Two rifles, three optics, and a moosecock.

[jaydoc1]

Okay, I actually have a question here related to my experience at the range today but I thought this to be funny.

I'm sighting in a rifle (which I'll get to in a minute) at the Pueblo range today. The 100 meter range was reserved and I didn't really pay any attention to that fact, it's frequently reserved for club shoots, training, etc. So I just set up shop on the 200 yard range next to it.

Every so often there would be a tremendous flurry of shooting and I decided it was a training session for sure (and sounded like it was a handgun session). Well, I'm walking downrange when I suddenly hear this loud voice with an East Coast accent say something about moosecock. I knew immediately who was teaching the class. I've never taken a Pat Rogers class, but I've read enough AARs here to have picked up on that particular bit of his lingo.:D

Anyway, the real issue. I have two AR-15s, one a S&W M&P15T, and one a Charles Daly M4LED. Both 16 inch barrels. The M&P is 1:9 twist and the Daly is 1:7. Riding on the Charles Daly is an Aimpoint M4S. The M&P has been without an optic for some time. Today I mounted a Leupold Mark AR 3-9 in a Larue SPR mount and planned on shooting it in the local tactical rifle match next weekend.

A friend just purchased a used ACOG TA31F and then decided he needed the money more. I offered to take a look and see if I wanted it. I put it on the Charles Daly and it was shooting quarter-sized groups at 25 yards which opened up to 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards. Now I've had an TA01 on my M&P and it was shooting around 2 inch groups at 100 yards.

My initial impression was that it was the ACOG, but then I tried it on my M&P. 1.5-2 inch groups. Now I'm thinking the Charles Daly is the culprit so I put the Leupold on it and, sure enough, 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards.

So here's the dilemma. I've never had anything but the Aimpoint on the Daly and never shot past 50 yards much with it but I'm now very disappointed with it's accuracy at distance. I decided to put the Leupold back on the M&P since it's obviously the more accurate of the rifles so will benefit more from the magnification.

Where should I start with the Charles Daly in terms of improving the accuracy? Functionally it's a much nicer gun than the M&P. Better trigger, components, everything's tighter, etc... I don't want to run out and put a new barrel on and then find out it was something else. So how would you all trouble shoot this one?:confused:

[JSantoro]

Same ammo between the two guns, I take it? Type?

[jaydoc1]

Yes, sorry to have left that important bit of info out.

PMC Bronze 55gr FMJBT. Yes I know it's not match grade ammo, but still I wouldn't expect that significant of a difference between the two rifles at just 100 yards. At longer range I might expect the 1:7 twist of the Charles Daly to like heavier ammo better. That could be it, though, I suppose.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

That's not M193 spec stuff, a bit better bullet, correct? I didn't know that PMC made an upgraded 55gr load.

[jaydoc1]

That's not M193 spec stuff, a bit better bullet, correct? I didn't know that PMC made an upgraded 55gr load.

Just plain PMC Bronze, I mistyped Brass above. Corrected now. Don't think it's any type of upgrade. It's the stuff you find all over the net in bulk for cheap. Which is why I have so much of it and nothing else basically.

[jaydoc1]

I suppose I have two problems here, actually.

One is that I'm trying to justify buying the ACOG, but really don't have a need for it. I love it, but I also like the 3-9 I have on the rifle. I'm going to see how the ACOG does at the match next Sunday. Or how I do with it, I should say. That may swing my vote.

Problem two is that the Charles Daly is the rifle I've spent the most time and effort on getting ready for the Magpul class in September. I think it will be fine accuracy-wise because a lot of the shooting should be closer in. I've already stocked up on the PMC Bronze for the class and would hate to go buy another 2000 rounds of something heavier if that's what the rifle prefers. I guess in the long run, if the accuracy problem is ammo-based then that's much preferable over a problem with the rifle itself.

[uwe1]

I have a DDM4 that I shot for groups with different ammo (non-CHF barrel, 1x7 twist, using a 3x10 Bushnell 3200 on 10x). Just for reference, with PMC Bronze I get 3-4" groups also. With Remington .223 (green and white 50 round packs), I get 2" groups. With Hornady .223 TAP 75 gr. T1, I get 1.25-1.50" groups.

Conversely, my M&P15 shoots PMC Bronze well, similar POA/POI as other factory loads (not sure of group sizing), but shoots the Remington .223 stuff nearly 4" to the right at 100 yards. Frustrating isn't it?

[jaydoc1]

I have a DDM4 that I shot for groups with different ammo (non-CHF barrel, 1x7 twist, using a 3x10 Bushnell 3200 on 10x). Just for reference, with PMC Bronze I get 3-4" groups also. With Remington .223 (green and white 50 round packs), I get 2" groups. With Hornady .223 TAP 75 gr. T1, I get 1.25-1.50" groups.

Conversely, my M&P15 shoots well, similar POA/POI as other factory loads (not sure of group sizing), but shoots the Remington .223 stuff nearly 4" to the right at 100 yards. Frustrating isn't it?

That, I did not need to hear. Oh well. Guess I'll go buy a bunch of different ammo types.

[JSantoro]

I've already stocked up on the PMC Bronze for the class and would hate to go buy another 2000 rounds of something heavier

Heavier is what I was thinking, for a start. Every barrel has a chance of preferring one sort of ammo over another, so find out. Use what you have a an ad-hoc control group (horrible pun intended waka waka), and get 20rnds each of 3-4 different, heavier rounds. Shoot, track the results.

If your 1in7 shoots more or less the same with everything, you have some indication that it's the barrel itself, and can decide what you want to do about it, if anything. Sometimes just knowing it's consistent is enough.

If you note an improvement with a particular round, you already know what it shoots with what you already have, so you can judge whether or not what you've bought satisfies your desired threshold (minimum performance criteria), if not your desired objective (ideal performance criteria). This, in turn, allows you to maybe decide of it's cost-effective or not to invest in another ammo type.

"The lawn? Nope, sorry, honey, can't today. I'm 'conducting critical research.' Muy importante, buh-bye!" *screeching tires*

[jaydoc1]

"The lawn? Nope, sorry, honey, can't today. I'm 'conducting critical research.' Muy importante, buh-bye!" *screeching tires*

Hadn't thought of it like that. Hey maybe this isn't such a bad problem to have. :D

[JSantoro]

"I work for the gov't and I am here to help." http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4828/icontwisted.gif

[uwe1]

That, I did not need to hear. Oh well. Guess I'll go buy a bunch of different ammo types.

I wouldn't worry too much if this is for a class. I would probably use up my .223 55 gr. PMC Bronze, 55 gr. Remington, or Silver Bear 62 gr. for classes as it is lower grade stuff.

I zeroed my rifle for the Hornady 75 gr. TAP and just leave it there. I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do, but it is what I do. The non-defensive loads I shoot have a similar POI at 100 yards (different POI elevation for the 55 gr vs 75 gr. bullets).