.
Grant, I chose not to get into a urination event with you over this. I called you on it because I have seen you slam Samson before. You are obviously in the Troy corner in this situation and biased in that direction. Had Samson done something to YOU I could see this, however you have made no mention that YOU have been wronged.
After 20 years in Law Enforcement I have found that their are at least two sides to every story. The truth however is normally found in the middle.
To get back to Stick's initial question, the Samson rail will work just fine for what you are looking to do (as would the Troy). I do agree that a one piece rail (Larue for example) would be a stronger and lighter alternative. If you decide to go the gas block route be sure to have it PINNED in place. Set screws WILL back out eventually leaving you with a single shot blaster until it can be repaired. Installing a one piece rail is not difficult. If you chose not to tackle it any local gunsmith worthy of the name should be able to make the switch for you.
ETA: I would think that if Troy had already won any legal proceedings Samson would have been ordered to cease and desist production of any rails that infringed on Troy's rights.
I view Steve Troy as a friend and so when someone screws a friend I take offense to that. Steve Troy also does not post on the internet so I taken up the charge to make sure folks know what really is going on.
Again, I ask anyone that believes that Samson designed the rail, to show me a SINGLE AR related product before he became involved with Troy Industries. This should tell you all you need to know.
Last time I checked, the court case is still going on so that is why you have not heard anything.
As you said, there are two sides two every story and you are biased towards the Samson one. I have been involved in this since day one and am also the guy that caught Samson on ARFCOM trying to peddle a "new rail system." If this isn't bad enough, Samson is in bed with Dick Swan.
C4
He's involved with Dick Swan?
To heck with that. I made the mistake of buying an ARMS mount once.
He's involved with Dick Swan?
To heck with that. I made the mistake of buying an ARMS mount once.
Yes, heavily.
C4
Steel_Weasel
05-16-07, 16:00
If this isn't bad enough, Samson is in bed with Dick Swan.
C4
Hmm, I wonder if this relationship had anything to do with the 'new' SIR II system being very similar to the Troy rail (2 peice) ?
Hmm, I wonder if this relationship had anything to do with the 'new' SIR II system being very similar to the Troy rail (2 peice) ?
Had everything to do with it. Also, the ARMS SIR that Dick submitted for the RIS II contract was not selected, but since this award took so long, ARMS was allowed to submit another rail. Guess which rail was submitted.
C4
Well I think thats enough evidence for me...
I just would like to add some info in the Troy V Samson.
Troy was given a patent on his rails sometime in May. I heard that Samson's patent is still around 18 months out. There is a trial in the works thats going to be held in Boston MA. News on this is scarce right now. Troy is making sure that every T is crossed and every I is dotted so when it does go to trial they will have a rock solid case.
With all this going on, Troy has still has time to have at least 6 new projects for next year's Shot. 2 are improvements on existing items and 4 are new all together. This doesn't include the new front sight design that was just released not to long ago.
So much for "two sides to every story."
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=59156#post59156
C4
Robb Jensen
06-21-07, 18:47
Awesome!
So much for "two sides to every story."
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=59156#post59156
C4
Ya'know Grant. Since you decided to rub my nose in it yes I will comment. Civil suits are nothing more then who puts on the best show. Trust me I've been the victim of one.
Yes, Troy won. Point for you. Of course your need to "rub my nose in it" has lost you a customer. I know, you don't care...
False alarm, Joe R. is NOT a Samson Troll. Sorry for being rude to you Joe.
C4
Play nice.
This isn't worth it.
paulosantos
06-26-07, 16:11
Ya'know Grant. Since you decided to rub my nose in it yes I will comment. Civil suits are nothing more then who puts on the best show. Trust me I've been the victim of one.
Yes, Troy won. Point for you. Of course your need to "rub my nose in it" has lost you a customer. I know, you don't care...
Give me a break. How did he rub your nose in it? He was right.
Stating facts as they currently exist should be good enough for anyone. True professionals don't get wrapped up in dirty pool, and I would hate to see this board sink to a low level.
I'm not taking shots at anyone here, so please take this comment the way it was intended.
Edited
I truely am sorry for my remarks. I also have experience with special people, including children, in my life and was only trying to break up what appeared to be an ongoing arguement with a bad attempt at humor.
No offence, my apologies.
Edited to remove offending comments.
C4
I am offended by the mentally challenged remark! :D
C4
Not to take this even further off topic, but....
I am OFFENDED by these statements. My son, who is about to turn 5, was diagnosed with, for lack of a better term, brain damage about 2 or 3 years ago. For a 5 year old, he is at about a 2 year old level in regards to maturity and probably a little lower in regards to fine motor skills. He is considered by the school system to be Mentally Handicapped. We celebrate EVERY accomplishment of his, regardless of how big or how little.
You guys might find it funny to make fun of those who are challenged, but I seriously do not!! I am, for one, sick and tired of seeing this statement thrown around so flippantly. What's even worse is to see it coming from LEO and MIL folks who have sworn to protect others. For you guys to lower yourselves to this level over and over again is truly sickening!
Let's just stop degrading folks with mental handicaps! I understand it was in jest, but when you've been through the HELL my wife and I have been, and continue to go through in learning to deal with a mentally handicapped son, you would also have the same seriously LOW "tolerance" for such jesting.
One last thing, I would NOT, for anything, trade the joy and pride that I receive from my youngest son. If anything, I would say that God has truly blessed my family by trusting us with a special guy such as him!!!
Giff
Mark LaRue
06-29-07, 10:03
Not to take this even further off topic, but....
I am OFFENDED by these statements. Giff
Giff,
I am very saddened to hear of your family situation ...
... most all families have a member with some issues, I know I do, just not as severe as your situation. Innocent comments by unsuspecting, but good hearted folks are a regular deal ... I find it works best for me to ignore them and let conversations travel on.
Again, I am truly saddened about your son.
v/r
Mark LaRue
Giff,
I am very saddened to hear of your family situation ...
... most all families have a member with some issues, I know I do, just not as severe as your situation. Innocent comments by unsuspecting, but good hearted folks are a regular deal ... I find it works best for me to ignore them and let conversations travel on.
Again, I am truly saddened about your son.
v/r
Mark LaRue
Mark,
Appreciate the comments. I'm a bit surprised that with over 150 views, only one person, outside of Stik has bothered to respond in any way, shape or form, but....
I fully understand that they are innocent comments, but after 3 years of reading that same quote, I guess I just reached the boiling point and needed to "vent", for lack of a better term.
Perhaps my resonse will also cause people to think through their words a bit more.....
He is doing well, but he turns 5 in a few weeks and I've never had an actual conversation with him. Sure, he can tell me what he wants and how he feels, but it's in 2 or 3 word phrases, that are not pronounced real well, combined with "pantomime". Some day, they say, his brain could "re-learn" how to send signals, and thence outgrow this thing. His smile is absolutely contagious and he is a true joy to be around. However, he does have a temper that can get the better of us at times. Guess that happens when you can't vocalize real well. This year he start all day kindergarten in a special needs room. That'll be good to give my wife a break from the everyday realities of the situation. Thing is, we can't just let him play alone anywhere in the house. Imagine the "inncocent destructiveness" of a 2 year old in the body of a BIG 5 year old!!
Again, thanks for the kind word Mark!
STIK, received your PM. Thanks! My response, as I noted above, was 3 or 4 years of seeing this comment, and I just had to say something. I'm not angry with you, as I realize the comment was made in jest to describe a very real issue on the internet, but even comments made in jest can hurt, or bring up hurtful memories/feelings.
Giff
Giff,
I just saw this now as it popped to the top and the topic was of interest.
Prayers for you and yours, may your strength and love for your family provide the needed supported for your son to outgrow this.
-Kev
Voodoochild
06-29-07, 14:14
Giff my prayers go out to you and your family.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.