View Full Version : School me on 7.62 NATO GI mil spec
I am new to the round. I know LC sells XM80 GI mil spec to the public. I have seen Winchester Q3130 as well, is this GI mil spec and the same thing as the XM80, just made by another company? Are there any others? Do they all have the same weight/muzzle velocity? Or are they different and only the XM80 is the real deal?
Hayseed_40
05-17-10, 10:58
also, where does XM762D come into all this?
m1a_scoutguy
05-17-10, 12:00
I am new to the round. I know LC sells XM80 GI mil spec to the public. I have seen Winchester Q3130 as well, is this GI mil spec and the same thing as the XM80, just made by another company? Are there any others? Do they all have the same weight/muzzle velocity? Or are they different and only the XM80 is the real deal?
I'm no expert,,but I "think" that if it has the NATO Cross on it it should be all the same spec. :rolleyes: But with that said,,I have shot lots of different types of NATO Spec Ammo,,and they all vary to some degree. I would say the Winchester Q3130 is Mil Spec,,all I have seen with those markings have the NATO Cross and normally marked with the year also (68,82,02,06,08,09 for example) The NATO symbol is a circle with a X in it in case you have never seen it & I think that means the case itself needs to be the same spec,,Military Cases are normally thicker than Commercial cases,,,so they hold LESS powder than commercial,,thats how people get in trouble,,they use the same load as for there standard 308 and dump the same amount of powder in a Mil spec case and its over flowing or compressed,,maybe OK for a Bolt gun,,but not a Service rifle.
If you can find some Winny Q3130 for a good price,,buy it up,,,its good to go !!! :)
I'm sending this thread back to the top because I'd also like some more information. I want to develop reloads for my AR-10 that meet the M80 standard.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-24-10, 01:09
I'm interested too in some cheaper mil-surp 7.62. I notice that the XM80 on Palmetto and the DAG ammo says that it will attract magnets. Does that mean that it is steel core and will tear up metal targets? Are the bullets not brass - and will they tear up barrels?
The XM118 175gr stuff, I've seen some comments that this eats up steel at less than 400 yards?
With XM80 and XM118, what do the "X" and "CS" mean?
It seems like PMC Bronze is the cheapest commercial ammo? Any other suggestions out there?
I'm no expert,,but I "think" that if it has the NATO Cross on it it should be all the same spec. :rolleyes: But with that said,,I have shot lots of different types of NATO Spec Ammo,,and they all vary to some degree. I would say the Winchester Q3130 is Mil Spec,,all I have seen with those markings have the NATO Cross and normally marked with the year also (68,82,02,06,08,09 for example) The NATO symbol is a circle with a X in it in case you have never seen it & I think that means the case itself needs to be the same spec,,Military Cases are normally thicker than Commercial cases,,,so they hold LESS powder than commercial,,thats how people get in trouble,,they use the same load as for there standard 308 and dump the same amount of powder in a Mil spec case and its over flowing or compressed,,maybe OK for a Bolt gun,,but not a Service rifle.
If you can find some Winny Q3130 for a good price,,buy it up,,,its good to go !!! :)
Uhh, not quite...
There's been alot of discussion on the subject of Mil cases vs commerical and from what I've read, the idea that the Mil cases are thicker is'nt true..one way to find out would be to take one of each (mil case and a commerical) check them to make sure both have the same OAL, and fill them with water, measure how much water they each hold. I'll bet they'll both be close to the same..As far as using the same loads in a bolt gun vs a service rifle, you're overlooking a couple of things..with a M14, M1 garand, both of these rifles were designed around a certian powder with a certian burn rate, Get too far from that burn rate and you can damage the rifle, not from the load, but from overgassing the gas system itself. If the gas system is overgassed, you have too much pressure in the gas system, this in turn causes a increase in bolt velocity, and causes the bolt to literally be slammed into the heel of the receiver, do this long enough, and the receiver heel will crack, another result is the possible bending of the Op-rod. With other Semi-Auto rifles this is'nt so much of a problem, a FAL has a adjustable gas system,One can add more or less gas as needed. DI 308s, are self regulating, HK G3's are basically delayed blowback's and don't have a "gas system" they rely on flutes cut into the chamber.I'm pretty sure these rifles could shoot commerical .308 without problems, I know with the PTR I had, I loaded ammo with loads that basically were for a bolt gun, and shot them without any problems.
m1a_scoutguy
07-24-10, 16:39
Uhh, not quite...
There's been alot of discussion on the subject of Mil cases vs commercial and from what I've read, the idea that the Mil cases are thicker isn't true..one way to find out would be to take one of each (mil case and a commercial) check them to make sure both have the same OAL, and fill them with water, measure how much water they each hold. I'll bet they'll both be close to the same..As far as using the same loads in a bolt gun vs a service rifle, you're overlooking a couple of things..with a M14, M1 garand, both of these rifles were designed around a certain powder with a certain burn rate, Get too far from that burn rate and you can damage the rifle, not from the load, but from over gassing the gas system itself. If the gas system is over gassed, you have too much pressure in the gas system, this in turn causes a increase in bolt velocity, and causes the bolt to literally be slammed into the heel of the receiver, do this long enough, and the receiver heel will crack, another result is the possible bending of the Op-rod. With other Semi-Auto rifles this isn't so much of a problem, a FAL has a adjustable gas system,One can add more or less gas as needed. DI 308s, are self regulating, HK G3's are basically delayed blowback's and don't have a "gas system" they rely on flutes cut into the chamber.I'm pretty sure these rifles could shoot commercial .308 without problems, I know with the PTR I had, I loaded ammo with loads that basically were for a bolt gun, and shot them without any problems.
Hey ralph,,I hear ya,,that why I included I'm no expert !;) And the "Key" statement is from what I read,,that where alot of people get into trouble,,they read it and there for it must be true !!!! When it comes to reloading,,reading is good,,BUT doing is better ! I agree,,I have always downloaded Mil-Spec cases because I was always "told" they were thicker,,,but also agree,,that taking two cases with the same OAL and fill them with water is the only true way to find out for sure. I must of made it sound like I would take Ammo loaded for a Bolt gun and it would be Ok for a M1a type rifle,,,,,,that's my Bad for sure !!!:eek:I would NEVER do that,,I have had M1a/M-14 style rifles for over 10 years and thats a big no-no for sure !!! I would take any load I had for my M1a & run it in my bolt gun with 0 problems or fear of over pressure and such,but would not go the other way !! I am aware of the pressure and the possible bending of the op-rod if you don't use the correct burn rates and correct load amounts,,you sure can get into trouble if your not aware of such things !!! :( Anyways,,thanks for the reply to the thread,,I forgot all about this one,,,LOL,,,,and you relayed some GREAT info for sure,,especially if other guys are thinking about reloading for there Service Rifles,,no matter what it is,,M1/M1a,,or even the AR,,being that they are gas guns,,there is special care that should be taken. Ya got me thinkin to ralph,,I think I'm gonna go check a couple cases,,both commercial and mil-spec and see what I come up with !!!! I'll keep ya posted !! :)
I'm interested too in some cheaper mil-surp 7.62. I notice that the XM80 on Palmetto and the DAG ammo says that it will attract magnets. Does that mean that it is steel core and will tear up metal targets? Are the bullets not brass - and will they tear up barrels?
The XM118 175gr stuff, I've seen some comments that this eats up steel at less than 400 yards?
With XM80 and XM118, what do the "X" and "CS" mean?
It seems like PMC Bronze is the cheapest commercial ammo? Any other suggestions out there?
A lot of European military 7.62x51mm was/is loaded with a bullet with a lead core, then a mild steel subjacket, with copper gilding over it. The steel jacket is very mild, it won't tear up barrels or they wouldn't have used it as a service round.
Portuguese, Spanish, Austrian, and German are the rounds with steel subjackets I've had experience with as surplus and it's all been good.
British, Australian, and South African use a lead core bullet with copper jackets, like USGI. All of this stuff is good to go as well.
Avoid surplus from third world countries, i.e. India, Pakistan, Columbia.
Hey ralph,,I hear ya,,that why I included I'm no expert !;) And the "Key" statement is from what I read,,that where alot of people get into trouble,,they read it and there for it must be true !!!! When it comes to reloading,,reading is good,,BUT doing is better ! I agree,,I have always downloaded Mil-Spec cases because I was always "told" they were thicker,,,but also agree,,that taking two cases with the same OAL and fill them with water is the only true way to find out for sure. I must of made it sound like I would take Ammo loaded for a Bolt gun and it would be Ok for a M1a type rifle,,,,,,that's my Bad for sure !!!:eek:I would NEVER do that,,I have had M1a/M-14 style rifles for over 10 years and thats a big no-no for sure !!! I would take any load I had for my M1a & run it in my bolt gun with 0 problems or fear of over pressure and such,but would not go the other way !! I am aware of the pressure and the possible bending of the op-rod if you don't use the correct burn rates and correct load amounts,,you sure can get into trouble if your not aware of such things !!! :( Anyways,,thanks for the reply to the thread,,I forgot all about this one,,,LOL,,,,and you relayed some GREAT info for sure,,especially if other guys are thinking about reloading for there Service Rifles,,no matter what it is,,M1/M1a,,or even the AR,,being that they are gas guns,,there is special care that should be taken. Ya got me thinkin to ralph,,I think I'm gonna go check a couple cases,,both commercial and mil-spec and see what I come up with !!!! I'll keep ya posted !! :)
M1A Scoutguy;
I think my reply may have been a little confusing...The point I was trying to make (and I did'nt do a very good job of it) Is that the actions of rifles like a M1, M14, are plenty strong enough to handle a commerical .308 round, The problem is,(as most of us here know) the gas system is'nt up to the challange, So we have to pay attention to the powders used in them. Anyway, for sure let us all know what you find out with the water test..:D
m1a_scoutguy
07-24-10, 21:36
M1A Scoutguy;
I think my reply may have been a little confusing...The point I was trying to make (and I didn't do a very good job of it) Is that the actions of rifles like a M1, M14, are plenty strong enough to handle a commercial .308 round, The problem is,(as most of us here know) the gas system isn't up to the challenge, So we have to pay attention to the powders used in them. Anyway, for sure let us all know what you find out with the water test..:D
Hey ralph,,I agree,,,ya gotta be careful with powder,,charges & bullet weights !!! I just got back off of Vaca.,,for a few days,,,but I will check a few cases on Sunday and get back at ya !!!!:)
http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz29/mhanna91/Black%20Guns/308jpg.jpg
I too am interested on stocking up on some inexpensive milsurp 7.62x51. I was looking around and found this pretty cheap. Would anyone know what it is? They are the green boxes that say "308 Winchester" on the front. Item description says that it is 150 gr ammo. Any ideas? Sorry I'm new to this milsurp ammo.
That is Czech manufactured 7.62x51mm.
It's the only CORROSIVE 7.62x51mm surplus that I'm aware of.
If you're willing to deal with clean up after corrosive ammo use, have at it, but theres other ammo on the market that I'd buy before that stuff.
SAMCO Global has been sitting on that stuff for about 15 years or so and could never sell it, until the drought of good surplus 7.62x51mm hit a couple years ago.
http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz29/mhanna91/Black%20Guns/308jpg.jpg
I too am interested on stocking up on some inexpensive milsurp 7.62x51. I was looking around and found this pretty cheap. Would anyone know what it is? They are the green boxes that say "308 Winchester" on the front. Item description says that it is 150 gr ammo. Any ideas? Sorry I'm new to this milsurp ammo.
Thank you very much for that info! I knew there was something fishy for that price. So what is the best way to stock up on boxer primed 7.62x51? PMC or South African?
The lowest price I have found for PMC is from Palmetto State Armory which is $.57 per round when you buy 500 rounds. Found the South African for $.46 per round but just realized it is Berden primed. I guess Its PMC for me unless there are any better options out there...
For a GI ball load in .308, I've had great luck with the Win USA Q3130. Consistent velocities, acceptable to good accuracy, and folks like the brass when I'm done with it.
I've shot the port, aus, german, and other imports. No significant complaints, but the Q has been good to me and is commercially available in reasonable supply.
hey Templar,
What's up with the Pakistani stuff? I've got about 800 rounds of the stuff and it caught me by surprise that you said to stay away from it. Anything so horrible that one would want to sell it off or destroy it?
hey Templar,
What's up with the Pakistani stuff? I've got about 800 rounds of the stuff and it caught me by surprise that you said to stay away from it. Anything so horrible that one would want to sell it off or destroy it?
Extremely bad QC. Overloaded rounds, underloaded rounds, brittle brass, just bad all around.
Think about why something would be surplussed? The Europeans, Australians, and South Africans relegated their 7.62x51mm main battle rifles to either reserves or surplus. They got rid of a large part of their ammunition because they don't have a service rifle that chambers it anymore. Australia kept all of the 7.62x51mm that was linked for their MAG-58's, but surplussed their rifle ammo.
India, Pakistan, et. al, still actively issue 7.62x51mm service rifles (India has a version of the L1A1, Pakistan issues the G3). If it's so bad that the Pakistanis can't use it, why would I want to put it in my rifle?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/India-Pakistan/PakistaniG3-1.jpg
Good rule of thumb.....
If they piss in their drinking water, you don't want their ammo.
Good rule of thumb.....
If they piss in their drinking water, you don't want their ammo.
Awesome.
Apropos for much more than ammo, too.
Uhh, not quite...
There's been alot of discussion on the subject of Mil cases vs commerical and from what I've read, the idea that the Mil cases are thicker is'nt true..o
You are confusing 5.56/.223, where that statement is true; with .308.7.62x51, where it is not true. There can be significant differences in internal volume for commercial .308 and military spec 7.62 brass. Enough to ruin you day if swapping from commercial to mil brass for an already high pressure load.
Chronograph some identical reloads with commercial and surplus military 7.62 brass and see for yourself.
So called differences in SAAMI .308 Vs military 7.62 maximum pressures is not the issue some think it is due to the differences in testing methods between the two. However the thicker 7.62 brass is considered safer in an over-sized chamber such as one that is near military field gauge specs.
You are confusing 5.56/.223, where that statement is true; with .308.7.62x51, where it is not true. There can be significant differences in internal volume for commercial .308 and military spec 7.62 brass. Enough to ruin you day if swapping from commercial to mil brass for an already high pressure load.
Chronograph some identical reloads with commercial and surplus military 7.62 brass and see for yourself.
So called differences in SAAMI .308 Vs military 7.62 maximum pressures is not the issue some think it is due to the differences in testing methods between the two. However the thicker 7.62 brass is considered safer in an over-sized chamber such as one that is near military field gauge specs.
Shootist;
That's good info to know, you learn something new everyday..I don't have any .308's at present..I sold my last .308, (PTR91), a little while ago,Basically,I got tired of dumping money into a rifle that was'nt reliable, and having to fix PTR's build issues..(the addage about polishing a turd comes to mind here)Anyway, thanks again, and if I ever get into the .308 game again,(doubful that'll happen, as I can't afford a LMT) I'll keep what you said in mind..
Military cases tend to get thicker towards the case webs. Reduced internal volume is a concern for reloaders. This is of particular concern for the 7.62x51 and 30-06
A lot of European military 7.62x51mm was/is loaded with a bullet with a lead core, then a mild steel subjacket, with copper gilding over it. The steel jacket is very mild, it won't tear up barrels or they wouldn't have used it as a service round.
Portuguese, Spanish, Austrian, and German are the rounds with steel subjackets I've had experience with as surplus and it's all been good.
British, Australian, and South African use a lead core bullet with copper jackets, like USGI. All of this stuff is good to go as well.
Avoid surplus from third world countries, i.e. India, Pakistan, Columbia.
I've shot up a bunch of Winchester and LC 7.62mm in the past whose bullets would stick to a magnet. The headstamps were WCC 94 and LC 98 FWIW. Haven't shot any of the new stuff to say there.
I have seen a lot of WWB and UMC .45 ball that was steel, too.
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