View Full Version : On sheep, sheep dogs, wolves, and internet monikers
Littlelebowski
05-10-10, 14:50
Is anyone else sick and tired of this?
Yes. Internet hero through false bravado.
QuietShootr
05-10-10, 14:52
Is anyone else sick and tired of this?
:D:cool::D:cool::D:cool:
Littlelebowski
05-10-10, 14:56
Yes. Internet hero through false bravado.
Exactly. Drives me crazy.
John_Wayne777
05-10-10, 15:28
Jooo got a proleng with stoopid screen names, mang?
Littlelebowski
05-10-10, 15:29
Jooo got a proleng with stoopid screen names, mang?
Now you're making me think of Seinfeld and armoires :D
theblackknight
05-10-10, 15:48
Is anyone else sick and tired of this?
You Sir have a can of worms, and I have the can opener!>>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW8BZ7pRt28
To awnser your question yes.
BTW, is that doof wearing a DeltaForce hat??????
can we retire "sheeple" to while we're at it?
Littlelebowski
05-10-10, 15:57
can we retire "sheeple" to while we're at it?
Please. Reminds me of high school malcontents whining.
You Sir have a can of worms, and I have the can opener!>>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW8BZ7pRt28
There's some great comments on that page.
ablb510 - I had a lump in my throat through this entire vid. I thank God everyday for blessing me with the testicular fortitude to react swiftly and efficiently when the chips are down. You either have it or you don't. It is truly a gift from God. For those of you who have it (sheepdog mentality), embrace it... Wolfs beware....Sheepdogs are watching and your time will come. 8 hours ago
Is anyone else sick and tired of this?
I'm with ya, everyone's a tough guy on the Internet.
Pat Rogers once commented on some Internet persona's showing up at class, and not livin up to their own hype.
I'm sorta partial to the Quiet Professional line of thinking. Although, I'm sure I've allowed myself to be drug down to lower levels at times.
Bob
Littlelebowski
05-10-10, 16:25
You Sir have a can of worms, and I have the can opener!>>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW8BZ7pRt28
To awnser your question yes.
BTW, is that doof wearing a DeltaForce hat??????
Holy crap! I think Nutnfancy got banned from here.
Holy crap! I think Nutnfancy got banned from here.
Same name and not listed as banned. https://www.m4carbine.net/member.php?u=4361
You guys obviously don't get it, as you aren't tactical badgers or situationally aware penguins.
Does this mean I can take off the little keg of rum I wear around my neck?
I like it as a concept, but people need to stop harping on about it. It loses it's message.
There was a sort of 'label' I liked that some people were talking about in a thread here about non-tactical looking pants. 'The Grey Man' I think it was. Make it so that nobody ever notices who you truly are. I liked that one because that's pretty much what I've been doing naturally my whole adult life. Pretty much anathema to those who want you to KNOW that they're a 'Sheepdog'.
RogerinTPA
05-10-10, 17:45
can we retire "sheeple" to while we're at it?
Agreed.
Too many folks using Grossman's euphemisms and haven't read his books, to give the appearance of being "in the know".
Don't forget aobut the word "tactical." Is there a word more over used in the knife and gun world?
I like it as a concept, but people need to stop harping on about it. It loses it's message.
I don't even really like the concept.
The idea of semi-helpless and somewhat cowardly people that require the constant aid of morally and intellectually superior people to protect them (often from themselves) being the norm doesn't strike me as a healthy society.
Not that I am an idealist but aiming high never hurts.
Jay Cunningham
05-10-10, 18:51
I prefer "armed citizen" myself.
LockenLoad
05-10-10, 18:59
hate to say I am not tired of it, because I guess I would of had to be aware of that site before I opened this thread. I did not bother to read anything there just left, after clicking on your link.
Littlelebowski
05-10-10, 19:23
I prefer "armed citizen" myself.
Agreed.
the world is a corny place
Im not sure why people dont laugh more :D
I don't even really like the concept.
The idea of semi-helpless and somewhat cowardly people that require the constant aid of morally and intellectually superior people to protect them (often from themselves) being the norm doesn't strike me as a healthy society.
I always thought it was that 'sheepdogs' were only different in their capacity for violence, like the 'wolf'. There are always people who take things too far (harping on about it all the time), and misunderstand it. Anyone who takes the analogy and thinks 'sheepdog' status makes them somehow better is, I think, missing the point completely. I meant the original concept, which I don't think makes 'sheepdogs' out to be morally or intellectually superior.
But whatever. People go on about it too much anyway.:D
And yeah, Armed Citizen is probably the best label, if you want one at all. Or you can be like me and make sure it never comes up at all.:cool:
I don't even really like the concept.
The idea of semi-helpless and somewhat cowardly people that require the constant aid of morally and intellectually superior people to protect them (often from themselves) being the norm doesn't strike me as a healthy society.
You just summed up the same line of reasoning that was justified to create what was known as the Vanguard Party in early Communist Russia. Of which, Stalin was born.
The idea of the helpless masses being in need of protection is a common thread whenever you get people with totalitarian tendencies and a love for authority in any sort of group.
I've always been sick when I hear this term on gun forums for two reasons. One, I think about the people that use it freely and I find very little if no comfort in the fact that have this mentality. Two, every person I know that would "rise to the title" of "sheepdog" would never ever claim to be one, and sure as hell would never brag about it. I've always found the people that brag the most are the ones that freeze up the quickest, or over react and turn a very easy situation to deal with into a complete sh*t storm.
I always thought it was that 'sheepdogs' were only different in their capacity for violence, like the 'wolf'.
Anyone who takes the analogy and thinks 'sheepdog' status makes them somehow better is, I think, missing the point completely.
I don't want to get in a big debate about it, but Grossman seems to contradict himself on the subject.
And like I said I don't much care for the "sheep, sheepdog, wolf" concept, even if I understand the point of the analogy and the importance of mental conditioning in self defense, law enforcement or military training. Maybe the dislike is out of a kneejerk reaction on my part towards the elitist/authoritarian undertones that Dmcmanus touched on.
Grossman:
Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be.
In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.
Why would you call it a moral decision if choosing one way over another is morally equal? When you make moral decisions you are trying to decide what is right versus what is wrong or more right in the case of a choice between the lesser of two evils. Why is Grossman "proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs" if being a sheepdog isn't morally superior?
I like this better;
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."
Japanese Admiral Yamamoto, 1941 -borrowed from Artos's sig line-
Too bad those days are gone, and most of our enemies know it.
devildogljb
05-10-10, 23:11
Holy crap! I think Nutnfancy got banned from here.
I cant stand him i subcribed to him for a little while but onces i heard him say that iron sights are useless on a ar and every one should go to some type of eletronic sighting system i was shocked. I made a respectful comment saying every one should learn on iron sights at least up to 300 yards and then go to a eotech or what ever they wanted he deleted my comment and blocked me because people actaully commented and seen my point. But i think he gets paid by companies to say there stuff is great etc.
The concept has bothered me for a long time.
Why, for example, are the "sheep" entitled to the services of the "sheep dogs" when they do nothing to protect themselves? If you're gonna cower in the corner when confronted with evil, then maybe you're not worth the trouble and society would be better off without your kind. A few less emasculated metrosexuals might be a good thing for our society.
Why must the majority be allowed to play "sheep" in the first place? Maybe if society stopped giving the "sheep" an easy out, they might stand on their hind legs and do something.
I have the utmost respect for those in Law Enforcement and the Military that have the sense of duty and willingness to put their lives on the line for others. It would be nice, though, if a few more folks outside of the Military and Law Enforcement communities took the safety/defense of themselves and their families more seriously.
Or maybe I'm just tired, it's late and I need to sleep...
Cascades236
05-11-10, 05:24
Why, for example, are the "sheep" entitled to the services of the "sheep dogs" when they do nothing to protect themselves? If you're gonna cower in the corner when confronted with evil, then maybe you're not worth the trouble and society would be better off without your kind. A few less emasculated metrosexuals might be a good thing for our society.
On 9/11 multiple planes were overtook by persons armed with boxcutters and successfully crashed into multiple targets, causing casuality numbers into the thousands... remember that? Is everyone on those planes a meterosexual?
How many passengers were "never me", "someone else will" types? That's where I find relevance in the analogy. A little bit of when/then goes a long way.
Littlelebowski
05-11-10, 06:09
On 9/11 multiple planes were overtook by persons armed with boxcutters and successfully crashed into multiple targets, causing casuality numbers into the thousands... remember that? Is everyone on those planes a meterosexual?
How many passengers were "never me", "someone else will" types? That's where I find relevance in the analogy. A little bit of when/then goes a long way.
I don't know. Tell us, how many? It must be wonderful to know all.
rifleman2000
05-11-10, 07:20
The terms "sheep", "sheepdog", and "wolves", are terms that are applicable when describing people within context. I don't understand the problem with using them in discussions.
Littlelebowski
05-11-10, 07:24
The terms "sheep", "sheepdog", and "wolves", are terms that are applicable when describing people within context. I don't understand the problem with using them in discussions.
Because it's silly and overly judgmental. Applying animal labels to make one feel smug and powerful.
rifleman2000
05-11-10, 07:31
Because it's silly and overly judgmental. Applying animal labels to make one feel smug and powerful.
Not to argue with you because I respect your input. But to call someone smug and powerful for using the model is judgmental. The terms are just for a model. It is semantics, but I find through my experience that the model is relevant within context.
ETA: I am typing with a broken hand... feel like a sheep.
Littlelebowski
05-11-10, 07:36
It degrades into feelings of superiority and judgement from afar real fast. Witness Cascades236 smugly judging those that died on the planes that went down with no knowledge of what actually happened. Great example there.
I don't think that mature armed citizens need to compare themselves to animal husbandry and I also think that if you haven't been there and done that, then you're just hypothesizing with a biased eye towards your own future and most probably fictional actions.
rifleman2000
05-11-10, 07:45
It degrades into feelings of superiority and judgement from afar real fast. Witness Cascades236 smugly judging those that died on the planes that went down with no knowledge of what actually happened. Great example there.
I don't think that mature armed citizens need to compare themselves to animal husbandry and I also think that if you haven't been there and done that, then you're just hypothesizing with a biased eye towards your own future and most probably fictional actions.
I have not read Cascades236's post. I would submit that his attitude is at fault, not the model.
The author of the model has been there done that. I use it often because it works when trying to understand people's probable and witnessed reaction to certain scenarios. Certainly do not feel smug, for one thing it shows my own shortfalls within the context.
But again, broadly speaking, you are judging some that use the model and why they use it. I will not bore you with my resume, but to say that people that use the model are hypothetical is not always true.
Littlelebowski
05-11-10, 07:48
I think it simplifies things overmuch and I know people who have BTDT on both sides of this little debate but more so on the anti animal husbandry tactical term side.
rifleman2000
05-11-10, 07:53
I think it simplifies things overmuch and I know people who have BTDT on both sides of this little debate but more so on the anti animal husbandry tactical term side.
I agree it oversimplifies. In fact, it is way over-simplified. Which is why it is useful in some contexts. But I can think of many examples that it would not apply.
I think we can agree to disagree, all you points are valid mis-uses of the model but I think it is a valid model if not taken out of context.
Littlelebowski
05-11-10, 07:58
Works for me. Nice to see a civil debate.
The concept has bothered me for a long time.
Why, for example, are the "sheep" entitled to the services of the "sheep dogs" when they do nothing to protect themselves? If you're gonna cower in the corner when confronted with evil, then maybe you're not worth the trouble and society would be better off without your kind. A few less emasculated metrosexuals might be a good thing for our society.
Why must the majority be allowed to play "sheep" in the first place? Maybe if society stopped giving the "sheep" an easy out, they might stand on their hind legs and do something.
I have the utmost respect for those in Law Enforcement and the Military that have the sense of duty and willingness to put their lives on the line for others. It would be nice, though, if a few more folks outside of the Military and Law Enforcement communities took the safety/defense of themselves and their families more seriously.
Or maybe I'm just tired, it's late and I need to sleep...
having read Grossman's work, I'm kinda perplexed over the dispute his words are causing. he's not claiming sheep are an "entitled" portion of society, he's merely describing what is.
a certain portion of society has no potential for violence - even to the point of responding to violence itself in self-defense. another portion is capable of violence. some of those prey on the defenseless, and some of those choose to stand in defense
I do not begrudge the defenseless for needing protection. there's absolutely no way I could allow my wife or children to experience violence while I was present. nor could I imagine I would stand by if an innocent was being attacked.
I don't know if that makes me a sheepdog (it just might make me a dumbass) but I have experienced violence defending my wife and it wasn't any type of decision I had to make, I just found found myself doing it.
Grossman uses a simple analogy to describe what he sees and as far as that goes, it's valid. it's the people who overuse the phrase that the OP is objecting to...
(eta) and BTW, I'm typing with a broken hand too... :cool:
rifleman2000
05-11-10, 08:08
Grossman uses a simple analogy to describe what he sees and as far as that goes, it's valid. it's the people who overuse the phrase that the OP is objecting to...
Agreed.
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