View Full Version : Are there any doctors in the house?
I have a question regarding gallbladder stones. I am having several gallbladder attacks a week now, and I am scheduled for surgery to have it removed in two weeks. My doctor told me the "only" treatment is to remove the gallbladder, however I just stumbled onto a treatment that actually works.
The last three attacks that I have had this week I ate a cup of grapefruit and drank maybe 6 oz of grapefruit juice (pretty much what was in the cup) and my attacks ended within ten minutes. At first I just thought it was coincidence; but three times in a row that is not a coincidence.
So I googled it and sure enough there is a treatment to flush the gallbladder with olive oil and grapefruit juice to soften and remove stones. Of course it says nothing about grapefruit juice to stop an attack.
Why would a doctor tell me there is no other treatment than to remove the gallbladder, when there is obviously a safer treatment out there?
Lance Armstrong has all the $ in the world and access to the best medical care and he still had to spend an astronomical amount of his own time researching how to get the right treatment to survive cancer.
I broke my back in 2 places in 2001 while working in French Polynesia and had some of the top surgeons in the country lie and blow sunshine up my ass and thru my own research, a $75 an hour medical consultant, 6 attorneys and boocooooooo research "I" figured out how to get fixed. It sucks but you gotta do your own research! Don't just trust your Doc!
What probably bothers me most; well maybe there are two things that bother me most about the whole situation:
First and foremost is that my doctor just plain lied to my face.
Second is that there is actually a treatment for something like this that:
1. Doesn't damage your liver
2. Doesn't mask your symptoms
3. Stops the pain immediately
4. Is actually healthy
5. Is an extremely cheap treatment
All of the above and not one single doctor that I have seen regarding my gallbladder has even mentioned it as a possible treatment. Or even a suggestion for that matter to help with the pain.
Why would a doctor tell me there is no other treatment than to remove the gallbladder, when there is obviously a safer treatment out there?
I wonder if it has to do with the way our docs are trained? Western medicine puts more emphasis on surgical and pharmaceutical therapies.
My wife had hers removed a couple months ago. Her Dr was kinda a free spirit hippie kind of doctor and my wife asked her about these treatments.
She said the problem with them is they dont always work as intended. You can have stones in there that are to big to pass. She was worried that a large stone would get stuck in the tube and that my wife would need emergency surgery.
DocCasualty
05-15-10, 14:18
What probably bothers me most; well maybe there are two things that bother me most about the whole situation:
First and foremost is that my doctor just plain lied to my face.
Second is that there is actually a treatment for something like this that:
1. Doesn't damage your liver
2. Doesn't mask your symptoms
3. Stops the pain immediately
4. Is actually healthy
5. Is an extremely cheap treatment
All of the above and not one single doctor that I have seen regarding my gallbladder has even mentioned it as a possible treatment. Or even a suggestion for that matter to help with the pain.
Can you cite even one well controlled scientific study that supports this treatment? Testimonials and anectodal stories don't count. The reason no doctor has recommended this is no doctor has ever learned that this is an acceptable treatment. If I'm wrong and there is good, credible scientific evidence to the contrary, then I will change my mind, as that is the way of science.
There is one rare type of gallbladder stone that is amenable to chemical treatment with a pill. I seem to remember some treatment where a catheter is inserted in the GB and flushed with some solution but don't recall details, don't know if anybody is doing it and I know of no other accepted chemical treatment. I have no idea why grapefruit aborts your attacks but good for you and if keeps working, it's hard to beat success. This actually brings up a very important point that despite good evidenced-based medical treatments, the placebo effect is undeniable. It used to be assumed to account for 15-20% of effect in studies but some now think it might actually be 75-80% in some cases. The human body is an amazing thing.
Does Western medicine put more emphasis on surgical and pharmaceutical therapies? Probably so but again, mostly because they have been demonstrated to work. Sorry, I don't buy the theory that it is all a conspiracy of the rich and powerful pharm and surgical supply companies. Sure they drive a lot of what happens but I'll step out on the limb and say that if good credible evidence existed that drinking grapefruit juice and sipping olive oil cured cholelithiasis (gallbladder disease due to stones) every doctor in America and beyond would be recommeding it as of right now. Maybe it will be shown to be the initial treatment of choice and as I said previously, then so be it. Crazier sounding things have been discovered previously.
When it comes to Western medicine, I would agree that on the face value, more emphasis seems to be placed on treatment than prevention. I think physicians are culpable in part but the problem is more societal in nature than that alone. We've come up with some fantastic treatment options for coronary artery disease like balloon angioplasty, stenting, percutaeous intra-arterial lasers, coronary artery bypass grafting, etc. Despite good medical evidence and advice for decades to maintain ideal weight, avoid fatty foods, don't smoke, etc., these remain the greatest reason we have these technologies. A cardiologist is happy to make a couple of grand from doing one of these procedures but everyone I know spends a considerable amount of time preaching prevention. I have never been to a cardiology conference where this is not discussed.
The question is, will simply removing the stones truly eradicate the problem? There are people who have gallstones for years, never know it and never seemingly have any problems. The sage wisdom has been that once they become symptomatic, they will continue to be so and yes, acute cholecystitis can indeed become a very painful and serious/life-threating condition. It is generally believed that a diseased gallbladder will continue to produce stones and removal is the only solution. Maybe we'll have a better way in the future, who knows? The general trend in medicine has been away from surgical answers to many problems and this may ultimately be another one.
As to the individual who sought out an effective treatment, that's excellent! Are all physicians idiots? No. Are all physicians God? Absolutely not. Yes, everybody needs to trust their physician, ask questions and become educated. There is a wide gamut here that we are talking about. There are things that are fairly straightforward but almost nothing is in medicine, even something as seeminly mundane as the common sore throat when it comes to diagnosis and treatment. You start talking back and spinal problems and you can have honest diametrically opposed opinions from the best names in the business.
Please take nothing I have said as medical advice but merely just thoughts offered up in a friendly discussion. I have never personally experienced a "gallbladder attack" but see people with them all of the time and it looks like a miserable experience. Good luck to you and I hope you find a good resolution to your problem.
--------------------------
an additional thought: I've actually wondered for 25 years or more if there might not be some better chemical treatment (and that could be a food substance or dietary ratio or . . .) for preventing gallstone formation. Unless the thinking has changed, gallstones form due to an imbalance in bile from the triad of bile salts, lecithin and cholesterol. I have to believe somebody has/is/continues to look at this. Maybe if I get bored in the ED tonight I'll try to do a literature search and see what's new on this front.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-15-10, 14:33
Sissy! If you are going to tout the internet cure you have to go all the way with the coffee enema. Or a real man would get an expresson enema, hot, no foam, extra cinnamon.
http://www.hidden-cancer-cures.com/enema-and-liver-cleanse.htm
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-15-10, 14:35
an additional thought: I've actually wondered for 25 years or more if there might not be some better chemical treatment (and that could be a food substance or dietary ratio or . . .) for preventing gallstone formation. Unless the thinking has changed, gallstones form due to an imbalance in bile from the triad of bile salts, lecithin and cholesterol. I have to believe somebody has/is/continues to look at this. Maybe if I get bored in the ED tonight I'll try to do a literature search and see what's new on this front.
Isn't it fertile, fat and fourty that are the triggers for gall bladder issues?
DocCasualty
05-15-10, 15:11
Isn't it fertile, fat and fourty that are the triggers for gall bladder issues?
"Fat, female, fecund and forty" is the classic saying. Not triggers so much as a high probability presentation. Like most things though, the disease has rarely read the textbook. I think over time, this may not be so classically the case an longer, not sure. Obesity is rampant, everybody's cholesterol is high or they're eating too much saturated fat and so forth. I'm always surprised by the young, skinny girls I see with this diagnosis and they are not rare.
Still a year out from being a doctor :) but will offer my 2 cents.
DocCasualty really nailed it. Your doctor is not going to offer treatment options to you that don't have some sort of scientific evidence to back them as legitimate treatments. Talk about liabilty...
It's certainly your right to refuse survey and try any method you wish. I just did a quick glance on uptodate and couple other databases and saw no mention of evidence or studies looking these "natural" methods. There is some medical therapy that can sometimes be used to dissolve stones, ursodiol and chenodiol, but really only indicated for those who are unwilling or too high risk for surgery and only for certain type/size stones. And even then from what I read really only effective in 1/2 - 2/3 cases.
Pretty much for symptomatic stones getting the gallbladder out is the definitie treatment. There is certianly the option of just waiting it out but chances are that it will continue to reoccur, and with possibility of complications such as infection/cholecystitis, or even pancreatitis.
Just trying to think through the anatomy/physiology of the gallbladder here and I just fail to see how grapefruit juice and olive oil can dissolve gallstones with much effectiveness. Bile is produced by the liver and then secreted into ducts within the liver that eventually drain into and stored in gallbladder until it contracts to release the bile into GI tract in response to a fatty meal. I could possibly see where grapefruit juice may resolve symptoms, but then again anything that is not going to cause gallbladder contraction might help symptoms, but the stones are still there.
Instead of thinking that your doctor lied to you, what about asking him/her what they think of this treatment? They can't possibly offer you every available alternative treatment, especially when it has not been tested.
not one single doctor that I have seen regarding my gallbladder has even mentioned it as a possible treatment.
Because it's not a scientifically/medically accepted treatment, that's why. Some "alternative" treatments have merit, many do not, and few docs have time to research which is which, etc. Thus, you have to do it and be your own best advocate. That, or find a doc who us up on the various alternative treatments.
I spend all day researching such things, and I have never heard of that treatment for that particular medical issue either, so....
>>Just trying to think through the anatomy/physiology of the gallbladder here and I just fail to see how grapefruit juice and olive oil can dissolve gallstones with much effectiveness. Bile is produced by the liver and then secreted into ducts within the liver that eventually drain into and stored in gallbladder until it contracts to release the bile into GI tract in response to a fatty meal. <<
Bingo!!!!! Nothing goes INTO the biliary duct system, including grapefruit juice, olive oil, etc. (As already mentioned - you CAN insert a small catheter in there for lavage - but that's a different therapy altogether.) Anecdotal "research" is one step above voodoo - but none the less flourishes on the Errornet.
FWIW - No - I'm not a physician. However, I have taught Anatomy & Physiology and Pathophysiology for 30 plus years (in addition to Forensic Science - which has no application here:). If I were in your shoes - I'd have em yank the damned thing out. It's all done with lap scopes nowadays, and you'll be back to work the next day - or at least my officemate was. And if she can - you can:) FWIW - she was female, fat & 40:)
jm
I remember as a kid when you went to the Doc it was going to take half the day and you just expected that. The reason it took so long is the Doc stayed with the patient until he was finished with that patient. Now you never wait more than 30 min and they have a business model that is structured to see patients for 5-10 min tops. Fast Food Medicine in & out. If you go in for migraines and stomach pain they will discuss the migraines and you must make a second appointment for the stomach pains. Its BS!
Also as for treatment all the Doc's are in bed with pharmaceutical companies. They get kickbacks (legal) for proscribing certain medicines and procedures.
When you ask for a referral to a specialist the Doc is going to only recommend the Docs that he/she gets referral fees from them and won't tell you "the best" Doc, but the one that will send them a referral fee.
Then you throw in the influence of the Insurance companies and it gets more depressing.
I don't believe in Nationalized Health Care for all, but I wish we had regulations that stopped the corruption.
Belmont31R
05-15-10, 16:40
I remember as a kid when you went to the Doc it was going to take half the day and you just expected that. The reason it took so long is the Doc stayed with the patient until he was finished with that patient. Now you never wait more than 30 min and they have a business model that is structured to see patients for 5-10 min tops. Fast Food Medicine in & out. If you go in for migraines and stomach pain they will discuss the migraines and you must make a second appointment for the stomach pains. Its BS!
Also as for treatment all the Doc's are in bed with pharmaceutical companies. They get kickbacks (legal) for proscribing certain medicines and procedures.
When you ask for a referral to a specialist the Doc is going to only recommend the Docs that he/she gets referral fees from them and won't tell you "the best" Doc, but the one that will send them a referral fee.
Then you throw in the influence of the Insurance companies and it gets more depressing.
I don't believe in Nationalized Health Care for all, but I wish we had regulations that stopped the corruption.
Thats why you be a consumer, and shop around. I don't put up with docs that do the in and out shit.
Also we got a monthly discount card with a local "urgent care" facility that is really reasonably priced, and can handle most common issues. Its far cheaper to go there than to a regular family doctor, and the family doctor doesn't have the resources this place has. You pay a flat monthly fee, and then each visit is a set cash rate.
We also figured out our county has a health clinic you can go to for shots for the kids. Again far cheaper than the family doctor, and you pay based on your income. Anyone can go, and it beats the 250+ per kid a regular doctor wants just to give kids their immunizations and stick them on a scale.
Also if you are pretty healthy as a family (as we are) when you go see a doctor always ask for the cash price instead of letting your insurance get dinged, and then you end up paying the much higher insurance rate until your deductible is met.
IMO a lot of the reasons why health care is so expensive is because everyone expects insurance to pay for everything, and thus they see no incentive to be smart, and shop around. Even without a mega dollar insurance plan you can get treated for most common things very cheaply, and then you can spend way less on insurance. We used to have a top insurance plan, and we were spending enormous amounts of money each month for nothing. Got smart, and now our HC expenditures are less than a 1/3rd they were 2 years ago.
Of course do your own research outside of what a doctor tells you. They are human, and not perfect. My mom died last year, and I am 100% sure it was due to all the medications her docs had her on for way too long. Docs like to sit down with you for 10 minutes, and then just push a pill on you. I should have done more to see what each thing she was taking is, and what is it for. When we cleaned out her place after her death she had 30+ pill bottles. Half of them to cure side affects of the other half. Really disgusting how quickly someone can go in for one thing, and before they know it their life is a mess because of all the shit they are told to take.
Also as for treatment all the Doc's are in bed with pharmaceutical companies. They get kickbacks (legal) for proscribing certain medicines and procedures.
My mom died last year, and I am 100% sure it was due to all the medications her docs had her on for way too long. Docs like to sit down with you for 10 minutes, and then just push a pill on you. I should have done more to see what each thing she was taking is, and what is it for. When we cleaned out her place after her death she had 30+ pill bottles. Half of them to cure side affects of the other half. Really disgusting how quickly someone can go in for one thing, and before they know it their life is a mess because of all the shit they are told to take.
I recently went in for a check up....
Two months,half a dozen appointments for different tests/procedures,and a half dozen new drugs in my cabinet later...
I "may have a mild case of asthma".
I made the mistake of mentioning some very mild symptoms that only occasionally even show themselves.Now I'm supposed to be popping all kinds of pills with long lists of possible side affects and taking an inhaler which according to the literature "works by weakening the immune system"!...That's not a side affect,that's how it works?!
No thanks.
I also made the mistake of telling one of these doctors that I occasionally got sleepy when driving at night,watching tv in the evening,and the wife says I snore.
Now they want me to go stay the night in some "sleep study" because I may have sleep apnea.I should have know when I went into the waiting room(supposed to be checking on my "mild case of asthma") and all the literature was about?...Take a guess.:rolleyes:
Glad I didn't mention my occasional restless leg.
DocCasualty
05-15-10, 17:05
Also as for treatment all the Doc's are in bed with pharmaceutical companies. They get kickbacks (legal) for proscribing certain medicines and procedures.
When you ask for a referral to a specialist the Doc is going to only recommend the Docs that he/she gets referral fees from them and won't tell you "the best" Doc, but the one that will send them a referral fee.
Wow, what a stupid shill I've been! 25 years and I've never received anything more than a coffee cup, cheap ballpoint pen or a fruitbasket at Christmas. You'll be happy to know that your Congress has nearly abolished those enticing pens (yeah, the late Ted Kennedy was looking at my ethics . . .) and any discovered kickback of any kind as far as any kind of referral will bring the DOJ in so fast, it would redefine blitzkrieg. I believe this kind of thinking is referred to on the internet as "drinking the Kool-Aid", I could be wrong. Nonetheless, I respect your right to have a different opinion.
You actually have some other very legitimate concerns you expressed. I wish I had the time to offer some counter-points and maybe in time I will.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-15-10, 17:52
Wow, what a stupid shill I've been! 25 years and I've never received anything more than a coffee cup, cheap ballpoint pen or a fruitbasket at Christmas. You'll be happy to know that your Congress has nearly abolished those enticing pens (yeah, the late Ted Kennedy was looking at my ethics . . .) and any discovered kickback of any kind as far as any kind of referral will bring the DOJ in so fast, it would redefine blitzkrieg. I believe this kind of thinking is referred to on the internet as "drinking the Kool-Aid", I could be wrong. Nonetheless, I respect your right to have a different opinion.
Glad to hear it, I thought my wife was hiding a revenue stream from me. Drug rep jobs used to be sweet deals, before the Berlin Wall fell.
Just wait until the govt gets all the efficacy of care programs running and the doc has a set script she has to run down and they can't even order anything outside the standard of care.
I have a question regarding gallbladder stones. I am having several gallbladder attacks a week now, and I am scheduled for surgery to have it removed in two weeks. My doctor told me the "only" treatment is to remove the gallbladder, however I just stumbled onto a treatment that actually works.
The last three attacks that I have had this week I ate a cup of grapefruit and drank maybe 6 oz of grapefruit juice (pretty much what was in the cup) and my attacks ended within ten minutes. At first I just thought it was coincidence; but three times in a row that is not a coincidence.
So I googled it and sure enough there is a treatment to flush the gallbladder with olive oil and grapefruit juice to soften and remove stones. Of course it says nothing about grapefruit juice to stop an attack.
Why would a doctor tell me there is no other treatment than to remove the gallbladder, when there is obviously a safer treatment out there?
I'm no doctor, but I am a first year Pharm.D. student. This may sound shocking, but our curriculum incorporates numerous non drug approaches, as long as there is evidence of safety and efficacy, which is not uncommon.
From a physiology standpoint, the grapefruit juice and olive oil will never make physical contact with the stones trapped inside the gall bladder. That is like saying pool water will get in your urinary bladder when you swim. However, grapefruit juice and olive oil will cause your gallbladder to contract like crazy because fats and acid stimulate CCK hormone release, which makes your gallbladder contract, sphincters to relax and increases bile production. This is because bile's job is to neutralize acid, and to break down fat, and that cocktail will definitely do that- this is not a medical secret. These actions will either flush out a portion of the stones, or it will cause larger stones to become stuck/worsen condition, which is a medical emergency.
As far as drinking/eating grapefruit juice to relieve the pain, that is interesting. I could take a couple of guesses on how this could happen, but neither one would involve the stones being dissolved or removed in any way. Rather, it would be a way to inhibit the gall bladder temporarily. It might work with oranges or too.
If the grapefruit works to stop the attacks, then do it to stop the attacks. Don't assume that stopping the attacks equals a cure or an effective treatment of anything but temporary symptoms. If you do the oil/juice cocktail just be aware that it could mean a hospital visit sooner than expected. I believe your doc gave you good advice and is not trying to deceive you.
I remember as a kid when you went to the Doc it was going to take half the day and you just expected that. The reason it took so long is the Doc stayed with the patient until he was finished with that patient. Now you never wait more than 30 min and they have a business model that is structured to see patients for 5-10 min tops. Fast Food Medicine in & out. If you go in for migraines and stomach pain they will discuss the migraines and you must make a second appointment for the stomach pains. Its BS!
Also as for treatment all the Doc's are in bed with pharmaceutical companies. They get kickbacks (legal) for proscribing certain medicines and procedures.
When you ask for a referral to a specialist the Doc is going to only recommend the Docs that he/she gets referral fees from them and won't tell you "the best" Doc, but the one that will send them a referral fee.
Then you throw in the influence of the Insurance companies and it gets more depressing.
I don't believe in Nationalized Health Care for all, but I wish we had regulations that stopped the corruption.
Do I get interest on those kickback checks because the pharmaceutical companies are about 12 years behind on mine. :rolleyes:
For what it's worth, nearly everything you've described has federal laws prohibiting it. If fact, allow me to direct you to the website so that you may read the law, its penalties, and how to report all these dastardly physicians.
http://starklaw.org/
A drug company handing you even a free pen is now illegal. Yes, about 3 decades ago there were golf trips, cruises, you name it funded through the different medical equipment and pharmaceutical companies. That was more outright bribery than kickbacks but nowadays unless someone is looking for some time in Leavenworth and the possible loss of their medical license and significant amounts of money then they aren't doing anything like what you describe.
Does it still happen? Maybe, but it would be an extreme exception rather than a rule.
Also, since you brought it up, we spend most of our time fighting with insurance companies to get paid. Amazingly they want to keep their money, not give it to us for services rendered. That's a simplification, of course, but it's a fact. Physicians and insurance companies are not "in bed together".
I actually was just following this thread and had not intended to post anything since discussions like this don't really solve anything. The OP thinks he was lied to and that his doc is hiding some magical remedy which would have prevented surgery. An idea like that is rarely extinguished through factual discussion.
But when people start accusing the medical community of shady dealings it just really burns me. Yes there are bad eggs in all professions but this trend towards distrusting docs like they were lawyers is beyond me. Don't like doctors? Don't go to one. Easy as that. But you also give up your right to whine when you have your heart attack or, in the OP's case get acute cholecystitis and gallstone pancreatitis requiring emergent rather than elective surgery because you've been drinking gallons of grapefruit juice (hope you're not taking a statin drug by the way) and olive oil because you read about it on Professor Hung's Eastern Medicine webpage or a chiropractic/holistic/real-doctors-suck webpage.
Rant off.
I never thought it to be the end all cure all cure to it. But I wanted some kind of relief to the pain while I waited on my surgery date. And when I asked my current surgeon if there was "anything" I could do to possibly stop an attack. Or even make it shorter. He said no. My attacks as they are currently last at a minimum of 8 hours. I have literally missed almost 21 days of work this year because of these attacks. I just can't take it anymore. I need relief of some sort until my surgery date comes up.
And when I stumbled on this purely by accident well more out of desperation than anything. I immediately started doing searches on it and came across many, many, many people that have found the same thing as me. This afternoon some of my friends have told me that apple juice as well as orange juice worked for them to halt the attacks immediately as well.
The cocktail mixture I described in my first post was more of a question than anything. It sounded a little too good to be true to me to be honest. But I thought I would try and ask a professional who isn't after my insurance money.
I know my post may have come across strong, believe it or not I wasn't trying to take a stab at the medical profession. I know you people are a lot more intelligent at diagnostics than us "Internet diagnosticians" could ever possibly be. I was just a little upset with my doctors not all doctors in general. But to be honest with you I have had to diagnose my own gallbladder stones. It has taken 4 long years to get a doctor to admit that I have them.
They kept telling me I didn't have the typical symptoms. But I couldn't think of anything else that it could possibly be. I knew it wasn't my heart. I had it checked 5 times. My cholesterol is normal, I am a 5'8" 149 LB male, so no I am not obese. I don't exhibit the typical gallbladder symptoms; such as pain on the right side nor pain to the back/shoulder area. Nor do I experience nausea. So I can understand why a doctor wouldn't believe me.
The pain that I have only happens at night while I'm in bed. Sitting up doesn't help either. I know it's not acid reflux. I've had that in the past and this is not that. Anyway the pain that I feel is a constant solid pain not a sharp pain. Almost feels like someone is sitting on my chest. The pain feels like it is right over my heart or maybe a tinge lower. It is always in the same place, and it never moves. And like I said the pain will always last 8-12 hours and never less than 8 hours.
Not one single doctor believed me for 4 long years of this that it was my gallbladder and they refused to order an ultrasound for me. I ended up going myself two weeks ago and paying for it out of my own pocket, since I couldn't get one ordered. And Lowe and Behold what do you know.. I have gallbladder stones. Now do you understand why I'm upset with my doctors?
Sorry for the rant.
For what it's worth, Fyrhazzrd, I bet your docs were just as frustrated as you were, but of course they weren't experiencing the pain and suffering you were.
Additionally, not all doctors are created equally.
Do you know what you call the guy that graduated last in his medical school class?
Doctor.
For what it's worth, Fyrhazzrd, I bet your docs were just as frustrated as you were, but of course they weren't experiencing the pain and suffering you were.
Additionally, not all doctors are created equally.
Do you know what you call the guy that graduated last in his medical school class?
Doctor.
ha ha.. that's a good one.. never really thought of it like that. I really am sorry if it sounded like I was putting down the medical profession. That wasn't my intention. I thought my post said that I was mad at "MY Doctor" for lying to me. I understand that they don't recognize any alternative medicines or treatments. But lets be realistic here for a minute. I'm not talking about going to a third world country to sip on bamboo tea with some herb I've never heard of that will probably cause brain cancer. All they would have said to me was that it is "possible" that grapefruit juice has been known to provide temporary relief from symptoms. But there is nothing official on that claim. I would have been fine with that. But to come out and say that there is no treatment available to provide any relief of the pain other than to just wait it out. That is just plain scary.
Edit: I only really have one more comment on another reply earlier in the thread regarding placebo effect. I could be wrong on my understanding of the placebo effect; so correct me if I am indeed wrong please:
My understanding is that you believe something is going to work so then by believing it your mind is tricking your body into thinking it has been cured. If that is in fact the way the placebo effect works then I don't believe that is what happened in my case. As I said earlier I found this out of pure accident. I was trying anything and everything in the medicine cabinet, fridge and pantry just to find some kind of relief. The stuff I thought would help relieve the pain (ibuprofen, acetaminophen, or tums/rolaids) did not. I mean I really believed this stuff would work. It did absolutely nothing. The rest of it was that I was in such pain I would just eat/drink something and see what happens. Then one night I seen a cup of ruby red grapefruit in the fridge, and ate it. Less than five minutes later the pain was completely gone. Even then I didn't think that was the problem.. I just laughed it off, thinking it was a coincidence since I had already endured about 7 hours of agony. So fast forward a few more days, I have another attack. I laid in bed moaning for an hour or two before I got up. I started rummaging through the fridge looking for something to eat or drink to test.. I decided hey I'll try the grapefruit again since it was at the end of the episode last time I tried it. And again less than five minutes all pain was gone. Then last night as soon as I started feeling pain. I grabbed the grapefruit.. Again all pain was gone within a couple minutes.
I don't know but the first two times I tried the grapefruit I really didn't believe it was going to work. Of course I wanted it to work, but I really wanted the other things to work as well, but they didn't.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-16-10, 00:46
Just out of curiosity, drink the same amount of water and see what happens.
Seems like grapefruit juice is mainly sugars, vitamin C and potassium and has some Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids, while orange juice has a similar profile with out the reported fatty acids. At least from the website I was looking at.
Try water, orange juice and maybe pineapple juice. And if that doesn't work, give your left foot a grapefruit juice bath and your right foot an olive oil bath. That should make your body a battery and at least cure your baldness.
Not a doctor, but I am a chemist who eats those Holiday Inn Express cinnamon rolls by the plate full - so you're pretty much guaranteed to die if you follow all my prescriptions.
SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
05-16-10, 01:06
You want silly elixirs and "miracle" fruit juice cures, go to those silly hippie health food stores and "eastern medicine" clinics and drop your money on useless junk, while getting stuck with little needles. Doctors are trained to provide you with valid known cures that are proven.
thopkins22
05-16-10, 01:54
I know A LOT of people who get headaches and decide that they need cigarettes and/or caffeine.
Should I distrust my doctor for calling BS? They did help after all right? Just because something alleviates the symptoms doesn't mean it's helped or even managed to not worsen the underlying cause.
Then again I'm a finance major applying to engineering schools...presumably they'll give me my medical license in a few weeks.
I know A LOT of people who get headaches and decide that they need cigarettes and/or caffeine.
Actually, caffeine does help with some types of headaches, is an effective analgesic adjuvant and is included in several analgesic combo medications such as Cafergot, Fiorinal, Fioricet (my personal favorite prescription for headaches), and Panlor.
Just wanted to point out that we will use anything that works for patients. In this case, caffeine has been studied to be effective.
thopkins22
05-16-10, 09:09
Just wanted to point out that we will use anything that works for patients. In this case, caffeine has been studied to be effective.
Sure, but what I meant is that feeding that addiction isn't necessarily a good thing. Or am I off base?
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-16-10, 11:42
Actually, caffeine does help with some types of headaches, is an effective analgesic adjuvant and is included in several analgesic combo medications such as Cafergot, Fiorinal, Fioricet (my personal favorite prescription for headaches), and Panlor.
Just wanted to point out that we will use anything that works for patients. In this case, caffeine has been studied to be effective.
Layin' down the lingo! You're just pissed you had to work yesterday and missed the match.
DocCasualty
05-16-10, 15:18
Sure, but what I meant is that feeding that addiction isn't necessarily a good thing. Or am I off base?
I should let jaydoc1 answer his own question, but you are correct. Many people who find they need caffeine for their headache are actually addicted to it and treating their withdrawal.
His point is well taken that there are many effective treatments which are as old as the hills, inexpensive and not driven by profit. All, regardless of whether they are available by prescription only, OTC and/or "natural remedies" have potential side-effects or adverse reactions.
Layin' down the lingo! You're just pissed you had to work yesterday and missed the match.
Maybe a little. :p
Let me clarify on the caffeine point.
Yes, withdrawal from caffeine can cause a raging headache but that is not what I am referring to. The addition of caffeine to other analgesics can potentiate (make stronger) their effect. In terms of headaches, themselves, caffeine is available to the brain within 6-8 minutes after it's consumed and acts to constrict the blood vessels there which can have a dramatic effect on a headache.
This happens whether you're addicted to caffeine or not. Withdrawal is a whoooole other thing.
he wasn't lying it is not a generally accepted treatment. It may or may not work. 80% of patients with GB disease have mild to sever self limited pain. 20% have a life threatening complication. The accepted treatment is surgery. In the past the stone could be shattered with lithotripsy however that is not generally available anymore for a variety of reasons I won't go into. So you don't trust your doctor but you trust advice you found on the internet good luck. BTW if he advised you to do something like drink grapefruit juice and you passed a stone and got bad pancreatitis or cholecystitis and died your estate would have sued him and won. Also btw the stimulus for the GB to contract is fat like olive oil and no it won't soften a stone frankly it is stupid. He could have given you some pain meds they will decrease the sphincter spasm and relive an attack.
he wasn't lying it is not a generally accepted treatment. It may or may not work. 80% of patients with GB disease have mild to sever self limited pain. 20% have a life threatening complication. The accepted treatment is surgery. In the past the stone could be shattered with lithotripsy however that is not generally available anymore for a variety of reasons I won't go into. So you don't trust your doctor but you trust advice you found on the internet good luck. BTW if he advised you to do something like drink grapefruit juice and you passed a stone and got bad pancreatitis or cholecystitis and died your estate would have sued him and won. Also btw the stimulus for the GB to contract is fat like olive oil and no it won't soften a stone frankly it is stupid. He could have given you some pain meds they will decrease the sphincter spasm and relive an attack.
Okay that makes sense, however you are missing something. You say if he recommended it and I somehow died from it then my estate could sue him. That is false if he tells me of the risks. In your example just by me getting the surgery. If I were to die from complications. Then my estate could sue. That is false since he told me about all of the complications that could take place.
And as I said before I'm not trusting the internet over my Doctor. I found something that actually stopped my pain and then I looked it up on the internet.
As far as the oil thing dissolving the stones. I thought it sounded like hogwash as well. But thought I would ask the professionals for their opinion. And I thank all of you for setting the record straight on that.
And as sad as it sounds, no I do not trust my doctor. After the ordeal that I have endured over the last four years I can't trust any of them.
thopkins22
05-17-10, 00:51
You say if he recommended it and I somehow died from it then my estate could sue him. That is false if he tells me of the risks. In your example just by me getting the surgery. If I were to die from complications. Then my estate could sue. That is false since he told me about all of the complications that could take place.
And yet it happens all the time. If you read the waivers you sign before surgery you sign off on pretty much every possible thing that can go wrong. People still sue and win.
I have had 4 surgeries (waiting for the 5th) in the last 5 years and have not had the best experience with the medical community. I do have some dramatic first hand experience stories. If more experienced and knowledgeable men here say that I'm off track I sincerely and humbly apologize and will listen with an open mind to any information that anyone says. I have not drank from the "errornet koolaid" and do not pretend to be an expert, but do have experience that has been mostly unpleasant.
I believe FromMyColdDeadHand's to be an honorable and intelligent man and my intentions were never to wildly malign a noble profession even if I believe it has been seriously undermined from within and from outside.
Okay, I just have one more question then. When I was in for my preop consult last week, he asked me if I had any questions. I of course said yes I do. And asked him if there was any food/drink that I need to avoid until my surgery. I told him that I heard some horror stories about eating raw vegetables from some friends. And he said to disregard anything I have heard because they are all old wives tales that hold no Merritt. There is no restriction in diet you'll be just fine.
So if you are telling me that the grapefruit juice could indeed harm me, wouldn't that give my estate even more reason to sue? My wife was in the room when he told me this.
grapefruit won't harm won't help. I am not going to give my opinion about your diet trust your surgeon. What I meant about litigation if someone told you it would cure you and to ignore the known proven therapies. MD are not perfect we do the best we can. I agree the profession is beset from within and without. anybody have any alternatives? :)
Like I said, I'm definitely having the surgery done.. I wasn't trying to find a way out of it. I am just waiting on a date right now.. It's looking like it will happen in about two weeks. But as I'm going right now, that will be at least another 7 or 8 attacks that I'm going to have to endure. So like I said I'm just looking for something to possibly stop an attack once it starts, or something to make them shorter. Minimum of 8 hours of pure hell, it really does suck monkey balls. :D
I don't know how much damage I have already done to myself trying different things just trying to get the attacks to stop. At one point I was popping Tums like they were candy. I don't know what damage I have done to the HCL levels in my stomach by doing so. I've been considering yogurt to try and rebuild some good bacteria in my stomach; in an attempt to fix some damage I might have caused. I honestly don't know if I did any damage, or not. But I don't know if there are any tests out there to check either.
So me taking grapefruit is not something I was looking for as an alternative to surgery; since I'm still going through with it. I was pretty much trying to figure out why it is stopping my attacks. And why my doctors don't see it as a treatment. But I guess I have my answer on that one. I guess if a study hasn't been done on it, then the treatment doesn't exist.
I apologize if you thought I was attacking the medical profession, but I hope you can understand my frustration.
Littlelebowski
05-17-10, 09:15
Sounds like your mind is making the problem go away when you drink grapefruit juice.
My wife just had her gallbladder removed 10 days ago. She didn't have stones, but there was an infection of some sort and crystals that would've become stones in the future. Her doctor specifically told her to stay far away from anything fatty (like olive oil) because it would make the gallbladder work harder and increase the pain. What worked for her was stuff like Jello and dry turkey sandwiches. She ate about 5 times a day, only eating a little at a time. She only had to wait a week to have the surgery done, but the pain was a lot more tolerable with the different diet. I don't know that your doctor lied to you, but I think it might have been better to tell you what to do to make life more pleasant while you wait on your surgery.
FWIW, she was pretty miserable the first 24 hours after surgery but by the end of day 2 was off the pain meds and moving around just fine. I had her back doing the dishes and washing my clothes in no time at all. :D
Okay, I just have one more question then. When I was in for my preop consult last week, he asked me if I had any questions. I of course said yes I do. And asked him if there was any food/drink that I need to avoid until my surgery. I told him that I heard some horror stories about eating raw vegetables from some friends. And he said to disregard anything I have heard because they are all old wives tales that hold no Merritt. There is no restriction in diet you'll be just fine.
So if you are telling me that the grapefruit juice could indeed harm me, wouldn't that give my estate even more reason to sue? My wife was in the room when he told me this.
sigh....... religous stick to a low fat diet get narcotics perscription from your doc. If I was having an 8 hour attack I would bring my pj my toothbrush and keep your stomach empty and head for the ER where your surgeon operates do it early in the day. When they call him tell him you can stand it anymore. Don't tell him I told you to do this.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.