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VA_Dinger
05-13-07, 20:08
These guys are heading home so it's time to start the class #1 AAR thread. Considering it's a low light class I'm not really expecting many photos, but you never know.

Sam
05-13-07, 20:33
Maybe someone had one of those fancy night vision camera :p

I'll have to call Ken for the AAR from the instructors' point of view, I'll let him sleep tonight though.

C4IGrant
05-13-07, 20:39
Just got back and settled in. Will post some info later about the class, but all I can say is that it was hands down, one of the best training classes I have ever attended!




C4

Eric Rice
05-13-07, 21:10
Just got back and settled in. Will post some info later about the class, but all I can say is that it was hands down, one of the best training classes I have ever attended!

C4

ROGER THAT, Brother!

"I don't care if you have to whore out your wife..." Dudes, take this class.

subzero
05-14-07, 00:07
Just got home. Good class. Eye opener.

John_Wayne777
05-14-07, 09:06
I'm eager to hear some feedback. I'm scheduled to take this class in September.

KevinB
05-14-07, 11:30
damn,

But for one insurgent ambush screwing everying my original leave dates would have been during this....

I need one in Mid Oct-Mid Nov period.
PLEASE.
I'm begging.

subzero
05-14-07, 11:32
To sum it up in as few words as possible, fighting at night sucks. It’s an environment that turns easy tasks hard, and hard tasks nearly impossible. The “reptilian brain” or “caveman brain” is what’s controlling a lot of what you do. Remaining switched on enough to think is tough, even when the bad guys aren’t shooting back.

I don’t think this class was appropriate for everyone. I thought it and heard it a few times over the weekend: I can’t believe this class didn’t require some kind of prerequisite to get in. NO time was spent on the basics like marksmanship or zeroing. If you didn’t show up ready to go with a decent skill set already at your disposal, this class would have left you in the dust at dusk on day one. I was yanked out of my comfort zone within one hour of starting on the first day. It was nerve racking and intense. So intense, that I turned down the opportunity to shoot an FA Colt SMG, because the situation we were in was already intense enough, I didn’t want the added pressure of shooting a long gun that I wasn’t intimately familiar with.

This class was unique in that Vickers and Hackathorn actually acted as two lead instructors, one teaching carbine stuff, the other teaching pistol stuff. This was my third (I think) class with LAV, and I’m familiar and comfortable with how he goes about instructing. I can only hope the “short bus crew” doesn’t find themselves to greatly offended to realize that LAV was only helping them out by getting on them the way he did. It was my first time training with Ken Hackathorn, and it seems as though he and LAV are cut from the same cloth.

Highlights:

- Since we didn’t get started until 3pm on the first day, Chris and I found ourselves with a bit of time to spare in Parkersburg West VA. Guess what’s in Parkersburg? If you guessed Novak’s Gun Shop, you are correct. We took a quick tour of the place and saw lots and lots of neat stuff if you’re a 1911 freakazoid.

- As previously mentioned, once we got started I got yanked out of my comfort zone pretty quick. After a quick warmup, you’re doing stuff most of us don’t get the chance to do on our square ranges at home.

- Shooting an M&P 45 (with manual safety) and H&K 45 back to back was neat. Once again, H&K manages to disappoint. The M&P 45 shot okay at speed but felt like it needed a trigger job in slow fire. The manual safety pulled my right thumb up away from the slide release just like a 1911. Yeah buddy. The H&K’s safety/decocker lever is something I’ve never been a fan of and within one magazine it bit me (pulled trigger all the way to the rear with no bang because my thumb was pulling down on the safety/decocker). I swear H&K doesn’t design guns for humans. The M&P is the clear winner between the two. The M&P is destined to end up on my hip at some point or another.

- The classes that I have taken to this point underscore certain fundamentals about marksmanship. It became alarmingly clear why the focus is there during this class. The nice little groups I was doing at speed during the day doubled in size at night. Continually striving for better accuracy seems to be a must, because everything you do past standing at 25 yards shooting bullseyes can and will degrade your accuracy, and thus your potential to deliver a fight-ending shot.

- I can’t imagine shooting that class without CT Lasergrips on the handgun. They supplement your own ability to quickly and accurately get shots on target in low/no light (especially since most of it was strong hand only) like nothing else on the market. Simon’s quote from a few classes back holds true: “Not having these on your handgun is like not having a red dot on your rifle.”

- The only equipment malfunction I experienced was a broken cross bolt on my Knight’s rear BUIS. Had to break out the backup carbine just before it got dark, which could have been bad but ended up not being an issue at all.

- Two rifle magazines plus one in the gun, 4-5 1911 mags plus one in the gun seemed to be enough to not hold up the rest of the group. Chris and I have evolved towards a minimalist approach to gear in these classes, and I think it’s working out pretty well. Of course, many people felt differently and were decked out with so much stuff I thought they were about to invade France. I think there’s merit to both approaches.

- The evening meal on Saturday was so good it seemed a shame we had to get up and start doing stuff again.

- Round count by my estimation was about 650 rifle and 600 handgun. In speaking with Chris afterwards, we couldn’t think of a place where they could have worked in more rounds without them starting to lose a bit of training value.

- I’ve seen a few night fire demos before in talking about flash, but I had never shot my 45 carry ammo at night. I knew the TAP 9mm in my Glock puts out a bit of flash, but the fireball coming out of a 45 shooting 230gr Golden Saber is retarded. I’m switching to Ranger SXTs as soon as I can.


That's all for now. I'm sure other folks will have more interesting stuff to say.

Aubrey
05-14-07, 12:01
subzero,
Very nice AAR. Thanks for taking the time.

I'm curious to hear lessons learned from all attending on weapon-mounted lights as well as tertiary/hand-held lights (i.e., what worked well and why, what sucked and why...). Many thanks in advance.

Eric Rice
05-14-07, 12:11
subzero,

I'm curious to hear lessons learned from all attending on weapon-mounted lights as well as tertiary/hand-held lights (i.e., what worked well and why, what sucked and why...). Many thanks in advance.

As always, it pays to have both weapon-mounted, and hand-held. I rarely used the light on my sidearm. I was faster with the hand-held and the pistol.

An X200A died (and separately the DG switch) that's been on the pistol for less than 900 rds. Switched to TLR-1 and rolled on...

John_Wayne777
05-14-07, 12:54
This class was unique in that Vickers and Hackathorn actually acted as two lead instructors, one teaching carbine stuff, the other teaching pistol stuff. This was my third (I think) class with LAV, and I’m familiar and comfortable with how he goes about instructing. I can only hope the “short bus crew” doesn’t find themselves to greatly offended to realize that LAV was only helping them out by getting on them the way he did. It was my first time training with Ken Hackathorn, and it seems as though he and LAV are cut from the same cloth.


Interesting....

Could you give a description of what "getting on them" means?

I've only done a two day training with him, but even in that short of a time span I learned that he'll ask you what the window you are licking tastes like when you do something wrong....

:D



- As previously mentioned, once we got started I got yanked out of my comfort zone pretty quick. After a quick warmup, you’re doing stuff most of us don’t get the chance to do on our square ranges at home.


Sounds familiar.

I had the same experience in the AK class. I was extremely frustrated with my performance because I have a number of training courses under my belt and yet I felt like a rank noob. I thought it was mostly the unfamiliar platform, but Larry's approach to movement and a number of other things is different than what I have trained on before.

It's possible, I suppose, to become too familiar and too comfortable with certain ways of doing things. Having someone come along and shake things up a bit is a good thing.



- Two rifle magazines plus one in the gun, 4-5 1911 mags plus one in the gun seemed to be enough to not hold up the rest of the group.


Larry doesn't like to have people burn too much ammo during a course. When we took the AK class he said that he tries to stick to a max of around 400 rounds a day because in his experience that's the most useful shooting you can get out of someone in a single day.

I would be interested in hearing exactly what about the course challenged folks, as in what particular drills the found monkeying them up, etc.

CarlosDJackal
05-14-07, 13:31
I was one of those people who brought a lot of crap to this training course. This included two backup carbines and two backup pistols. Why? Because I would hate to spend all that time and money to go to a training course only to sit on the sidelines and watch instead of participating.

Of course, there is usually someone willing to loan out their equipment, but I have seen this play havoc where the piece of equipment is not zeroed or set up to the user thus interfering with the training (individually or to the group). As we used to say in the Arctic: "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." :D

For the most part I also chose to wear my plate carrier (with and wihtout the plates) and the all the mags I can carry on it so that I can identify any kind of equipment issue that may affect my ability to fight. This gave the opportunity to actually use pieces of equipment that I have the rare chance to use (IE: Kevlar helmet).

Any kind of task that is done in low-light or no-light will amplify your deficiencies. In my case one of my most glaring deficiency was the use of the basic fundamentals of marksmanship in both the carbine and pistol. To say it bluntly, my accuracy sucks. The great thing about this course was there were two very competent instructors who caught onto this very early and kept emphasizing this fact throughout.

The fault lies purely on me - I just have not spent enough time practicing these fundamentals at the range or at home. Not to make excuses, but my work schedule has not allowed me to visit the range with the great regularity I need in order to maintain my proficiency. The hangun I used in the course (Glock 35 with ITI M-3 light) is my duty handgun and in the last six months I have only shot a grand total of 100 rounds thought it and this was done in two qualification sessions for the Sheriff's Office. Pretty sad, isn't it? I've shot even less of any of my carbines in that period.

My final round count for this course was 620 rounds for my carbine and 330 rounds for the pistol (both approximates). As much stuff as we were put through, I was surprised at this count. It seemd like the round count should have been higher. Despite this, the downtime was not only very minimal but the range sessions were very fruitfull. This very much falls in line with both Instructor's emphasis on quality versus quantity when it comes to your shots.

In trying to make notes (during the drive home - since I was not driving) the lessons I learned from this course, I found myself at a loss. I can recall a lot of these lessons and put them to use, but cannot put it down on paper. It is like these were somehow "programmed" into my hardware without the use of written code. However, the most relevant technique that I was able to write down were the two malfunction clearance drills that was very optimized for both day and night use. These techniques are now an important part of my AR skills toolkit.

For me, the most relevant of the three-day course was the second day (the longest day). The amount of information that was thrown at us could fill quite a few pages (if I could pen them down :D ). If you ever get a chance to take this course but can only attend a single day, opt to attend the second day. NOTE: I am neither advocating nor recommending that anyone try this because the course was thaught using the tried-and-true "crawl-walk-run" method of instruction. Each day builds on the previous one.

Bottom line is, if you've never found the boundaries of your "comfort zone" in using either the carbine or pistol; attend this class and you probably will. If you do attend this course and do not find yourself challenged, you should probably consider organizing and teaching a similar course of your own.

This is also not a first timer's course. If you have never taken any kind of (quality) carbine or handgun course, you would be doing the rest of the class, the instructors, and yourself a great dis-service by attending this course. Just the safety aspect of having a new shooter who may not be as well-versed in safe gun-handling can easily put the others at risk (I actually witnessed a couple of cases of this and took what I thought was the appropriate actions).

I learned some new techniques and received some very pragmatic/realistic answers to some of my questions. Personally, this is how I like it. It is virtually impossible for any one person to have all of the answers and I am very suspicious of anyone who can come up with a specific answer to very general and situation-dependent questions. Neither Larry nor Ken tried to blow smoke up out fourth-points-of-contact. CAVEAT: I have yet to attend any tactical, academic, or technical course where I agreed with the instructor(s) 100%. The day that I find myself in such a situation is the day that I die because I am probably learning from God Almighty himself. Until then, I just take note of the lessons and do a continuous (objective) evaluation of these both during and after the class.

My Tactical Toolbox has once again been replenished and is once again overflowing. Now I need to take the time to use these new tools along with the old ones in order to determine which ones I can keep and which ones I should set aside.

Muchos kudos to Larry, Ken, and those who assisted them this weekend. I look forward to a course that could possibly build upon this one (hint-hint); if they allow me to attend it anyway.

ADDED: I held off purchasing a Vickers sling because I did not understand what its advantages were over what I already had. Fortunately, Grant of G&R Tactical was attending this course and had one that fit my setup and hooked me up (Thanks Grant!!). The sling works as advertised and will be getting a workout and possible more of a review.

NOTE: Did you know that the Vickers sling was named after the same guy to whom the Vickers scoring system was named after? :p

ADDED: Based on what we were shown and what we were told, I am almost convinced on the merits of having a laser mounted on your fighting handgun. I'm seriously considering getting one for my duty gun (Glock 35) for further self-evaluation.

C4IGrant
05-14-07, 14:49
Where to begin. I guestimate that I have over four-hundred hours of tactical carbine and pistol training (not counting what I got in the Navy). So it is somewhat hard to hit me with something that makes a REAL impact in how I shoot or operate. This class taught me many new things and has greatly improved my night fighting techniques. Take this class if at all possible!

My two favorite parts of the class were getting the oportunity (thanks Larry) to run my DBAL-A2 and my PVS-14. I used no white light and engaged targets standing and moving. With this capability, it was like shooting fish in a bucket. My group size was similar to that of a day shoot! Fantastic capability IMHO.

The second best part was going through the shoot house in two man teams. Clearing rooms with another person is not something many of use Civy's get to do (in the dark with live fire). Not only are you worried about accidentially shooting your partner, but making sure you get good hits on the bad guys and leaving the good guys untouched. This was harder than I thought and managed to kill some targets that I shouldn't have. :D Then again, they were in the same room with the bad guys so they were guilty as far as I am concerned. :eek:

All of my gear ran just fine less a hammer spring. Flashlights used were the SF X200B, SF M3, custom SF M600A and G2 with CREE LED and the light saver strobing tailcap (good combo).

Recommendations to future class attendees:

1. Attend a Basic Carbine School
2. Attend a Basic Pistol School
3. 6V weaponlight mounted on carbine
4. 6V weaponlight mounted on pistol
5. 6V handheld light
6. Two point sling
7. Aimpoint or EOTech Optic


Funniest quote I heard from LAV: "Dude, the night fighting capability of your gun is so bad that I am thinking of crushing up some lightning bugs and putting them on your front sight post."

I think I wet myself when I heard this. :D




C4

Sam
05-14-07, 14:55
NOTE: Did you know that the Vickers sling was named after the same guy to whom the Vickers scoring system was named after? :p

Yeah, back in 2000, we held our first IDPA state championship match and I was an SO at a stage. The first group of shooters of that cool October morning that waited to shoot my stage were listening to me brief them on the course of fire, as a briefed them on the type of scoring system, the man that designed the system was among that crowd waiting to shoot. :) He was the first shooter I ran that day, and ended up as the match winner.

Joe Mamma
05-14-07, 16:40
Recommendations to future class attendees:

1. Attend a Basic Carbine School
2. Attend a Basic Pistol School
3. 6V weaponlight mounted on carbine
4. 6V weaponlight mounted on pistol
5. 6V handheld light
6. Two point sling
7. Aimpoint or EOTech Optic

C4

That's too bad because my weapon lights are on a shotgun and pistols.

My carbine is an AK which doesn't take a light easily. But, I would love to take this class.

Joe Mamma

C4IGrant
05-14-07, 16:53
That's too bad because my weapon lights are on a shotgun and pistols.

My carbine is an AK which doesn't take a light easily. But, I would love to take this class.

Joe Mamma

Your on M4C and don't own an AR??? :eek:



C4

NCPatrolAR
05-14-07, 17:02
I'm toying with the idea of doing the September class with an AK.

CarlosDJackal
05-14-07, 17:10
That's too bad because my weapon lights are on a shotgun and pistols.

My carbine is an AK which doesn't take a light easily. But, I would love to take this class.

Joe Mamma

Look into the different rail options for AKs. I would not recommend attending this course without a weaponslight on your carbine. You can do fine without one on your pistol though. I also highly recommend a good reflex sight on your carbine. JM2CW.

Fongman
05-14-07, 17:19
Great reviews - thanks for taking the time to share them.

Grant,

How did you run your PVS-14? Head mounted or weapon mounted?

Thanks,
JWL

C4IGrant
05-14-07, 17:21
Great reviews - thanks for taking the time to share them.

Grant,

How did you run your PVS-14? Head mounted or weapon mounted?

Thanks,
JWL

Weapon.


C4

John_Wayne777
05-14-07, 17:49
My two favorite parts of the class were getting the oportunity (thanks Larry) to run my DBAL-A2 and my PVS-14.


Wow.

That's some gucci stuff right there, folks.....one of the benefits of being a dealer in tactical equipment, I suppose......:D



The second best part was going through the shoot house in two man teams.


Oh lordy.....

There are a lot of websites where only a few people realize how difficult something like that is for people who don't train together for that purpose.

That could be a real butt-kicker.



Funniest quote I heard from LAV: "Dude, the night fighting capability of your gun is so bad that I am thinking of crushing up some lightning bugs and putting them on your front sight post."


That's pretty good.....

Joe Mamma
05-14-07, 17:49
Your on M4C and don't own an AR??? :eek:


C4

Yeah, we're going to take over and change the name to AKCarbine.net. Why do you think we've been doing all of this AK training with Larry Vickers ;)

Joe Mamma

C4IGrant
05-14-07, 18:09
Wow.

That's some gucci stuff right there, folks.....one of the benefits of being a dealer in tactical equipment, I suppose......:D



Oh lordy.....

There are a lot of websites where only a few people realize how difficult something like that is for people who don't train together for that purpose.

That could be a real butt-kicker.



That's pretty good.....

Oh Lordy is exactly right. If the two man thing wasn't exciting enough for you, we did our entire group (11) in the house at one time. Running through rooms and down the hall while people are shooting is an eye opener!



C4

C4IGrant
05-14-07, 18:10
Yeah, we're going to take over and change the name to AKCarbine.net. Why do you think we've been doing all of this AK training with Larry Vickers ;)

Joe Mamma

I had the thought of taking my AK, but didn't want to be laughed at by the cool kids. :D



C4

John_Wayne777
05-14-07, 18:21
Oh Lordy is exactly right. If the two man thing wasn't exciting enough for you, we did our entire group (11) in the house at one time. Running through rooms and down the hall while people are shooting is an eye opener!


Are you serious?

That's some super duper big-boy range stuff right there. I hope people realize how rare that sort of thing is. I'm amazed Larry and Ken did that. If they are crazy....err.....umm....:Dhave enough confidence in their students to run something like that, maybe we can talk them into doing a course with some FOF like Simunitions.....

I would dearly love to get some quality FOF training done....

C4IGrant
05-14-07, 19:22
Are you serious?

That's some super duper big-boy range stuff right there. I hope people realize how rare that sort of thing is. I'm amazed Larry and Ken did that. If they are crazy....err.....umm....:Dhave enough confidence in their students to run something like that, maybe we can talk them into doing a course with some FOF like Simunitions.....

I would dearly love to get some quality FOF training done....

I am fairly certain that Ken & Larry are crazy, but that is beside the point. :D

During the course of the 3 day course, I think they saw MANY a muzzle pointed in their direction. :mad:



C4

Jay Cunningham
05-14-07, 19:44
I was looking forward to this AAR and I especially liked subzero's commentary so far. This is a little OT, but I must say that during the AK class and afterward when I got to think more about it, it struck me that if I had never taken a carbine fundamentals course before that AK course I would have been lost and overwhelmed. I only say that because there were/are no prereqs for that course either. The whole class seemed switched on, but Larry said during a couple of evolutions, "I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess most of you have never done this." Well, that statement of his was most assuredly true...

Back OT, I had some minimal instruction in low-light carbine techniques, and I have recently been practicing some low-light shooting on my local range until the guy who owns it chased me away. Unfortunately the Night/Low-Light portion of my upcoming carbine class got cancelled due to low enrollment. Sucks, but better luck next year, I guess. BTW, the local group that I train with (FIRE Institute) has a prereq for a 3 day carbine course before the two day night class.

Grant, could you expound a bit on why the 6V is your go-to choice?

Doc Solo
05-14-07, 21:41
Excellent class, I would absolutely take it again. The course progression was well thought out, many small building blocks, done in daylight, with explanation of the why and how they were important and how they would be applied after dark. After dark, the same simple blocks were repeated and then combined into more complex tasks. Everything gelled, lots of knowledge was passed. I learned where my weaknesses lie and have some tools to work on them. Some sacred cows were slain and I learned not to lick windows.

Thanks for the opportunity to train with you all.

Jean Jorgensen

subzero
05-14-07, 21:50
I'm curious to hear lessons learned from all attending on weapon-mounted lights as well as tertiary/hand-held lights (i.e., what worked well and why, what sucked and why...).

The "two is one, one is none" idea was mentioned, but I thought the most important lesson coming out of the class was that your light, sling and weapon setups are all compromises between position, ease of manipulation, amount of light, what the sling can do, etc. I know I've gone through a few setups trying to find the ideal, and I'm still not there yet. I think I may have to get more real estate (ie, a longer rail) to get a setup that'll be more in line with the way I want to do things.

As far as lights themselves, the Surefire G2 is, IMO, the clear winner amongst everything out there. Cheap enough to be considered disposable, good enough that they are the industry standard. There are lots of cool daddy things out, but if they don't break, then they're big, heavy, and stupid (and they'll probably break). I know I like the smaller E-size lights that Grant offers, and I may reconsider the 9V on my green gun in favor of the 6V I have on the backup gun. I have been consistently pursuing a "more light is better" philosophy and while the reasons behind it may be sound, I think I might be doing myself a disservice by having too much light.

For pistol mounted lights, the impression I got coming out of the class was that they were all junk and not worth it. A 250 buck X200 breaking within 1000 rounds? And every other light on the market is worse? Funk dat, son. I'll stick with handhelds and lasergrips. BTW, a second handheld isn't a bad idea, as my training partner found out upon reaching a doorway and dropping his light. I think I pushed him through the door, and he shot his target using the splash from my light.


Running through rooms and down the hall while people are shooting is an eye opener!

No kidding. Stacked up nuts to butts, you don't want to start wondering if you trust the guy behind you enough to have good muzzle discipline. I have to admit, I was not 100% comfortable doing that particular exercise. I can see why that particular type of training is not offered up by many other people. It's not for everyone, nor should just anyone teach it.


Bottom line is, if you've never found the boundaries of your "comfort zone" in using either the carbine or pistol; attend this class and you probably will.

Yes. While I've felt challenged to improve my performance at every class and I've taken away new skills, I've never really felt the edges of my comfort zone before. Can't say that about this class.


I had the thought of taking my AK, but didn't want to be laughed at by the cool kids.

I thought about it as well, especially with 5.56 getting so hard to find. But knowing the whole reptilian brain thing, I figured it was best to run the guns I was most familiar with (though I did leave my G19 at home).

Eric Rice
05-14-07, 22:22
Grant, could you expound a bit on why the 6V is your go-to choice?

Hi, I'm not Grant nor do I play him on TV. However, I think what he meant was anything that throws more light than the typical incandescant 6V will wreak havoc on your vision when illuminating at CQB distances - especially indoors.

NCPatrolAR
05-15-07, 00:15
High output lights are great outside and inside to a certain degree. You'll regret a setup pushing over 120 lumens if you enter a structure that has its walls painted with high gloss paint...... especially white, high gloss paint. I learned this a few years ago and keep it in mind when choosing my lights.

VA_Dinger
05-15-07, 07:00
I had the thought of taking my AK, but didn't want to be laughed at by the cool kids. :D

C4


I was planning on shooting an AK in at least 1/2 of the class. :(

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/2007_0327AKsurefire0001.jpg

PLCedeno
05-15-07, 07:06
Wow, this was a great class! Intense! I believe the basic carbine class i took at Sigarms Academy was barely enouth to prepare me for this. There were times at night where sensory overload definitely kicked in. At one point remembering to walk in a box while shooting and doing the flash bulb technique was overwhelming. It taught me that staying "tuned in" is a must when the s... hits the fan. The shoot house at night was definitely "life altering" as Ken Hackathorn said it would be. The brain must go into the room before the gun. I learned that shooting hostages is a direct result of the gun going in first.

Favorite quotes by: Larry Vickers "We live in a Glock world, everything else fills the periphery". "If you get a 1911 treat it like a woman. Find out what she likes to make her work and then give it to her" .

Sure enouth there where plenty of 1911 stopages including Ken Hackathorn's gun. Saw no Glock stoppages.

I got over the short bus, licking the glass comments. They were deserved and i learned from them. Did not get over knowing i wasted my money with the Trijicon Reflex sight (LV-"put that piece of crap up on ebay and get an Aimpoint") or the Surefire X200. Handhelds are faster to use in real world scenarios. Night sights on handguns and red dot sights on rifles are not luxuries.

PS: Just called Grant and ordered an Aimpoint M4 and Troy BUIS. I will really be taking the short bus if wife finds out.

Dport
05-15-07, 07:10
I knew I should have sucked it up and signed up for this class. Doh!

VA_Dinger
05-15-07, 07:13
A certificate would have been nice.

We will be sending them out.

They just were not ready in time for Larry to take them on the road.

John_Wayne777
05-15-07, 07:33
I got over the short bus, licking the glass comments. They were deserved and i learned from them. .

I figured that would surprise folks who haven't trained with Mr. Vickers before. Some people could feel insulted by those sorts of comments, but Mr. Vickers doesn't mean them like a lot of people take them.

He's not being insulting. He's just talking to you like he would talk to his buddies if he was training them.

I say that as an individual who got asked "How's that window taste?" on at least one occasion.

Sam
05-15-07, 07:44
Favorite quotes by: Larry Vickers "We live in a Glock world, everything else fills the periphery". "If you get a 1911 treat it like a woman. Find out what she likes to make her work and then give it to her" .

Sure enouth there where plenty of 1911 stoppages including Ken Hackathorn's gun. Saw no Glock stoppages.

.

Claude must have been grinning.:D

After taking 2 classes from LAV, I know that I am a window licker on the short bus and I took no offense from that.

John_Wayne777
05-15-07, 07:47
"I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess most of you have never done this." Well, that statement of his was most assuredly true...


To an extent....

Some of the guys there were really on the ball despite never having taken a course before, while other guys like myself who have taken 80+ hours of training every year for a number of years looked like a baby horse trying to stand up for the first time because I was trying to do things Larry's way as opposed to my normal way....and as a result looked about as graceful as a monkey trying to hump a football.

There wasn't a single drill we did during the AK class where I didn't immediately have the thought "Way to f*ck THAT one up, mr. hi-speed!" when it was over.

That entire course was an exercise in frustration....which is extremely useful. It's forced me to start practicing some stuff a new way and practice some stuff I never bothered to practice before. (Like the specific shooting on the move technique Larry teaches....)

C4IGrant
05-15-07, 08:40
I was looking forward to this AAR and I especially liked subzero's commentary so far. This is a little OT, but I must say that during the AK class and afterward when I got to think more about it, it struck me that if I had never taken a carbine fundamentals course before that AK course I would have been lost and overwhelmed. I only say that because there were/are no prereqs for that course either. The whole class seemed switched on, but Larry said during a couple of evolutions, "I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess most of you have never done this." Well, that statement of his was most assuredly true...

Back OT, I had some minimal instruction in low-light carbine techniques, and I have recently been practicing some low-light shooting on my local range until the guy who owns it chased me away. Unfortunately the Night/Low-Light portion of my upcoming carbine class got cancelled due to low enrollment. Sucks, but better luck next year, I guess. BTW, the local group that I train with (FIRE Institute) has a prereq for a 3 day carbine course before the two day night class.

Grant, could you expound a bit on why the 6V is your go-to choice?

A simple G2 works, but would think about adding a Z32 Shock Bezel to it and a way to take it on and off so you don't beat it to death during daylight training.

I am partial to the modified SF M600A that I build as it has an incan bulb and a LT Scout Mount (see pic below).

Our WG series of lights also offer a good value for what you get.


C4


http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SF/M60L68%20side1.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/WG%20Lights/WG6D%20by%20SJ.JPG

stony275
05-15-07, 10:08
I have been fortunate to have trained under Ken and Larry more than once. It's always been a great experience and I always leave knowing that there are things I have to work on and I need to go to the range to do most of them. They never fail to deliver a valuable and meaningful training experience.

Ken is always very good about pointing out the difference between the training we receive from them and practicing. Too many guys don't go to the range after a training session like that. They view it as the end in and of itself instead of a means to an end.

Even though I've been using a Bushmaster aka Scrubmaster since '96, it has gone through several revisions, especially since training under Larry. At this point, I'm satisfied with the setup and this course validated it. For what it's worth, I have the extended DD rail on a 14.5" barrel and a Surefire Scout light at the 12 o'clock position.

I'm actually one of those guys who is glad he has a light on his pistol. I've been running a Streamlight TRL-1 and it's holding up so far. I do plan on not keeping it on the pistol during daytime practice though in order to reduce the wear and tear on it. So a new 6004 is on my shopping list.

I do hope that those reading these reviews/AAR's/comments realize that if you want someone to stroke your ego and let you blast rounds downrange, these are not the guys for you. If you want real world based and validated training delivered to you in big boy fashion, then this is your cup of tea. If I want my ego stroked, I'll go to a strip club.

the1911fan
05-15-07, 16:55
I am riding high on a hunt for summa them tacticool front sight firefly's Larry told me to get....you carry em Grant??


All Aboard
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/6285108/AAA.jpg

It was a great class and certainly worth taking a 2nd time or every so often

MAP
05-15-07, 18:49
" .

Sure enouth there where plenty of 1911 stopages including Ken Hackathorn's gun. Saw no Glock stoppages.



In my relay there was at least one Glock malfunction. No malfunctions in either of my 1911s. If you noticed it looked like Ken was using eight (8) round mags.

I enjoyed my ride on the short bus.

Mike

chris914
05-15-07, 19:01
I had a couple of double feeds with my Rock River 1911. I do think that they were shooter induced though. I had a couple of clicks with the Armalite also. I guess that I need to change the springs out. I have been running the stock ones for about 3 years or ~8K. The 6V light is the way to go unless you are going to be trying to ID targets >50 meters. As Subzero said earlier, we have come to the minimalistic approach as far as gear goes. The extra light is a good thing to have. I would have been trampled in the dark of the house if I had not had the spare. Shooting "Grand Ma" is bad. 'nough said. This training is exactly what I have come to expect from LAV. Excellent. I was surprised that we spent no time zeroing weapons. If you are going to the next one you better go switched on and ready to go. Ken and Larry will push you until you are at the ragged edge and then help you reign yourself in just enough to get the job done. I can't wait for the 1911 Class in South Hill.

the1911fan
05-15-07, 19:24
I had zero malfunctions with my Bushmaster patrol rifle (just snatched one out of a car) and it has between 30K and 40K rounds through it (we have had em for 6 years). The setup malf drills were the only ones I had with the Bushie.

The Colt Ser. 70 I built had two shooter induced double feeds/ Wilson 10 round mag induced (bad grip, weak grip..whatever, 10 round mag) in 600-700 rounds. I only lubed both guns over the period of the class..no cleaning other than pulling a boresnake with nothing on it at the days start. The BM did about 600-700 rounds.

I am getting the dept. to buy new AR's as most of ours have 30k-40K through them and I hope to be able to source the Aimpoint optics/ 3 point slings (LOL)/ lights and mounts through Grant. We'll see what the bean counters allow us to do.

Heavy Metal
05-15-07, 19:55
I would love to take this in August if I could get in a basic pistol class sometime beforehand. I am not confident enough in my pistolcraft to impose myself on the class and slow it down.

And to those who think LAV is such a hardass......Let me emphatically state LAV is damn sure no NAZI!

Anyone got an emoticon that has a lil'mustache and seig heils? :)

carshooter
05-15-07, 20:16
[QUOTE=C4IGrant;53291]
I am partial to the modified SF M600A that I build as it has an incan bulb and a LT Scout Mount (see pic below).

Our WG series of lights also offer a good value for what you get.


C4[


Grant,

Why do you prefer changing the head for an incandescent bulb? Just curious!

CarlosDJackal
05-15-07, 22:31
I had a malfunction with my Glock 35. However, it was magazine induced - the mag had a notch on the inside of the feed lips and one of the rounds (CCI Blazer) got hung up on it. It cleared when I slapped the bottom of the mag. I took that mag out of action and did not experience anymore problems after that.

My SBR did not have a single problem though. But the flash report seemed to get brighter on the second night of shooting. Probably because I could not disassemble the KX3 to clean all the carbon out. I have since re-installed the A-2 flash hider.

I am also looking to replace my flip-up BUIS with a fixed one and will buy a second weaponslight for my Glock so that the duty light will only be used on duty.

I am seriously considering re-taking this course in the future. Take care!!

fly4now
05-15-07, 22:32
I thoroughly enjoyed the class. I would recommend Larry and Ken's class to anyone who wants to learn what it's like to shoot in an environment where most shooting incidents occur - in low light conditions.

During the day we learned and practiced what would be expected of us at night. When the sun went down, we applied that knowlege and discovered how difficult it is to operate in the dark. This difficulty was amplified in the shoot house where you had to know where your partner was at all times.

Everyone I spoke with during the class had had some form of formal pistol and carbine training. This obviously wasn't their first class. What I suggest is that, regardless of your training credentials, you should get yourself dialed in with a self-imposed mini-training session (concentrate on trigger press and sight alignment) the weekend before the class. If you think you're a decent shot, you'll be surprised how much low light conditions open up your groups. This is a must, especially for those who don't get in as much practice as they want or should.

In the future, I would like to take this class again. How often do you get a chance to shoot this much at night?

C4IGrant
05-16-07, 08:03
[QUOTE=C4IGrant;53291]
I am partial to the modified SF M600A that I build as it has an incan bulb and a LT Scout Mount (see pic below).

Our WG series of lights also offer a good value for what you get.


C4[


Grant,

Why do you prefer changing the head for an incandescent bulb? Just curious!


I like LED's on HG's, but not carbines. The simply reason is that they lack throw and on a long gun I want to be able to ID something farther out.

LED's also do not penetrate smoke very well.


C4

sjauch
05-16-07, 18:36
Had a great time at this class. The shoot house at night was pretty badass and an interesting experience.

Here's a video I took on the last day:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/Video/th_ShootingVid.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/Video/?action=view&current=ShootingVid.flv)

carshooter
05-16-07, 18:53
I like LED's on HG's, but not carbines. The simply reason is that they lack throw and on a long gun I want to be able to ID something farther out.

LED's also do penetrate smoke very well.


C4

Not to hijack the thread, but I think that's valuable information. (How various weapon lights performed)

I've been running incandescent Surefire's of various powers on long guns for several years, but recently added an LED scout light for what's going to be my primary go to carbine. It seems as if a higher lumen incandescent can actually seem too bright indoors, and my primary usage will probably be within the walls of my house.

In my suburban neighborhood, (except in the case of power outages) there's generally quite a bit of ambient light, too. I always felt that the more light the better, but have recently begun to notice the "reflection", too.

John_Wayne777
05-16-07, 19:01
Had a great time at this class. The shoot house at night was pretty badass and an interesting experience.

Here's a video I took on the last day:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/Video/th_ShootingVid.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v482/sjauch/Video/?action=view&current=ShootingVid.flv)

Not bad.

I hate those hidden corner targets....

They are a pain in the neck.

John_Wayne777
05-16-07, 19:15
To those who are viewing this thread and are concerned about the references to the "short bus" stuff....

Don't let it worry you.

Larry, like most good instructors, is part stand-up comedian. He's fond of using jokes to teach and to illustrate....that's where "El-Snatcho" and similar things come in. (El-Snatcho is the term Larry used to refer to flinching when pulling the trigger....)

At no time did Larry EVER ridicule any student or verbally abuse any student. He's too much of a pro to do that.

Larry treats you like a buddy, even if he doesn't know you from Adam. I had never trained with Larry before whereas many in the class had, and he treated me just like the guys he obviously had known a long time.

The "short bus" comments might seem odd and off-putting to those who have never been around him, but I assure you that after about an hour in the class you will understand completely.

We spent so much time laughing in the first AK class I was afraid our gums were going to get sunburned.

I haven't taken any long hot showers with him or anything, but from what I observed during the AK class I formed the impression that Larry is a patient, decent, charismatic fellow who cares a great deal about what he is teaching his students and about getting the most out of them he can.

I know there are some guys out there that have the "tactical god" aura and that exploit that because they get off on showing what a bigshot they are....but LAV isn't one of those guys. He's the polar opposite of that.

By all means, train with him at your earliest opportunity. I guarantee you that you'll enjoy the training....and you will probably get to the point where you ask yourself how that window tastes when you catch yourself messing up. ;)

Robb Jensen
05-16-07, 20:46
Larry and DP are great instructors and great guys. They're down to earth and without big EGOs. If you can't handle that don't sign up. Sure they may laugh at you and with you don't take it personally, if you can't stand southern humor, or want to learn from someone who's BTDT and wrote the book, don't bother showing up. These guys have a lot of offer, if your aren't man or woman enough to handle it stay home.

I plan on taking MUCHO training with both Larry and DP in the future. You would be hard pressed to find better training even if one-on-one.

Vinh
05-17-07, 00:01
Thanks to Paul for setting up the class. Thanks to Larry, Ken, and Staff for the opportunity to take a peek at their world.

Over the past year and a half, I've taken so many classes that I can no longer remember them all. Larry's classes always seem to stand out. This one is no exception. Having both Larry and Ken as instructors, there is so much experience and knowledge concentrated in one location that it's almost ridiculous. I feel truly blessed to have received quality training at such a young age. And as always, it was a pleasure to meet former classmates once again.

As the other guys have discussed some of the particulars of the class, I have just a few comments for the guys in the second class.

Please don't let this be your first, second, or third class. You need to come in with a solid foundation so that you aren't struggling with everything all at once.

I would recommend bringing a red LED light for pasting targets at night.

Work on your strong/weak-hand-only shooting.

Sam
05-17-07, 05:19
I would recommend bringing a red LED light for pasting targets at night.

Work on your strong/weak-hand-only shooting.

Excellent tip on the LED light. I recommend an ASP or Photon light clipped to your D ring on your pants if you have one or your vest or something.

Robb Jensen
05-17-07, 05:26
I would recommend bringing a red LED light for pasting targets at night.



Excellent tip on the LED light. I recommend an ASP or Photon light clipped to your D ring on your pants if you have one or your vest or something.

The think the new Molle lights from Pentagon Light would work excellently as well. The tan one with the red filter.

sjauch
05-17-07, 06:41
The red light is almost a must have. All those white light blasts were killing my nightvision.

The one I got from Grant worked like a charm. I think it's the Quicklite or something like that.

MAP
05-17-07, 07:17
The think the new Molle lights from Pentagon Light would work excellently as well. The tan one with the red filter.

I had one. With the red filter it is not bright enough.

Mike

C4IGrant
05-17-07, 08:52
Excellent video Steve!


C4

Larry Vickers
05-17-07, 09:42
Gents- thanx for all the comments - this was the first class that Ken and I ran and of course we are going to tweak a few things; some pre reqs at a minimum

the red light tip is a good one

In addition we don't have time to really review the basics in this class so you need to have a good baseline skill set in safety, muzzle awareness, and trigger control before you show up - this is for your benefit as well as others in the class

As for the short bus comments I apologize if I offended anyone - in the future I will offer an alternative to the standard 'short bus' critique - something along the lines of 'has anyone told you that you look very elegant while you are royally screwing up that drill'

Cheers

Larry

C4IGrant
05-17-07, 09:51
Gents- thanx for all the comments - this was the first class that Ken and I ran and of course we are going to tweak a few things; some pre reqs at a minimum

the red light tip is a good one

In addition we don't have time to really review the basics in this class so you need to have a good baseline skill set in safety, muzzle awareness, and trigger control before you show up - this is for your benefit as well as others in the class

As for the short bus comments I apologize if I offended anyone - in the future I will offer an alternative to the standard 'short bus' critique - something along the lines of 'has anyone told you that you look very elegant while you are royally screwing up that drill'

Cheers

Larry


Thanks Larry. Honestly, if anyone gets offended because they were called a "window licker" then they most likely need to stay out of the real world. :D



C4

KevinB
05-17-07, 10:02
I'd like to beg again for a course date sometime in the first two weeks of Nov (my leave timeframe) or my guns at Dingers will rust (have pity on them...)

VA_Dinger
05-17-07, 10:31
I'd like to beg again for a course date sometime in the first two weeks of Nov (my leave timeframe) or my guns at Dingers will rust (have pity on them...)

You’re in luck my friend.

We have a tentative date of Nov 9-11, 2007 for a 3-day pistol/carbine (South Hill, VA.). We just need to finalize this before it gets posted up on the website and a thread started. Should be early next week at the latest.

Your guns are safe & sound. I’ve only put 1-2 on Gunbroker. :)

Eric Rice
05-17-07, 10:31
... in the future I will offer an alternative to the standard 'short bus' critique - something along the lines of 'has anyone told you that you look very elegant while you are royally screwing up that drill'

Larry

As my Grandmother says, "as graceful as the bird they call the elephant."

As my Grandfather says, "like a monkey f#%&ing a football."

Larry, you guys were spot on with the critique. I cannot believe anyone would be offended.

VA_Dinger
05-17-07, 10:51
Maybe I missed something but I have not read one complaint about anything so far in this thread - not one. Trust me, I've been called far worse things MANY times by LAV and lived to tell the tale. Two ex-wives has a way of making you tough. :D It was said to make me and the class laugh - a teaching tool that's VERY effective by the way.

- Pre regs will be added for future Low Light classes. Everybody will be required to have attended at least a level I class before attending. Larry will make the call on what past training will be accepted on case-by-case bases.

It's not that anybody was really bad in class #1 from what I’ve heard or read (Just need more training & practice) but Larry wants to address this issue before it does become a problem in future classes. Like everyone has said (Including LAV) this is not a beginner class and every student should have the basics down pat before they attend a class of this level.

I'm seriously looking forward to class #2.

the1911fan
05-17-07, 10:55
As for the short bus comments I apologize if I offended anyone - in the future I will offer an alternative to the standard 'short bus' critique - something along the lines of 'has anyone told you that you look very elegant while you are royally screwing up that drill'

Cheers

Larry

You could always substitute "that looked worse than two boys F'ing" :D

As an instructor you have to point out "window licking" episodes ..and you can do it with good humor or real serious and Richard like. I believe the former works better, especially in a class with people from different walks of life.

I don't think anyone was offended at all... and if you were hopefully you were more offended by your "short bussin" episode than what Larry or Ken said.

John_Wayne777
05-17-07, 11:02
As my Grandmother says, "as graceful as the bird they call the elephant."

As my Grandfather says, "like a monkey f#%&ing a football."

Larry, you guys were spot on with the critique. I cannot believe anyone would be offended.

I don't think anyone in the class actually was.

I got several private messages, however, from folks who were wondering what the "short bus" stuff was all about.

I suppose out of context and to people unfamiliar with the insider stuff it might sound like Larry is beating up on people, when nothing could be further from the truth. I wanted to clear that issue up so that no one is discouraged from signing up for a very valuable class with some excellent instruction.

Larry's a good guy. He makes it a point to have a meal with his students, which is a fairly RARE thing from my experience. He's exceptionally patient, even with guys who have been trained to do everything the "wrong" way. ;)

Everybody in the class I attended had a good time and rated it highly. Nobody left the range crying. (Ask Pat Rogers about that one....) The only regrets people had about the class was that it wasn't longer and that we didn't have more ammo for the STMG 44.

Honestly....the guy handed us an extremely valuable weapon from his personal collection and some ammo and let us play....:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/VTAKJW777.jpg?t=1179416602

How bad a guy could he possibly be?

Everybody has moments on the range when their performance leaves something to be desired or when they need correction on something they aren't doing right. Everybody also has moments on the range when they KNOW that they fouled up and they can do better.

In such moments there's no reason you can't communicate the point and have a little fun at the same time.

We're on a shooting range playing with "assault" weapons. It's about the most politically incorrect thing you can do this side of shooting the dove released at a "diversity!" celebration. Let's not get too concerned about this stuff....

PS -- I like it when the window tastes like strawberry. Strawberry is my favorite.

Sam
05-17-07, 11:03
The GA crew would be hurt if we're not referred to as the "short bus crew". :)

John_Wayne777
05-17-07, 11:07
Back to the topic of lights for a moment....

To those gents who have been in the class or to those gents who have taught the class, do you think that the removable light filters are something people should acquire for this class, or something they might find useful for this class?

Jay Cunningham
05-17-07, 11:13
Anybody who is "scared" to take one of Larry's classes because he "makes fun of people" needs to cowboy the f*ck up. In reality, I supsect anybody who "is concerned" is just using it as an excuse for other reasons.

Back OT, I also am curious about, say, a diffusing filter on a 9V incandescent.

subzero
05-17-07, 15:21
Back to the topic of lights for a moment....

To those gents who have been in the class or to those gents who have taught the class, do you think that the removable light filters are something people should acquire for this class, or something they might find useful for this class?

I'm not a big fan of filters on weaponlights, and I don't see how they would have come in handy in this class. In fact, the only filter I own is an opaque jobby to prevent a light AD (gotta remember to flip the cap when it stays dark!). A secondary or tertiary handheld with a red filter may have come in handy at some point (like pasting targets, but Vinh had an ideal setup IMHO with one of those LED headband things).

I think you could make a case for a red filter on a weaponlight to alleviate some backsplash, but to me a better solution is a light that doesn't blind the hell out of the guy trying to use it.

CarlosDJackal
05-17-07, 15:31
...As for the short bus comments I apologize if I offended anyone - in the future I will offer an alternative to the standard 'short bus' critique - something along the lines of 'has anyone told you that you look very elegant while you are royally screwing up that drill'

Cheers

Larry

I'm sorry, but if someone took offense to any of the short bus/window licking/etc. insults they probably do not belong in that class. I personally feel that as long as the comment was made in jest and to emphasize a point (which, as far as I can remember they were), such verbal "lashing" is not offensive in the least.

I'll even wear a hockey helmet the whole time if need be. This is probably a step up from the multi-colored beannie!! :D

CarlosDJackal
05-17-07, 15:33
...I would recommend bringing a red LED light for pasting targets at night...

The stupid thing is I did have one of those LED headlamps with the red light but forgot to use it. :rolleyes:

C4IGrant
05-18-07, 15:56
Anybody who is "scared" to take one of Larry's classes because he "makes fun of people" needs to cowboy the f*ck up. In reality, I supsect anybody who "is concerned" is just using it as an excuse for other reasons.

Back OT, I also am curious about, say, a diffusing filter on a 9V incandescent.


You could do that and it would even out the light quite a bit.


C4

M4arc
05-20-07, 15:45
Where to begin. I guestimate that I have over four-hundred hours of tactical carbine and pistol training (not counting what I got in the Navy)...

What training was that?

Where they trained you to make coffee, turn down the AC in your space, type 40 words per minute or when they sent you T.A.D. to the mess decks?

Bbbbwwwwwwwaaaaaahhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! :D

C4IGrant
05-20-07, 15:51
What training was that?

Where they trained you to make coffee, turn down the AC in your space, type 40 words per minute or when they sent you T.A.D. to the mess decks?

Bbbbwwwwwwwaaaaaahhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! :D


LOL, you must be mistaking me with you! :D



C4