Spike's Threads

[tsconver]

I think it is bull shit that you are just closing every spike's thread. My pistol thread was fine and had nothing bad in it. Thought this was a free country and we were able to discuss things and agree on some and disagree on others. What a stupid policy.

[SHIVAN]

I don't know what you're talking about, and you're not going to be happy about me locking this either, but this is not how you go about addressing concerns with decisions made by moderators or staff of this site.

Sorry, but this won't fly. If a mod or staff member locked something, please IM or email them about it to see why.

Thanks.

[Jay Cunningham]

It has become abundantly clear that anything with "Spike's" in the subject line turns into a train wreck in short order.

Anyone in the future who has an overwhelming urge to start a "Spike's" thread, contact Staff first for approval.

Since I locked those threads, I've only heard from one guy (you) out of a current membership of 28,455 who was unhappy about the situation.

I explained why these posts got locked in each individual thread - it has gotten to the point where every time "Spike's" shows up in the title it induces a cringe. I am not the only one who has noticed this trend concerning Spike's threads.

rob_s recently contacted me and asked if he can start a new Spike's thread concerning his experiences, and I said fine, but it will be very closely watched.

No one else seems to have an issue with it, since I haven't heard from anyone else. Your thread did not get locked because you did anything wrong - nothing personal. We are simply not going to let Spike's run wild and take over our forum by proxy.

This is indeed a free country, but that doesn't have a whole lot to do with a private web forum that has paying sponsors. If Spike's wants to advertise with us, they can contact us and do so.


The_Katar
Site Staff

[Joeywhat]

While I'm not sure my opinion counts here, and at the end of the day I really just don't give a damn, it does seem a bit odd to just close every Spike's thread just because the norm is for them to go South. Aren't you just fixing the symptoms instead of fixing the problem?

If people are shitting all over Spikes threads then why not just deal with them? Give them a time out, and I'm sure after a while people will get the message. Just doesn't make sense to me to lock a potentially good thread that may offer valuable information to M4C users because a few people can't handle themselves on the internet.

[Jay Cunningham]

While I'm not sure my opinion counts here, and at the end of the day I really just don't give a damn, it does seem a bit odd to just close every Spike's thread just because the norm is for them to go South. Aren't you just fixing the symptoms instead of fixing the problem?

If people are shitting all over Spikes threads then why not just deal with them? Give them a time out, and I'm sure after a while people will get the message. Just doesn't make sense to me to lock a potentially good thread that may offer valuable information to M4C users because a few people can't handle themselves on the internet.

Much like our beloved Secretary of State, we are hitting RESET.

;)

[Jay Cunningham]

tsconver, I opened YOUR thread back up.

We'll watch these on a case-by-case basis.

[Just_Plain_T.]

No one else seems to have an issue with it, since I haven't heard from anyone else.

One observation -- It could be that others do have an issue with it, but have kept quiet based on other observations (such as perceived hostile treatment to others, real or falsely perceived). Or perhaps some of them left, knowing they can't make or change the rules here.

Since we're actually taking opinions, count me in for the list of those who don't like the automatic locking of any Spike's thread. I suspect that part of the reasoning for the latest string of Spike's threads was the shutdown of earlier ones recently -- when folks see something locked up tight, the first question that tends to go through their heads is "what happened here?" Seeing no apparent cause for the downhill postings in the closed thread, they open a new one asking what the problem is. Or they just open one and see what happens.

Curiosity is a pretty universal human trait, especially when the staff seems to convey it's a "forbidden topic."

Guess what I'm saying is I don't see some Spike's conspiracy to overrun the forum. I see a few closed threads which spawn many more threads to see what the fuss is about. I understand the whole paid sponsors bit, but there's got to be a better way than shutting down any and all posts about other products.

[Jay Cunningham]

Guess what I'm saying is I don't see some Spike's conspiracy to overrun the forum.

Yet ARFCom is overrun and our forum suddenly is inundated with new/low post count members who are crowing about Spike's and who attack long established members who are critical of Spike's.

We will not allow our forum to be utterly disrupted by rabid fans of one small company.

[Just_Plain_T.]

To be honest, never been to ARFcom.

I have no real bone in this fight. I have nothing to gain or lose by it. Yes, I happen to have a spike's lower for a pistol build of mine. No, I'm not endorsed by Spike's nor have I gotten into an argument about how good/bad it is versus how good/bad another lower is.

All I'm saying is that people tend to take notice of what becomes off limits, and I suspect many a newer poster (myself included) took note when Spike's threads started to get shut down.

[SHIVAN]

... took note when Spike's threads started to get shut down.

Users should take note, I think. It would appear that The_katar does indeed have a valid point. The ones he locked were just the one's that hadn't already been locked due to issues.

So if there is some sort of encouragement externally to "chat up" Spike's, we're not going to sit idly by while unknown people take over this forum with Spike's reviews, and Spike's questions worded just slightly different, but essentially asking the same thing every other Spike's thread asks.

We're watching, and locking if necessary; starting as of yesterday. Glad people took note.

[Tornado_Racing]

IMHO.............it seems as if the veterans (not all but a few) are being favored. I am a new guy here and basically started with a Spike's build, but I have learned from all of you guys here and for that I am very thankfull. Spike's has a great rifle for the cost but just because some of the veteran guys have a difference of opinion shouldn't mean every Spike's thread gets shut down.

My post is not intended to disrespect anyone at all, just posting my thoughts/concerns as to what I am seeing in regards to the Spike's threads being closed.

EDIT: Spell Check

[Jay Cunningham]

Why is it no other company, then? There's lots out there, so why are just the Spike's threads leading to issues?

[SHIVAN]

... a difference of opinion shouldn't mean every Spike's thread gets shut down....

They won't be. The_Katar did a reset, and has issued the guidance. We will be watching it more carefully because it appears that on this forum, and others, there is an inordinate amount of traffic being dedicated to Spike's Tactical. Almost uncanny amount being dedicated really...

The mods and staff of this website have been around the internet block at least once, and have seen this sort of thing before. We're not sitting by and watching this one from the sidelines.

We're glad that Spike's is making a quality product at a good price. We're not happy that it appears end users are being told to "chat up" Spike's products ad nausem across gun boards, and post new threads with the same questions being discussed in active threads already. It seems this might be coming from dealers, or fanclubs, or maybe it's just contagious and everyone wants to be involved.

Whatever the case is, we're letting everyone know that we're seeing it here, and other places, and it's not going to fly here.

Thanks for everyone's understanding.

[lethal dose]

i probably shouldn't interject, but i will. i agree with the decision the mods and staff have made to closely moderate what is going on, here. as a moderator of another forum, myself, i understand the concern on rampant fanboyage about one specific product and the lack of LEGIT reviews that it may generate. more or less a bunch of static buzz that means nothing and does not contribute to the forum in a positive way. i have only been an m4c member for about six months but have browsed a lot longer. i have always admired m4c and its staff for the heavy moderation. it makes it much easier to get to the facts and move on with what's important. as stated by staff and mods, nobody is knocking spike's. as a matter of fact, i even recall a KAC rep applauding them for stepping up their game and being innovative. fact is... the garbage needs taken out (spike's not being the garbage... just the disgusting threads about them). spike's is a good company, i'm sure. but just like any other good company, they will, over time, prove themselves and need to be allowed to do so. having a bunch of broke college kids justify purchases they've already made, be it what ever company, by getting on here and blah blah blah BLAHing about it while not knowing left from right about it, is only going to create static and confusion for people to sift and read through (like many other sites) but it is also laying ground work for the company to start mass producing garbage just because they know people will buy it (once again, not saying that spike's would do this). so, i guess to wrap it up... 1) spikes needs to prove themselves by getting their product positive reviews by industry pros 2) this type of moderation is a necessity to a productive forum and i hope the mods and staff crack down in a few other areas 3) i guess there is no three... if you like what spike's have to offer, great. buy one. learn the ropes and pm your experience to one of the mods or staff, i am positive they would love to hear your experience... they are helpful and knowledgeable and they may even ask that you post your experience. but this stuff does need to stop. it's rampant and it is distracting from other PAYING sponsors who deserve the spotlight and have already proven themselves worthy. hats off the the m4c staff. thank you.

[crowkiller]

I agree with the mods the Spikes static is annoying. It is kind of uncanny

[Tornado_Racing]

I've only been a member here since August of 09' and have owned my Spike's SL-15 since November. I did build my M4 from the ground up with alot of reading here. I'll admit, some of my early posts were newbie ARFCOM style posts. I didn't know any better but have learned this is a true professional site with only facts.

Because I own a Spike's I do feel like an outsider as I do not own a Colt, Noveske, LMT, etc. I just ran into a problem with my gun keyholing and many offered answers with things to try and look for. End solution was to purchase a new barrel. The keyholing was not Spike's fault as it was not one of their barrels but I chose the "cheaper route" instead of building correctly from day one. My SL-15 has 6k run through it without a single problem other than the barrel. With a DD Pencil on the way I'm hoping to get another 6k before parts just start to wear out.

I chose Spike's for a few reasons. One being their specs compared to "the chart". Two was geographical location with replacement parts only being 2 days away via UPS ground. Three was their customer service which is outstanding.

As a newbie and a Spike's owner it would be nice to be able to post and ask important questions without backlash. My keyholing questions were answered and a few went totally in depth. But as a new guy I did not fully understand some of the info. I am learning new things every day and do appreiciate the patients M4C is allowing me with my newby questions.

Again my post is not intended to offend or upset anyone at all, I'm just a very satisfied Spike's customer with 6k through my M4 so far.

Tony Moffre

[SpookyPistolero]

Just saw the new sticky on this matter:

I haven't been here long enough to say anything about 'trends' in posting, so I won't comment on that. I'm not at all new to internet forums and I know how irritating it can be to the general flow of information when relative 'fan boys' come in and incessantly plug their product.

I will say, however, that I was point to M4Carbine.net by a friend at THR due to the wealth of information here. I quickly came to agree with my friend. I came here, and enjoy reading here, because of the no-BS attitude towards equipment and training. And because folks here actually use their gear.

I mention the above because it's a bit unsettling to see possible censorship concerning a product that is [or seems to me to be] a relative new-comer to the quality AR arena. Or put another way, I'd hate to see a good product get snubbed or ignored by folks who know what they're doing just because the PR is suspect.

Either way, it does seem to be a fair stance taken by the admins to allow the discussion with the disclosure that they'll be closely watched. Seems just fair warning to fan-boy trolls.

[CONKLE73]

My very first AR was from Bravo Co. and it was and still is a great rifle, Paul spent almost an hour on the phone with me getting me squared away and the product that I received was great.
Soon after that purchase I met Spike at a gun show and I received the same attention from him that I received from Paul. I started to wonder if all AR dealers / manufacturers were this attentive to their customers… (sadly I soon found out that Paul and Spike were the exception and not the rule in this regard… not that there aren’t a handful of other GRAET dealers and manufacturers out there, but there are also a lot of “not so great ones” as well)

As my addiction to AR’s grew I chose to do more business with Spikes mainly because they were local and they were one of the dealers / manufacturers that treated me better than could be expected. (If Bravo were local I would have gone with them… it was simply a matter of logistics and my desire for face to face service)

I will absolutely admit that I am a Spikes supporter. They are local to me and I have always received “over the top” service and I have never had a problem with the products.
And I have to say that I feel inclined to defend them against “bashing” when I see it.
I would never attempt to contradict a poster who posted a “real” problem that they had regarding the product or service that they received, but when there are baseless allegations of them falsifying their specs or cutting corners I feel inclined to offer a retort.

Also, as with my first purchase that I made with Bravo Co, I initially was going to purchase a DPMS from a local gun shop, through other forums I found out that I could get a much better quality rifle at a much better price if I went with Bravo Co… I would have never known that if someone hadn’t suggested them when I posted that I was about to buy a DPMS for a given price and most people replied that I would get a better deal with Bravo Co.

I feel inclined to offer the same advice to others… IMO Spikes currently has the best deal going with their LE line… So if I see someone asking for advice on a purchase I see no reason why I shouldn’t suggest them.
If I see someone state that Spikes BCG’s are junk and BCM BCG’s are the way to go, and I know damn well that they get their BCG’s from the same place is it wrong for me to correct that statement?
If someone states that Spikes uses “inferior” steel in the manufacturer of their barrels and I have personally seen the paperwork that certifies the barrels to be in compliance with the requirements stated in MIL-B-11595E should I not pipe up and refute the false claim?

If someone was shit-talking Bravo Co I would jump in and defend them as well.

There is a difference between “spamming” forums and a very satisfied customer supporting a company or defending them against false claims.

It might be easy for one to get the idea that bashing Spikes is freely allowed, while supporting them seems to be discouraged if not outright forbidden…
I certainly hope that this is not the case (and I really don’t think that it is, but I don’t understand the resistance to the support of a company by its customers, unless it’s outright spamming or trolling which should be discouraged regardless of the topic).

[rob_s]

unless it’s outright spamming or trolling which should be discouraged regardless of the topic).

and what would you suggest be done if that were to be the case?

I'm not saying it is (or isn't), but it wouldn't be the first time. Paul LW making false accounts claiming to be a specops soldier using his piston system, Dick Swan having multiple accounts on the internut to prop up his products (and lawsuits), hell the pres. of Whole Foods creating shill accounts to drive down the price of stock of a competitor he wants to buy out...

I am NOT saying that Spike's is going this. But with an influx of new members with relatively low post counts suddenly feeling compelled to post (sometimes after years of silence after registering) it is certainly easy to see how the staff can get suspicious.

It is great that Spike's elicits strong support from their customer base, and my suspicion is that nobody at Spike's is encouraging the kind of fanboism that seems to be happening but most of these posters don't seem to understand that their (often hysterical and uninformed) posts actually have a counter effect.

I do think that some haven't given Spike's a fair shake as well, but much of that is pretty well founded given the kind of rifles they were turning out not too long ago (rebadged RRA and DPMS, essentially). I myself was guilty of that to a certain extent and based on my visit I have seen for myself that they have definitely come a long way in a short period of time.

I have approval to post my Spike's/Chart thread, and I'm just waiting on some information from Tom to post. IMHO how that thread pans out will indicate a lot.

[Boss Hogg]

Here are my 2 cents.

I visited Spikes back in late March, as I was in the Orlando area. They were great guys, and quite hospitable. I purchased a few of their $85 "blem" lowers, which turned out to be darn good.....so much so that I decided to SBR one.

What I think we're seeing is the "I'm new to ARs, so I got a Spikes rifle. My buddy and I went to the dirt pile and it ran great for 120 rounds......so therefore it's as good as your Noveske." From my interaction with them, Spikes has a lot more marketing savvy than to be officially pushing that type of fanboism. Let's face it- look at the "Wolf Pack" on TOS, and all those who think that a Magpul AFG combined with a beard and Carhartts will make them shoot like Chris Costa. "Viral" marketing can sometimes spiral out of the mothership's control.

On the other hand, I think that others are quick to jump on Spikes because they don't like the spider logo, the fact that they are not a long-term resident on The Chart, etc.

My advice......if you a have a Spikes rifle, great. I know it's a good one. Post about it after a couple of thousand rounds. If you don't like Spikes, try one of their products out and then you can explain why you still don't like them. I believe in keeping an open mind in a crowded and competitive market.

[CONKLE73]

and what would you suggest be done if that were to be the case?



Example:

Original poster poses this question…
“I am new to AR’s and I was at the local gun shop and they have a DPMS flat top for $900 and a RRA flat top rifle for $985… Are these good prices? Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance,
Newbie”

First reply:
“Hey Newbie, welcome to the site.
You might want to look into the Spikes M4-LE… It’s a lot of rifle for the money.
IMO I would go that route before I bought either of the choices you listed”

Second reply:
“BCM is another good choice… check out their site… much better choice than the DPMS or the RRA”

Third reply:
“Spikes sells crap, they use inferior steel in their barrels, give false specs on their website and the bolts they use come from China… BCM is way better hands down”

Who is the troll and who is simply offering their opinion on a company?

In my opinion the poster of the third reply is posting solely to bash a company and if this is the case would it be spamming or trolling to dispute his claims?

I think it’s pretty easy to differentiate between people who are just trying to offer up their honest opinions or dispute slanderous claims and people who are posting to stir up trouble.

Those found to be constantly doing nothing more than stirring up trouble and posting with malicious intent should be put in time-out and warned and if it happens again lock the account.

As for spamming… if someone is constantly posting links to Spikes retail site or constantly interjecting Spikes Tactical into every thread regardless of relevance they should be treated the same way… warning followed by account lock.

[rob_s]

Example:

Original poster poses this question…
“I am new to AR’s and I was at the local gun shop and they have a DPMS flat top for $900 and a RRA flat top rifle for $985… Are these good prices? Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance,
Newbie”

First reply:
“Hey Newbie, welcome to the site.
You might want to look into the Spikes M4-LE… It’s a lot of rifle for the money.
IMO I would go that route before I bought either of the choices you listed”

Second reply:
“BCM is another good choice… check out their site… much better choice than the DPMS or the RRA”

Third reply:
“Spikes sells crap, they use inferior steel in their barrels, give false specs on their website and the bolts they use come from China… BCM is way better hands down”

this is where perception is everything. I don't think I've seen a post that I would equate with your third reply, or even close to it, on this board. However I bet a lot of people read some of the replies like your first one more like...

First reply:
“Hey Newbie, welcome to the site.
You might want to look into the Spikes M4-LE… It’s a lot of rifle for the money.
IMO I would go that route before I bought either of the choices you listed.
I have one myself and I've glued half the Crapco catalog onto it and it's been flawless in all 50 rounds I've fired through it from the bench.”

Now I am not saying that Spike's only makes guns for that segment, and I am not saying that only that segment has weighed in, but just as you appear to have perceived every post questioning Spike's as being "anti", many people have perceived a lot of the "pro" posts as being the equivalent of what I posted in red.

and float enough of your "first reply" posts (whether your version or mine) in the short time frame that we've seen them, right on the heels of a couple of threads that induced a good amount of dramaticals, and I think you can see where the staff starts to wonder what is going on.

[SHIVAN]

This post has just about served it's purpose. Hope everyone gets their last thoughts in soon, as it won't be open in the morning. :):)

[6933]

It seems Spike's threads ran into trouble when there were unverified claims about the quality and materials that went into the product. The claims could now be true, or, maybe not. Saying a Spike's is as good as a Colt w/o proper vetting of the product tends to irritate some; myself included. However, I will say I hope Rob gives us the lowdown and that the AR world gets to discuss another quality product. If it can make it to the left side of the Chart, then we all benefit.

[glockeyed]

It seems Spike's threads ran into trouble when there were unverified claims about the quality and materials that went into the product. The claims could now be true, or, maybe not. Saying a Spike's is as good as a Colt w/o proper vetting of the product tends to irritate some; myself included. However, I will say I hope Rob gives us the lowdown and that the AR world gets to discuss another quality product. If it can make it to the left side of the Chart, then we all benefit.

pretty much agree, and that can go both ways.... bagging on spike without proof. i think we can agree with the errornet and how gun myths start.