Advantages of Mid-Length Carbines for Law Enforcement Officers

[USMC03]

Some overlooked advantages of the Mid-Lenght gas system carbine over the carbine-length gas system AR15 for Law Enforcement Officers.

An explination of the mid-length and carbine gas systems can be found in this article:

http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/carbine-vs-midlength/icon-carbine-vs-midlength.jpg
03designgroup | Carbine vs. Mid-Length Gas System on a 16" Barrel http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/carbine-vs-mid-length-gas-system)



-Mid-Length has a longer iron sight radius, which aids in accuracy. If you have ever shot a 20" AR15 rifle with iron sights and a 16" carbine with iron sights side by side at distance you will notice that it's easier to get more accurate hits with the 20" rifle. This may not and advantage for all LEO's, but there are still many departments out there that don"t allow optics for their patrol rifles.

-Mid-Length has a slightly smoother recoil impulse than a carbine length gas system

-The Mid-Length handguard is longer and some taller shooters will find more comfortable. Shooters who use a compention style grip will find more comfortalbe (many competition shooters hold further out on the fore end, and some use techniques like pointing their index finger in the same direction as the muzzle). Many tall shooter or shooters who use a competition type grip find the that Carbine-Length handguards are too short. Here is an example of the grip that I use:

http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/midlengths-for-leo/midlength-2.jpg


Many guys are starting to figure out what 3 gunners and competition shooters have known for a long time. The further you can get your hand out on the fore end the easier it is to "drive" the gun. The mid-length helps you get your hand further out on the fore end.

-The longer handguard on the Mid-Length aids in resting the barricade on a piece of cover. This is often overlooked by many LEO's.


Many times in a law enforcement setting when a carbine is deployed the Patrol Officer will take up a position of cover on a perimeter or while covering a person or location (ie. barricaded gunman call, drawn out felony stop, alarm call and suspects are still inside the buisness or residence, etc)

While taking up a position of cover we often rest our carbine on a piece of cover (vehicle, fence, concrete wall, tree, post, etc.). The piece of cover often times can serve a dual purpose and can be used as a stable shooting platform.

Think about the shapes of vehicles and other objects you might use as cover as you look at the pic below. If you had a Carbine-Length handguard, would you be able to get your barrel on the piece of cover?
http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/midlengths-for-leo/midlength-3.jpg
(Photo Credit - Zak Smith www.demigodllc.com - Pic used with permission)

This photo illistrates how a Mid-Leght handguard and a 20 round magazine can be an asset in certain situations (the shooter is using a 10.0" rail, but if he wasn't running a Magpul Ranger plate on his 20 round magazine, he could have easily gotten a 9.0 rail onto the barricade in this situation):
http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/midlengths-for-leo/midlength-4.jpg

Even if it's a brick wall, note how much easier it is to get the Mid-Length handguard on the piece of cover:
http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/midlengths-for-leo/midlength-5.jpg


As you can see a 2" longer handguard / gas system of the Mid-Length has a lot of advantages over the shorter Carbine-Length gas system.





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Full review with more pics can be seen here:


http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/midlengths-for-leo/icon-midlengths-for-leo.jpg
03designgroup | Advantages of Mid-Length Carbines for Law Enforcement Officers http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/midlengths-for-leo)

[ForTehNguyen]

i also noticed due to the longer handguard, I don't have to extend the stock as far to get a grip as compared to a carbine. Center of balance is closer to the shooter when you have the stock extended less.

[Kentucky Cop]

Really informative Jeff. It really puts in perspective the difference of each. (Sidetrack quickly) What kind of BFG sling are you using the the picture with the camera guy visible and or the tan one in the very first little pic of the rifle laying on the ground by itself? My department doesn't authorize BCM. My options are Smith, Colt, Doublestar, Sabre, and a few others. I am currently waiting for the Smith 15TS to be released any week now. I believe its a middy. Can you think of any other middys that Smith or Colt makes. I am obviously getting ready to purchase my next patrol rifle and want a midlength but options are few. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/811024_large.jpg

Thanks again for the wonderful article.

Ky Cop

[Fire_Medic]

I'm not Jeff, but here you go:

http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/tactical-slings-for-the-carbine

[Kentucky Cop]

I'm not Jeff, but here you go:

http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/tactical-slings-for-the-carbine

Your the man!! Thanks a bunch Firemedic.

Ky Cop

[Fire_Medic]

Your the man!! Thanks a bunch Firemedic.

Ky Cop

No problem brother. Jeff is a great guy and has taught me A LOT!

Just passing the info along.

[Stickman]

Increased iron sight radius is a nice plus, and even guys who are shooting with RDOs still need to qualify with irons, so its a win-win deal. The ability to hold the weapon out farther with the support arm is also a positive gain.

Regarding recoil impulse, the difference is apparent. The more the shooter is dialed in to the weapon, the greater the difference they will appreciate. It might not be much to a novice shooter, but to guys with heavy trigger time it is quite evident.


We will have to agree to disagree on the last part of the article. Pushing your weapon out past cover is not something I teach as an instructor, or use in my daily LE work. The pictures do a great job of illustrating how the longer rail can get propped on an item, and thats nice for 3 gun shooting , but not for an piece written for LEO (imho). Placing the weapon against both sides of a barricade enhances stability, yet hinders maneuverability. It might work great for 3 gun or shooting quals, but if that is how troops train, that is what they will do on the street. Flagging the weapon is obvious in the shown images, and that is a giant red flag as well.

An Officer deployed with a carbine is not an isolated unit, and the need to scan and assess threats in a 360 degree circle is still important, even when the threat is believed to be in a specific location. Resting the weapon on items and flagging are generally poor form in my book. I won't argue that there may be certain times that it may be needed, but its not the norm.

[Kentucky Cop]

No problem brother. Jeff is a great guy and has taught me A LOT!

Just passing the info along.

I agree. I always read his stuff. I am hoping someone will "learn me" on who sells middys other than BCM. My dept hasn't even heard of them. :mad:(Long story). I want to buy a decent one for the cruiser. I have a 6920 stock and thinking of doing this to it and calling it a day. I am tired of waiting on Smith's 15TS that was suppose to be out months ago.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stickgunner/4567328752/ courtesy of the Stickman.

Oh, decisions. 15TS (middy) or convert my 6920? Suggestions....

Ky Cop

[Fire_Medic]

I agree. I always read his stuff. I am hoping someone will "learn me" on who sells middys other than BCM. My dept hasn't even heard of them. :mad:(Long story). I want to buy a decent one for the cruiser. I have a 6920 stock and thinking of doing this to it and calling it a day. I am tired of waiting on Smith's 15TS that was suppose to be out months ago.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stickgunner/4567328752/ courtesy of the Stickman.

Oh, decisions. 15TS (middy) or convert my 6920? Suggestions....

Ky Cop

Ask them if they've heard of Noveske.......;)

[ST911]

-Mid-Length has a longer iron sight radius, which aids in accuracy. If you have ever shot a 20" AR15 rifle with iron sights and a 16" carbine with iron sights side by side at distance you will notice that it's easier to get more accurate hits with the 20" rifle. This may not and advantage for all LEO's, but there are still many departments out there that don"t allow optics for their patrol rifles.


Increased iron sight radius is a nice plus, and even guys who are shooting with RDOs still need to qualify with irons, so its a win-win deal.

Sight radius is often cited as a benefit, but has anyone actually quantified the issue? Best data would be from LCD, average, and above-average shooters.

I've not seen a lot of difference between shooters of like ability running standard carbines and mid-lengths. What differences there were usually were found in static marksmanship exercises, and quickly disappeared in more practical shooting.

Given the abilities of most cops, and training and engagement distances the shoot within, is it something even worth mentioning?

I'm willing to believe that it is given more data, but I wonder if the benefits are much more theoretical or imagined than real.

[crazymoose]

Sight radius is often cited as a benefit, but has anyone actually quantified the issue? Best data would be from LCD, average, and above-average shooters.

I've not seen a lot of difference between shooters of like ability running standard carbines and mid-lengths. What differences there were usually were found in static marksmanship exercises, and quickly disappeared in more practical shooting.

Given the abilities of most cops, and training and engagement distances the shoot within, is it something even worth mentioning?

I'm willing to believe that it is given more data, but I wonder if the benefits are much more theoretical or imagined than real.

Due to the scarcity of suitable ranges in my area, I do much more handgun than rifle shooting. As such, I'm mediocre at best with a rifle. I have not noticed a discernible difference between CAR and mid setups when using irons, but then again, 2-3 MOA is about the best I can reliably deliver from irons, anyway.

However, I will say that the recoil impulse difference is extremely noticeable to me, and my follow-ups are faster with the mid. It seems to me that the mid gas system is just another of the many incremental improvements the AR platform has seen. In my less-than-expert opinion, I have to concur with the position that the benefits of the mid gas are not significant enough to warrant dumping a bunch of CAR setups if you have them on hand; however, if you are buying your first AR, or if you don't require uniformity between your rifles, there isn't much of an argument for going with the CAR now that mids are available.

[G34Shooter]

I just passed this article to my father who is trying to get his department to issue AR's for patrol :D

[LAWMAN34]

The 16" barrel makes the most sense for patrol since most of your engagements are generally with in 100 yards and it is much easier to get the rifle out of the rifle rack and or vehicle than a 20" barrel would be.

[Zeus]

With that said, I'd say SBR's make better Patrol Rifles for Metro areas... engagement distances have proven to be short even for side arms. I'm running an 11.5" and consider it to have more than enough reach for my guys. More importantly, it's much quicker into the fight coming out of a Patrol car. Let’s not stray too far off into the speed vs. accuracy side of this though.

I have yet to own a mid length... it's next on the build agenda. I can see the merits though, and have researched the topic at length. There's little reason not to go with a middy on a 16" rifle from what I've gathered.

[500grains]

With that said, I'd say SBR's make better Patrol Rifles for Metro areas... engagement distances have proven to be short ... it's much quicker into the fight coming out of a Patrol car.

Indeed. And for going through doorways / around corners.

http://noveskerifleworks.com/imimg/lsb-556_1d.jpg

[Magic_Salad0892]

This may be because I primarily run SBRs...

but in a DI gun I actually do prefer the carbine length gas system for a fighting gun.

Midlengths feel too big to me. I'm a little guy though. 5'10'' 180 or so lbs.

Piston rifles though, midlengths are the only way to go.

Carbine length piston guns recoil too much, and bring me off target, whereas my midlength A3 keeps me on target just fine.

Maybe there's something wrong with me though for liking carbines more.

Even so, I really do enjoy this article.

[wild_wild_wes]

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii173/USPx4/infantrycombatrangesgraph.jpg

[JHC]

Of the 10-12K rounds I purchase and shoot each year, 80% of it is pistol and I fall into the group that can't really tell the difference. EXCEPT when recently fam-firing a friends 14.5" BCM mid length alternately with my N4 Recce 16". The advantage of the BCM was pretty dramatic to me - and that's between two mid lengths! But between my N4 carbine and N4 Recce? Blindfolded ( :eek: ) I don't know that I could tell ya.

[Kentucky Cop]

Indeed. And for going through doorways / around corners.

http://noveskerifleworks.com/imimg/lsb-556_1d.jpg

Dumb question, whats the length on that rifle? 11.5 or is it a 14.5 with the pig attached to bring it to the required 16. Sorry, I can only carry a 16 inch barrel so I am not good at "eyeballing" the barrel length. However, rifle is nice.

Ky Cop

[Dump1567]

Dumb question, whats the length on that rifle? 11.5 or is it a 14.5 with the pig attached to bring it to the required 16. Sorry, I can only carry a 16 inch barrel so I am not good at "eyeballing" the barrel length. However, rifle is nice.

Ky Cop

I'm not the original poster, but it's a Noveske 10.5" Light Shorty, BASIC.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lsb-556&cat=101&page=1&search=&since=&status=

If your limited to 16", you would want the 13.7" Infidel w/KH3 permanetly attached for an OAL of 16". Unfortanetly, I don't think they're in-stock very often. But I'm sure a good smith could cut down a barrel and pin a KH3 for you.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=137v-556&cat=101&page=1&search=&since=&status=

Noveske 13.7 Infidel
http://noveskerifleworks.com/imimg/137v-556_1d.jpg

[Kentucky Cop]

Dump, thanks a bunch. My agency doesnt have BCM or Noveske on the carry list. Yeah, I know, don't get me started. :rolleyes:

I am leaning towards the new Smith 15TS that is 14.5 with the perma flash hider attached or whatever its called to bring it to the required 16. Its either that rifle or pull the 6920 out thats stock and make it look like stickmans magpul illumination picture. Oh, I hate decisions.

make my 6920 like this http://www.flickr.com/photos/stickgunner/4567328752/
or wait and buy this http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/811024_large.jpg







Ky Cop

[Fire_Medic]

Dump, thanks a bunch. My agency doesnt have BCM or Noveske on the carry list. Yeah, I know, don't get me started. :rolleyes:

I am leaning towards the new Smith 15TS that is 14.5 with the perma flash hider attached or whatever its called to bring it to the required 16. Its either that rifle or pull the 6920 out thats stock and make it look like stickmans magpul illumination picture. Oh, I hate decisions.

make my 6920 like this http://www.flickr.com/photos/stickgunner/4567328752/
or wait and buy this http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/811024_large.jpg







Ky Cop

Convert your 6920 as per pm..... :D