View Full Version : NFA laws on possession and SBR changing lengths ?.(done deal pics showin.)
GunLovinTexan
05-13-07, 15:24
MY NFA dealer said that once the SBR is deamed an Approved NFA item it has no sporting purpose and aparently you dont have to tell them what length barrel it is after the fact. Also you can have the Upper in your possession before the lower because it is near impossible to prove "intent to create an SBR".
This is also why the M16's dont have to write a paper to the NFA branch everytime they change uppers.
Can anyone argue diffrently and show some evidence of the argument?
Thank you once agian in advanced to those that respond.
Rob
Razorhunter
05-13-07, 16:11
MY NFA dealer said that once the SBR is deamed an Approved NFA item it has no sporting purpose and aparently you dont have to tell them what length barrel it is after the fact. Also you can have the Upper in your possession before the lower because it is near impossible to prove "intent to create an SBR".
This is also why the M16's dont have to write a paper to the NFA branch everytime they change uppers.
Can anyone argue diffrently and show some evidence of the argument?
Thank you once agian in advanced to those that respond.
Rob
I'm not quite sure I understand what you're getting at here???
"Don't have to tell them after the fact"????
"M16's dont have to write a paper"???
GunLovinTexan
05-13-07, 17:18
your right paul my post wasnt clear.
What i was getting at is the M16's dont have to write a letter to the batf branch everytime they change upper lengths and the SBR (not full Auto) falls under the same catagory.
The fact that it may not be possible to prove that you knowingly & intentionally possesed a SBR prior to having an approved stamp does not negate the fact that constructive or physical possession of said item before hand is still illegal. Yes, it's tough for a federal agency such as the BATF&E to keep tabs on every AR owner that may have an unauthorized item in their possession, however, now you know & I personally wouldn't want to take the chance. Get your stamp first & then buy as many uppers that you want for each registered lower you own.
As far as an M16 writing a letter to the BATF&E to advise of an upper change, is that possible? Are you asking does the owner have to write them to advise? I think you are supposed to, but I've never heard of it being a problem if you don't. Just follow the instructions on the Form 1 & you will be ok as long as the new or swapped barrel length is in excess of what you already have registered. If you want to go shorter than what you have registered then you have to pay another $200 on another lower IIRC & list the shorter lenght.
I've never listed OAL & have always listed barrel length at 7" as well. All of us at work have done this & the forms were approved in less than 30 days accompanied with a dept. letterhead advising our intent & request for expedited processing. No Form 1's have been returned for clarification or correction in the process either.
GunLovinTexan
05-13-07, 21:08
Thank You Gunny.
Also just for clarification Gunny I have the Approved Tax Stamp and the Approved SBR in hand, the issue is having an upper that is shorter then the length listed on the form. Im planning on looking into becoming a police officer in the next 4 years (gotta finish college and some personal stuff) no weapon is worth ruining that chance.
I think i will write the ATF a curtorsy letter and just say 7 inches.
Rob
Razorhunter
05-13-07, 21:53
gunny,
So are you saying that if someone gets their NFA Tax Stamp for a SBR, then you can purchase MULTIPLE SBR uppers for a single lower???
That's what your post sounds like to me, but maybe I'm way off here. ????
I thought EACH SBR (upper) had to have it's own $200 NFA Tax Stamp, so in other words, EACH time you want to purchase an upper with a bbl less than 16", you had to pay $200 for another tax stamp...
????
Is this correct or what???
Also, can anyone here tell me if the required process to purchase an RDIAS (Registered Drop In Auto Sear) is the SAME process as purchasing a SBR or Suppressor?? (IOW, is it possible to also use Trust method, where you have to purchase a $200 NFA stamp???)
OR, is the process/legal route for a RDIAS DIFFERENT from that of suppressors and SBR's????
Thanks.
GunLovinTexan
05-13-07, 22:40
his post to me sounds like im screwed because i got 3 Colt 6921's all with 14.5 inch barrels that i cant do anything with because i cant use shorter barrels and i have a 9.25 inch upper with no home.
Rob
gunny,
So are you saying that if someone gets their NFA Tax Stamp for a SBR, then you can purchase MULTIPLE SBR uppers for a single lower???
That's what your post sounds like to me, but maybe I'm way off here. ????
I thought EACH SBR (upper) had to have it's own $200 NFA Tax Stamp, so in other words, EACH time you want to purchase an upper with a bbl less than 16", you had to pay $200 for another tax stamp...
????
Is this correct or what???
Also, can anyone here tell me if the required process to purchase an RDIAS (Registered Drop In Auto Sear) is the SAME process as purchasing a SBR or Suppressor?? (IOW, is it possible to also use Trust method, where you have to purchase a $200 NFA stamp???)
OR, is the process/legal route for a RDIAS DIFFERENT from that of suppressors and SBR's????
Thanks.
Paul...Neg, you don't have to pay for an additional stamp each time you want to swap uppers on an already registered lower. For example, you have one registered lower & you listed a barrel length of 10" on your first & only Form 1 X years ago. You have BRD real bad this year & want a BCM 11.5" & 14.5"....You can buy them & add to your already registered SBR lower, no sweat w/out having to register another lower. I need to clarify this, but if you wanted to go shorter than what you origonally registered on a Form 1 then you would not be able to do so legally w/out registering another lower to put it on IIRC. However, you may be able to circumvent the latter scenario by contacting the ATF to annotate the shorter barrel length.
I've never had the need or want to go shorter than that yet even though 7" is the shortest barrel length I've listed on my Form 1's just in case I ever decide that's what I want. I've registered a few lowers as insurance due to the type of work I do since I'm afraid one may be destroyed. People are totalling our squads in crashes more frequently than the city would like & a few rifles have already had to have been written off:mad: I don't wanna be SOL if that happens so a few SBR lowers are a good idea for me.
If you are a millionaire & want to go FA then I believe it's Form 4 transfer. You cannot manufacture your own FA on a weapon manufactured prior to 5/1986 is what I was told. You can buy one that was made before that time & have it transferred to you on a Form 4 stamp plus pay the multi thousands of dollars in addition to buy the gun itself. But, I'm not sure about what it takes to legally have a drop in sear. I don't want to give you bad info on the FA route so someone with diffinent knowledge on that matter, please add what you know.
It used to be possible to register an SBR with rather vague terminology like "under 16 inches", and people would do that to cover their ass if they wanted to swap out their uppers to various lengths. Lately (as in, the last couple of years) the ATF has cracked down on this and you must put an actual barrel length in the box.
Frankly though, I've never understood why people would want to change out to multiple different barrel lengths all on the same lower. I guess it's a cost issue with paying the $200 to register additonal lowers?
Still, I can't really imagine the ATF making a case against someone that registered an SBR with a 10.5" barrel and put a 7.5" upper on it.
and Paul, as has already been posted and just to second it, it's the lower that's the regsistered SBR, not the upper.
So,
let me get this right then. It is better just to register your SBR as having the smallest barrell length that you would ever put on it and then you wouldnt have to worry about putting a larger one on??
IE registers at 7.5 and not worry about putting a 10 on?
tiger seven
05-14-07, 12:19
I'm still new to this NFA/Title II thing (my first SBR is approved but still unfinished) but I was under the impression that you only had to notify the ATF if you make any permanent modifications to the weapon as it is listed on your Form 1. Since swapping an upper is not considered a permanent modification, do you really need to worry about it?
I'm aware that you can always CYA by sending them a notification/addendum/whatever that says what additional new barrel-length uppers you acquire. I'm guessing they just add that paperwork to your file. Is that a good idea? Or is that unnecessary?
Derek
Robb Jensen
05-14-07, 12:22
I sent a letter to ATF for each of my SBRs telling them other barrel lengths that I'll ever use on them. They sent back a confirmation. It may not be required but what's it gonna hurt?
tiger seven
05-14-07, 12:29
I sent a letter to ATF for each of my SBRs telling them other barrel lengths that I'll ever use on them. They sent back a confirmation. It may not be required but what's it gonna hurt?
Do you send those to the same Martinsburg, WV address as the Form 1's?
Derek
It used to be possible to register an SBR with rather vague terminology like "under 16 inches", and people would do that to cover their ass if they wanted to swap out their uppers to various lengths. Lately (as in, the last couple of years) the ATF has cracked down on this and you must put an actual barrel length in the box.
I've been doing this for the past year - last one was approved just about a month ago (and in only 11 days). From what I've heard, the ATF is actually approving more forms like this than they did in the past.
Frankly though, I've never understood why people would want to change out to multiple different barrel lengths all on the same lower. I guess it's a cost issue with paying the $200 to register additonal lowers?
While I can't speak for everyone, flexibility is the main reason for me. I don't do it because I plan on having 15 uppers for the same lower, but needs and wants change after time. The last lower that I SBR'ed is setup in a 9mm configuration. Maybe a year or two from now I decide that I don't want an extra 9mm gun anymore and I decide to change it to a 6.8 SPC. If I only listed one caliber and length on my Form 1, then "technically" I'd be stuck with a lower that should only be used in that specific configuration - whereas with the "not so specific" info, I'm pretty much free to do as I please.
You DO NOT need to go through another lower and another registration process just to use a shorter upper. You SHOULD write them the letter they ask for though any time you change whether it be shorter or longer I suppose.
Rob- what are you doing with three 14.5" uppers? hanging onto them for kicks? I wouldn't see a problem with that as long as you don't have one SBR lower and two 'regular' lowers with no uppers and wear marks on the mounting points ;)
dakotalawdog
05-17-07, 19:24
One trick for next time - for length and barrel size just put "under 26 inches" and "under 16."
I also put 5.56mm/9mm/6.8mm so if I ever want a different caliber upper, I'm covered.
It is just about added flexibility. If you can do it, why not? This way if for some reason, I ever want or need to throw on a different upper, I'm covered.
Remember, the lower receiver is the actual firearm, and is the only thing registered. I believe you can switch barrel lengths to whatever you want. An SBR is a rifle with a barrel length of under 16" or overall length under 26, " so once you have a tax stamp for an SBR, you should be good to go. I can't say for absolute certainty however, so I'd call NFA
They're actually very helpful and can answer your question for sure.
NFA Branch 304 616-4500
ETA:
Someone was asking about registered drop in auto sears. If the sear is registered, it is the "machine gun" itself. You can put it in a post 1986 upper and still be legal. However, I believe they cost around $10,000 - $15,000 last I heard, so you might as well just buy a pre 1986 M16.
http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html
Again, check with the ATF first.
One trick for next time - for length and barrel size just put "under 26 inches" and "under 16."
I also put 5.56mm/9mm/6.8mm so if I ever want a different caliber upper, I'm covered.
It is just about added flexibility. If you can do it, why not? This way if for some reason, I ever want or need to throw on a different upper, I'm covered.
Remember, the lower receiver is the actual firearm, and is the only thing registered. I believe you can switch barrel lengths to whatever you want. An SBR is a rifle with a barrel length of under 16" or overall length under 26, " so once you have a tax stamp for an SBR, you should be good to go. I can't say for absolute certainty however, so I'd call NFA
They're actually very helpful and can answer your question for sure.
NFA Branch 304 616-4500
ETA:
Someone was asking about registered drop in auto sears. If the sear is registered, it is the "machine gun" itself. You can put it in a post 1986 upper and still be legal. However, I believe they cost around $10,000 - $15,000 last I heard, so you might as well just buy a pre 1986 M16.
http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html
Again, check with the ATF first.
We addressed all of your comments on generic sizes and anymore, you can't just put generic numbers in all of the spaces to CYA in every manner. You need to put specifics that you can add to at a later point in time.
GunLovinTexan
05-23-07, 16:49
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Bizkets/NEwpics23073.jpg
Thanks for your help guys.
Yeah, Rob, flip those sights around.
The rear for sure- the adjustments won't work right if you don't.
Nice though!
GunLovinTexan
05-23-07, 20:09
LOL, well atleast you didnt comment on the POF uppers.....
I knew youd find something though.....:D
Thanx for the heads up man, lol didnt realize that i put them on backwards...i was too excited to get it together and take pics.
Heres some more pics..I have 3 consectivly numberd Colt 6921's
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Bizkets/NEwpics23023.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Bizkets/NEwpics23033.jpg
So those are the ones I've been hearing all about huh?
Dang buddy!
Wait, did you say you didn't realize you put it together and took pics? You can put together ARs sleepwalking now!! You should start a business. Lay out all the parts before you go to bed and when you wake up, VOILA! New ARs, just like Christmas!! You won't have any employees complaining about the night shift, that's for sure!
GunLovinTexan
05-23-07, 20:34
Smart-a$$......i didnt realize i put them on backwards.......im gonna stay outta that buisness for awhile :D
Yup man those are the ones you were hearing about luckly, went and picked them up today. Also dropped off my other SBR lower to the C3 for selling. It was all part of the deal.
TUNNEL RAT 33
05-23-07, 20:38
nice collection !!! how does the pof shoot for you ? i got one on order, was told 14 weeks , i'm on week 10 and trying to not think about the wait .
GunLovinTexan
05-23-07, 20:44
POF works well... I like the system i think its the best Gas Piston readily available. It runs cooler and requires no lube but i do it anyway...If you have questions on the system i will happly answer them.
I wasn't trying to bust your chops. I was trying to be a little funny and put you at ease if I made you feel silly the first time I pointed it out. I didn't want it to seem that I pointed it out for the sole purpose of pointing.
;)
GunLovinTexan
05-23-07, 21:29
Ill get ya back one day bro, no worryies ;)
its all in good fun man i know :)
Rob
I gotta get up some pics of my SBR lower with it's new upper- an 11.5" Bravo Company upper I just scored.
http://www.zoto.com/suicidehz/img/800x600/3aa0291aa957c53ec3d2b41e770e4224.jpg
Noveske lower
BCM 11.5" upper
shaved gas block
DD 10.0 M4 handguards
Eotech 512
G5 Vortex- should I put the A2 back on?
GunLovinTexan
05-23-07, 22:56
I hear BCM uppers kick a$$ lemme know how it works.
How long was the wait for the POF?
Is that the 9 inch?
I have one of the 16 inch uppers and I like it, just kind of heavy.
ATF just cashed my check last week so I am looking for about a 10 inch upper.
I will be running mine suppressed.
:cool:
GunLovinTexan
05-29-07, 16:34
SuicideHZ your SBR looks tight man.
That is the 9.25 upper. The wait is a gripe but i get mine from dealers that have them in stock.
My last came from HkSpecialist.
Rob
Thanks Rob. It will be sporting KAC front and rear BUIS by the end of the week. The front cost me over $160 but the rear 300m I got for $50 or so as one of many brought back from Iraq over a year ago. So altogether, the pair will be quite a few bones less than a Troy set which was the runner up in the decision...
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/Bizkets/NEwpics23073.jpg
Thanks for your help guys.
Nice shorty! It resembles a little bulldog with HUGE balls... :eek:
I can confirm ATF's rejection of "under 16 inches" as the barrel length. This happened to me less than a year ago when I SBRed my Uzi carbine. I was sent my Form 1 back asking for clarification.
I woiuld recommend putting the shortest length barrel you think you'll ever use in the box, then put in the appropriate OAL.
The good news is approval is now lightning fast (at least by ATF standards). My SBR Form 1 approval, including the above mentioned problem, was less than 30 days.
Can anybody name even one example were somebody has gotten into trouble for this? I'm talking about using longer but still NFA length uppers on a SBR registered lower. Personally, I've never worried about it.
I doubt there's any real documented cases we can even research on it.
But, you'll always have someone telling you that you can't go shorter or you should register as a 7" to cover all bases. I would think if the ATF cared, they wouldn't be happy to find out you initially started with an 11.5" and went to 10.3" and never even touched a 7" but put it on your form to "be safe."
My two cents.
ATF informed me last December that I had to list a specific barrel length on the form.
Robb Jensen
02-12-08, 05:06
ATF informed me last December that I had to list a specific barrel length on the form.
You're correct. The debate is about AFTER you have an approved Form 1 or Form 4 for a SBR or machinegun.
For instance, If your Form 1 reads that your SBR has a 11.5" 5.56mm barrel on it, and then you start using a 10.5" 9x19mm upper on it..... people are asking do you have to notify ATF?
I did notify them for my SBRs (3 ARs) I notified them of every caliber and barrel length possible, I'm a CYA kind of guy.;)
Is it required? I don't know.
pure opinion here:
I don't know if anyone has written ATF and asked for a clarification on this. I don't think it's required and don't need a clarification because (thinking logically) it's a non-permanent change for an AR type rifle. I think it's the same logic in using a .22 conversion kit (i.e. Ceiner/Kimber/Advantage Arms/Beretta) on a pistol frame, you don't have to notify ATF that you've made a new pistol when using one on your pistol frame).
I would for sure notify ATF for changing a barrel length on an AK since it's pretty permanent, (quite harder to change barrels/calibers vs. an AR).
My M16 is registered in .22, 9mm and .223. and the OAL is measured with the 8" 22 upper (which is the shortest one I own), I just added a 14.5" to the list but I really didnt plan on sending a letter since its over the min OAL.
If I had to write a letter every time I changed uppers Id be sending 10 letters a week.:(
JESUS there's a lot of people who like to dry hump the ATF. :rolleyes:
Common sense goes a long way in the NFA game, fr00ts!
And if I read this constructive intent crap again.... :mad: Gee I have beer in my fridge and a car in my garage.... that's constructive intent to drive drunk.
Robb Jensen
02-12-08, 08:00
JESUS there's a lot of people who like to dry hump the ATF. :rolleyes:
Common sense goes a long way in the NFA game, fr00ts!
And if I read this constructive intent crap again.... :mad: Gee I have beer in my fridge and a car in my garage.... that's constructive intent to drive drunk.
You like everyone here is entitled to your opinion (and you know about opinions). IIRC the ATF was alerted to WACO because a delivery driver saw a blue inert (aka dummy) hand grenade (which was not even regulated by ATF). And because of ATFs history now some people walk on egg shells around firearms regulations.
My reply was directed towards the comments about listing multiple lengths. Sorry if it was off topic.
And because of ATFs history now some people walk on egg shells around firearms regulations.
Under the next administration, ATF could go back to its Janet Reno glory days or worse, I suppose! :eek:
Army Chief
02-12-08, 12:45
We've covered this ground many times before, but I still believe the best way to deal with SBR legalities "in good faith" is to file the original application with the barrel length that you actually intend to use, just as we've always been instructed to do. In legal terms, once the rifle enters the NFA registry as an SBR, the heavy lifting is over.
As GotM4 stated, if you want to add a different barrel length/upper later on, the best course of action is to just give BATF a heads-up in writing that "my registered SBR, serial number so-and-so is also being used with barrel lengths of 10" and 11.5" (or what-have-you), and you're covered.
It's a win-win: your SBR will still be an SBR, and you've made full disclosure to the agency responsible for maintaining the records that authorize you to own it. Should anything be called into question later, you will have the requisite annotations in the file, and a BATF confirmation letter to make things manifestly clear to anyone with a need or compelling desire to know.
Chief
We've covered this ground many times before, but I still believe the best way to deal with SBR legalities "in good faith" is to file the original application with the barrel length that you actually intend to use, just as we've always been instructed to do. In legal terms, once the rifle enters the NFA registry as an SBR, the heavy lifting is over.
As GotM4 stated, if you want to add a different barrel length/upper later on, the best course of action is to just give BATF a heads-up in writing that "my registered SBR, serial number so-and-so is also being used with barrel lengths of 10" and 11.5" (or what-have-you), and you're covered.
It's a win-win: your SBR will still be an SBR, and you've made full disclosure to the agency responsible for maintaining the records that authorize you to own it. Should anything be called into question later, you will have the requisite annotations in the file, and a BATF comfirmation letter to make things manifestly clear to anyone with a need or compelling desire to know.
Chief
Sounds like the best advice.
Is there a form for this by any chance?
I've read for years that all you had to do to cross a state line was write to them. There's actually a form that needs to be filled out with more than a serial number.
Robb Jensen
02-12-08, 19:33
Is there a form for this by any chance?
I've read for years that all you had to do to cross a state line was write to them. There's actually a form that needs to be filled out with more than a serial number.
Not a Form for notifying that you'll use different lengths/calibers. I just used a formal letter and made a copy of my Form 1s.
For traveling interstate travel you'll need the 5320.20 Form.
Yes. I found that out 3 days before intended travel date. Luckily Derek got me set straight on who to give a ring.
They accept faxed forms by the way.
So reading through this let me see if I have it all down.
I just sent my lower to Orion to have it engraved with my trust info. When it comes back I am going to send in my form 1, so that if anything happens to the lower in transit it isn't my registered one.
I listed barrel length on my yet to be subitted form 1 as 10.5" and the corresponding OAL as I plan on getting a LMT 10.5" upper.
To be in the right I should probably mail the ATF a letter also listing my 16" middy upper and any sunsequent uppers I may purchase? Include it with the original form 1 or mail after form 1 is approved?
If I were to go ahead and order the 10.5 and have it shipped and stored at an alternative location would I be GTG? Or just wait for everything to come through in due time?
Thanks for clearing up my confusion. This will be my first NFA item.
-RD62
Don't need to tell them about a 16" upper.
Tell them what you are building on the form1. Tell them about the 11.5" or other afterwards.
To be in the right I should probably mail the ATF a letter also listing my 16" middy upper and any sunsequent uppers I may purchase? Include it with the original form 1 or mail after form 1 is approved?
I have no idea why you'd do this.
If I were to go ahead and order the 10.5 and have it shipped and stored at an alternative location would I be GTG? Or just wait for everything to come through in due time?
There's no way I'd wait. And I don't know where this separate location internut myth started, but it is what it is. I call it the grandma's house myth.
Here's where common sense kicks in. Order your upper, have it ready for when your papers arrive. Don't build anything until you're golden. It's just that simple.
My M16 is registered in .22, 9mm and .223. and the OAL is measured with the 8" 22 upper (which is the shortest one I own), I just added a 14.5" to the list but I really didnt plan on sending a letter since its over the min OAL.
If I had to write a letter every time I changed uppers Id be sending 10 letters a week.:(
If you're talking about an actual FA M16, then you don't have to register any change. There is no such thing as an SBR machine gun. Once you are registered Title II, you can do pretty much anything you want with it as far as configuration goes.
Demigod,
Thanks for the info. It seemed like I was getting some conflicting info, or I was just reading it wrong. I didn't think that you'd need to advise for a legal upper, but after reading some posts I wasn't sure.
Like I said it's my first NFA so I'm a little "gun shy". So go ahead and order the upper?
I agree with your constructive intent statement, and the difficulty of proving intent, which my only intent is to assemble the upper and lower when legal to do so. I can't find anything in my copy of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide to say that possesion of a short barrel or short barreled upper constitutes constructive intent, but I don't want a late night visit from the ATF fairy either.
-RD62
So go ahead and order the upper?
I'm only saying I WOULD!!!! I'd already be caressing it as we speak.
But "a man's got to know his limitations".
CarlosDJackal
02-14-08, 17:55
Not a Form for notifying that you'll use different lengths/calibers. I just used a formal letter and made a copy of my Form 1s...
When I called the NFA branch about possibly adding a 9mm upper to my SBR, they recommended that I just send them a letter (as quoted by gotM4 above). The chances of the ATF coming after me for doing so without first sending them this letter is probably very slim.
But then again, so are the chances of someone winning the lottery or getting hit by lightning. Unlike some opinionated individuals on the internet, I not very willing to increase my chances of becoming the poster boy for any such Case Laws in this particular topic.
RD62 - the best advice I can give you at the moment is that you should keep in mind that you get what you pay for as far as legal advice on the internet is concerned. Is it really that much effort to send such a letter? JM2CW. :rolleyes:
RD62 - the best advice I can give you at the moment is that you should keep in mind that you get what you pay for as far as legal advice on the internet is concerned. Is it really that much effort to send such a letter?
No it's not. And I agree about the value of free advice, I take it all with a grain of salt. But I do appreciate all of it. Especially from folks like Demigod and GotM4 who have more experience in this area than I do.
I'll probably send a letter just to be safe. As I said I didn't think that you would necessarily need to for a 16" upper, but might for a 14.5", or 12" or whatever, but I'll probably do it for the extra peace of mind if nothing else.
Thanks to everyone, and I look forward to showing off my new creation when everything is finalized!
-RD62
For one of you guys who have sent in a letter listing other barrel lengths. Could you post an example of the letter, What other paper work was included and where did you send it?
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